Changes in the GAA - super thread

gaffer91 · 24-02-2019 9:25pm

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Then teams need to get better or be one of the bad teams. Like I said, this isn't a school sports day with handouts for special little Tommy for taking part.

Maybe if they're funded to the same level that Dublin are, and enjoy some of the other advantages that Dublin do, it might be possible for them to 'get better'.

What do you propose should be done about the overfunding of Dublin compared to other counties?

OldMrBrennan83 · 24-02-2019 9:27pm

gaffer91 wrote: »

Maybe if they're funded to the same level that Dublin are, and enjoy some of the other advantages that Dublin do, it might be possible for them to 'get better'.

What do you propose should be done about the overfunding of Dublin compared to other counties?

That does need to change, yes. Doesn't mean lazy counties should sit back and wait in the hope that Dublin, or anyone else, drops back to their level.

Fann Linn · 24-02-2019 9:33pm

gaffer91 wrote: »

Maybe because there's a lot of significant differences between all those teams and Dublin?

Most unfairly, Dublin are completely overfunded compared to every other county. Both centrally and from sponsorship money.

Combine that with population advantage, playing all games at home, less need to emigrate and there's a good chance Dublin dominance will continue indefinitely, to the long term detriment of the sport.

The funding needs to be equalised first. Other things can follow on from there. Dublin will need to be split as well.

Perhaps Donegal might put together some sort of motion for all of the above for next years Congress.

The Lost Sheep · 24-02-2019 9:37pm

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Dublin has to be broken up

I would suggest 4 counties to start with

No it doesnt. You have to look at issues amongst many other counties first and spliting in 4? That just sounds like jealousy in a major way.

Jaden wrote: »

You could also Amalgamate Munster into 3 teams. Kerry, Cork and TheRest.

The Rest have only won one Munster in the last 80 years, clearly this lopsided competition is unfair and needs redress.

The Munster Semi could be Cork Vs TheRest every year, with Kerry getting a bye. We could have a half-full PUC twice a year, it would be amazing.

Or you just have divisions of league as main competition and cup as extra

threeball wrote: »

I've said before that all of the above needs to happen. There's far too many counties with no chance of winning anything and far too much money being spent. Counties could choose to stay separate up to minor so they have 2 development squads on the go but from there on they would have a single senior team. Laois/offaly. Westmeath/longford, Sligo/leitrim.

It's clear Dublin needs at least two teams also, possibly 3 within 10yrs.

It isnt clear at all.
Yes many counties who wont win the major competitions and thats why the competition structures should change. There doesnt need to be combined inter county squads at senior just provide more levels within the championship for all teams.

threeball wrote: »

There isn't enough good teams to support a competitive top level. Super 8s showed that last year.

Yes there is. Look at national league. 4 divisions of 8. Teams move up/down on meteocratic basis. Division 1 is more than competitive

gaffer91 wrote: »

Maybe because there's a lot of significant differences between all those teams and Dublin?

Most unfairly, Dublin are completely overfunded compared to every other county. Both centrally and from sponsorship money.

Combine that with population advantage, playing all games at home, less need to emigrate and there's a good chance Dublin dominance will continue indefinitely, to the long term detriment of the sport.

The funding needs to be equalised first. Other things can follow on from there. Dublin will need to be split as well.

Equalised how? And what happens if Dublin were to split. Theyd still be dominating Leinster and be winning all irelands so what good does that do for anyone?

gaffer91 · 24-02-2019 9:57pm

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

That does need to change, yes. Doesn't mean lazy counties should sit back and wait in the hope that Dublin, or anyone else, drops back to their level.

You are aware that money is an important factor in success in sports in the 21st century? I'm aware this is often shocking news to blinkered Dubs.

If the country board, management, players etc of Kildare or Meath, say, didn't put a foot wrong and every decision they took in relation to Gaelic Football was the correct one for the next few years, the chances they have of making an impact on Dublin's dominance are minuscule until all of Dublin's unfair advantages are addressed.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

No it doesnt. You have to look at issues amongst many other counties first and spliting in 4? That just sounds like jealousy in a major way.

What if they've looked at the issues affecting other counties and come to the conclusion the biggest issue is in fact Dublin?

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Equalised how? And what happens if Dublin were to split. Theyd still be dominating Leinster and be winning all irelands so what good does that do for anyone?

There's a lot of ways- for one, the massive funding bump Dublin received (from both HQ and the government of the day) from mid to late 2000s needs to be addressed and their funding reduced to a level where long term averages are the same, or close to it, for all counties.

All sponsorship funding could be centrally pooled so that it isn't just Dublin benefiting from their "partners". There are many ways to make things fairer.

Dublin didn't completely dominate Leinster, despite their historical in-built advantages, until the funding came along. I agree that they have destroyed Leinster as a competitive competition since then and will likely do the same with the All-Ireland series if he current state of affairs is allowed to continue.

I agree if Dublin were split, the individual teams would still be competitive. But no individual one would be dominant to the same extent so it would still be progress.

The Lost Sheep · 24-02-2019 11:04pm

gaffer91 wrote: »

You are aware that money is an important factor in success in sports in the 21st century? I'm aware this is often shocking news to blinkered Dubs.

If the country board, management, players etc of Kildare or Meath, say, didn't put a foot wrong and every decision they took in relation to Gaelic Football was the correct one for the next few years, the chances they have of making an impact on Dublin's dominance are minuscule until all of Dublin's unfair advantages are addressed

Money is a factor. But money doesnt win you trophies. It can help but if it was as important as some make it out then the richest sides would always be winning which is far from the case.

