Changes in the GAA - super thread

Bonniedog

All goalkeepers have bad moments, and not always their own doing.

I felt sorry for Morgan in last year's final where he just seemed to lose his nerve for three kick outs in a row, but apart from the one he put out over the line, the other two were result of aggression from Dublin players, and some of his own going missing. Indeed that was factor in the one that was closer to Mickey Harte than any Tyrone man on the field, none of whom were putting their hand up for it.

It is high pressure position so not surprising that lads have the odd bad moment.

Jaden

threeball wrote: »

Yes, I take your point, gales could be an issue but there should be enough common sense that if a lad boots the ball as hard he can on a windy day and it drops short of 45 it wouldn't be pulled up

That would been fair, but it's open to interpretation.

The line of reasoning here is good. Let's see if we can agree a problem statement that we can work to resolving.

What we are trying to do, is prevent the ball being played all the way back, often to the keeper in a game of keepy-ball. While sometimes exciting in itself, it does not promote attacking play, and can be a crutch used to close out games.

The current suggestion focuses on the keeper receiving the ball. Which, if a rule is introduced that says he has to kick beyond the 45, teams will simply stop bring him into play - it will not stop "keepy-ball" per se.

Let's park *who* gets the ball for a moment. What if the rule was that if the ball is played back behind the 20m line, that it must be played forward beyond the 45m line. Failure to do so is a free from where the ball was played from. Does that make sense?

threeball

Jaden wrote: »

threeball wrote: »

Yes, I take your point, gales could be an issue but there should be enough common sense that if a lad boots the ball as hard he can on a windy day and it drops short of 45 it wouldn't be pulled up

That would been fair, but it's open to interpretation.

The line of reasoning here is good. Let's see if we can agree a problem statement that we can work to resolving.

What we are trying to do, is prevent the ball being played all the way back, often to the keeper in a game of keepy-ball. While sometimes exciting in itself, it does not promote attacking play, and can be a crutch used to close out games.

The current suggestion focuses on the keeper receiving the ball. Which, if a rule is introduced that says he has to kick beyond the 45, teams will simply stop bring him into play - it will not stop "keepy-ball" per se.

Let's park *who* gets the ball for a moment. What if the rule was that if the ball is played back behind the 20m line, that it must be played forward beyond the 45m line. Failure to do so is a free from where the ball was played from. Does that make sense?

Yes that could work but it might punish good defending where a back wins the ball in the corner just outside the 21. A team mate circles round the back to support but upon receiving the ball he only has the option to run it out or kick it past the 45. He can't for example hit a team mate on the far wing but inside the 45.

My idea behind the goalie was to prevent them becoming the extra man who has no dedicated marker and therefore is used as a safety valve. Only making the goal keeper subject to the rule should encourage teams to stay pushed up and help the team head back towards a more traditional game where marking and pressing yields real results.

doc_17

If it’s competitive kick outs people want then why not push for a proper set play for each of them? Kinda like for the throw in. Everyone must have a man. It’s probably the only way to ensure it happens. It’s also stupid.

Dots1982

Wrote this about the Dublin and development funding. Would like to give it’s own topic but think boards.ie want all discussion of that issue on this.

Anyway just tries to answer the reason of why The GAA has invested so heavily in Dublin in a way that hasn’t really been tried or understood before.

It and the rest of my writing available here...
https://veryintobloggingveryintonewmedia.wordpress.com/2019/07/26/why-the-gaa-invest-so-much-in-dublin-and-why-extending-games-development-funding-is-unlikely-to-bridge-gap-to-dubs/


Over the past year the focus on Croke Park’s funding of Dublin’s games development project has ballooned into the biggest issue facing the association’s hierarchy. It’s begun to get ugly for the GAA’s president John Horan who, as a Dublin native, is facing accusations that he’s acting in Dublin’s interests above the GAA’s. Horan and other members of the hierarchy haven’t helped themselves by some of their claims when they talk to the media. The claims made last year by Tom Ryan (Director General of the GAA) that funding to Dublin was being reduced and recently by Horan that Dublin didn’t receive money from the Leinster provincial council were false when they said it or proved to be false almost immediately after.

