Donegal GAA Discussion Thread

Redsoxfan · 21-04-2014 9:42am

No Christy Toye for St Michaels yesterday. Paul Durcan missing for Four Masters. Karl Lacey scored three points against Malin.

Ceist_Beag · 22-04-2014 7:49am

Odhran MacNiallais scored 1-2 from midfield against St Michaels with the two McGees also playing (Eamonn at center back). McFadden score 6 points for St Michaels and McElhinney scored the point of the match.

rosskind · 23-04-2014 7:24pm

Anyone know where I could get National Football League tables going back as far as 2005 or 06 (or more would be great)? Only need our division, although the division 1 tables even the years we weren't there would be useful too. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Redsoxfan · 23-04-2014 7:55pm

rosskind wrote: »

Anyone know where I could get National Football League tables going back as far as 2005 or 06 (or more would be great)? Only need our division, although the division 1 tables even the years we weren't there would be useful too. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

I have all our results going back over 10 years, but not the actual tables. I've attached the links to 2009-2013 from Wikipedia below. You could probably compile the tables for the missing years yourself based on Hogan Stand archives. Google doesn't seem to help much. Otherwise, contact the local jornos via Twitter, they might be able to help

2009
2010
2011
2012
2013

rosskind · 23-04-2014 11:23pm

Redsoxfan wrote: »

I have all our results going back over 10 years, but not the actual tables. I've attached the links to 2009-2013 from Wikipedia below. You could probably compile the tables for the missing years yourself based on Hogan Stand archives. Google doesn't seem to help much. Otherwise, contact the local jornos via Twitter, they might be able to help

2009
2010
2011
2012
2013

Cheers! Quick question, feel free to ignore. I see that ours was the lowest scoring NFL final in the last 10 years and was wondering do the stats back up the idea of Jim turning us into a low scoring team? (We can leave the 'boring' tag argument for another day!! :pac: )

Do you have a rough idea of our/opponents average score in the 2 or 3 years either sides of Jim coming?

Redsoxfan · 24-04-2014 12:31am

rosskind wrote: »

Cheers! Quick question, feel free to ignore. I see that ours was the lowest scoring NFL final in the last 10 years and was wondering do the stats back up the idea of Jim turning us into a low scoring team?

When you say 'our final' do you mean the game against Laois in 2011? If so, in the Division One Final in 2007, the score was Donegal 0-13; Mayo 0-10.

We started off under Jim adopting a defensive approach to make us more competitive than we had been in the recent past. That can only take you so far and so our approach changed in 2012. Our scoring average (for and against) increased in 2012, but our Ulster Semi-Final against Tyrone still finished 0-12 to 0-10. After 2013, who knows how we will play in the 2014 Championship, although the make up of our half forward line in the league would suggest we might be picking players more comfortable attacking than merely acting as auxiliary defenders.

rosskind wrote:

Do you have a rough idea of our/opponents average score in the 2 or 3 years either sides of Jim coming?

I have League scoring stats going back 10 years at this stage. For Championship, I haven't compiled averages and totals but have the raw data. The League stats at least are fairly meaningless.

If you want to tell me what this is for, I'll see if I can get the Championship numbers into totals and averages.

In 2012, we scored a little more than four points more per game (on average) than we had in 2011 and we conceded between 2 and 3 points more.

overshoot · 24-04-2014 9:34am

i remember looking through the AI winners points average last year (before the finished of the championship, i think we were the highest team since tyrone in 08.
ah found the post

overshoot wrote: »

donegal averaged 17.4 points a game in 2012
dublin averaged 15.8 in 2011
cork 17.1 in 2010
kerry 16.6 in 2009
tyrone 19 in 2008

god damn these defensive ulster teams ruining our game!

rosskind · 24-04-2014 12:53pm

Thanks for the replies guys, interesting stuff.

Basically, I saw that, as you said, our 2007 NFL final was the lowest scoring Division 1 final in a while. Then it just got me curious. You had the criticisms of Jim abandoning our attacking philosophy, but do the stats back this up? Did we score more before Jim vs with Jim? Did we regularly post big scores, relatively to the other big-ish teams in the yeasrs before Jim (2003-10 era)? Did we score significantly less than others in 2011/12/13?

Overshoot's post is exactly the sort of thing I was looking at/for. Funny how some (yes, I'm looking at you RTE pundits) will ignore stats if they don't agree with the story they want to push. Obviously it's far from definitive so I was thinking about calculating averages and stuff for us and the likes of Dublin, Cork, Kerry, Tyrone, Mayo and other contenders going back years.

To be honest, I'm in the middle of exams and I'm looking for any excuse to put off studying! I'd say I'll be able to find our league and championship scores going back a good while fairly easily when I go back home.

