Our Sport is Under Attack Again

Grizzly 45 · 14-08-2019 12:18am

And the ultra irony...This type of gun would still be legal in Ireland under the SI as restricted. And legal under the directive...

A German sanctions buster,just not legal as a pump action over there due to their besek laws.

Extended stock length 87 cms
Folded stock length 61 cms
Barrel length 36 cms.

So what exactly is being achived here with these bans?
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=7571564&fbclid=IwAR32KVQAgYP_NpQFE0sqIiroI0WU1laaL2VQkGjLwjS-rbIEFrHQ1-0Zdy4#img

BryanL · 14-08-2019 10:15am

Wasn't the EU to facilitate free movement of goods, services, money and people?

When did it become a legislator for each and every nation?

Grizzly 45 · 14-08-2019 10:40am

To answer that question Bryan,I's suggest you read the Ventotene decleration,and it's history, and who wrote it,then have a read of the history of the Frankfurt school of economics,and who actually thought up a common currency for Europe,their rather dubious past in Germany in the 1940s,and what price we actually did pay for the Euro being introduced by the twin power brokers in the EU. Once you have done that ,you will know more about the EU than the average TD and no doubt MEP.

yubabill · 14-08-2019 11:09pm

BryanL wrote: »

Wasn't the EU to facilitate free movement of goods, services, money and people?

When did it become a legislator for each and every nation?

Answer: we gave them the power when we passed the Lisbon referendum (that is, after they made us vote a second time on it). Lisbon was a thinly-disguised re-hash of the failed EU Constitution, which gave the EU sweeping powers over member nation states. Only Ireland and one or two other members had laws that required the treaty be put to a referendum, most other members only needed to pass it in parliament, but Lisbon could not be enacted without the agreement of all EU member states.

And this firearms directive should be an illustration for all citizens in the EU into how the institution works in reality.

An unelected and unaccountable elite (the EU Commission) has the power to formulate laws affecting 500 million people, which it expects to be rubber-stamped by the relatively new EU Parliament, which was formed to give the appearance of democracy.

Everything from vacuum cleaners to horsemeat in your burger to the appropriation of the minerals 3 metres below the land you own are the result of lobbyists and failed politicians getting together in broad daylight.

oldgit1897 · 14-08-2019 11:19pm

yubabill wrote: »

Answer: we gave them the power when we passed the Lisbon referendum (that is, after they made us vote a second time on it). Lisbon was a thinly-disguised re-hash of the failed EU Constitution, which gave the EU sweeping powers over member nation states. Only Ireland and one or two other members had laws that required the treaty be put to a referendum, most other members only needed to pass it in parliament, but Lisbon could not be enacted without the agreement of all EU member states.

And this firearms directive should be an illustration for all citizens in the EU into how the institution works in reality.

An unelected and unaccountable elite (the EU Commission) has the power to formulate laws affecting 500 million people, which it expects to be rubber-stamped by the relatively new EU Parliament, which was formed to give the appearance of democracy.

Everything from vacuum cleaners to horsemeat in your burger to the appropriation of the minerals 3 metres below the land you own are the result of lobbyists and failed politicians getting together in broad daylight.

And yet despite all you correctly say, and then the bank bailout which saddled ireland with massive debts, the Irish are the biggest supporters of the eu ! I suppose national stereotypes are sometimes right. We can see the vitriol aimed at the British over brexit. Personally i think the brits are right getting out. But the theory seems to be, yes we will be a vassel state, but we'll have loads of money, so democracy does not matter.

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”

Samuel Adams

Sparks · 14-08-2019 11:24pm

yubabill wrote: »

An unelected and unaccountable elite (the EU Commission) has the power to formulate laws affecting 500 million people, which it expects to be rubber-stamped by the relatively new EU Parliament, which was formed to give the appearance of democracy.

Jaysus Gemma, are you not tired from your day outside Google?

The EU commission is not unelected or unaccountable - the government we elect here nominates candidates and the MEPs we elect here votes to accept or reject them. That's every single bit as elected and accountable as your government (did *you* get to vote on who'd be Minister for Justice?). Now, if you want to say that our government are unelected, well, it'd be consistent at least...

And btw I'm old enough - and so are you - to remember the good old days before EU money took our De Valera theocracy and turned it into an actual country. I remember it well enough that I'd happily fight to stop us going back to that absolute hellhole of a failed state run by kinder****er priests and white slavers, thankyouverymuch.

oldgit1897 · 14-08-2019 11:46pm

Instead of Devalera theocracy, we'll have the leo theocracy, led by imported imam's and their halal and sharia laws, i suppose in the next few decades, we'll find out which is worse.

Grizzly 45 · 15-08-2019 2:09am

Sparks wrote: »

Jaysus Gemma, are you not tired from your day outside Google?

The EU commission is not unelected or unaccountable - the government we elect here nominates candidates and the MEPs we elect here votes to accept or reject them. That's every single bit as elected and accountable as your government (did *you* get to vote on who'd be Minister for Justice?). Now, if you want to say that our government are unelected, well, it'd be consistent at least...

And btw I'm old enough - and so are you - to remember the good old days before EU money took our De Valera theocracy and turned it into an actual country. I remember it well enough that I'd happily fight to stop us going back to that absolute hellhole of a failed state run by kinder****er priests and white slavers, thankyouverymuch.

I suggest you have a look at the "Triloge" part of the EU decision making process is done,and then come back to us on the accountability and democratic part??

These are unrecorded meetings,held away from the public and press and outside the entire parlimintary process held behind closed doors that can go non stop until a decision or consensus is arrived at...And of course we all know good law and decisions are made at 4AM...But dont take my word for it.Ask Marian Harkin,Dita Chernosivka and Vicky Ford about it .