The latest claim by John Horan on the funding figures is that he is going “to get someone to just have a look at it and analyse it”, all the while persistently defending the dispersal of the funds. This approach is going to further antagonize the increasing numbers who believe Dublin’s success is linked to the financial assistance it received.

As Dublin go for the five in the row, their dominance is being acclaimed but the dropping attendances at games suggest the reality that this Dublin team are close to unbeatable. This is leading people to see games against them as a write-off rather than a huge challenge. Dropping attendances means dropping revenue for Croke Park. So the question has to be asked; if the GAA’s revenue is dropping in the Dublin dominated era why is the hierarchy so protective of the funding remaining in place for Dublin?

The reasoning the GAA provide is to grow the game in Ireland’s largest urban centre by going into schools and clubs and provide them with basic coaching that gives the GAA a head-start on other rival sports in the heart’s and mind’s of Dublin’s pre-teens. Gaels outside Dublin with an axe to grind say these coaches allow Dublin to provide professional coaching to their most promising players. I’m not sure I buy either the GAA’s reasoning or those outside Dublin with complaints about the funding dichotomy.

The reason or at least my reasoning for the imbalanced funding is the level of return Dublin clubs get for the level of investment in GDO’s (Games Development Officers). To explain, lets look at the economics of a Dublin superclub. John Horan’s club Na Fianna to be exact. Na Fianna claim they have 4000 members and 400 of them are nursery members. This means they are aged between 5-7 years. Their parents pay 85 euro as the annual Nursery membership fee. So the maths on that is a total of 34000 euro is coming into Na Fianna’s coffers annually. A GDO’s salary would be a bit more than that i believe. Maybe coming in at under 40000 Euro. So Na Fianna are almost covering the entire cost of a GDO from the money coming in from 10% of their membership. That 10% of the membership only pay 85 euro in fees while the juveniles and adult playing members pay 155 euro and 265 euro respectively. And of course Na Fianna don’t have to pay the entire salary of the GDO. Na Fianna only cover half. Croke Park covers the other half.

The truth of the games development question I posed about why the GAA invest so much in Dublin is that the return is so lucrative. There are so many youngsters in Dublin clubs that can generate so much in income to Dublin GAA. It’s basically it’s own industry where the outlay for a GDO is covered many times over by the membership fees of Nursery and Juvenile members. The parents of these kids are used as cash machines to bankroll the club’s plans and expansions. That is why the GAA continued to pump money in to the Games Development funds for Dublin. Because the “resources” there in terms of children available to coach are so much greater than other parts of the country and that equals “Bank”. Other factors work in their favour such as they have a small network of clubs servicing huge populations as opposed to the situation in most of the rest of the country were there are more clubs for small clusters of populations.

The GAA won’t be forthcoming about this reasoning as the above paragraph isn’t very idealistic in a sporting sense and if it were known it wouldn’t appease the critics. However it does make sense from a purely economic viewpoint. The GAA for now have responded to calls for more equitable funding with the “East Leinster project”. This will invest 500,000 euro annually in much the same structures that were put in place in Dublin for the last fifteen years. It will focus on four counties; Kildare, Meath, Wicklow and Louth. This is been talked about as a way to bridge the gap between Dublin and the rest. Really I would imagine the aim is pretty much the same as in Dublin. It will focus on the big commuter belts with large populations and get these coaches to pay for themselves by the level of income they bring in from the Parents’ membership fees. It is less about developing players as about developing income sources. It is also worth mentioning that this isn’t a huge investment being made. 500k a year across 4 counties will pay for an extra 12 coaches (the money from the clubs will add a further 12) for as long as the project lasts. If the money rolls in like in Dublin perhaps the GAA will consider extending it. However the project has been knocked back in Newbridge where they are happy to proceed with their own structure of coaching with volunteers instead of professional coaches. 500,000 euro is not much when I’ve shown the kind of money that gets brought in from just one nursery of a Dublin Super club. There are at least another ten Dublin superclubs with memberships and revenue streams similar to Na Fianna.

