travellers in flash cars??

BigEejit · 29-12-2005 2:23pm

To answer the OP, I was on the Rosslare -> Fishguard ferry yesterday and stood in a queue to get a cabin onboard ... the first person in the queue was a traveller (was in posession of big hoopy earrings and spoke with a traveller accent - also had 3 kids with her who took every leaflet off the counter and threw them on the floor without reprimand) ... she was asked for her car registration number, she said she did not know it ... when asked for the make model she said it was a black BMW Jeep (her description exactly)....
Next in line was a Traveller male who also did not give his reg but said it was a Porsche (no model or colour)....

I begrudge no-one their possessions, but you would think that they would at least be able to identify them.

To whoever said that the traveller accent is similar to the Cork accent ... LOL, you must have heard a Cork Traveller(s) ... I am not from Cork but lived there for several years and never once heard a Cork accent similar to a travellers .... hehehe I dare you to stand in the middle of a bar in Cork city and say that

The next question is of course, how would I know a traveller accent? .. I lived near the bullring in Tralee (and also St. Brendans park) when i was attending the RTC in Tralee (rent close to those areas being FAR cheaper than anywhere else - because of the likelyhood of being a crime statistic) .... I also lived near them in Galway City (near Rahoon) ...
I have been pestered (looking for money for Halloween for 3 weeks either side othe actual date, sometimes by youths up to 18 years old),
threatened ("give me money or I'll slash the tires on your bike"),
cajoled ("buy this <crap item> so I can feed the childers" every week at my door because one of the idiots in the house bought a stolen radio),
attacked (me plus classmate had slate fragments thrown at us, friend gashed on back of leg and head)
and stolen from (burgled while away for Christmas - guards were called and we were told that 14 other properties in our estate were broken into by a gang from Rahoon - but only a few of the stolen items were found)

Have I ever had a good experience with a Traveller? no ... Do I know anyone who has had dealings with travellers had a good experience? no ....
Its not the few giving the majority a bad name

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 2:26pm

In saying that, granted, they are marginalized and under-eductated but they make not attempt to help themselves or get out of the position they are in

How do you know this? Can you back this up with anything to prove what you are saying?

Lets put it another way.

Darndale. Its not that far away from where I live now and I actually lived there for 2 years as a teenager. I know numerous people/friends who live there. None of them are scumbags, yet there was/is a small portion of scumbags in Darndale who would quite happly steal/hurt you for no reason.

However because of this minority it had a huge implication on the rest of the people who were sterotyped. So much so that most of the people I know in order to get jobs had to give an address that wasn't in darndale (normally a relation elsewhere in Dublin).

Even myself at the time going for work experience in Motarola where I pretty much had the job up until they asked me where I lived. At which point (no joke) they removed all the electronics they had on the desk in front of me, took one out of my hand I was examining and locked them into the drawer and then said I should try looking for a job that "is more of your standing".

You see when you have attitudes like that then you are continuing to create the problem that these people are living in.

You assume the people are criminals/scum so you treat them like such before they have a chance to show you otherwise. When you treat people like assholes they tend to be assholes back.

I have had numerous meetings with Travellers though my life. Yes there have been total assholes, but I don't let one asshole represent the rest.

Commander Vimes wrote:

racism is against another race. its a subset of prejudice. racism is prejudice but predjudice is not necessarily racism.

Believe what you want to believe then, I gave you a link to read on the subject if you want to remain ignorant there is nothing else I can do.

the_menace · 29-12-2005 2:32pm

Hobbes wrote:

Actually prejudice is just a part of Racism. Generally racism can also refer to having the power to carry out discriminatory practices.

If people got paid for talking absolute gibberish, you'd be a millionaire.

looperman1000 · 29-12-2005 2:40pm

all the pro traveller people on here must be either a traveller themselves, married to one, or just more useless PC human beings that have nothing better to do. how can you defend them? kop yourselves on, seriously.
everyone in ireland has a choice. they have been offered houses, the majority DONT want them. they get away with murder they really do. parasites doesnt even come close to what they should be called. human sponges, i dunno.
why do they have to continuously have to try and rip people off, they must think we are really thick.
and on the note about the little kid being knocked down, that just makes me feel downright sick, if that was my kid, i would get all the neighbourhood around me, and id tell you they wouldnt be outside my house for long, thats for sure.
they make me ashamed to be irish
sorry just my 2 cents worth

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 2:41pm

the_menace wrote:

If people got paid for talking absolute gibberish, you'd be a millionaire.