Especially the last two,about the insufferable Sir Peter King and Guy Verhoffstadt throwing utter wobblers and their teddies out of their respective anti gun prams at 3AM ,because neither of these two good ladies were going to accept any sort of bullying on Kings attitude,sanctified by then Home secetary ,Theresa May and that idiot, Cameron.That a UK style gun ban of semi rifles and handguns was the "best " for the entire EU!!:mad::mad::mad:

And these are considerd as normal decision making processes of EU law making on just about any bit of legislation! Unaccountable,undocumented deals done behind closed doors in Star chambers.:mad: I know our shower are now not much better than a glorified county council in the Dail in a Vichy style govt at the beck and behest of Brussels,and that the Irish state abjugated all its power to the second occupying country of Ireland.The Vatican,and I'm older than you to know what it was really like here when this place was a genuine theoracy,where Life of Brian was on a banned list still along withPlayboy,and condoms.Yes life was **** back then too...Now it seems we are swinging to another extreme of intolerance,that of suppesssion of dissenting views,deplatforming them as well by claiming "no free speech for hate speech"Handing more and more of our privacy and civil liberties over to the watchful eys and ears of the state on local and EU level,and let ourselves be led by an unremoveable unelected alcholic form Luxembourg as head of the EU.

I fear we really have swopped the Crown for the Harp [and Crozier],and now for the stars of the EU Federal Superstate... Do we really want to be a "free people" at all??
BTW EU monies...We have paid it back with intrest.Since 1973 we got 60 billion.The EU has taken in fish out of our waters over 650 billion euros in the same time. The red Indian tribe that sold Manhattan island to the Dutch got a better deal than we have in the long term with the EU.

Grizzly 45 · 15-08-2019 2:23am

oldgit1897 wrote: »

And yet despite all you correctly say, and then the bank bailout which saddled ireland with massive debts, the Irish are the biggest supporters of the eu !

Remember the EU didnt expect us to pay this either!! It was speculated monies on a ponzi scheme of property sales.Speculators are basicaly gamblers,and this was the equivilent of them going to Monte Carlo,betting everything on 13 black,and losing it,but the house saying not to worry...Heres your money back with intrest. The country was actually on National debt in the good books,with a manageable debt.But when private bank debt was linked by the fianna failures to the national debt in one very dirty deal one night in Nov by a minister with terminal cancer ,and was completly out of his depth with his breif..Thats when the pooch was screwed! Anywhere else would have told the banks not our problem...Here the banks said."If we are going down,so are ye! Good luck looking for campaign loans for anytime ye lot want to even run a local election.There will be no intrest free loans to the party!And BTW we'll be looking at your own personal loan book!"
Problem in Ireland is.Everyone has their hands on each others dangly bits and in each others pockets.Everyone knows everyone else in the political,building,barrister,and banker clique,and they'll protect themselves first and fuk the rest of us.Until election time of course.where we are the fools and vote the crooks back in again.

yubabill · 15-08-2019 6:49am

Sparks wrote: »

Jaysus Gemma, are you not tired from your day outside Google?

The EU commission is not unelected or unaccountable - the government we elect here nominates candidates and the MEPs we elect here votes to accept or reject them. That's every single bit as elected and accountable as your government (did *you* get to vote on who'd be Minister for Justice?). Now, if you want to say that our government are unelected, well, it'd be consistent at least...

And btw I'm old enough - and so are you - to remember the good old days before EU money took our De Valera theocracy and turned it into an actual country. I remember it well enough that I'd happily fight to stop us going back to that absolute hellhole of a failed state run by kinder****er priests and white slavers, thankyouverymuch.

1.That is not a fair comparison - and you know it - because the Minister for Justice is normally elected to the Dail before receiving the nomination. We both know that a minister is technically not required to be a TD, but there have been very few nominees who were appointed this way.

JC Juncker was appointed Commission head after he resigned as Luxembourg PM following a review which found him deficient in the role the previous year.

2.I'm old enough (just) to remember life before the EEC. It was hard, sometimes oppressive but we had something - freedom. There was a palpable sense of liberty and a sense of pride which was fogged by the emerging Troubles. Neither I, nor anyone I know had experience with paedophilic clergy but I'm not denying it was widespread and it was obviously well-hidden. And I'm not denying that life was hard and hard-lived.

Many, many things are better now than back then and largely thanks to EU money, as you point out.

The turning point for me was the Maastricht Treaty: When asked on RTE why should we vote for the treaty, Taoiseach Albert Reynolds had a simple answer; "Because we'll get eight billion".

And so here we are today.

BryanL · 15-08-2019 9:14am

Sparks wrote: »

J

And btw I'm old enough - and so are you - to remember the good old days before EU money took our De Valera theocracy and turned it into an actual country. I remember it well enough that I'd happily fight to stop us going back to that absolute hellhole of a failed state run by kinder****er priests and white slavers, thankyouverymuch.

Dev died in 1975, I'm betting you were born after that? De Valera left office in 1959!!!!!!

The greatest gift Dev and the catholic church left us is the ability to lay the blame for every short coming in this country at their feet.
A bit like the compo culture it's always someone else's fault.

cavan shooter · 15-08-2019 2:24pm

This thread is starting to look like the Life of Brian Scene......"What have the Roman's ever done for us........."ðŸ˜

Fact of the matter is, there was a directive it was signed into statute law without much consultation it is going to hurt, as we are the collateral damage and I'd guess the PTB dont give a **** they will state it's for the greater good, ignore our legitimate complaint while the criminals just laugh at them.

The law only works because we the vast majority of the people respect the law and the Gardai who enforce it, its voluntary, a criminal scumbag doesn't give a **** about safe storage of ammunition in transit or the serial number on essential components, in fact he will deliberately deface the firearm. So again the legislation will do nothing to stop the criminal, the legislation is to punish the law abiding citizen, who will give out but ultimately comply. What's needed is proper policing and resources feet on the ground stopping these sh1ts.....bring back the special criminal courts and leave us alone.....rant over

Grizzly 45 · 15-08-2019 3:06pm

cavan shooter wrote: »

This thread is starting to look like the Life of Brian Scene......"What have the Roman's ever done for us........."ðŸ˜

Fact of the matter is, there was a directive it was signed into statute law without much consultation it is going to hurt, as we are the collateral damage and I'd guess the PTB dont give a **** they will state it's for the greater good, ignore our legitimate complaint while the criminals just laugh at them.

