Changes in the GAA - super thread

blanch152 wrote: »

I am fed up with posters bitter about their county's lack of success or jealous of Dublin's success coming on here trying to take money away from the mass participation of kids in our national game.

And I'm fed up with people trying to pretend Dublin's success is coming on a level playing field.

Don't bother with the 'please think of the children' argument- it's honestly pathetic. What people are trying to do is ensure a level playing field so that Gaelic football doesn't continue to decline the way it has over the last few years.

blanch152 wrote: »

Dublin's kids need to be funded more than other counties, because there are more of them!! Simple demographics.

As you know, per capita funding has been consistently higher in Dublin than every other county over the last 15 years. Nothing to do with demographics.

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, there was a one-off significant contribution to kick-start the process in the mid-2000s, but the latest funding allocations are much closer to the demographics. Why do you think that McKenna et al go back to 2006 and 2007 to create their graphs? Because there is no longer any great discrepancy other than the demographic one of looking after more kids.

There was a significant contribution both from central funding from the GAA but also from the government of the day. The long term average needs to be equalised- this will mean significantly underfunding Dublin for the next few years so as to ensure things are equal.

The problem with Dublin's financial doping is that there is long term benefit, even after the level of funding has been slightly reduced. It's similar to other forms of doping really- think of a baseball player who does a couple of cycles of steroids at the start of his career and benefits for all of it.

Also, bear in mind, Dublin are getting millions more from the sponsorship partners than every other county. In an amateur organisation, with an amateur ethos (well, amateur for every county except one), there's no reason this money couldn't be shared for everyone to benefit. So they are still being financially doped even if Bertie has stopped doling them out €1 million a year just for being the Dubs.

blanch152 wrote: »

As for Kerry, they have created these high-performance centres for kids approaching minor and have been rewarded with minor success. Dublin don't emphasise that to the same extent because the focus is on mass participation.

.

There are development squads etc in Kerry, like there are in every other county. This is done in conjunction with training of less talented children, not entirely at their expense, again like every other county.

Dublin are not unique- you would like to believe they are as it suits your argument but it's not the case.

blanch152 wrote: »

You see, I care most about the participation of ordinary people in our games, the county game is secondary. It doesn't matter to me whether Croke Park is full or who wins the All-Ireland, so long as the money keeps going to the grassroots as it does in Dublin. Other counties - Mayo being one example - have spent a fortune on their senior team over the last decade or so to the detriment of under-age football. Dublin are not making that mistake.

You don't care most about the participation of ordinary people- you care most about Dublin winning the All Ireland and Dublin GAA benefiting at the expense of every other county. If you didn't care about this, you'd be in favour of funding being equalised. Dublin's dominance is harming the game, massively.

Dublin have spent a fortune on both their senior and their underage teams. This has been enabled by the millions more they get than every other county.

It's lucky you don't care about Croke Park being full though- it soon won't be if Dublin continue the way they are.

To be honest, it's probably past the point of no return now anyway. Dublin have been so successfully financially doped, and lobby so successfully against any attempts at equality, it will probably never be a level playing field again.

Even Philly McMahon admits that Dublin have unfair advantages:

"And that needs to be the message. I don’t think you could go to any top team in this country and say to them, Which would you want to win — an All-Ireland that changes the rules, that complains about money and this, this, and this, or beat Dublin with all of these things?"

Why should any county have to beat Dublin with the extra money and home games and so on? Should Philly not be asking, which would he prefer, to be winning All Ireland's like it is or to be winning them fairly?

EICVD

Perifect wrote: »

Even Philly McMahon admits that Dublin have unfair advantages:

"And that needs to be the message. I don’t think you could go to any top team in this country and say to them, Which would you want to win — an All-Ireland that changes the rules, that complains about money and this, this, and this, or beat Dublin with all of these things?"

Why should any county have to beat Dublin with the extra money and home games and so on? Should Philly not be asking, which would he prefer, to be winning All Ireland's like it is or to be winning them fairly?

Hahaha, we are winning them fairly. Also McMahons point was stop whinging & just come beat us

EICVD wrote: »

Hahaha, we are winning them fairly. Also McMahons point was stop whinging & just come beat us

At this stage, it's commonly accepted that Dublin have not been winning fairly. The facts about the level of funding Dublin received has emerged and it's scandalous. My question stands, why don't Dublin players want to win All Ireland's fairly instead of whinging about other counties wanting fair play?