Moving on, there is a an upshot from the above writing that I wish to dissect.

It’s now becoming almost fashionable to cite the development funds as the reason Dublin are so dominant/unbeatable. This, to me at least, is a huge misread of the development funds and their value and purpose. Of course they have a value all the way to the senior team but gradually there is a movement to say that these funds are the reason Dublin are dominating. I think this should be debunked as I don’t think a transposition of the funds to other Leinster counties would be that instrumental in closing the gap.

Up to 1990, Dublin were the second most successful county in Ireland at Gaelic Football. The second most successful by far. Between 1990 and 2016 Dublin’s population increased by 300,000 people according to national statistics. 300,000 is far more than, for instance, Meath’s and Kildare’s entire present population. A lot is made of Kildare’s and Meath’s population explosion in the last twenty years but when the entire populations of these counties is outstripped by just the population increase in that period in Dublin…well is it any wonder Dublin’s have a far better team than Kildare and Meath?

Population is often disregarded as not a creditable reason for Dublin’s current superiority but this again is a complete misread in my opinion. It is dismissed because Dublin always had the population advantage. It doesn’t factor in the statistic in the paragraph above showing that despite the population explosion in Meath and Kildare that Dublin added significantly more people. Crucially even that doesn’t factor in the socio-economic changes in the composition of Dublin’s population of the last thirty years. Of rural people, many of them sons and daughters of farmers, attending third level education there, taking jobs there, moving into the suburbs there. Bringing their traditions of Gaelic games with them. The shift from Gaelic Football being viewed as a “bogger” sport to being seen as part of the mainstream in the capital.

So what is the bigger factor in Dublin dominance? This enormous socio-economic shift and huge increase in population in a county that was already hugely successful or Dublin having seventy professional coaches going into clubs and schools since 2005? For me it’s a complete no contest.

The East Leinster project will generate revenue for clubs in the area in the large population belts just like it did in Dublin. But don’t expect it to magically close the gap with Dublin. This will be a far more difficult problem to resolve given the huge differentials I’ve highlighted in population.

Going back to the original point the idea that the professional coaches are the factor that created Dublin as the GAA’s Death Star is a far fetched one. It has been missed up to now the real purpose of these coaches is the enormous income they generate. I don’t think the Dublin project was ever even about creating adult club players. If it had been it would have really focused on starting new clubs as well as just coaching within existing clubs. There are so many club juvenile and nursery players going through the Dublin system that there probably wouldn’t be room for 20% of them were they to try to be senior players in the existing club network in the capital.

The Dublin project was about monetizing the incredible numbers of Dublin’s youth through the county’s underage club structure and using that money to make Dublin the base-rock of the GAA financially. The 18+ million euro in development funds Dublin have received since 2005 is definitely an eye bulging figure but it is largely a “McGuffin” for understanding why Dublin football is dominating. That dominance requires more subtle analysis of population shifts to Dublin’s suburbs back through the 1990’s and further.

bruschi

Good piece well structured Dots. Poses lots of queries and thoughts. I've often said that the super clubs in Dublin itself could be an issue long term within the county. Very hard for the smaller Dublin clubs compete.

One point though on the East Leinster project, yes, it may help generate revenue in larger commuter belt clubs, but for an awful lot of them, it wont do anything for revenue. For example, my own club has a nursery where we get pretty much all kids in the parish participate. But with Na Fiannas revenue from Nursery bringing in €34,000, we'd be lucky to get €200 or €300 for nursery membership. We dont charge as much and we dont have as much. It would take our entire juvenile club 11 years to pull in €34k. Dublin and other counties work off completely different scales.