Yes thanks for that well thought out rebuttal. :rolleyes:

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 2:42pm

looperman1000 wrote:

hey have been offered houses, the majority DONT want them.

Can you tell me where you got this figure from?

looperman1000 · 29-12-2005 2:44pm

as where the pro traveller people defending them, are getting their figures from Mr PC. sorry i mean Mr Hobbes

Sam Vimes · 29-12-2005 2:48pm

Hobbes wrote:

How do you know this? Can you back this up with anything to prove what you are saying?

well, yes. they have the chance, and the legal responsibility, to send their children to school and they don't

living in darndale means nothing about you except that you live in darndale. classing you as the same as scum in your area is wrong. however, being a traveller means more than where they live. its a way of life. to use a similar example to the above, its like the difference between saying:

"he is from south carolina therefore he's a racist"
and
"he is in the kkk therefore he's a racist"

in one, the person has no choice in the matter so generalising is wrong. in the other, the person made a decision to join a racist organisation, so calling him racist is fair.

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 2:49pm

looperman1000 wrote:

as where the pro traveller people defending them, are getting their figures from Mr PC. sorry i mean Mr Hobbes

I am asking an honest question. Can you point me to the figures of travellers who were offered houses and accepted/rejected.

You appear to know, so do something different for a change and show me so I can see that you are correct.

Commander Vimes wrote:

living in darndale means nothing about you except that you live in darndale. classing you as the same as scum in your area is wrong.

Darndale housing was given out mostly to the poor + single mothers sometime back. So it was believed if you lived in Darndale you were poor and because you were poor you were not educated and probably a thief or drug dealer.

The attitudes have changed now but 20 years ago the attitude was much the same as the vitirol on this thread.

looperman1000 · 29-12-2005 2:54pm

Hobbes wrote:

I am asking an honest question. Can you point me to the figures of travellers who were offered houses and accepted/rejected.

You appear to know, so do something different for a change and show me so I can see that you are correct.

Im afraid that comes from the dublin housing authority and i am not at liberty to divulge that information as i could lose my job. but i can assure u it is safe for me to say tha majority, you can choose to believe it or not, it really does make no odds to me whatsover. but i do think you are fighting a losing battle as imho the majority of people in ireland/dublin would be anit rather than pro traveller.

BizMaker · 29-12-2005 3:02pm

Hobbes wrote:

It is public up to a point. Despite what you think you can't post what you like here.

You mean it's public up to your point.

Once again, we see the usual link with irrefutable proof that we are racists:
http://www.exchangehouse.ie/ireland.htm

(Exchange House provides Family Support, Youth Services, Money Advice and Education programmes to the Travelling Community in Dublin, Ireland.)
What do you expect them to say?

I can create a website that would state that we are not racists. Would it imply that it is true?

I do believe that there is a minority group of travellers who are decent human beings.

But in the past:
I've had travellers throw rocks at my car while coming off a motorway exit:
"How do you know that they were travellers?" Well, they were standing by their caravans. And the guards told me later that they were (from other similar reports).

I have a scar in my forehead after being attacked by a drunk traveller in my local town. He also sexually assaulted my girlfriend that night by grabbing her breast. We did not prosecute for fear of reprisals as he comes from a well known large travelling family.

To come to think of it, my list is quite substantial so I won't continue. But I have the scar and the phone number of the Guard who dealt with the rock throwing incident if proof is required.

Unbelievably, it seems that to object to traveller anti-social behaviour in a public forum is racist.

BigEejit · 29-12-2005 3:02pm

looperman1000 wrote:

Im afraid that comes from the dublin housing authority and i am not at liberty to divulge that information as i could lose my job. but i can assure u it is safe for me to say tha majority, you can choose to believe it or not, it really does make no odds to me whatsover. but i do think you are fighting a losing battle as imho the majority of people in ireland/dublin would be anit rather than pro traveller.

TBH I am as anti-traveller as most people but that just smacks of off-the-cuff bullshít

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 3:14pm

looperman1000 wrote:

Im afraid that comes from the dublin housing authority and i am not at liberty to divulge that information as i could lose my job.

