travellers in flash cars??

eth0_

There are Irish travellers living in Germany ya know. I dislike travellers too but they might just be living in Germany.

Hobbes

You know something is wrong when a UN human rights report lists Ireland as the worst for racism when it comes to Travellers.

Some hard facts as a traveller.
- You are more likely to die younger then normal Irish population (avg 12 years)
- child mortality rate (births) is over double the norm for Ireland.
- You are more likely not be able to read or write.
- You are less likely to get a job in Ireland as a traveller.
- You are liable to be moved on (eviction) with no warning. This is in areas where they are legally allowed to park thier caravans.
- You are more likely not to have basic amenities others have like running water/toilets.
- You are more likely to be faced with hostility from others on a day to day basis.
- You are less likely to get a medical card.
- Despite what people are claiming they do not get free houses and are more likely to be denied housing vs non-travellers.
- Your area is most likely to be infested with rats.
- You are liable to be banned for no reason from various establishments. (despite this being illegal)
- You are liable to have your stuff taken by the Garda even when you can legally prove it is yours.
- They do have to pay taxes (halting sites are fixed abodes), Some may not but does not mean that what they are doing is legal.

And that was just a random search across with google on what Travellers have to put up with.

Here is something to get you started...
http://www.exchangehouse.ie/ireland.htm

Beer is Life

Litcagral wrote:

If one was beaten up by a group of white, middleaged men who live in three bed semi's in a suburban area would one feel afraid when meeting a group like that again??

If the second group of 'scumbags' never harmed you why would you consider them to be scumbags??

We are surrounded by white middleaged men all the time, we know they are not all like that. But when someone has very limited contact with travellers, coupled with their "bad name", it leads to what we see here. In my town for example, whenever there is a traveller funeral or wedding, the whole town shuts down. Shops close early, pubs dont bother opening at all. This isnt a case of racism for these busineses, its a case of self preservation.

And by scumbags, i didnt literally mean the second group were scumbags, but they looked like the last group, ie, same age group, same clothing style etc etc.

Beer is Life

Hobbes wrote:

You know something is wrong when a UN human rights report lists Ireland as the worst for racism when it comes to Travellers.

Some hard facts as a traveller.
- You are more likely to die younger then normal Irish population (avg 12 years) Wouldnt this be put down to the lifestyle they live? Why is this "my" fault?
- You are more likely not be able to read or write. I worked in a school and had one to one teaching with traveller kids from about 8 up to 13. They did not want to learn or be in school. Simple as that. They did not want to be educated. The parents didnt give a shlt, wouldnt help them at home and basically allowed them not to go to school
- You are less likely to get a job in Ireland as a traveller. Majority of them are uneducated, whos gonna hire them?
- You are liable to be moved on (eviction) with no warning. This is in areas where they are legally allowed to park thier caravans.
- You are more likely not to have basic amenities others have like running water/toilets. If they park in any old ditch, what are we supposed to do? They dont use the halting sites in my town
- You are more likely to be faced with hostility from others on a day to day basis. I can only speak for my area, but i have never seen or heard of settled on traveller violence, its always and without fail the other way around.
- You are less likely to get a medical card.
- Despite what people are claiming they do not get free houses and are more likely to be denied housing vs non-travellers. ALL settled traveller houses in my town are a fvcking tip! You wouldnt see the likes of it in downtown Bagdad. Im not suprised at this.
- Your area is most likely to be infested with rats. See above
- You are liable to be banned for no reason from various establishments. (despite this being illegal)
- You are liable to have your stuff taken by the Garda even when you can legally prove it is yours.
- They do have to pay taxes (halting sites are fixed abodes), Some may not but does not mean that what they are doing is legal.

And that was just a random search across with google on what Travellers have to put up with.

Here is something to get you started...
http://www.exchangehouse.ie/ireland.htm

.

Litcagral

Beer is Life wrote:

We are surrounded by white middleaged men all the time, we know they are not all like that. But when someone has very limited contact with travellers, coupled with their "bad name", it leads to what we see here. In my town for example, whenever there is a traveller funeral or wedding, the whole town shuts down. Shops close early, pubs dont bother opening at all. This isnt a case of racism for these busineses, its a case of self preservation.

And by scumbags, i didnt literally mean the second group were scumbags, but they looked like the last group, ie, same age group, same clothing style etc etc.

If you have very limited contact with Travellers why do you assume that they are all bad?

I'm not aware of any anti-social activity in my area of Dublin being caused by travellers e.g car theft, burglary, drugs, drinking in public, shoplifting, loitering, vandalism, late night noise. I go out regularly and pick up litter around my area which is usually caused by settled children/teenagers on their way home from school.

Hobbes

Beer is Life wrote:

Wouldnt this be put down to the lifestyle they live? Why is this "my" fault?

Did I say it was your fault? Lifestyle they live is hardly by choice or are you telling me people like to live in rat infested areas with no running water/toilets?

They did not want to learn or be in school. Simple as that.

What child does? You can check oasis.gov.ie regarding travellers and schools.

Majority of them are uneducated, whos gonna hire them?

This refers to those who are educated, however racist comment like that is what stopping those getting a job.