MayoAreMagic

EICVD wrote: »

Hahaha, we are winning them fairly. Also McMahons point was stop whinging & just come beat us

So basically, whinge and moan until you get financially doped.
Then tell everyone to just come and beat you...

Well that is fair...

Mcmahon is just worried about his weakness in the air getting exposed. So he went whinging in the press, ironically, about whinging.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

So basically, whinge and moan until you get financially doped.
Then tell everyone to just come and beat you...

Well that is fair...

Mcmahon is just worried about his weakness in the air getting exposed. So he went whinging in the press, ironically, about whinging.

I don't think it was Philly who had the "wind" problems in certain games

MayoAreMagic

Bonniedog wrote: »

I don't think it was Philly who had the "wind" problems in certain games

So you have given up on the point at hand completely and just played the man.

Probably as close to an admission as we will get...

Perifect wrote: »

At this stage, it's commonly accepted that Dublin have not been winning fairly.

You have made an assertion. Do you have data to back this assertion up?

Jaden wrote: »

You have made an assertion. Do you have data to back this assertion up?

That it's commonly accepted that Dublin have not been winning fairly? Have you read any newspapers of late? Have you listened to any sports radio? Even Philly McMahon admits it! And he was complaining about all the people saying they have won things unfairly. On boards.ie, a thread got closed down because of the view that Dublin have been winning unfairly is too common. So yes, it's commonly accepted that Dublin have not been winning fairly.
So back to my question; why don't Dublin players want to win All Ireland's fairly instead of whinging about other counties wanting fair play?

How have they not been winning fairly?

Mayo senior footballers have a bigger budget, or have had in a number of recent years. Is that unfair to Leitrim or Sligo?

Or are you suggesting that Dublin are cheating by bribing officials, being paid and so on?

spit it out old chap.

Bonniedog wrote: »

How have they not been winning fairly?

Mayo senior footballers have a bigger budget, or have had in a number of recent years. Is that unfair to Leitrim or Sligo?

Or are you suggesting that Dublin are cheating by bribing officials, being paid and so on?

spit it out old chap.

According to the Dublin county board accounts, Dublin have been spending 2.5-2.7 a year on their underage. That's serious cash. Look at the list of players that has produced. Before you look at playing games at home and so on, this money alone makes things very unfair.
I don't see any other way of looking at it. Can you tell me how you think Dublin spending 2.7 million a year on player development is in any way fair?

Perifect wrote: »

So yes, it's commonly accepted that Dublin have not been winning fairly.

...and not one iota of evidence to support the assertion is given. A vague reference to newspapers and radio, a mis-quote of a Dublin Senior Footballer.

The thread that was locked had a poll that showed 70% of people did not want Dublin split, and you use that as evidence to support your claim. Ok.

I will ask once more, I am happy to listen to any evidence that your assertion is commonly accepted. If you have it, please share.

I would accept that within whatever media sources you consume your news from, that there may be a higher proportion of people who agree with your assertion. We call this an Echo Chamber.

Jaden wrote: »

...and not one iota of evidence to support the assertion is given. A vague reference to newspapers and radio, a mis-quote of a Dublin Senior Footballer.

The thread that was locked had a poll that showed 70% of people did not want Dublin split, and you use that as evidence to support your claim. Ok.

I will ask once more, I am happy to listen to any evidence that your assertion is commonly accepted. If you have it, please share.

I would accept that within whatever media sources you consume your news from, that there may be a higher proportion of people who agree with your assertion. We call this an Echo Chamber.

I just gave you the evidence! It's in the rest of the post you cut. The thread had no poll? What are you talking about? Is Philly McMahon apart of the echo chamber? He said that other counties should try to beat Dublin despite the unfair advantages.

That leads us back to the question I asked that you have ignored again. Why don't Dublin players want to win All Ireland's fairly instead of whinging about other counties wanting fair play?

EICVD wrote: »

Hahaha, we are winning them fairly. Also McMahons point was stop whinging & just come beat us

The funding discrepancy alone is enough to tell you that it's not a level playing field, so definitely not fair.

Bonniedog wrote: »

How have they not been winning fairly?

Mayo senior footballers have a bigger budget, or have had in a number of recent years. Is that unfair to Leitrim or Sligo?

Or are you suggesting that Dublin are cheating by bribing officials, being paid and so on?

spit it out old chap.

As above- the funding discrepancy is the main issue. Mayo are not funded more than Dublin- where are you getting this nonsense from? There are other unfair advantages of course- playing games at home, population etc, but funding is the main one and the single thing that needs to be addressed most urgently.