Such figures are generally available to the public. You could just request via FOIA I'm sure you the drill what with working there and all. :rolleyes:

I also referring to all of Ireland not just Dublin btw.

Here let me help you with what I found (previous links plus this)..

http://www.travellersrest.org/WhatsNew040617.htm

- Estimated 27,000 Travellers in Ireland.
- 1,000 of them are considered illegally roaming.
- 1,200-2,000 are considered roaming as well (part of previous figure).
- Only 3 camps in Ireland allow roaming travellers to move to another camp is considered illegal.

"The Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act of 1998 required each housing authority to adopt a five year Traveller Accommodation Programme and to take 'reasonable steps' to implement it by this year. (2004)

According to Travellers' rights organisations, only two Councils Donegal and Westmeath have gone anywhere near to doing so."...

The 1998 legislation has not impacted on the ground as it should have, yet the number of evictions under the same legislation has actually increased. There were 500 in South Dublin last year. Many families have literally died waiting for accommodation."

Of the 2,200 units of Traveller specific accommodation recommended in the 1995 Government Task Force on Travellers only 251 extra units of halting site accommodation has been provided."

Out of the 900 housing units recommended 757 units have been provided. (2004)

BizMaker wrote:

You mean it's public up to your point.

No up to boards.ie point.

Once again, we see the usual link with irrefutable proof that we are racists:
http://www.exchangehouse.ie/ireland.htm

Did I say you were? The document in question links off to various reports and studies by various bodies. The site in question just compiled them. Of course you would know this if you read it.

I've had travellers throw rocks at my car while coming off a motorway exit:

Kids in Darndale got kicks by doing the exact same thing some years back.

We did not prosecute for fear of reprisals as he comes from a well known large travelling family.

Social norms are defined by punishments for crimes. If you are going to let people get away with it you can't really turn around and complain when they continue to do it.

looperman1000 · 29-12-2005 3:15pm

BigEejit wrote:

TBH I am as anti-traveller as most people but that just smacks of off-the-cuff bullshít

sorry, but looking back at it, so do i.

BigEejit · 29-12-2005 3:27pm

"The Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act of 1998 required each housing authority to adopt a five year Traveller Accommodation Programme and to take 'reasonable steps' to implement it by this year. (2004)

According to Travellers' rights organisations, only two Councils Donegal and Westmeath have gone anywhere near to doing so."...

The 1998 legislation has not impacted on the ground as it should have, yet the number of evictions under the same legislation has actually increased. There were 500 in South Dublin last year. Many families have literally died waiting for accommodation."

Of the 2,200 units of Traveller specific accommodation recommended in the 1995 Government Task Force on Travellers only 251 extra units of halting site accommodation has been provided."

Out of the 900 housing units recommended 757 units have been provided. (2004)

My brother is a plumber and has regularly been called to replace plumbing at halting sites in Galway city that have been trashed completely (some halting site buildings needing to be demolished and rebuilt) ... this was almost always been done by the travellers themselves (scumbags from the area would not take a kango hammer to walls and floors to remove copper pipe while the travellers were in caravans outside)

does that report take into account the amount the councils spend on repairing / replacing halting sites?

ferdi · 29-12-2005 3:37pm

travellers are not a race.

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 3:38pm

BigEejit wrote:

does that report take into account the amount the councils spend on repairing / replacing halting sites?

No but I would certainly like to see one that factors in vandalism in relation to what goes on.

Also found these links...

http://www.itmtrav.com/Frame1.html
3,100 units of Traveller specific accommodation be provided by the year 2000. By the end of 1999 only 98 units of this accommodation have been provided.

The total number of Traveller families accommodated with assistance from the local authorities at the end of 1999 is 3,583.

The number of Traveller families awaiting accommodation at the end of 1999 was in excess of 1207. The additional number of Traveller families accommodated in 1999 was 68. This rate of accommodation provision will not even keep pace with the projected 4% annual increase in Traveller population.

Also this site..
http://www.paveepoint.ie/fs_racism_a.html

Also covers a lot of other stuff.

billy the squid · 29-12-2005 4:01pm

Commander Vimes wrote:

as etho says you can spot them a mile off. usually because they're wearing your shoes. you can spot them by their accent, the way they dress and the fact that they feel the need to be permanently loud and obnoxious

after i left the cinema, two more in the taxi queue in front of me felt the need to ask "are you a baby" while i was trying to keep my gf warm. im not sure what that means exactly but i doubt she did either. they then asked me the time even though they had watches.