Similarly, clubs in Dublin and outside of it work off even more scales. Clubs being able to offer bursaries to college, dedicated video analysis rooms etc. Brilliant stuff, but just shows the huge gulf in revenue and incentives available. There is no magic stick other counties have to just magically make GPO's appear or divert revenue. Revenue isnt an issue to Dublin or the super clubs in Dublin. Revenue doesnt make a player, but it helps pay the wages of full time coaches and the best of playing equipment. And that makes a difference.

D9Male

Numbers talk. Look at league tables in Div1 hurling and football for U12 to U16. Almost all the leagues are dominated by big clubs like Ballyboden, Kilmacud, Lucan, Castleknock, Na Fianna.

Every now and then a smaller club might get a good crop. But ultimately, if there's only 30 U14s in Thomas Davis, it's tough for the First XV to compete against the First XV of Na Fianna with 60 boys at U14.

The same logic applies at intercounty level.

threeball

It's clear there's more going on than just generating revenue from clubs. Whilst population is a factor it has always been so and there have been big clubs for decades.

Anyone with eyes can see the physical gulf between the Dublin u20s and other teams in that competition. Again a team that has come from nowhere but can't physically overpower and out run other teams in the competition. There's as much resources going in to that level as there is at senior and that's why you're seeing that huge step up and why there is no issue of bedding in when they are moved up to senior. No other county can afford to do that.

Bonniedog

One of differences between Dublin under 20s and those in other counties is the high standard of club football which those lads are playing at senior from when they are out of minor.

Even look at the underdogs game last January where there were players none of whom are part of whatever intensive physical regime the county lads have, and they blew a team of club seniors from elsewhere off the pitch.

Standard of club hurling and football is huge factor in why the same counties dominate year after year.

Dots1982

bruschi wrote: »

Good piece well structured Dots. Poses lots of queries and thoughts. I've often said that the super clubs in Dublin itself could be an issue long term within the county. Very hard for the smaller Dublin clubs compete.

One point though on the East Leinster project, yes, it may help generate revenue in larger commuter belt clubs, but for an awful lot of them, it wont do anything for revenue. For example, my own club has a nursery where we get pretty much all kids in the parish participate. But with Na Fiannas revenue from Nursery bringing in €34,000, we'd be lucky to get €200 or €300 for nursery membership. We dont charge as much and we dont have as much. It would take our entire juvenile club 11 years to pull in €34k. Dublin and other counties work off completely different scales.

Similarly, clubs in Dublin and outside of it work off even more scales. Clubs being able to offer bursaries to college, dedicated video analysis rooms etc. Brilliant stuff, but just shows the huge gulf in revenue and incentives available. There is no magic stick other counties have to just magically make GPO's appear or divert revenue. Revenue isnt an issue to Dublin or the super clubs in Dublin. Revenue doesnt make a player, but it helps pay the wages of full time coaches and the best of playing equipment. And that makes a difference.

But your club is a small club I take it? In a fairly unpopulated area?

Dots1982

Bonniedog wrote: »

One of differences between Dublin under 20s and those in other counties is the high standard of club football which those lads are playing at senior from when they are out of minor.

Even look at the underdogs game last January where there were players none of whom are part of whatever intensive physical regime the county lads have, and they blew a team of club seniors from elsewhere off the pitch.

Standard of club hurling and football is huge factor in why the same counties dominate year after year.

Wouldn’t take any conclusions from the underdogs. The underdogs was a team the all ireland intermediate club champions bet fairly easily. Asking them to play a Dublin C outfit was a terrible terrible mismatch.

StupidLikeAFox

Dots1982 wrote: »

So what is the bigger factor in Dublin dominance? This enormous socio-economic shift and huge increase in population in a county that was already hugely successful or Dublin having seventy professional coaches going into clubs and schools since 2005? For me it’s a complete no contest.

Good article. But it's worth pointing out that the GDOs are doing a good bit more than just going out to schools, for the Dublin clubs they are also responsible for developing players and coaches within the club at all levels

Dots1982

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Good article. But it's worth pointing out that the GDOs are doing a good bit more than just going out to schools, for the Dublin clubs they are also responsible for developing players and coaches within the club at all levels

Have you seen their sessions in action? Are the sessions they put on very valuable do you think?