Jaden wrote: »

The thread that was locked had a poll that showed 70% of people did not want Dublin split, and you use that as evidence to support your claim. Ok.

I will ask once more, I am happy to listen to any evidence that your assertion is commonly accepted. If you have it, please share.

The thread he's referring to didn't have a poll- I started it. You should recall it- you waded in with some confused and ill-informed posts towards the end of it.

Regardless, whether it's "commonly accepted" or not, it's a fact that Dublin have indeed not been winning unfairly. See the reasons above. Or just read this thread or the previous thread.

The only echo chamber is the biased Dublin fans clapping each other on the back and saying that the current state of affairs is fair and should continue.

Do you think it's fair that Dublin have been and continue to be completely overfunded compared to every other county? I don't.

Here:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/mayo-the-big-spenders-this-graph-breaks-down-each-countys-costs-in-2016-35458592.html

gaffer91 wrote: »

Mayo are not funded more than Dublin- where are you getting this nonsense from? T.

MayoAreMagic

Jaden wrote: »

...and not one iota of evidence to support the assertion is given. A vague reference to newspapers and radio, a mis-quote of a Dublin Senior Footballer.

The thread that was locked had a poll that showed 70% of people did not want Dublin split, and you use that as evidence to support your claim. Ok.

I will ask once more, I am happy to listen to any evidence that your assertion is commonly accepted. If you have it, please share.

I would accept that within whatever media sources you consume your news from, that there may be a higher proportion of people who agree with your assertion. We call this an Echo Chamber.

In fairness, Ewan McKenna gives reams and reams of evidence and thoroughly debunks all the tired counter arguments - some of which are reappearing here, and the response from dublin fans is to just personally insult the man en mass, ignore his points, and peddle the same arguments the guy has debunked. The equivalent of a boxer, already beaten, dancing around the ring with his arms in the air.

The reality is, the goal of the Dublin fan in this debate, is not to find an answer, but instead to just go around in circles. They know they are 100% wrong. They know they are financially doped, they know they were alsorans without it. They also know that if they want to keep it this way, they can't admit it. So they won't, and that is because all they care about is Dublin winning. That is what you get when you try to entice fans into something by giving them cheap wins, the fans attracted aren't really bothered about the sport itself.
Hopefully in the future we get leaders who have the balls to stop selling out for a few quid.

Bonniedog wrote: »

Here:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/mayo-the-big-spenders-this-graph-breaks-down-each-countys-costs-in-2016-35458592.html

Look at the Dublin county board accounts. http://www.stsylvesters.ie/files/dublin-county-board-accounts-2016/view

It busts your claim wide open! Even on the year Mayo had their record spend.

Surely the Indo is not making it up!

Bonniedog wrote: »

Surely the Indo is not making it up!

Did you look at the accounts? Dublin spent 2.7 million on underage in 2016. This is a million over what Mayo spent on their senior team!

Bonniedog wrote: »

Here:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/mayo-the-big-spenders-this-graph-breaks-down-each-countys-costs-in-2016-35458592.html

I've read that two year old article. That only refers to spending on inter- county sides. There's much spending besides. Bear in mind that mileage spending for rural counties is going to be much higher than in Dublin/ Cork without enhancing the team's performance at all (in fact, it just allows those sides to actually field a team which may be impossible otherwise)

All spending within a county is linked. Money spent on other areas will help the senior side, although it may take a few years to have an effect.

Dublin are over-funded relative to every other county- centrally, from sponsorships etc. The figures bear this out. To equalise this, Dublin will need to be underfunded for many years to come- note the analogy I previously made about other forms of doping like Dublin's financial doping. The benefits to the doper last for years afterwards.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

In fairness, Ewan McKenna gives reams and reams of evidence and thoroughly debunks all the tired counter arguments - some of which are reappearing here, and the response from dublin fans is to just personally insult the man en mass, ignore his points, and peddle the same arguments the guy has debunked. The equivalent of a boxer, already beaten, dancing around the ring with his arms in the air.

The reality is, the goal of the Dublin fan in this debate, is not to find an answer, but instead to just go around in circles. They know they are 100% wrong. They know they are financially doped, they know they were alsorans without it. They also know that if they want to keep it this way, they can't admit it. So they won't, and that is because all they care about is Dublin winning. That is what you get when you try to entice fans into something by giving them cheap wins, the fans attracted aren't really bothered about the sport itself.
Hopefully in the future we get leaders who have the balls to stop selling out for a few quid.