What if they've looked at the issues affecting other counties and come to the conclusion the biggest issue is in fact Dublin?

It isnt Dublin though. Then look at Leinster and underage competitions and lack of success for some counties.

There's a lot of ways- for one, the massive funding bump Dublin received (from both HQ and the government of the day) from mid to late 2000s needs to be addressed and their funding reduced to a level where long term averages are the same, or close to it, for all counties.

All sponsorship funding could be centrally pooled so that it isn't just Dublin benefiting from their "partners". There are many ways to make things fairer.

Dublin didn't completely dominate Leinster, despite their historical in-built advantages, until the funding came along. I agree that they have destroyed Leinster as a competitive competition since then and will likely do the same with the All-Ireland series if he current state of affairs is allowed to continue.

I agree if Dublin were split, the individual teams would still be competitive. But no individual one would be dominant to the same extent so it would still be progress.

How would you distribute sponsorship funding then if it is to be centrally pooled. We cant ever expect or should expect funding to be equal especially when you are talking about development officers etc and we have 1 county that has 20% of population of entire country and the sport is now following professional sport thinking and moving towards pro sport in some ways.

Perifect · 24-02-2019 11:12pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Money is a factor. But money doesnt win you trophies. It can help but if it was as important as some make it out then the richest sides would always be winning which is far from the case.

It isnt Dublin though. Then look at Leinster and underage competitions and lack of success for some counties.

How would you distribute sponsorship funding then if it is to be centrally pooled. We cant ever expect or should expect funding to be equal especially when you are talking about development officers etc and we have 1 county that has 20% of population of entire country and the sport is now following professional sport thinking and moving towards pro sport in some ways.

Money doesn't win you trophies?

Please tell me you're joking.

gaffer91 · 24-02-2019 11:24pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Money is a factor. But money doesnt win you trophies. It can help but if it was as important as some make it out then the richest sides would always be winning which is far from the case.

Get real. Money helps you find players and develop them to a far greater extent than you would otherwise. So yes, money does win you trophies.

I'll point out as well that Dublin's funding increase correlated with Leinster dominance and subsequent All- Ireland dominance. But you probably think that was just coincidence.

If you think it doesn't matter then I'm sure you won't mind it being withdrawn then.

Just so you're aware- I started a thread recently which was shut down for some reason. A lot of the nonsense arguments you're putting forward have already been debunked on that- you might do yourself a favour and have a read of it.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It isnt Dublin though. Then look at Leinster and underage competitions and lack of success for some counties.

It is Dublin though. Your second sentence is incoherent gibberish and I don't know what point you're trying to make.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

How would you distribute sponsorship funding then if it is to be centrally pooled. We cant ever expect or should expect funding to be equal especially when you are talking about development officers etc and we have 1 county that has 20% of population of entire country and the sport is now following professional sport thinking and moving towards pro sport in some ways.

I haven't typed out a policy document or proposal- it's just a broad outline. It's wouldn't be hard to sort out the details once the agreement is made in principle.

We can definitely expect per capita funding to be equalised. That's not an unreasonable demand at all. Also Dublin will also have to be underfunded for many years to equalise the gap in their long term funding average vs everyone elses. But that's just rectifying the unfairness that's been going on for the last 15 years or so.

The only professional outfit in the sport currently is Dublin- they're helped significantly by all the extra money.

Good loser · 24-02-2019 11:32pm

Dublin's advantages are serious in the current arrangements.
They need to be urgently addressed or Gaelic Football will go to the dogs.
I'm with gaffer on the need for changes!

Perhaps transfers could help as happened in rugby.
Or something like the draft in US football.

The Lost Sheep · 25-02-2019 12:18am

gaffer91 wrote: »

Get real. Money helps you find players and develop them to a far greater extent than you would otherwise. So yes, money does win you trophies.

I'll point out as well that Dublin's funding increase correlated with Leinster dominance and subsequent All- Ireland dominance. But you probably think that was just coincidence.

Too many people are putting the issue on Dublin and finance when its so much more than that. Other counties have dropped off considerably. Look at number of counties from Leinster in division1/2 of national league.

Just so you're aware- I started a thread recently which was shut down for some reason. A lot of the nonsense arguments you're putting forward have already been debunked on that- you might do yourself a favour and have a read of it.

Its not gibberish. Most of the normal challengers to Dublin are just not good enough.

I haven't typed out a policy document or proposal- it's just a broad outline. It's wouldn't be hard to sort out the details once the agreement is made in principle.

We can definitely expect per capita funding to be equalised. That's not an unreasonable demand at all. Also Dublin will also have to be underfunded for many years to equalise the gap in their long term funding average vs everyone elses. But that's just rectifying the unfairness that's been going on for the last 15 years or so.

The only professional outfit in the sport currently is Dublin- they're helped significantly by all the extra money.

Dublin are in no way professional though. Very hard to say they are.
Per capita funding doesnt take into account so many other factors

Good loser wrote: »

Dublin's advantages are serious in the current arrangements.
They need to be urgently addressed or Gaelic Football will go to the dogs.
I'm with gaffer on the need for changes!

Perhaps transfers could help as happened in rugby.
Or something like the draft in US football.

transfers like what in rugby? How do you open up transfer system. Draft from where? In American football they draft from colleges and players wont have ties to a team apart from supporting them. Its not the same in gaelic where players are representing counties from age of 14.

Bonniedog · 25-02-2019 10:10am

Transfers? Draft?