StupidLikeAFox

I'm not from Dublin so no, but it is their full time job in fairness so I'd imagine they are trained to pretty decent standard. They are bound to be significantly better than what's available to the average non-dublin club depending on part time volunteers.

threeball

Bonniedog wrote: »

One of differences between Dublin under 20s and those in other counties is the high standard of club football which those lads are playing at senior from when they are out of minor.

Even look at the underdogs game last January where there were players none of whom are part of whatever intensive physical regime the county lads have, and they blew a team of club seniors from elsewhere off the pitch.

Standard of club hurling and football is huge factor in why the same counties dominate year after year.

Are you trying to tell me Galway football isn't a good standard yet the 2 times all Ireland champions often get their toughest games in the Galway championship. Mountbellew would put it up to any club in Dublin as would 3 or 4 more. Still didnt stop the Galway team look physically like minors vs seniors last week. A team which beat a very good Mayo team fairly easily. There's plenty of minors and u20s playing in very good club championships. If all these Dublin clubs are so good why don't we see any come business end of the championship. Last year's Dublin champions were beaten by the Mullinaneactha, who were hammered by Crokes, who were hammered by Corofin.

Fann Linn

threeball wrote: »

Are you trying to tell me Galway football isn't a good standard yet the 2 times all Ireland champions often get their toughest games in the Galway championship. Mountbellew would put it up to any club in Dublin as would 3 or 4 more. Still didnt stop the Galway team look physically like minors vs seniors last week. A team which beat a very good Mayo team fairly easily. There's plenty of minors and u20s playing in very good club championships. If all these Dublin clubs are so good why don't we see any come business end of the championship. Last year's Dublin champions were beaten by the Mullinaneactha, who were hammered by Crokes, who were hammered by Corofin.

Just goes to show its not always about money or population. Right?

Bonniedog

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

I'm not from Dublin so no, but it is their full time job in fairness so I'd imagine they are trained to pretty decent standard. They are bound to be significantly better than what's available to the average non-dublin club depending on part time volunteers.

You are not from Dublin or in Dublin but you feel qualified to comment on how our clubs operate

I'm off to pen a memo for the Mumbai cricket league....

threeball

Fann Linn wrote: »

threeball wrote: »

Are you trying to tell me Galway football isn't a good standard yet the 2 times all Ireland champions often get their toughest games in the Galway championship. Mountbellew would put it up to any club in Dublin as would 3 or 4 more. Still didnt stop the Galway team look physically like minors vs seniors last week. A team which beat a very good Mayo team fairly easily. There's plenty of minors and u20s playing in very good club championships. If all these Dublin clubs are so good why don't we see any come business end of the championship. Last year's Dublin champions were beaten by the Mullinaneactha, who were hammered by Crokes, who were hammered by Corofin.

Just goes to show its not always about money or population. Right?

Yes your right in Dublins case it's about money.

MayoAreMagic

Fann Linn wrote: »

Just goes to show its not always about money or population. Right?

Depends on the figures at play. Club teams choose from a relatively low base number of players. Obviously a club wouldnt be as professionally run.There arent dealing in the sort of money county Dublin would be either. Because of these things the effects are not as pronounced.
The difference comes when the scale of the thing is increased in the manner that it has. When the numbers go from around 5-7000 of an average club base, to 1.3 million obviously things are going to be different. A critical mass has been surpassed which results in Dublin operating out of kilter with their opponents. Their troughs in form due to a transition of their team doesnt really dip due to the number of high quality young players coming though. In reality Dublin are actually in transition now. The result is a bench which is ever so slightly weaker. However their starting 15 is in fact stronger than before.

However, I dont agree that dublin clubs arent well up there. They have had numerous different clubs contesting all ireland finals and Cuala have come from nowhere in the hurling.

There have been a few long-winded spiels which could be summarised by the statement, dublins success isnt down to the money pumped in. Well frankly if it isnt then they dont need it, so why are they still taking it? Give it all back so. You cant have it every way.