Very little of what Ewan writes (or rewrites as the case may be), stands up to any kind of scrutiny. That's not to say he is entirely wrong about everything, but there is no objective analysis in much of what he writes, and none at all in his writings about Dublin. His distain for all things blue is obvious, and at times crass. It taints what might be any semblance of credible claim. Misrepresented facts, coupled with here-say and whataboutery, masking itself dishonestly as balanced journalism.

He is interested in more clicks and an elevated profile, and I doubt much else.

I have tried to play the opinion and not the man, but that is no simple feat given how deeply entrenched his loathing of Dublin is. I would think the five in a row if it comes to pass, might be too much for him.

Perifect wrote: »

Can you tell me how you think Dublin spending 2.7 million a year on player development is in any way fair?

2.7 million on Underage Games Development. Let's at least be correct, if you are going to make claims.

If I had my way, it would be doubled. I have zero qualms about that.

Dots1982

Jaden wrote: »

2.7 million on Underage Games Development. Let's at least be correct, if you are going to make claims.

If I had my way, it would be doubled. I have zero qualms about that.

So then you can understand why people here have no qualms about calling dublin financially doped?

Jaden wrote: »

Very little of what Ewan writes (or rewrites as the case may be), stands up to any kind of scrutiny. That's not to say he is entirely wrong about everything, but there is no objective analysis in much of what he writes, and none at all in his writings about Dublin. His distain for all things blue is obvious, and at times crass. It taints what might be any semblance of credible claim. Misrepresented facts, coupled with here-say and whataboutery, masking itself dishonestly as balanced journalism.

He is interested in more clicks and an elevated profile, and I doubt much else.

I have tried to play the opinion and not the man, but that is no simple feat given how deeply entrenched his loathing of Dublin is. I would think the five in a row if it comes to pass, might be too much for him.

Your pseudo- intellectual posts are embarrassingly bad.

You realise everything you just wrote is just an attack on the pundit without any evidence or examples?

Most of his claims are accurate (about Dublin GAA and their overfunding at least, I'm not familiar with his other work). Dubs don't like him because he's one of the few pundits who will consistently call them out on their unfair advantages.

Dots1982 wrote: »

So then you can understand why people here have no qualms about calling dublin financially doped?

I can understand that completely - 100%, zero issue there.

Making a claim, but not providing sufficient evidence to back that claim up, is simply stating an (unfounded) opinion.

The entitlement to an opinion is not a validation in itself of that opinion. Do you understand that?

Dots1982

Jaden wrote: »

I can understand that completely - 100%, zero issue there.

Making a claim, but not providing sufficient evidence to back that claim up, is simply stating an (unfounded) opinion.

The entitlement to an opinion is not a validation in itself of that opinion. Do you understand that?

I understand you’re denying the obvious in the face of overwhelming proof.

Beyond that, no I can’t relate to anything you are posting here and just have to admire the how one person can deceive himself so they don’t have to confront the truth.

Dots1982 wrote: »

I understand you’re denying the obvious in the face of overwhelming proof.

That is an opinion, and from what I can see, unsubstantiated.

Dots1982 wrote: »

Beyond that, no I can’t relate to anything you are posting here and just have to admire the how one person can deceive himself so they don’t have to confront the truth.

I would respectfully suggest that you can't relate, as you have no desire to relate. That is fair enough, I cannot alter that.

As for what you consider the truth, I cannot seemingly alter that either. I have almost certainly reviewed the same data that you have, but have not been lead to the same conclusions that you have.

I don't think you are blind or deluded in your opinion, I just think you are wrong. Until I am presented with evidence to the contrary, I would imagine the status quo will remain.

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

I am fed up with posters bitter about their county's lack of success or jealous of Dublin's success coming on here trying to take money away from the mass participation of kids in our national game.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Well I for one can hand on heart say I'm not jealous of Dublin in any way. Their current situation has been artificially created by sustained financial doping, while opponents are starved of resources at the same time. This was done because, despite having all the tools to dominate the gaa, the state of the game was dire in the county.
For the powers that be to need to basically rig the competition for you to win, to get you to show a decent level of interest isn't something I'd be jealous of.
It is a record to be ashamed of truth be told.

You may claim not to be jealous, but you are certainly very bitter about the situation. As I posed the question as an either or, I seem to have read it right.