So the logic of that will be that hurling and football like colleges are dominated by 3/4 different outfits every year made up 90% of players from the same 3/4 counties?

Draft would make that even worse.

Some people just appear intent on destroying anything in this country that has a tradition and history.

The Zappone/Varadkar/Martin/McDonald axis of the GAA :-)

gaffer91 · 25-02-2019 12:12pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Its not gibberish. Most of the normal challengers to Dublin are just not good enough.

They're not able to challenge Dublin anymore because of the unfair advantages have. The biggest issue is the funding advantage Dublin have enjoyed for over a decade.

The unfairness has destroyed Leinster and is well on the way towards destroying the All Ireland.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Dublin are in no way professional though. Very hard to say they are.
Per capita funding doesnt take into account so many other factors

Dublin are in many ways professional. Very easy to say they are.

What factors should account for Dublin receiving more on a per capita basis than other counties exactly?

Bonniedog wrote: »

Some people just appear intent on destroying anything in this country that has a tradition and history.

I agree- Dublin fans are the worst for this with their refusal to acknowledge either A. that a funding gap exists or B. That if it does exist, that it makes no difference. It's destroying Gaelic Football.

Perifect · 25-02-2019 1:10pm

Does any Dublin supporter think that the money they have got is even a little bit unfair?

salmocab · 25-02-2019 2:25pm

Perifect wrote: »

Does any Dublin supporter think that the money they have got is even a little bit unfair?

I’ve said on these threads a few times that on the face of it it does but there needs to be a review of the actual money what it’s spent on, which codes. It has to include all counties what each gets, what it pays and in some cases who pays as there may be some counties with sponsors paying for things directly, it needs to look into how funding is spent on clubs and whether money spent on say small clubs with one team should be proportionate to a club with multiple teams. The sponsorship is a big one I see people suggest that should be pooled but sure why would the DCB bother their holes getting good deals if they lose most of it? It would drive sponsorship under the table. It needs to look at who is spending what in the county boards and what they are getting for their buck as I’m sure plenty would just flush it down the jacks. The end goal is surely to get as many kids playing and being coached well as possible.

Dublin’s dominance is well overstated if the imbalance is so big why are the Dubs not dominating underage in both codes? Why are they not beating teams out the gate in all Ireland finals? They’re better than Kerry and Mayo currently but not miles ahead why are they different? The provincial championship is a turd and it makes Dublin seem better but it’s only in comparison to some very poor teams, although Kildare look to be going the right direction in fairness.

There is a lot wrong with the GAA at the moment but it’s not the Dubs.

Mrsmum · 25-02-2019 2:45pm

Perifect wrote: »

Does any Dublin supporter think that the money they have got is even a little bit unfair?

They can't think that because then their wins become meaningless. Much better to pretend it's all a level playing field.

Beechwoodspark · 25-02-2019 2:47pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

They can't think that because then their wins become meaningless. Much better to pretend it's all a level playing field.

I’ve had hardcore dub supporters admit that they are embarrassed at how unfair and borderline meaningless the championship has become over the last few years.

The Lost Sheep · 25-02-2019 2:47pm

gaffer91 wrote: »

They're not able to challenge Dublin anymore because of the unfair advantages have. The biggest issue is the funding advantage Dublin have enjoyed for over a decade.

Biggest issue isnt simply funding.

The unfairness has destroyed Leinster and is well on the way towards destroying the All Ireland.

Dublin improved at same time some of their traditional rivals went off the boil and it isnt destroying the all ireland

Dublin are in many ways professional. Very easy to say they are.

Very easy how? Theyre as pro as any other top inter county side.

I agree- Dublin fans are the worst for this with their refusal to acknowledge either A. that a funding gap exists or B. That if it does exist, that it makes no difference. It's destroying Gaelic Football.

Im not a Dublin fan. Tipp man based in Galway. There is a lot more destroying gaelic like issues around rules, some traditional counties being much poorer than been in a long time.

gaffer91 · 25-02-2019 4:21pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Biggest issue isnt simply funding.
Dublin improved at same time some of their traditional rivals went off the boil and it isnt destroying the all ireland

Very easy how? Theyre as pro as any other top inter county side.

The biggest issue is funding. The other advantages Dublin enjoy (e.g home advantage, population), while always unfair, have existed for decades. Their current dominance coincides almost completely with their increased funding in the mid 2000s- Leinster dominance initially, followed by All Ireland dominance.

Again, most of the nonsense you're spouting has been addressed and debunked in the previous thread. I suggest you have a read.

And it is destroying the game, at inter- county level at least. Last year's All Ireland was widely slated, partly for the boring nature of the football played but also because of the dominance of Dublin. Attendances as a whole were way down last year as Dublin coasted to the All Ireland. The average attendance for Dublin's own games has also declined hugely over the last 10 years also.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Im not a Dublin fan. Tipp man based in Galway. There is a lot more destroying gaelic like issues around rules, some traditional counties being much poorer than been in a long time.

This wasn't addressed to you, I was replying to another poster. There are other problems of course, but the biggest one is Dublin's dominance. This needs to be urgently addressed.

Perifect · 25-02-2019 4:38pm

salmocab wrote: »

I’ve said on these threads a few times that on the face of it it does but there needs to be a review of the actual money what it’s spent on, which codes. It has to include all counties what each gets, what it pays and in some cases who pays as there may be some counties with sponsors paying for things directly, it needs to look into how funding is spent on clubs and whether money spent on say small clubs with one team should be proportionate to a club with multiple teams. The sponsorship is a big one I see people suggest that should be pooled but sure why would the DCB bother their holes getting good deals if they lose most of it? It would drive sponsorship under the table. It needs to look at who is spending what in the county boards and what they are getting for their buck as I’m sure plenty would just flush it down the jacks. The end goal is surely to get as many kids playing and being coached well as possible.