And before long it will be who were the quitters and splitters.Peoples Pouplar Front of Judea,Pouplar Peoples front of Judea,Peoples Front of Judea...Wait that s us!:pac:
They'll state its an EU directive that there is nothing they can do about it,apart from adding their own bit of gold plating.Unfortuneatly for them, they have run foul on this one by actually BANNING items. That were once legal under both Irish and EU law,and unde both sets of laws they do have to offer compensatiion.

I mean would you accept a cumpulsory purchase order on your house and lands, or "property",which like Marxism,was never acurately defined in Irish law,[but is in EU law]and not expect compensation in return?? Or your livelyhood made illegal,[IE turf cutters on now EU perserved bogs,or drift net fishermen on the Shannon estury] and not expect recompense?
OR
The DOJ could actually make this all go away,by doing two three things.
Grandfather any such existing rifles here.Which they can do under the directive.

State that any 20 round mags ,can be converted to holding not more than ten or 20 rounds respectively.

The worst is the wording of the folding stocked rifles/shotguns,as it doesnt specify either an overall length,or barrel length od less than 60 cms when folded?That needs to be clarified properly.But lets just ASSUME it is barrel length.There is nothing stopping anyone from adding a flash hider,muzzle break,etc to bting it over 60 cms and having such permantly mounted.

Is it a personal hardship on us that gundealers/smiths put their name and make and model on any of their creations,or mark gun parts when they arrive in Ireland from the USA?How many guns are there out there that are personal imports since last year,ehere this must be done?

a 20 euro ammo box and poundshop lock,sorts you out for ammo storage,and a locked compartment or even a lockable bag sorts you out for carrying your ammo to where you shoot,is hardly going to be the end of us all.Yes! I know its the principle of the thing!And I agree wholesale with you,but its not somthing you can really go to war on either,as it is very open to interpertation as to what a lockable receptible actually is.

This is really a semi auto owners problem,of a specific type,so its not unfixable without much effort and reason on both parties side.

What we should be more concerned about is.HOW it was done,and WHY was there no consultation with anyone or the organisations?

Cass · 20-08-2019 5:11pm

Wonder has everyone had a chance to take a breath on this yet?

There is still a lot of confusion for some on what these mean with incorrect information being spread about needing safes in your car, etc.

Wonder if we should put up a chart of some sort and give the salient points and what they entail? Might be hard as some of it will be interpretation, ours, and could be viewed as giving legal advice. Will ask someone to check that before we get there, but maybe we should start listing the key points and how it effects people and the other points of the SI and who exactly it will effect and in what way.

Grizzly 45 · 20-08-2019 6:04pm

Good idea...Put a disclaimer under it,that it is not legal advice and any legal points are open to interpertation.
Was on the range Sunday,and was surprised on how many lads hadn't even head of this SI and how they would be affected.

solarwinds · 20-08-2019 8:08pm

It would be a good idea alright. To be honest there is nothing in it that will affect me. But like all these things its opening a door as to god knows what down the road.

20-08-2019 9:04pm

I made a few calls, I can assure you all that there is nothing to worry about. Nothing will change.

Grizzly 45 · 20-08-2019 10:10pm

2011 wrote: »

I made a few calls, I can assure you all that there is nothing to worry about. Nothing will change.

We could interpret that either good or bad...:)
Sorry,I always get worried when someone wishes to relive me,and others of our legal property,and not offer recompense.It's generally known as theft,whether you are an individual or government doing the theiving.

Could you be a tad more specific on the who,what,when where,and how? in your few calls?:)
Otherwise this is about as informative and helpful as the current Govts statements to the public on what to do on Oct 30th this year.:(

BattleCorp · 20-08-2019 11:54pm

2011 wrote: »

I made a few calls, I can assure you all that there is nothing to worry about. Nothing will change.

Of course things will change. I'm not being smart but do you think that the law will just be ignored by the Gardai and we won't have to follow it?

Will they let me keep using my 30 round magazines? Not a chance.

Will they let the lads with fully autos converted into semi autos keep them? Not a chance.

I don't know who you phoned but unless one of them was the chief justice........take what they said with a pinch of salt.

Grizzly 45 · 21-08-2019 12:12am

TBH,I'd wonder would the average AGS know a converted semi if they saw one? It's not exactly required information when the gun was imported to state that it was military/police surplus ,way back whenever.And unless you pull the gun apart and knew exactly what you were looking for in the mechanism,it might be a lot of trouble to be worth it? Some guns like the HKs you could simply change out the trigger group pack for a civillian HK 91/93 and it is incapable of ever being converted to select fire again.Even with the full auto bolt carrier.

Cass · 21-08-2019 12:19am

2011 wrote: »

Nothing will change.

The SI would seem to disagree with that assumption.

Cass · 21-08-2019 12:21am

BattleCorp wrote: »

I don't know who you phoned but unless one of them was the chief justice........take what they said with a pinch of salt.

It could have been the Commissioner himself, it'll make no difference.

It's an EU directive and Irish law. Which means even if Charlie wanted to repeal it he is obligated, nay forced, to introduce legislation to make the directive compliant here because we don't have legislation for some, most of the issues the directive raises.

Cass · 21-08-2019 12:22am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

TBH,I'd wonder would the average AGS know a converted semi if they saw one? .

Probably not, but every three years they can reduce numbers gradually as they've done with C/F pistols.

Cass · 21-08-2019 10:12am

Ok here is what i have so far. I'll work out the legal disclaimer and intro in a while:

Importation from outside the EU or the manufacturing of firearms within the EU

All firearms falling into this category (manufactured in Ireland or imported from outside the EU after 14th September 2018) must upon import or completion be marked on all the essential components with an identifying marker. This requirement will NOT be satisfied by simply affixing the manufacturers stamp, but MUST have an identifying serial number on all essential components. The full list of what markings are required include:

(a) the name of the manufacturer or brand;
(b) the name of the State;
(c) the PULSE identification number of the manufacturer;
(d) the unique serial number of the essential component;
(e) the year of manufacture (if not part of the serial number); and
(f) the name of the model (where feasible).