I would have preferred to have reported this post than the one two posts up, but to report two posts in the space of one minute would probably piss off the moderators.

you can spot them by their accent, the way they dress and the fact that they feel the need to be permanently loud and obnoxious

the same could be said about football supporters, or patrons on their way home from a boozer late at night singing songs about blowing up the brittish, or what have ya..

the_menace · 29-12-2005 4:03pm

Hobbes wrote:

Yes thanks for that well thought out rebuttal. :rolleyes:

Pathetic. I quote what I was referring to:

Actually prejudice is just a part of Racism. Generally racism can also refer to having the power to carry out discriminatory practices.

Racism can refer to having the power to carry out discriminatory practices? That means we're all racist. You don't even know what racism means and you're running around calling everyone a racist. That well thought out enough for you?

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 4:15pm

the_menace wrote:

Racism can refer to having the power to carry out discriminatory practices? That means we're all racist. You don't even know what racism means and you're running around calling everyone a racist. That well thought out enough for you?

I have already linked to its defination and even a newer page which describes it better (goes into detail as to what kind of racism they have to put up with). Go have a read. Even mentions it in the first paragraph of the page....

Racism is a specific form of discrimination based on skin colour or membership of a minority ethnic group. It is a system of group dominance which his both structural and ideological. In other words - racism is a combination of power and prejudice whereby the group with the greater power and influence shapes society. It is their assumptions of what is 'normal' that becomes society's underlying assumptions and this process then excludes those who do not belong to the dominant group.

Giblet · 29-12-2005 4:16pm

the_menace wrote:

If people got paid for talking absolute gibberish, you'd be a millionaire.

How is this relevant? You either agree or you don't, leave the personal stuff out.

the_menace · 29-12-2005 4:24pm

*sigh* I give up.

Okay, I concede. Travellers aren't disproportionately involved in criminality, don't leech off the state when it suits them and neglect their civic responsibilities when that suits them. Most traveller males aren't regularly involved in acts of intimidation and thuggery and pubs should be open for all travellers to host their wakes, weddings, christenings, etc. In fact, I would go as far as to say that they are more upstanding in this society than the rest of us 'settled' people and we really shouldn't give them a hard time. They're just so great. :rolleyes:

Sarcasm over - I don't like travellers and never will unless they prove to the planet that they're not vermin. Simple as. Rebuttals welcome - call me a racist and you've lost the argument.

billy the squid · 29-12-2005 4:24pm

BizMaker wrote:

You mean it's public up to your point.

no, its public upto the point where the charter is breeched.

Do you really believe that it is ok to use terms such as "Pikey" and "Knacker" to refer to travellers? My own position would be that if you want to go down the route of disagreeing with the existance of travellers then fair enough, but to use such terms as mentioned above is out of line.

Once again, we see the usual link with irrefutable proof that we are racists:
http://www.exchangehouse.ie/ireland.htm

(Exchange House provides Family Support, Youth Services, Money Advice and Education programmes to the Travelling Community in Dublin, Ireland.)
What do you expect them to say?

to say what they see.

I can create a website that would state that we are not racists. Would it imply that it is true?

If you can prove it. which the creators of this website believe they can prove that ireland is racist. personally i would use the word Sectarian to avoid threads getting bogged down in race status issues.

I do believe that there is a minority group of travellers who are decent human beings

But in the past:
I've had travellers throw rocks at my car while coming off a motorway exit:
"How do you know that they were travellers?" Well, they were standing by their caravans. And the guards told me later that they were (from other similar reports).

one could equally post the following

In the past I have been showerd by glass as a train from dublin I was on was hit by a rock thrown off an overhead bridge in ballyfermot.
anti-social behaviour is not exclusive to travellers.

I have a scar in my forehead after being attacked by a drunk traveller in my local town. He also sexually assaulted my girlfriend that night by grabbing her breast. We did not prosecute for fear of reprisals as he comes from a well known large travelling family.

To come to think of it, my list is quite substantial so I won't continue. But I have the scar and the phone number of the Guard who dealt with the rock throwing incident if proof is required.

Unbelievably, it seems that to object to traveller anti-social behaviour in a public forum is racist.