Dublin’s dominance is well overstated if the imbalance is so big why are the Dubs not dominating underage in both codes? Why are they not beating teams out the gate in all Ireland finals? They’re better than Kerry and Mayo currently but not miles ahead why are they different? The provincial championship is a turd and it makes Dublin seem better but it’s only in comparison to some very poor teams, although Kildare look to be going the right direction in fairness.

There is a lot wrong with the GAA at the moment but it’s not the Dubs.

But we've been told on this thread that Dublin spend 2.7 million every year on coaching. Half is paid by clubs and half by the GAA. This is a lot of money and no other county can avail of this offer as far as I'm aware? If I remember correctly, Dublin have an income of 1.5 million from sponsorship every year. I also don't think any other county has anywhere close to this?
You say Kerry and Mayo are not far behind, isn't it true that those two counties have quite a bit of financial backing also? When Donegal won and were at their best, didn't they have some investor who put a good bit of money in? What I'm saying is, apart from some exceptions, doesn't it seem that you need to have the finance available to compete at the top level?
I don't know about anyone else but I don't think this is right. There was always rumours which were most factual about managers getting paid and that sort of stuff. That was wrong but this is completely different. If it's based on your bank balance, then most counties may just forget about it now. Lot's already have. I don't think anyone is saying that the Dubs are all that's wrong with the GAA, they just are at the forefront of this financial issue. We all want the association to make money, it's important for every level of the GAA. But I think many of us are fed up with it being about business only and moving further and further away from what the GAA is supposed to be about.

salmocab · 25-02-2019 4:52pm

The money is spent on kids not on the senior i/c team where Dublin spend on a par with other counties.
This isn’t like pro sport where man city or Chelsea can afford to pay for anyone they want. It’s about giving children the best coaching, other counties may struggle on that front but as I’ve said some seem to be doing okay with it so there has to be more to it than just pure cash. It’s how you spend what you have, the championship has always been tilted toward the big guns and more so the provincial set up just look at the Munster championship and how many times just 2 counties have won it. Even if Dublin has all funding cut and went to pot as a team and crashed to div 4 it still wouldn’t make it more likely that Laois will win a Sam just that Kerry probably will.

The Lost Sheep · 25-02-2019 5:04pm

gaffer91 wrote: »

The biggest issue is funding. The other advantages Dublin enjoy (e.g home advantage, population), while always unfair, have existed for decades. Their current dominance coincides almost completely with their increased funding in the mid 2000s- Leinster dominance initially, followed by All Ireland dominance.

Again, most of the nonsense you're spouting has been addressed and debunked in the previous thread. I suggest you have a read.

And it is destroying the game, at inter- county level at least. Last year's All Ireland was widely slated, partly for the boring nature of the football played but also because of the dominance of Dublin. Attendances as a whole were way down last year as Dublin coasted to the All Ireland. The average attendance for Dublin's own games has also declined hugely over the last 10 years also.
This wasn't addressed to you, I was replying to another poster. There are other problems of course, but the biggest one is Dublin's dominance. This needs to be urgently addressed.

This income is spent on development officers etc going into schools introducing and coaching sport to kids just like the rest of the country and as Dublin has so many more people/kids than rest of the country there will be far greater spend in Dublin.
And do Dublin really spend far more on their inter county set up than elsewhere?
Dublin should be playing more games outside Croke Park but the funding whinging is getting real tiresome.

Perifect · 25-02-2019 5:11pm

salmocab wrote: »

The money is spent on kids not on the senior i/c team where Dublin spend on a par with other counties.
This isn’t like pro sport where man city or Chelsea can afford to pay for anyone they want. It’s about giving children the best coaching, other counties may struggle on that front but as I’ve said some seem to be doing okay with it so there has to be more to it than just pure cash. It’s how you spend what you have, the championship has always been tilted toward the big guns and more so the provincial set up just look at the Munster championship and how many times just 2 counties have won it. Even if Dublin has all funding cut and went to pot as a team and crashed to div 4 it still wouldn’t make it more likely that Laois will win a Sam just that Kerry probably will.

Kids become adults! Look at the incredible amount of outstanding players who have come out in the past few years alone. Fenton, Howard, Costello, Manion, Kilkenny, O'Callahan, McCaffery. These are all under 26, there are many more top players too. I don't know the ins and outs of the underage structures in Dublin but it must be seriously impressive to be producing a list of players of that standard that seems to be never ending.
I think the 2.7 million has to have played a huge part in this. And I think you made a great point, unlike soccer, no county can just go out and buy players. This makes creating your own talent the most important aspect. Again I don't know the ins and outs of the Kerry system but it looks like they have identified this and I wouldn't be surprised to see a big amount spent in this department by Kerry GAA.
I don't know what would happen if Dublin got their funding cut but does it not make more sense to fund counties who appear to have no chance of winning anything? I don't see why counties like Dublin or Kerry would get a big amount of funding when they would already be towards the top. Why would you give them the money to push further ahead instead of giving the smaller counties the money to catch up? It just makes zero sense.

gaffer91 · 25-02-2019 5:28pm

salmocab wrote: »

The money is spent on kids not on the senior i/c team where Dublin spend on a par with other counties.
This isn’t like pro sport where man city or Chelsea can afford to pay for anyone they want. It’s about giving children the best coaching, other counties may struggle on that front but as I’ve said some seem to be doing okay with it so there has to be more to it than just pure cash. It’s how you spend what you have, the championship has always been tilted toward the big guns and more so the provincial set up just look at the Munster championship and how many times just 2 counties have won it. Even if Dublin has all funding cut and went to pot as a team and crashed to div 4 it still wouldn’t make it more likely that Laois will win a Sam just that Kerry probably will.