An example is provided in the form of:

Example:

Alfa Firearms Limited

IRELAND 9999 001/2018 [“Precision”]

While the term "essential components" may seem somewhat vague its safe to assume it means the action, barrel, slide, upper/lower receiver, bolt, and possibly stock. It may NOT be limited to just these essential components, but certain items are exempted such as items that are affixed to a firearm but do not meet the requirement of essential component such as a scope, rail, rings, etc.

The markings must be off a minimum depth of 0.04mm and its retrospective. So if your firearm was imported or manufactured after 14th September 2018 it must comply with these regulations.

The exception to this being any item deemed as deactivated under the act.

Transport of firearm and ammunition.

The SI has amended the methods required for transporting firearms and ammunition. All ammunition, for the relevant firearm to which the person is licensed, MUST be stored in a locked receptacle while in transport and separate from the firearm for which it's used.

There are no guidelines as to what constitutes a locked receptacle, but common sense must be applied (on both sides). A zip-loc bag is NOT a locked receptacle, however on the other hand a full BS standard gun safe is also not listed nor required. The best advice is a solid receptacle such an a metal ammunition box, fitted with a locking point and lock.

The firearms themselves must be concealed from view and separate to the ammunition. So a gun slip/case will suffice and "separate to" is not listed but its safe enough to say once both firearm and ammo are not in the same receptacle/case you meet the requirements of the SI.

Under 18s

Any person under the age of 18 seeking a firearms license, as per the firearm act, must have the written permission of a parent of guardian which states the parent/guardian knows and understands the applicant is applying for a firearms license.

Restriction on "high capacity" magazines/loading devices.
As and from the commencement of this SI no person may acquire a loading device/magazine which is:

Greater than 20 rounds for a restricted handgun
Greater than 10 rounds for a centrefire, semi auto, long firearm (which means rifle or shotgun)

These devices are also prohibited, or banned, from being owned by anyone currently in possession of them as and from the date of commencement of this SI. Meaning come September 1st any person with these must dispose of them by means of exporting, selling outside of the EU or surrendering them fro destruction.

Re-categorisation of certain firearms making them banned

Category A firearms are now (and pretty much always were) prohibited. Some items have been "moved" to catergory A the most relevant of which for us is any firearm that was an automatic firearm and has been converted to semi auto is now classed as Category A, and so prohibited. Meaning any person owning one has until February 29th of 2020 to dispose of this firearm as their license will stand as revoked as and from March 1st 2020.

Grizzly 45 · 21-08-2019 11:21am

Cass wrote: »

Probably not, but every three years they can reduce numbers gradually as they've done with C/F pistols.

But how??? You'd have to pull in every S/A out there and have it technically inspected,and lets face it AGS ballistics dept ,is the primary cause of their 95% court case losses.
Its not exactly that you can say as with a handgun,its not a .22 and its a certain size.This is a technical and mechanical difference,that by altering component parts takes it in or out of that category. Thats why the EU put a grandfathering option into this for countries,as they finally figured out it was too messy and they were leaving themselves wide open to compo claims. And then what do you do with guns like the British Inch pattern SLR in all its derivatives?It was a previous military rifle,but it NEVER was built in select fire!!!

Next problem is...Where do you dispose of them outside the state? they are now prohibited CAT A firearms, and mags so no one in the EU can buy them,and you cant export them to the USA,as even there they will be classified as machine guns.So you would have to destroy them and sell them as junk "parts kits". for cents on their value.

Being coerced to hand them in without recompense,is actually setting a VERY dangerous precedent for every citizen the state.As it has violated your constitutional rights to secure properrty,and violated the EUCHR as well? Whats to say it cant come back and say that your car of a certain type must be handed in for destruction as it is unenviromentally friendly to combat climate change,because the EU said so?

No,I see this getting very messy,and I can see this involving a high court injunction and alot of money,if the state doesnt want to talk to us on this.:(

Cass · 21-08-2019 11:30am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

But how??? You'd have to pull in every S/A out there and have it technically inspected,

You are working under the impression that it's too much hassle so they won't bother. There are less than 200 S/A rifles out there. Perhaps a little more, but not that much that a visual inspection of each firearm is out of the realm o possibilities.

Plus you assume such an inspection will happen. Simply find other reasons why a person has not fulfilled their "good reason" quota and refuse the license.

Slightly pessimistic on my part, but it's not unfounded. Plus i'm not going to go into much detail here as it'll only serve to provide "ammunition" for those seeking ideas on how to make life more difficult for us.

Next problem is...Where do you dispose of them outside the state?

You basically cannot. Destruction is the only real solution.

Being coerced to hand them in without recompense,is actually setting a VERY dangerous precedent for every citizen the state.As it has violated your constitutional rights to secure properrty,and violated the EUCHR as well? Whats to say it cant come back and say that your car of a certain type must be handed in for destruction as it is unenviromentally friendly to combat climate change,because the EU said so?

I agree.

No,I see this getting very messy,and I can see this involving a high court injunction and alot of money,if the state doesnt want to talk to us on this.:(

Agree again.

Cass · 21-08-2019 1:10pm

The following is a summarisation of the recent SI 420/2019 which enacts EU directives on re-categorisation of certain firearms, prohibition of certain items (magazines and Cat A firearms), and amendment to those under 18 seeking a firearms license, and lastly the transporting of firearms and/or ammunition to and from your home or storage place of the firearms/ammunition.

==================================================================================================

Legal Disclaimer bit:

It cannot be stressed enough that this is NOT a legal definition/summary of the sections of the SI. Merely an interpretation for people to easily understand the requirements of the SI, it's effects, and a more user friendly version for the safe and practical implementation of the SI.

If you are in any doubt about any aspect of the summarisation then please feel free to asks, and if necessary dispute the interpretation.

It is also VITALLY IMPORTANT that no action be taken based on the following interpretation of the SI, but rather using the SI itself as a grounds for opposition and/or legal challenge (if anyone finds themselves in a position they feel they need to challenge this). If such a situation arises for any person(s) it is always the our advice to seek professional legal counsel on the matter.