Just think about what is being said. Imagine a guy coming to you to borrow a vast sum of cash to get his business up and running. Then when it is going well he turns around and tells you that the money wasnt really a factor at all, but he still needs more and wont pay back the rest...

bruschi

Dots1982 wrote: »

But your club is a small club I take it? In a fairly unpopulated area?

absolutely it is. But I suppose it highlights the coaching model and the advantages a big resourceful club has, and by default the county has. Very few clubs outside of Dublin would be able to afford to sustain a full time coach. ITs a fantastic thing to have, but not at all achievable for many clubs. Obviously numbers dictate the workload and fewer numbers means less requirement for full time work, but having a dedicated person there being fully employed is a fantastic thing to have.

Fann Linn

threeball wrote: »

Yes your right in Dublins case it's about money.

You're gas. You presesnt examples where the small clubs can excel but because Dublin are mentioned you dismiss your own findings.

threeball

Fann Linn wrote: »

threeball wrote: »

Yes your right in Dublins case it's about money.

You're gas. You presesnt examples where the small clubs can excel but because Dublin are mentioned you dismiss your own findings.

Because big clubs have nothing to do with Dublins dominance. I in fact stated that Dublin don't do well despite the big clubs and imported players.
Dublin do well for the exact reasons I pointed out earlier. Large development squads where the cream are chosen then trained like professionals from 18 on. Their physical development is akin to that seen in Irish players who join AFL clubs. They reach a stage physically in 2 years that all other county players achieve in about 5yrs.

beggars_bush

Membership in a Dublin GAA club is €100 +

If you get enough members in at that rate and then get the family signed up to a weekly lotto and then eating,/drinking in the clubhouse it can easily cover half the cost of a full time coach

beggars_bush

You cannot play mid week club games in a lot of counties

So many club players working outside the county and only come home at weekends

Dots1982

beggars_bush wrote: »

Membership in a Dublin GAA club is €100 +

If you get enough members in at that rate and then get the family signed up to a weekly lotto and then eating,/drinking in the clubhouse it can easily cover half the cost of a full time coach

It can cover a ****load more than that.

On a tangential point I heard one of the clubs in Dublin(might be kilmacud) has 3 CEOs on its management committee. One is the CEO of four star pizza. Anyone confirm?

beggars_bush

Dots1982 wrote: »

It can cover a ****load more than that.

On a tangential point I heard one of the clubs in Dublin(might be kilmacud) has 3 CEOs on its management committee. One is the CEO of four star pizza. Anyone confirm?

Our club sometimes struggles to buy oil for the heating

doc_17

Heard Alan Brogan talking during the week and he says that if Throne and Dublin out our weakened sides over the weekend then that’s is for the super 8s. Couldn’t agree more. But if I was Tyrone and Dublin I’d be putting out a weakened team. It would be unfair to expect them to put heart and souls into 2 matches in 8 days when they don’t have to.

Hi he sooner this super 8 bullsh*t comes to an end the better.

RoyalCelt

doc_17 wrote: »

Heard Alan Brogan talking during the week and he says that if Throne and Dublin out our weakened sides over the weekend then that’s is for the super 8s. Couldn’t agree more. But if I was Tyrone and Dublin I’d be putting out a weakened team. It would be unfair to expect them to put heart and souls into 2 matches in 8 days when they don’t have to.

Hi he sooner this super 8 bullsh*t comes to an end the better.

What format would be better

ToBeFrank123

RoyalCelt wrote: »

What format would be better

At this stage I'd nearly favour going back to the very old format of provincial winners going straight to an AI semi final. There's just too many nothing games at the moment. And teams can lose two games and still reach an AI semi final nowadays.

RoyalCelt

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

At this stage I'd nearly favour going back to the very old format of provincial winners going straight to an AI semi final. There's just too many nothing games at the moment. And teams can lose two games and still reach an AI semi final nowadays.

I'd only go back to that because we know Dublin win will anyone. Current format is excellent if you remove Dublin