If Dublin are being overfunded for Games Development, which they are, it leaves more of their money from sponsorship money etc to be put towards their senior teams. So yes, it does help the senior team.

I'm not sure are you aware also, but human beings tend to age, so money spent on kids 10 years ago will be helping their senior team today. Likewise, money spent today on youngsters will help in the future.

You're aware Dublin have been getting more per registered player and per head of population than every other county over the last 15 years? So it's not just "how it's being spent", they're receiving more too.

Stop trying to defend Dublin's unfair advantages.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

This income is spent on development officers etc going into schools introducing and coaching sport to kids just like the rest of the country and as Dublin has so many more people/kids than rest of the country there will be far greater spend in Dublin.
And do Dublin really spend far more on their inter county set up than elsewhere?
Dublin should be playing more games outside Croke Park but the funding whinging is getting real tiresome.

I notice you didn't try to actually address many of my points- hopefully the penny might be dropping.

Addressed the garbage about schools and children above, including the per capita spend.

The only whinging is from Dublin fans whenever their unfair advantage is pointed out.

salmocab · 25-02-2019 6:16pm

gaffer91 wrote: »

Stop trying to defend Dublin's unfair advantages.

.

Apologies I assumed people were looking for a debate, I’ll leave you to your echo chamber so.

gaffer91 · 25-02-2019 6:23pm

salmocab wrote: »

Apologies I assumed people were looking for a debate, I’ll leave you to your echo chamber so.

Thanks for conceding- I hope you've found it educational, even if wasn't necessarily enjoyable.

threeball · 25-02-2019 6:30pm

salmocab wrote: »

I’ve said on these threads a few times that on the face of it it does but there needs to be a review of the actual money what it’s spent on, which codes. It has to include all counties what each gets, what it pays and in some cases who pays as there may be some counties with sponsors paying for things directly, it needs to look into how funding is spent on clubs and whether money spent on say small clubs with one team should be proportionate to a club with multiple teams. The sponsorship is a big one I see people suggest that should be pooled but sure why would the DCB bother their holes getting good deals if they lose most of it? It would drive sponsorship under the table. It needs to look at who is spending what in the county boards and what they are getting for their buck as I’m sure plenty would just flush it down the jacks. The end goal is surely to get as many kids playing and being coached well as possible.

Dublin’s dominance is well overstated if the imbalance is so big why are the Dubs not dominating underage in both codes? Why are they not beating teams out the gate in all Ireland finals? They’re better than Kerry and Mayo currently but not miles ahead why are they different? The provincial championship is a turd and it makes Dublin seem better but it’s only in comparison to some very poor teams, although Kildare look to be going the right direction in fairness.

There is a lot wrong with the GAA at the moment but it’s not the Dubs.

You don't see the difference at underage as money doesn't make a difference at underage, its down to talent. Where you see the difference is after minor. Dublin can take two to three times as many kids into development and have the support teams around them. Some kids will leave while others just won't make it. Most counties will cough up the same % of the players except Dublin have more on day one so they now have more choice, they also have the money to put better systems and people in place. Thats why Dublin suddenly come to the fore at U21 and why they have ready made seniors walking on to the team like a lad thats had years of conditioning at 21yrs old.

On the sponsorship, if it was pooled then it would be Croke Park doing the deal and the sponsor that wanted Dublin or Cork would pay the big bucks and from there the scale would decrease. Any carrot to negotiate a good deal is removed from the DCB's hands.

gaffer91 · 25-02-2019 10:26pm

threeball wrote: »

You don't see the difference at underage as money doesn't make a difference at underage, its down to talent. Where you see the difference is after minor. Dublin can take two to three times as many kids into development and have the support teams around them. Some kids will leave while others just won't make it. Most counties will cough up the same % of the players except Dublin have more on day one so they now have more choice, they also have the money to put better systems and people in place. Thats why Dublin suddenly come to the fore at U21 and why they have ready made seniors walking on to the team like a lad thats had years of conditioning at 21yrs old.

On the sponsorship, if it was pooled then it would be Croke Park doing the deal and the sponsor that wanted Dublin or Cork would pay the big bucks and from there the scale would decrease. Any carrot to negotiate a good deal is removed from the DCB's hands.

Ah sure, money doesn't kick the ball over the bar. All those millions are a hindrance if anything.

And other teams need to step up too, it's not Dublin's fault they can't compete with the multi- million euro juggernaut.

No-one said anything about Kilkenny when they were winning the hurling, don't you know?

And Dublin only won one All Ireland between 1984 and 2010, no-one was complaining then.

Don't you know the money only goes to helping the little kids anyway? There's a lot of volunteering in the GAA in Dublin, people forget that!

I imagine any response to you will comprise of one of the above arguments.

Perifect · 27-02-2019 5:13pm

Can anyone answer this post?