==================================================================================================

Now onto the summarisation of the new SI. There are five main or salient points outside of the usual legal talk. They are:

Importing from outside the EU / Manufacturing of firearms within the state.
Transporting of Firearms and/or Ammunition.
Under 18s seeking a firearm(s) license
Restriction on "high capacity magazines/loading devices
Re-categorisation of Cat B firearm into Cat A group.

1). Importation from outside the EU or the manufacturing of firearms within the EU

All firearms falling into this category (manufactured in Ireland or imported from outside the EU after 14th September 2018) must upon import or completion be marked on all the essential components with an identifying marker. This requirement will NOT be satisfied by simply affixing the manufacturers stamp, but MUST have an identifying serial number on all essential components. The full list of what markings are required include:

(a) the name of the manufacturer or brand;
(b) the name of the State;
(c) the PULSE identification number of the manufacturer;
(d) the unique serial number of the essential component;
(e) the year of manufacture (if not part of the serial number); and
(f) the name of the model (where feasible).

An example is provided in the form of:

Example:

Alfa Firearms Limited

IRELAND 9999 001/2018 [“Precision”]

While the term "essential components" may seem somewhat vague its safe to assume it means the action, barrel, slide, upper/lower receiver, bolt, and possibly stock. It may NOT be limited to just these essential components, but certain items are exempted such as items that are affixed to a firearm but do not meet the requirement of essential component such as a scope, rail, rings, etc.

The markings must be off a minimum depth of 0.04mm and its retrospective. So if your firearm was imported or manufactured after 14th September 2018 it must comply with these regulations.

The exception to this being any item deemed as deactivated under the act.

2). Transport of firearm and ammunition.

The SI has amended the methods required for transporting firearms and ammunition. All ammunition, for the relevant firearm to which the person is licensed, MUST be stored in a locked receptacle while in transport and separate from the firearm for which it's used.

There are no guidelines as to what constitutes a locked receptacle, but common sense must be applied (on both sides). A zip-loc bag is NOT a locked receptacle, however on the other hand a full BS standard gun safe is also not listed nor required. The best advice is a solid receptacle such an a metal ammunition box, fitted with a locking point and lock.

The firearms themselves must be concealed from view and separate to the ammunition. So a gun slip/case will suffice and "separate to" is not listed but its safe enough to say once both firearm and ammo are not in the same receptacle/case you meet the requirements of the SI.

3). Under 18s

Any person under the age of 18 seeking a firearms license, as per the firearm act, must have the written permission of a parent of guardian which states the parent/guardian knows and understands the applicant is applying for a firearms license.

4). Restriction on "high capacity" magazines/loading devices.
As and from the commencement of this SI no person may acquire a loading device/magazine which is:

Greater than 20 rounds for a restricted handgun
Greater than 10 rounds for a centrefire, semi auto, long firearm (which means rifle or shotgun)

These devices are also prohibited, or banned, from being owned by anyone currently in possession of them as and from the date of commencement of this SI. Meaning come September 1st any person with these must dispose of them by means of exporting, selling outside of the EU or surrendering them fro destruction.

5). Re-categorisation of certain firearms making them banned

Category A firearms are now (and pretty much always were) prohibited. Some items have been "moved" to catergory A the most relevant of which for us is any firearm that was an automatic firearm and has been converted to semi auto is now classed as Category A, and so prohibited. Meaning any person owning one has until February 29th of 2020 to dispose of this firearm as their license will stand as revoked from March 1st 2020.

BattleCorp · 21-08-2019 3:54pm

The markings must be off a minimum depth of 0.04mm and its retrospective. So if your firearm was imported or manufactured after 14th September 2018 it must comply with these regulations.

So if a gun or parts come from Germany after 14th September 2018, then all is good (no need for additional markings) because they came from inside the EU? Is this correct?

Grizzly 45 · 21-08-2019 4:19pm

As the SI says...Before Sept 2018.You are good to go.

BattleCorp · 21-08-2019 4:20pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

As the SI says...Before Sept 2018.You are good to go.

I said after Sept 2018.

:D:D

Grizzly 45 · 21-08-2019 4:33pm

Cass wrote: »

You are working under the impression that it's too much hassle so they won't bother. There are less than 200 S/A rifles out there. Perhaps a little more, but not that much that a visual inspection of each firearm is out of the realm o possibilities.

Ballpark guesstimate more than 20 and less than 60 of these types of rifles/shotguns would be concerned. Stuff like yours or mine are,and the majority are exempt as they are civillian CAT B rifles from birth.

I guess Insp Greene and Sgt Cummins will be on tour again then?:) As that is who would be the only "qualified" personel who could make that judgement and have the technical knowledge to do so[hopefully!] Its nothing a FO could do and it have legal standing.

Plus you assume such an inspection will happen. Simply find other reasons why a person has not fulfilled their "good reason" quota and refuse the license.

And back to the DC dance then,as you have to justify in writing why you refused it.It's not as simple anymore for them either.

Grizzly 45 · 21-08-2019 4:35pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

I said after Sept 2018. :D:D

Yup,and you are still good to go on that aspect too.:)

Cass · 21-08-2019 4:40pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

So if a gun or parts come from Germany after 14th September 2018, then all is good (no need for additional markings) because they came from inside the EU? Is this correct?

The date of 14th September 2018 means any firearm imported into the EU or manufactured in the EU (Ireland included) from that date to present must have these markings.

If the firearm was imported or manufactured before that date, you're golden. I believe it's not necessary through grandfathering.

If your firearm was not manufactured in the EU, but imported from another EU country before OR after this date then chances are it already meets these requirements, but if for some reason it does not then you must make it compliant by having markings made on it.

I believe, and again it's an opinion, that the majority of firearms if not them all, will fulfill this requirement from "birth" as the action, receiver, barrel, slide, etc, etc. are all usually marked. Even those imported into the EU will have these markings.

As we said earlier in the thread this is a knee jerk reaction to the myth of ghost guns. Essentially a useless piece of legislation that won't tackle the criminality of those already breaking the law by buying parts and assembling a gun from said parts without a license or registration.