Redsoxfan · 24-04-2014 1:23pm

I'll post some more stuff later. But honestly, I wouldn't think too hard on this.

For example, Dublin's scoring average in 2011 was skewed by one game in particular. Our defensive record in 2013 actually looked pretty good up until the August bank holiday. And, we put up some truly dismal scores against decent opposition before Jim appeared.

rosskind · 24-04-2014 1:30pm

Yeah, the quality of teams faced and the small sample size (especially in the championship, that's why I was focusing more on the league) will definitely skew the results and they would likely be objective and open to interpretation.

It wasn't important (at all), just somewhat curious and looking to procrastinate.

K-9 · 24-04-2014 1:52pm

rosskind wrote: »

Thanks for the replies guys, interesting stuff.

Basically, I saw that, as you said, our 2007 NFL final was the lowest scoring Division 1 final in a while. Then it just got me curious. You had the criticisms of Jim abandoning our attacking philosophy, but do the stats back this up? Did we score more before Jim vs with Jim? Did we regularly post big scores, relatively to the other big-ish teams in the yeasrs before Jim (2003-10 era)? Did we score significantly less than others in 2011/12/13?

Overshoot's post is exactly the sort of thing I was looking at/for. Funny how some (yes, I'm looking at you RTE pundits) will ignore stats if they don't agree with the story they want to push. Obviously it's far from definitive so I was thinking about calculating averages and stuff for us and the likes of Dublin, Cork, Kerry, Tyrone, Mayo and other contenders going back years.

To be honest, I'm in the middle of exams and I'm looking for any excuse to put off studying! I'd say I'll be able to find our league and championship scores going back a good while fairly easily when I go back home.

In fairness the criticism largely ended in 2011 and I'd say most of us would agree they had a point. It was effective and needed to be done (a big argument against it was that we didn't need to do it, I'd say winning the AI in 2012 vindicated Jim).

There was very little criticism in 2012 and in a way we became the media darlings after the Derry match. I can't think of any pundit who was that critical in the Championship in 2012, a good few "experts" online but you'll always have that!

Nidgeweasel · 24-04-2014 2:33pm

Minors in the ulster league final on Saturday v Tyrone.

rosskind · 24-04-2014 2:50pm

Agree with everything you say K-9. Just interested what the numbers say.

Nidgeweasel · 24-04-2014 3:21pm

rosskind wrote: »

Cheers! Quick question, feel free to ignore. I see that ours was the lowest scoring NFL final in the last 10 years and was wondering do the stats back up the idea of Jim turning us into a low scoring team? (We can leave the 'boring' tag argument for another day!! :pac: )

Do you have a rough idea of our/opponents average score in the 2 or 3 years either sides of Jim coming?

I don't think our scoring has deviated that much. We used to post some decent scores and still do. Just we've become more frugal at the other end and naturally more economical. The fact we're competitive would change things too you know. Like, we hit Cork for 2-10 (iirc) the day we got pasted in Croke Park. If it was a tight game we wouldn't have had anywhere near as good a return in my opinion with the opposition more turned on and cautious.

Be interesting to see the figures.

overshoot · 24-04-2014 3:26pm

i think our haul of 3pts in the first half would sum up our genuine scoring threat that day!

Nidgeweasel · 24-04-2014 4:12pm

overshoot wrote: »

i think our haul of 3pts in the first half would sum up our genuine scoring threat that day!

Fair point! 2 of my crew went to some concert in Marley Park that day. I was giving them lectures all week about where they should be going. Got a text at half time saying "Think we made right choice". Tyrone played in the game after, was it Roscommon?

Nidgeweasel · 24-04-2014 4:14pm

Tickets for the Derry game sold out online. I had meant to get a couple this week. Surprised they're gone so soon with no hype as yet. League not finished etc. Derry doing well I suppose and the fact it's ourselves will have a good crowd but still.

Not far off now, has anyone heard anything through their clubs?

harpsman · 24-04-2014 6:52pm

I dont think theres any doubt that jims style of play is pretty defensive, pRticularly in the first half of games eg even when we got 2 18 against down in ulster final we only had 2 points after 30 mins although as has been said our scoring average was fine in '12 and we rightly went for the jugular early on against mayo in final. Our win in 12 was one of the great managerial achievements in gaa history. Im away at moment and didnt realise tkts were on sale for derry game-no season tkt this year

. So if anyone gets a spare dont forget ol harpsman

Redsoxfan · 24-04-2014 9:53pm

Just for you rosskind:

2001 (4 games) F 2-58 (64) Average 16.0; A 5-45 (60) Average 15 (Mickey Moran)
2002 (7 games) F 7-82 (103) Average 14.7; A 5-81 (96) Average 13.7 (Mickey Moran)
2003 (8 games) F 6-110 (128) Average 16.0; A 6-89 (107) Average 13.4 (Brian McEniff)
2004 (4 games) F 2-49 (55) Average 13.8; A 5-43 (58) Average 14.5 (Brian McEniff)
2005 (4 games) F 2-48 (54) Average 13.5; A 4-46 (58) Average 14.5 (Brian McEniff)
2006 (5 games) F 3-55 (64) Average 12.8; A 3-50 (59) Average 11.8 (Brian McIver)
2007 (5 games) F 5-52 (67) Average 13.4; A 7-57 (78) Average 15.6 (Brian McIver)
2008 (3 games) F 4-38 (50) Average 16.7; A 2-39 (45) Average 15 (Brian McIver)
2009 (6 games) F 6-75 (93) Average 15.5; A 4-81 (93) Average 15.5 (John Joe Doherty)
2010 (2 games) F 2-21 (27) Average 13.5; A 3-29 (38) Average 19 (John Joe Doherty)
2011 (6 games) F 7-59 (80) Average 13.3; A 1-54 (57) Average 9.5 (Jim McGuinness)
2012 (7 games) F 8-98 (122) Average 17.4; A 3-76 (85) Average 12.1 (Jim McGuinness)
2013 (5 games) F 3-53 (62) Average 12.4; A 4-57 (69) Average 13.8 (Jim McGuinness)

Nidgeweasel · 24-04-2014 10:08pm

Redsoxfan wrote: »

Just for you rosskind:

2001 (4 games) F 2-58 (64) Average 16; A 5-45 (60) Average 15
2002 (7 games) F 7-82 (103) Average 14.7; A 5-81 (96) Average 13.7
2003 (8 games) F 6-110 (128) Average 16; A 6-89 (107) Average 13.4
2004 (4 games) F 2-49 (55) Average 13.8; A 5-43 (58) Average 14.5
2005 (4 games) F 2-48 (54) Average 13.5; A 4-46 (58) Average 14.5
2006 (5 games) F 3-55 (64) Average 12.8; A 3-50 (59) Average 11.8
2007 (3 games) F 3-23 (32) Average 10.7; A 5-35 (50) Average 16.7
2008 (3 games) F 4-38 (50) Average 16.7; A 2-39 (45) Average 15
2009 (6 games) F 6-65 (83) Average 13.8; A 4-81 (93) Average 15.5
2010 (2 games) F 2-21 (27) Average 13.5; A 3-29 (38) Average 19
2011 (6 games) F 7-59 (80) Average 13.3; A 1-54 (57) Average 9.5
2012 (7 games) F 8-98 (122) Average 17.4; A 3-76 (85) Average 12.1
2013 (5 games) F 3-53 (62) Average 12.4; A 4-57 (69) Average 13.8

2003 stands out for me. We hit Tipperary for a big score in Croker. Big Eddie was outstanding that year.

Redsoxfan · 24-04-2014 10:15pm

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

2003 stands out for me. We hit Tipperary for a big score in Croker. Big Eddie was outstanding that year.

We scored 2-19 against Tipp, 3-15 against Down and 1-17 against Longford.

We scored 0-6 in our first round loss to Fermanagh.

Aidy scored 0-5 against Tipp but Devenney scored 1-4, and Roper had 1-3! Heck, even Michael Hegarty and Stephen McDerrmott scored 0-3 each.

Against Down, 3 different players scored 1-1 - Toye, Hegarty and McDerrmott.

Of course Jim McGuinness was still playing in 2003.

Nidgeweasel · 24-04-2014 10:22pm

Redsoxfan wrote: »

We scored 2-19 against Tipp, 3-15 against Down and 1-17 against Longford.

We scored 0-6 in our first round loss to Fermanagh.

Aidy scored 0-5 against Tipp but Devenney scored 1-4, and Roper had 1-3! Heck, even Michael Hegarty and Stephen McDerrmott scored 0-3 each.

Against Down, 3 different players scored 1-1 - Toye, Hegarty and McDerrmott.

Of course Jim McGuinness was still playing in 2003.

Are there highlights from anywhere that season? That's probably my favourite ever year bar the obvious.

Galway in McHale park. What an amazing day. McEniff carried off by big Ballyshannon men. The Kilcar crew making the crossbars their own and Hegarty running to join them. Hours upon Hours in a tailback which stretched the length of the west coast beeping and celebrating.

A bitterly disappointing end to the year 3 weeks after but what an experience.