Perifect wrote: »

Kids become adults! Look at the incredible amount of outstanding players who have come out in the past few years alone. Fenton, Howard, Costello, Manion, Kilkenny, O'Callahan, McCaffery. These are all under 26, there are many more top players too. I don't know the ins and outs of the underage structures in Dublin but it must be seriously impressive to be producing a list of players of that standard that seems to be never ending.
I think the 2.7 million has to have played a huge part in this. And I think you made a great point, unlike soccer, no county can just go out and buy players. This makes creating your own talent the most important aspect. Again I don't know the ins and outs of the Kerry system but it looks like they have identified this and I wouldn't be surprised to see a big amount spent in this department by Kerry GAA.
I don't know what would happen if Dublin got their funding cut but does it not make more sense to fund counties who appear to have no chance of winning anything? I don't see why counties like Dublin or Kerry would get a big amount of funding when they would already be towards the top. Why would you give them the money to push further ahead instead of giving the smaller counties the money to catch up? It just makes zero sense.

Why would you give millions of euro to counties with big resources and advantages already instead of other counties who need to catch up?

Bonniedog · 27-02-2019 5:17pm

Love to. Washing my hair :-)

Perifect · 27-02-2019 5:22pm

Bonniedog wrote: »

Love to. Washing my hair :-)

That shouldn't take long!

Bonniedog · 27-02-2019 5:25pm

Perifect wrote: »

That shouldn't take long!

Don't be beastly

blanch152 · 27-02-2019 11:42pm

Perifect wrote: »

Kids become adults! Look at the incredible amount of outstanding players who have come out in the past few years alone. Fenton, Howard, Costello, Manion, Kilkenny, O'Callahan, McCaffery. These are all under 26, there are many more top players too. I don't know the ins and outs of the underage structures in Dublin but it must be seriously impressive to be producing a list of players of that standard that seems to be never ending.
I think the 2.7 million has to have played a huge part in this. And I think you made a great point, unlike soccer, no county can just go out and buy players. This makes creating your own talent the most important aspect. Again I don't know the ins and outs of the Kerry system but it looks like they have identified this and I wouldn't be surprised to see a big amount spent in this department by Kerry GAA.
I don't know what would happen if Dublin got their funding cut but does it not make more sense to fund counties who appear to have no chance of winning anything? I don't see why counties like Dublin or Kerry would get a big amount of funding when they would already be towards the top. Why would you give them the money to push further ahead instead of giving the smaller counties the money to catch up? It just makes zero sense.

Dublin spend their money on coaching all the kids, the fat ones, the small ones, the ones with special needs, both male and female.

Kerry spend their money on hothousing the better talents, hence their success at minor.

Much prefer the Dublin approach myself. As I have said repeatedly on many threads, it all comes down to whether you see mass participation as the most important thing for our national games or whether you see success for your own county as the most important thing.

MayoAreMagic · 28-02-2019 1:57am

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I’ve had hardcore dub supporters admit that they are embarrassed at how unfair and borderline meaningless the championship has become over the last few years.

100% meaningless.
We lurch from one year to the next hoping mayo or Tyrone or kerry will topple them, as if that is the answer. The thing is, even if they do - then what? Dublin will just win another 4 all Irelands afterwards. It's pointless and it isn't sport.

I heard the analogy of lance armstrong being used. But to my mind, it is that, and then the TDF officials giving him a Harley Davison on top of it. With the obligatory message to his competitors to 'get their house in order' and 'it is up to you to catch up' as he bombs past them and they cough out his exhaust fumes. Surely if that is the case, then it was up to lance to catch up in the first place without getting all that extracurruicular help?

In 50 years people will look back on this 5 in a row and there will be an asterix beside it. It will be viewed as artificial. I feel quite badly for the actual players in the Dublin team because they are top class and they don't deserve their legacy to be tarnished in that manner. But that is just the reality if the situation they find themselves in.

Re Ewan McKenna, I find it tiresome that people attack his articles by not referencing any part of them, but rather insulting the man personally, and then go on to spew out the same rhetoric that that very same article has highlighted and utterly disproven...

EICVD · 28-02-2019 2:01am

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

100% meaningless.
We lurch from one year to the next hoping mayo or Tyrone or kerry will topple them, as if that is the answer. The thing is, even if they do - then what? Dublin will just win another 4 all Irelands afterwards. It's pointless and it isn't sport.

I heard the analogy of lance armstrong being used. But to my mind, it is that, and then the TDF officials giving him a Harley Davison on top of it. With the obligatory message to his competitors to 'get their house in order' and 'it is up to you to catch up' as he bombs past them and they cough out his exhaust fumes. Surely if that is the case, then it was up to lance to catch up in the first place without getting all that extracurruicular help?

In 50 years people will look back on this 5 in a row and there will be an asterix beside it. It will be viewed as artificial. I feel quite badly for the actual players in the Dublin team because they are top class and they don't deserve their legacy to be tarnished in that manner. But that is just the reality if the situation they find themselves in.

Re Ewan McKenna, I find it tiresome that people attack his articles by not referencing any part of them, but rather insulting the man personally, and then go on to spew out the same rhetoric that that very same article has highlighted and utterly disproven...

Replying to yourself, can anyone get more pathetic then this

EICVD · 28-02-2019 2:01am

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I’ve had hardcore dub supporters admit that they are embarrassed at how unfair and borderline meaningless the championship has become over the last few years.

No, no you haven’t

MayoAreMagic · 28-02-2019 2:06am

EICVD wrote: »

Replying to yourself, can anyone get more pathetic then this

Why is your response always an attempt to turn a discussion into a personalised slagging match? Is it to derail to discussion? To try to get the thread blocked so you don't have to address valid arguments? Or whichever comes first?

I'm not that poster, we both know that. Discuss the point please.

gaffer91 · 28-02-2019 9:02am

blanch152 wrote: »

Dublin spend their money on coaching all the kids, the fat ones, the small ones, the ones with special needs, both male and female.