Cass · 21-08-2019 4:49pm

There are times i re-read my posts and realise i may make a good politician what with my talent for bull**** and long responses that don't directly answer the question.

I know Grizz answered the question, but so as to leave no stone unturned:

BattleCorp wrote: »

So if a gun or parts come from Germany after 14th September 2018, then all is good (no need for additional markings) because they came from inside the EU? Is this correct?

Correct.

Hack12 · 21-08-2019 5:32pm

Taught's on restricting semi auto CF mags to 10 rounds as done for 22LR pistols?

BattleCorp · 21-08-2019 5:37pm

Hack12 wrote: »

Taught's on restricting semi auto CF mags to 10 rounds as done for 22LR pistols?

I'm assuming you meant .22lr rifles as .22lr pistols are restricted to 5 rounds.

Actually it's a bit different than .22lr rifles. It's legal to have a .22lr magazine that holds more than 10 rounds if you have it on a restricted licence.

There's no option to hold onto the semi auto CF mags even if you have a restricted licence.

So yeah, I'm not happy about it. There was no need to ban them as the EU Directive didn't say they had to be banned. There was an option to grandfather them but our Government didn't do that and have fcuked several of us because we are stuck with mags that will be illegal to have in the next two weeks and they've offered us no compensation for them.

Apologies. Ignore what I said above. I misunderstood your quote. I interpreted restricting as in not allowing, and not as 'blocking' the mag. I'm not having a good day today. Exceptionally thick for some reason.

Scalachi · 21-08-2019 8:03pm

Local Chief Super is specifying that as long as the 15/30 round mags are restricted by RFD to permanently to only take 10 rounds, they are OK with that.

Cass · 21-08-2019 8:04pm

I believe Hack12 is talking about permanently restricting your 15, 20, 30 round mags to hold no more than 10 rounds. IOW have the mag, but permanently block it to such a degree that it can never be unblocked and function as anything other than a 10 round mag.

If so then there may be a point to the idea as the directive nor the SI strictly prohibit it. The problem (yes, another one) being that there is no standard for what constitutes a permanently blocked mag, no way to guarantee it can never be retro fitted to be able to function as a 20/30 round mag again, no gunsmith/RFD with any sort of qualification that would be accepted as a standard, and lastly its a grey area because it's not specifically addressed so if one CS allows it, but another doesn't you have a court case.

Yet another in the ever growing list of cock ups this SI is creating.

Scalachi · 21-08-2019 8:08pm

Agreed Cass.

If anyone modifies a mag to reduce the capacity, while it may be "permanent" it can only really be done a couple of way by adding or removing and then braising or welding, but not sure how really permanent it would really be to someone will tools and determination

Cass · 21-08-2019 8:14pm

The annoying part, and this came up during the pistol mag dispute which lead to SI 391/2015, is that if such a modification were deemed acceptable we [the shooting community] would still be told "sure how do we [the Gov] know you won't just undo it".

BECAUSE WE'RE LAW ABIDING YOU FECKLESS TITS.

Say what you like about the Irish but our lack of a backbone as a nation means while we bitch and moan we will bend to whatever rules and laws are placed on us.

Anyone not intending to honour a practice of blocking a mag is most likely not going to follow any other law too, and this leads us back to criminals will always get guns and more laws won't stop criminals. What have criminals got to do with this some may ask. Well the whole reason for this SI was to stop terrorists with high capacity "weapons" and Ghost guns and where better to start such an attack than on the law abiding, registered and thoroughly vetted shooting community. :rolleyes:

Cass · 21-08-2019 8:19pm

One last thing, and i mentioned this somewhere else. If such a blocking were allowed i doubt it'd be long until it's either targeted for to make it not so, or it'd be a practice carried out by only a couple of hundred.

Bear with me on this.

Anyone with a mag that is now classed as prohibited is prohibited from acquiring more. EU wide. So whatever you have you have. That is our grey bit.

The very clear bit is the SI and the EU directive states you cannot acquire them so if you were to buy one with the intent of blocking it you'd be guilty of an offence straight away. Same for the person selling them.

So you may see a sharp increase in buying in the next week or so across the EU, then a sudden and infinite cessation in the numbers being sold after that.

dc99 · 21-08-2019 8:52pm

Cass wrote: »

The date of 14th September 2018 means any firearm imported into the EU or manufactured in the EU (Ireland included) from that date to present must have these markings.

2018???? Surely this should be 2019? Can you retro implement a law of this kind?

Cass wrote: »

I believe, and again it's an opinion, that the majority of firearms if not them all, will fulfill this requirement from "birth" as the action, receiver, barrel, slide, etc, etc. are all usually marked. Even those imported into the EU will have these markings.

Pardon my ignorance, but are you saying the all legally manufactured pistols from the US manufacturers (i.e. S&W, Ruger, other US .22lr makers) are already marked correctly ?

Cass · 21-08-2019 9:00pm

dc99 wrote: »

2018???? Surely this should be 2019? Can you retro implement a law of this kind?

No its not, and stop calling me Shirley.

The directive was implemented in 2018 and its taken this long for the Irish Government to enact an SI to reflect the changes in Irish law.

Pardon my ignorance, but are you saying the all legally manufactured pistols from the US manufacturers (i.e. S&W, Ruger, other US .22lr makers) are already marked correctly ?

Any Remington, Sako, Savage, Browning, Tikka, Beretta, Hammerli, Sig, Ruger, Baikal, Blaser (can't forget the Blaser lads), etc, etc i've ever seen in a shop has had serial numbers and other identifying markers on it. You need only look to your FCA1 application and license to know this.

Does every brand or make have serial numbers/identifying markers? I don't know, haven't seen every make and model of gun. All i know is i've never been able to license a gun without a serial number, and never seen a firearm without a marker/stamp in over 30 years of shooting.

The SI and EU directive address the manufacture and importation of all firearms and essential components and its that bit, essential components that is of interest. Barrels, actions, and other essential components that are used by gunsmiths to build custom rifles is what is really being targeted, again in a bid to keep a registry and record of all parts and firearms to avoid the "ghost gun" situation.