I would applaud objecting to anti-social behaviour amongst travellers, however i do object to people objecting to travellers outright and claiming without evidence that the majority are the scum of the earth. and would also object to the sectarian jokes posted earlier in this thread.

billy the squid · 29-12-2005 4:27pm

the_menace wrote:

Sarcasm over - I don't like travellers and never will unless they prove to the planet that they're not vermin. Simple as. Rebuttals welcome - call me a racist and you've lost the argument.

I prefer to judge an individual on their own actions, not on what section of society they come from. to do otherwise, is biggotted.

BigEejit · 29-12-2005 4:33pm

Hobbes wrote:

Racism is a specific form of discrimination based on skin colour or membership of a minority ethnic group. It is a system of group dominance which his both structural and ideological. In other words - racism is a combination of power and prejudice whereby the group with the greater power and influence shapes society. It is their assumptions of what is 'normal' that becomes society's underlying assumptions and this process then excludes those who do not belong to the dominant group.

I dont believe that the Irish government is racist ... and if any of the anti-travellers posting in this thread are in the dominant group they are certainly ineffective at getting the travellers excluded from anything

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 4:33pm

the_menace wrote:

*sigh* I give up.

Okay, I concede. Travellers aren't disproportionately involved in criminality, don't leech off the state when it suits them and neglect their civic responsibilities when that suits them. Most traveller males aren't regularly involved in acts of intimidation and thuggery and pubs should be open for all travellers to host their wakes, weddings, christenings, etc. In fact, I would go as far as to say that they are more upstanding in this society than the rest of us 'settled' people and we really shouldn't give them a hard time. They're just so great. :rolleyes:

Sarcasm over - I don't like travellers and never will unless they prove to the planet that they're not vermin. Simple as. Rebuttals welcome - call me a racist and you've lost the argument.

Not sure how you loose the argument when you already refer to them as "vermin". Intresting sarcasm though. Have you thought about reading through the Gardai site for the actual figures? I'm pretty sure they would have something there. I'd do it myself except that it is you making the assertion so it would probably be better for you to do the research and you would have a better standing when it comes to debating.

I dont believe that the Irish government is racist

Earlier link refers to Irish government officials comments on the issue and details the bills passed that have had negative effects on Travellers as well not keeping thier end of the bargin.

But the whole government.. No.

the_menace · 29-12-2005 4:51pm

Hobbes wrote:

Not sure how you loose the argument when you already refer to them as "vermin". Intresting sarcasm though. Have you thought about reading through the Gardai site for the actual figures? I'm pretty sure they would have something there. I'd do it myself except that it is you making the assertion so it would probably be better for you to do the research and you would have a better standing when it comes to debating.

Earlier link refers to Irish government officials comments on the issue and details the bills passed that have had negative effects on Travellers as well not keeping thier end of the bargin.

But the whole government.. No.

Are you qualified to even have an opinion? Have you ever had dealings with, met many or had 'run ins' with any travellers? Do you know any personally?

Victor · 29-12-2005 4:55pm

billy the squid wrote:

If you can prove it. which the creators of this website believe they can prove that ireland is racist. personally i would use the word Sectarian to avoid threads getting bogged down in race status issues.

Sectarian has a slight religious connotation (sects). I think the menace wants to be called a bigot, not a racist.

ferdi · 29-12-2005 5:04pm

Hobbes wrote:

...Earlier link refers to...

seriously man, this use of internet links as being the be all and end all of truth and fact is becoming irritating.

Ajnag · 29-12-2005 5:07pm

That was humour?

Twas until your sensitivty bout nazi's arose.

They scare me? How do you figure? I only remember saying that I think they're a bunch of f**king scumbags.

Reactionary comments such as the above usually are a good sign.

You shouldn't make assumptions.

What experiences have you had with travellers, eh? Nah, I thought not.

I shouldnt make assumptions about you, but your free to do otherwise?
So this stream of logic is to assure us of your anecdotal evidense?

Well here's an anecdote for ya, Ive worked besides honest travellers, Ive also seen the negatives, but compared to the local scumbags, travellers are far less of a threat to me. It has been members of the local settled community who have engaged in landtheft, Not payed the bill's that were due, as well as one of the local soliciters having been caught in a case where a signature on a will was forged.

Compared to these respectable members of the community, travellers are doing poorly on my scumbag scale.

travellers in flash cars??

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