Redsoxfan · 24-04-2014 10:25pm

In the here and now, Monaghan have named their team for Sunday, Colin Walshe and Darren Hughes the big names missing from last July, although Hughes is on the bench. Five changes from the team that played in O'Donnell Park as far as I can tell.

According to Jim (quoted in both the Democrat and the Donegal News), both Ryan McHugh and Paddy McBrearty will definitely start. David Walsh his only injury concern apparently. He says it's too soon for Paddy McGrath.

Paddy likely comes in for Brick. If everyone is indeed fit, it will be very interesting to see who Ryan McHugh comes in for.

Midfield too will be a big call. Neil Gallagher is surely fit enough to start at this stage, but both papers feel he will lose out to McElhinney.

Redsoxfan · 24-04-2014 10:29pm

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

Are there highlights from anywhere that season? That's probably my favourite ever year bar the obvious.

Galway in McHale park. What an amazing day. McEniff carried off by big Ballyshannon men. The Kilcar crew making the crossbars their own and Hegarty running to join them. Hours upon Hours in a tailback which stretched the length of the west coast beeping and celebrating.

A bitterly disappointing end to the year 3 weeks after but what an experience.

Didn't have a car at the time, so didn't make McHale Park (was living in Dublin). Can't recall if I was on TV, I think it might have been as I recall getting a crate of beer and watching it with some mates. Was at the first game in Croke Park alright. Sore at missing the replay, sounded like a great evening. We were easily pleased back then I guess, although Galway had won an All Ireland in 2001 so were still big guns.

Dunno if there are highlights, you may well find something from the Armagh game on YouTube.

Nidgeweasel · 24-04-2014 10:30pm

Redsoxfan wrote: »

In the here and now, Monaghan have named their team for Sunday, Colin Walshe and Darren Hughes the big names missing from last July, although Hughes is on the bench. Five changes from the team that played in O'Donnell Park as far as I can tell.

According to Jim (quoted in both the Democrat and the Donegal News), both Ryan McHugh and Paddy McBrearty will definitely start. David Walsh his only injury concern apparently. He says it's too soon for Paddy McGrath.

Paddy likely comes in for Brick. If everyone is indeed fit, it will be very interesting to see who Ryan McHugh comes in for.

Midfield too will be a big call. Neil Gallagher is surely fit enough to start at this stage, but both papers feel he will lose out to McElhinney.

Walsh played for Naomh Bríd during the weekend and was taken off injured so I doubt there'll be anything from him.

rosskind · 24-04-2014 10:57pm

Legend!!! Thanks a million!

The average for wasn't that much lower (in terms of before vs after Jim came in) but the conceded stats are quite something. One goal against in 2011 in 6 games was some going. I guess you'd have to factor in opposition and stuff (losing first round of Ulster and playing in the back door would improve your numbers) but interesting nonetheless. Again, really appreciated!! Hope it wasn't too much hassle.

Nidgeweasel · 24-04-2014 10:59pm

rosskind wrote: »

Legend!!! Thanks a million!

The average for wasn't that much lower (in terms of before vs after Jim came in) but the conceded stats are quite something. One goal against in 2011 in 6 games was some going. I guess you'd have to factor in opposition and stuff (losing first round of Ulster and playing in the back door would improve your numbers) but interesting nonetheless. Again, really appreciated!! Hope it wasn't too much hassle.

If i'm not mistaken, that was a rebound from a penalty too.

rosskind · 24-04-2014 11:04pm

That's right, 3 in 7 in 2012 wasnt bad either!

Redsoxfan · 24-04-2014 11:04pm

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

If i'm not mistaken, that was a rebound from a penalty too.

Yep, against Cavan.

harpsman · 24-04-2014 11:04pm

Redsoxfan wrote: »

We scored 2-19 against Tipp, 3-15 against Down and 1-17 against Longford.

We scored 0-6 in our first round loss to Fermanagh.

Aidy scored 0-5 against Tipp but Devenney scored 1-4, and Roper had 1-3! Heck, even Michael Hegarty and Stephen McDerrmott scored 0-3 each.

Against Down, 3 different players scored 1-1 - Toye, Hegarty and McDerrmott.

Of course Jim McGuinness was still playing in 2003.

Was at every game that year bar longford. Fermanagh performance was abysmal-didnt see an all ireland semi at that stage but draw was favourable and we built confidence as season went on. Dont forget we were level w tipp w 15 ninutes to go when the great declan browne(who gave as good a display at 14 as ive ever seen) took a catch over raymonds head and set up a sitter which was missed. We went straight down the field and dev got a great goal at other end but it could have been very different. Followed by 2 thrillers against galway and the semi against armagh which while we were a bit unlucky in the end if armagh had taken half their chances they woulda won by 15 points

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