Kerry spend their money on hothousing the better talents, hence their success at minor.

Much prefer the Dublin approach myself. As I have said repeatedly on many threads, it all comes down to whether you see mass participation as the most important thing for our national games or whether you see success for your own county as the most important thing.

That's not true about Kerry- they also spend their money on all kids. What evidence do you have they don't?

This is another thing Dubs trying to defend their advantages do. They pretend that things that are normal in every county e.g volunteering, competition existing from other sports, training of kids who are never going to be inter- county standard; are exclusive to Dublin and as such, justify their funding advantage. It's nonsense.

You realise mass participation across the country as a whole will be affected adversely if Dublin continue their financially doped success and people continue to lose interest?

What it comes down is whether you think it's good for the game for Dublin, who already have a half dozen other significant advantages, to be funded excessively to the detriment of every other county. If you're happy for this to continue and for people to lose interest and for them to dominate unfairly, just say that. But don't try and pretend there is an alignment between the interests of the rest of the country and those of Dublin.

threeball · 28-02-2019 10:16am

gaffer91 wrote: »

That's not true about Kerry- they also spend their money on all kids. What evidence do you have they don't?

This is another thing Dubs trying to defend their advantages do. They pretend that things that are normal in every county e.g volunteering, competition existing from other sports, training of kids who are never going to be inter- county standard; are exclusive to Dublin and as such, justify their funding advantage. It's nonsense.

You realise mass participation across the country as a whole will be affected adversely if Dublin continue their financially doped success and people continue to lose interest?

What it comes down is whether you think it's good for the game for Dublin, who already have a half dozen other significant advantages, to be funded excessively to the detriment of every other county. If you're happy for this to continue and for people to lose interest and for them to dominate unfairly, just say that. But don't try and pretend there is an alignment between the interests of the rest of the country and those of Dublin.

It will be some achievement to be 10 in a row champs of a sport that no one watches and no one cares about.

blanch152 · 28-02-2019 11:11am

gaffer91 wrote: »

That's not true about Kerry- they also spend their money on all kids. What evidence do you have they don't?

This is another thing Dubs trying to defend their advantages do. They pretend that things that are normal in every county e.g volunteering, competition existing from other sports, training of kids who are never going to be inter- county standard; are exclusive to Dublin and as such, justify their funding advantage. It's nonsense.

You realise mass participation across the country as a whole will be affected adversely if Dublin continue their financially doped success and people continue to lose interest?

What it comes down is whether you think it's good for the game for Dublin, who already have a half dozen other significant advantages, to be funded excessively to the detriment of every other county. If you're happy for this to continue and for people to lose interest and for them to dominate unfairly, just say that. But don't try and pretend there is an alignment between the interests of the rest of the country and those of Dublin.

I am fed up with posters bitter about their county's lack of success or jealous of Dublin's success coming on here trying to take money away from the mass participation of kids in our national game.

Dublin's kids need to be funded more than other counties, because there are more of them!! Simple demographics.

Yes, there was a one-off significant contribution to kick-start the process in the mid-2000s, but the latest funding allocations are much closer to the demographics. Why do you think that McKenna et al go back to 2006 and 2007 to create their graphs? Because there is no longer any great discrepancy other than the demographic one of looking after more kids.

As for Kerry, they have created these high-performance centres for kids approaching minor and have been rewarded with minor success. Dublin don't emphasise that to the same extent because the focus is on mass participation.

You see, I care most about the participation of ordinary people in our games, the county game is secondary. It doesn't matter to me whether Croke Park is full or who wins the All-Ireland, so long as the money keeps going to the grassroots as it does in Dublin. Other counties - Mayo being one example - have spent a fortune on their senior team over the last decade or so to the detriment of under-age football. Dublin are not making that mistake.

MayoAreMagic · 28-02-2019 11:27am

blanch152 wrote: »

I am fed up with posters bitter about their county's lack of success or jealous of Dublin's success coming on here trying to take money away from the mass participation of kids in our national game.

Well I for one can hand on heart say I'm not jealous of Dublin in any way. Their current situation has been artificially created by sustained financial doping, while opponents are starved of resources at the same time. This was done because, despite having all the tools to dominate the gaa, the state of the game was dire in the county.
For the powers that be to need to basically rig the competition for you to win, to get you to show a decent level of interest isn't something I'd be jealous of.
It is a record to be ashamed of truth be told.

gaffer91 · 28-02-2019 11:42am

blanch152 wrote: »

I am fed up with posters bitter about their county's lack of success or jealous of Dublin's success coming on here trying to take money away from the mass participation of kids in our national game.

And I'm fed up with people trying to pretend Dublin's success is coming on a level playing field.

Don't bother with the 'please think of the children' argument- it's honestly pathetic. What people are trying to do is ensure a level playing field so that Gaelic football doesn't continue to decline the way it has over the last few years.

blanch152 wrote: »

Dublin's kids need to be funded more than other counties, because there are more of them!! Simple demographics.

As you know, per capita funding has been consistently higher in Dublin than every other county over the last 15 years. Nothing to do with demographics.

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, there was a one-off significant contribution to kick-start the process in the mid-2000s, but the latest funding allocations are much closer to the demographics. Why do you think that McKenna et al go back to 2006 and 2007 to create their graphs? Because there is no longer any great discrepancy other than the demographic one of looking after more kids.

There was a significant contribution both from central funding from the GAA but also from the government of the day. The long term average needs to be equalised- this will mean significantly underfunding Dublin for the next few years so as to ensure things are equal.