Grizzly 45 · 21-08-2019 9:19pm

Hack12 wrote: »

Taught's on restricting semi auto CF mags to 10 rounds as done for 22LR pistols?

The QUICKEST solution to this entire problem for us and the Govt TBH.

I'll answer a few points made here on this to show how much of a hames the EU made of this,and then dumped it on EU countries to sort it out themselves.

There was an option to grandfather them but our Government didn't do that and have fcuked several of us because we are stuck with mags that will be illegal to have in the next two weeks and they've offered us no compensation for them.

Correct...And that can work to our advantage as time is pressing,in the fact we have grounds for a possible injunction,as this is confiscation without recompense. We do need to get shifting and howmany of you have already been in touch with NASRPC/NARGC on these points?

If anyone modifies a mag to reduce the capacity, while it may be "permanent" it can only really be done a couple of way by adding or removing and then braising or welding, but not sure how really permanent it would really be to someone will tools and determination

And what happens if they are Polymer?? Anyone with a 3D printer could run up a mag body in a couple of hours these days. I know some IPSC lads in Germany have this problem and have sorted it out legally by carrying a pop riviter and a cordless drill in their kit,and where it is legal to use in IPSC matches they drill out the pop rivit to use on 20 rounds,and re rivit it where it isnt.
Either the Govt trusts us to not break the law on this and grandfathers these mags and the rifles,or they dont and then are obliged to offer compensation under EUCHR article 14 and article 46 of the Constitution. Those are the only two options here...

I]QUOTE]its a grey area because it's not specifically addressed so if one CS allows it, but another doesn't you have a court case. [/QUOTE[/I

Its a NON EXISTENT area...As the legislation doesnt address it at all as an option!!!

The very clear bit is the SI and the EU directive states you cannot acquire them so if you were to buy one with the intent of blocking it you'd be guilty of an offence straight away. Same for the person selling them.

So you may see a sharp increase in buying in the next week or so across the EU, then a sudden and infinite cessation in the numbers being sold after that.

Mmm ...Not quite...There is the EU directive exemption that states.... [praphrasing it]If you shoot an internationally recognised sport,and are a member of a organised rifle club of your country,and participate regulary in a disipline that requires this high capacity,you can appy for an exemption from your national govt. IOW if you shoot IPSC ,Nordic challenge,etc,you can apply for an exemption on these mags,even here.

So there wont be any panic buying on these across the EU.As not all EU countries have impliented the directive into their law yet. Germany it's causing utter eructions with their national firearms law. As it kicked up a huge problem on things like different cals that need 20 round bodies to hold a legal ten rounds.[458 SOCOM]

Another problem. Two weeks is not enough time for anyone to search out a viable option of disposing them out of the state. We need to be onto our reps and we need to be doing this NOW!

Grizzly 45 · 21-08-2019 9:33pm

dc99 wrote: »

2018???? Surely this should be 2019? Can you retro implement a law of this kind?

Pardon my ignorance, but are you saying the all legally manufactured pistols from the US manufacturers (i.e. S&W, Ruger, other US .22lr makers) are already marked correctly ?

IF they are sold thru a wholesale dealer in Europe from the USA or other,they will be marked by the dealer and proof shot before they can be marketed to the public.
The US never had a proof house requirement and they consider the reciver/frame as the gun itself,and evrerything else an add on bit that is changeable. Hence they never had a need to mark everything pressure bearing.

This is really aimed at personal US/other imports,and proably also at stuff coming onto the market like Turkish /Paki made guns,whos quality might be abit dubious as well. IOW EU product liability,is now also being applied to Irish gunsmiths as well.

dc99 · 21-08-2019 9:33pm

Cass wrote: »

No its not, and stop calling me Shirley.

The directive was implemented in 2018 and its taken this long for the Irish Government to enact an SI to reflect the changes in Irish law.

Sorry CASS! LOL

I see where my confusion was - SI date and directive date.....

Cass wrote: »

Does every brand or make have serial numbers/identifying markers? I don't know, haven't seen every make and model of gun. All i know is i've never been able to license a gun without a serial number, and never seen a firearm without a marker/stamp in over 30 years of shooting.

The SI and EU directive address the manufacture and importation of all firearms and essential components and its that bit, essential components that is of interest. Barrels, actions, and other essential components that are used by gunsmiths to build custom rifles is what is really being targeted, again in a bid to keep a registry and record of all parts and firearms to avoid the "ghost gun" situation.

I’m used to seeing a serial number on the frame or “upper”, but I was reading from this new SI that this required multiple parts on the same firearm to have markings (like 3 or 4 parts of one unit being marked - not just the frame?)

Grizzly 45 · 21-08-2019 9:40pm

dc99 wrote: »

Sorry CASS! LOL

I see where my confusion was - SI date and directive date.....

I’m used to seeing a serial number on the frame or “upper”, but I was reading from this new SI that this required multiple parts on the same firearm to have markings (like 3 or 4 parts of one unit being marked - not just the frame?)

Barrel,Reciver, Breech,Cylinder, Frame,Upper &Lower receiver,Bolt[ What part do you mark if it is a bolt carrier group?:rolleyes:]. IOW ALL the "pressure bearing parts" of the gun,which are the critical and restricted parts in the EU.

Cass · 21-08-2019 9:41pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And what happens if they are Polymer?? Anyone with a 3D printer could run up a mag body in a couple of hours these days. I know some IPSC lads in Germany have this problem and have sorted it out legally by carrying a pop riviter and a cordless drill in their kit,and where it is legal to use in IPSC matches they drill out the pop rivit to use on 20 rounds,and re rivit it where it isnt.

Utterly irrelevant to us as we don't have the EU directive but the Irish SI which prohibits anything over 10 rounds regardless of the sport being shot.

So anyone doing this here will be breaking the law.

Either the Govt trusts us to not break the law on this and grandfathers these mags and the rifles,or they dont and then are obliged to offer compensation under EUCHR article 14 and article 46 of the Constitution. Those are the only two options here...

Based on past experiences which do you think is the more likely?