The problem with Dublin's financial doping is that there is long term benefit, even after the level of funding has been slightly reduced. It's similar to other forms of doping really- think of a baseball player who does a couple of cycles of steroids at the start of his career and benefits for all of it.

Also, bear in mind, Dublin are getting millions more from the sponsorship partners than every other county. In an amateur organisation, with an amateur ethos (well, amateur for every county except one), there's no reason this money couldn't be shared for everyone to benefit. So they are still being financially doped even if Bertie has stopped doling them out €1 million a year just for being the Dubs.

blanch152 wrote: »

As for Kerry, they have created these high-performance centres for kids approaching minor and have been rewarded with minor success. Dublin don't emphasise that to the same extent because the focus is on mass participation.

.

There are development squads etc in Kerry, like there are in every other county. This is done in conjunction with training of less talented children, not entirely at their expense, again like every other county.

Dublin are not unique- you would like to believe they are as it suits your argument but it's not the case.

blanch152 wrote: »

You see, I care most about the participation of ordinary people in our games, the county game is secondary. It doesn't matter to me whether Croke Park is full or who wins the All-Ireland, so long as the money keeps going to the grassroots as it does in Dublin. Other counties - Mayo being one example - have spent a fortune on their senior team over the last decade or so to the detriment of under-age football. Dublin are not making that mistake.

You don't care most about the participation of ordinary people- you care most about Dublin winning the All Ireland and Dublin GAA benefiting at the expense of every other county. If you didn't care about this, you'd be in favour of funding being equalised. Dublin's dominance is harming the game, massively.

Dublin have spent a fortune on both their senior and their underage teams. This has been enabled by the millions more they get than every other county.

It's lucky you don't care about Croke Park being full though- it soon won't be if Dublin continue the way they are.

To be honest, it's probably past the point of no return now anyway. Dublin have been so successfully financially doped, and lobby so successfully against any attempts at equality, it will probably never be a level playing field again.

Perifect · 06-03-2019 11:01am

Even Philly McMahon admits that Dublin have unfair advantages:

"And that needs to be the message. I don’t think you could go to any top team in this country and say to them, Which would you want to win — an All-Ireland that changes the rules, that complains about money and this, this, and this, or beat Dublin with all of these things?"

Why should any county have to beat Dublin with the extra money and home games and so on? Should Philly not be asking, which would he prefer, to be winning All Ireland's like it is or to be winning them fairly?

EICVD · 06-03-2019 11:19am

Perifect wrote: »

Even Philly McMahon admits that Dublin have unfair advantages:

"And that needs to be the message. I don’t think you could go to any top team in this country and say to them, Which would you want to win — an All-Ireland that changes the rules, that complains about money and this, this, and this, or beat Dublin with all of these things?"

Why should any county have to beat Dublin with the extra money and home games and so on? Should Philly not be asking, which would he prefer, to be winning All Ireland's like it is or to be winning them fairly?

Hahaha, we are winning them fairly. Also McMahons point was stop whinging & just come beat us

Perifect · 06-03-2019 11:30am

EICVD wrote: »

Hahaha, we are winning them fairly. Also McMahons point was stop whinging & just come beat us

At this stage, it's commonly accepted that Dublin have not been winning fairly. The facts about the level of funding Dublin received has emerged and it's scandalous. My question stands, why don't Dublin players want to win All Ireland's fairly instead of whinging about other counties wanting fair play?

MayoAreMagic · 06-03-2019 11:31am

EICVD wrote: »

Hahaha, we are winning them fairly. Also McMahons point was stop whinging & just come beat us

So basically, whinge and moan until you get financially doped.
Then tell everyone to just come and beat you...

Well that is fair...

Mcmahon is just worried about his weakness in the air getting exposed. So he went whinging in the press, ironically, about whinging.

Bonniedog · 06-03-2019 11:46am

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

So basically, whinge and moan until you get financially doped.
Then tell everyone to just come and beat you...

Well that is fair...

Mcmahon is just worried about his weakness in the air getting exposed. So he went whinging in the press, ironically, about whinging.

I don't think it was Philly who had the "wind" problems in certain games

MayoAreMagic · 06-03-2019 12:05pm

Bonniedog wrote: »

I don't think it was Philly who had the "wind" problems in certain games

So you have given up on the point at hand completely and just played the man.

Probably as close to an admission as we will get...

Jaden · 06-03-2019 12:18pm

Perifect wrote: »

At this stage, it's commonly accepted that Dublin have not been winning fairly.

You have made an assertion. Do you have data to back this assertion up?

Perifect · 06-03-2019 4:05pm

Jaden wrote: »

You have made an assertion. Do you have data to back this assertion up?

That it's commonly accepted that Dublin have not been winning fairly? Have you read any newspapers of late? Have you listened to any sports radio? Even Philly McMahon admits it! And he was complaining about all the people saying they have won things unfairly. On boards.ie, a thread got closed down because of the view that Dublin have been winning unfairly is too common. So yes, it's commonly accepted that Dublin have not been winning fairly.
So back to my question; why don't Dublin players want to win All Ireland's fairly instead of whinging about other counties wanting fair play?

Bonniedog · 06-03-2019 6:11pm

How have they not been winning fairly?

Mayo senior footballers have a bigger budget, or have had in a number of recent years. Is that unfair to Leitrim or Sligo?

Or are you suggesting that Dublin are cheating by bribing officials, being paid and so on?

spit it out old chap.

Changes in the GAA - super thread

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