Its a NON EXISTENT area...As the legislation doesnt address it at all as an option!!!

It does address it in the form of you cannot have a loading device which is capable of holding more than 10 rounds, and then with the bit about no being able to acquire them.

What is doesn't clarify is can permanent blocking be used or is it a case of round mags only with anything else, however modified, to be banned.

This is not the first piece of legislation that has been vague, and unclear. The same issue arose for mags for unrestricted pistols, for rifle barrels that are manufactured to under 20" instead of being cut down, etc.

The problem with such vagueness is it leaves the door open for each district CS to implement their own policy which is never a good thing.

Mmm ...Not quite....

Ok that bit is my fault as i'm talking about Irish issues, not EU ones. I know the directive is EU and the mention of it cannot be helped but i'm not focused on the EU as they got it "easy" compared to us and if they didn't it still doesn't change the SI we got landed with.

So there wont be any panic buying on these across the EU.As not all EU countries have impliented the directive into their law yet.

Funny bit is they can face sanctions and possible court (the entire country) if it's not done in a timely manner.

Another problem. Two weeks is not enough time for anyone to search out a viable option of disposing them out of the state.

Do you think they care? As far as they are concerned we need only crush them or break them up and they're destroyed. You're applying shooter logic to Government thinking.

We need to be onto our reps and we need to be doing this NOW!

If two weeks is not enough time to dispose of mags what the hell do you think our reps can do in the same time period. No SI or legislation has ever been repealed or made more lenient.

Not blaming any group as everyone got caught out with this, but in 9 days, from tomorrow morning, it's go time.

Cass · 21-08-2019 9:46pm

dc99 wrote: »

I’m used to seeing a serial number on the frame or “upper”, but I was reading from this new SI that this required multiple parts on the same firearm to have markings (like 3 or 4 parts of one unit being marked - not just the frame?)

Yeeaaahhh............... I wouldn't be overly concerning myself with this. Firstly anything that is here is pretty much safe. I doubt even 0.5% of current firearms fall into the "needing markers" category if its event hat high.

Secondly if anything is imported then the onus is on the RFD to mark them before sale. Imported from outside the EU btw, not all imports.

Thirdly, the same onus of responsibility is on the gunsmith who makes a firearm.

This SI is as bad for RFDs as us. With the Sept 2018 time frame it means only guns that fall into that narrow margin and sold in the last 11 months need to be checked.

Sorry CASS! LOL

No hassle, i mean its ok, sure, whatever. I'm not bothered.
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Grizzly 45 · 21-08-2019 11:47pm

Cass wrote: »

Utterly irrelevant to us as we don't have the EU directive but the Irish SI which prohibits anything over 10 rounds regardless of the sport being shot.

SIGH!!! Ok Again...Utterely revelant,as it is an escape clause in the directive that could have been transposed into national law The directive created this sI so therefore it is absolutely revelant to this mess.

So anyone doing this here will be breaking the law.

So shooting IPSC outside the ROI and having the revelant equipment to do so is illegal??Intresting..

It does address it in the form of you cannot have a loading device which is capable of holding more than 10 rounds, and then with the bit about no being able to acquire them.

What is doesn't clarify is can permanent blocking be used or is it a case of round mags only with anything else, however modified, to be banned.

If it was an option,dont you think it would have been included??

This is not the first piece of legislation that has been vague, and unclear. The same issue arose for mags for unrestricted pistols, for rifle barrels that are manufactured to under 20" instead of being cut down, etc.

Yeah,national law,not an EU directive banning certain types of items,and guns,but leaving lots of door open,so as not to have to ban them either as the EU realised what sort of clusterfuk ,it had created with this legislation on national levels in implimentation.

The problem with such vagueness is it leaves the door open for each district CS to implement their own policy which is never a good thing.

As the law stands they have NO option to decide policy on this.Its two options. neither of them workable within the timeframe given.You now need an export liscense for those mags as well,and how fast can DOJ in Summer process possibly 500 plus individual CAT A applications to God alone knows where???

Ok that bit is my fault as i'm talking about Irish issues, not EU ones. I know the directive is EU and the mention of it cannot be helped but i'm not focused on the EU as they got it "easy" compared to us and if they didn't it still doesn't change the SI we got landed with

.

Funny bit is they can face sanctions and possible court (the entire country) if it's not done in a timely manner.

Do you really think the big boys care a toss about directives when it suits their national intrests??:rolleyes: Germany and France have broken and bent more directives in their national intrest in the last 10 years than we have had hot dinners.
Also,maybe they dont belive in rushing things and actually see who and how they will be affected so they wont get bit by legal challenges and dont have to cover their inferiority complexes about being seen as Merkels and Junkers pink socked little Euro Bitch???:rolleyes:

Do you think they care? As far as they are concerned we need only crush them or break them up and they're destroyed. You're applying shooter logic to Government thinking

.

. They can then explain in the high court,as to why they decided to confiscate ligitimate property off Irish citizens,with no compensation.Or in Europe,thats how far I'm ready to go.

If two weeks is not enough time to dispose of mags what the hell do you think our reps can do in the same time period. No SI or legislation has ever been repealed or made more lenient.

Get off their asses and take legal consultation on putting an injunction on this for a start?Or do I as a civillian have to go and do this myself,as they are all swing their dicks ...Again?? Like in 2008???:rolleyes::mad::mad They have a FCP meeting next week,so this should be the ONLY thing on the agenda from shooters sideI had to virtually breif one comittee member of NASRPC on this today as to our options.There are options and things can be done,but people need to move.

Not blaming any group as everyone got caught out with this, but in 9 days, from tomorrow morning, it's go time.

Just call me "Cassandra" in future will you??:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: We've only been rattling on about this on the "more crap on the way" thread for the last what FOUR years? I predicted enough times that this would turn and bite in the ass and we would be unprepared...Because of our indiffernce to things EU.

Hope ,for once and all our sakes our organisations have got their sht together with the lead ban,otherwise this will look like a minor hiccup....But I doubt it somehow.:rolleyes:

Now if I could only predict the euro millions numbers ...:rolleyes:

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