If they park in any old ditch, what are we supposed to do? They dont use the halting sites in my town

I was referring to halting sites. Of total percentage of travellers in Ireland very few "park in any old ditch" and most that do so because they are refused parking at halting sites.

ALL settled traveller houses in my town are a fvcking tip!

So you berate them because they won't get a house and when they do get a house you berate them too. Is this reason to discriminate against them?

Of course I don't expect you to read the link. Not entirely sure why you are taking it personal either.

But heres another if you want to actually educate yourself.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~racismctee/travellr.html

the_menace

Ajnag wrote:

Hmm the humour too much for ya?

That was humour?

Ajnag wrote:

You wont be getting my respect either, so no need to worry what i think about travelers

Oh no. I don't get the respect of someone I don't know and who doesn't know me. This is the worst day of my life.

Ajnag wrote:

I just like the fact that they scare the living **** out of people like you

They scare me? How do you figure? I only remember saying that I think they're a bunch of f**king scumbags.

Ajnag wrote:

Ive no allusion to defend travellers, but I dont have to take unsubstanicated bull**** and heresay posted on a public board to heart as evident truth.

You shouldn't make assumptions. I speak from long and bitter experience, pal.

Ajnag wrote:

I think it would be "a wee bit thick really" to just swallow what someone said on the net? Dont you?

See above.

Ajnag wrote:

I just also happen to think that extreme and reactionary opinions are no better then the pedantic bull**** of pc extremists.

See above. :rolleyes:

I grew up in an area where there were many different traveller communities over the years and I have plenty of anecdotes that give rock-solid credibility to my assertions that a disproportionate number of travellers are violent, nasty pieces of work. Obviously I can't prove that any of them are true as they're simply anecdotes but I will continue to express my opinion, based on my experiences. What experiences have you had with travellers, eh? Nah, I thought not.

I'm not saying all travellers are total scum but out of the dozens of experiences I've had with them up until I moved out of said area - you could forgive me for thinking so. There are certainly a disproportionate number who are. For being in idiotic denial and living under a rock - you lost my respect Peace out.

Sam Vimes

2kinky wrote:

just wondering how do they get these high hend cars and what laws apply to them i terms of travel,paying tax prsi etc??

i can say with some confidence that no law applies to stolen cars. there were some pikeys in the cinema last night. one of them stood up for some reason and literally shouted on his phone for about ten minutes. a few weeks ago in burger king at about half 2, some pikeys insisted to the poor chinese bloke behind the counter that they gave him a fifty when they clearly didnt. the scumbags got their money. they come to my door and beg for food (or money which we wont give them) and then i see them in dunnes with a full trolley a few days later. and don't get me started on the romanian gypsies. there's a particular family that in my shop more than me. they think that we wont recognise them the second they walk in with theft on their mind. prejudice my arse.



what does a pikey get for christmas? your bike


also speaking of the cinema, don't go to see the producers. the first twenty minutes were so retarded i walked out. i don't see how anyone over the age of four could think it was funny

Hobbes

Commander Vimes wrote:

i can say with some confidence that no law applies to stolen cars. there were some pikeys in the cinema last night. one of them stood up for some reason and literally shouted on his phone for about ten minutes. a few weeks ago in burger king at about half 2, some pikeys insisted to the poor chinese bloke behind the counter that they gave him a fifty when they clearly didnt.

How do you know they are travellers? Do you ask them?

eth0_

Hobbes wrote:

You know something is wrong when a UN human rights report lists Ireland as the worst for racism when it comes to Travellers.
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It's pretty insulting to refer to it as 'racism'. Travellers are just a group of people who chose to drop out of society and live parasitically.

Unless you're referring to actual Romany Gypsies, and not Irish knackers.

eth0_

Hobbes wrote:

How do you know they are travellers? Do you ask them?

Do you live in the real world? Irish travellers are instantly identifiable.

colm_mcm

There's nothing wrong with living in a caravan, my only problem that in my experience, the majority are up to no good. in my opinion they are not a minority group that should be treasured, rather a few people who are living a very dubious lifestyle and being aided, and at the same time ignored by the government

Sam Vimes

Hobbes wrote:

How do you know they are travellers? Do you ask them?

as etho says you can spot them a mile off. usually because they're wearing your shoes. you can spot them by their accent, the way they dress and the fact that they feel the need to be permanently loud and obnoxious

after i left the cinema, two more in the taxi queue in front of me felt the need to ask "are you a baby" while i was trying to keep my gf warm. im not sure what that means exactly but i doubt she did either. they then asked me the time even though they had watches.

Litcagral

eth0_ wrote:

It's pretty insulting to refer to it as 'racism'. Travellers are just a group of people who chose to drop out of society and live parasitically.

Unless you're referring to actual Romany Gypsies, and not Irish knackers.

It's pretty insulting to assume travellers have chosen to be travellers. I don't recall being asked when I was born if I would like to be a traveller, just as most people don't recall being asked what skin colour they would like to have.

By referring to Travellers as "knackers" you are displaying your ignorance and lack of education. I suggest you find out what a knacker is before using the term incorrectly.

Beer is Life

Hobbes wrote:

Did I say it was your fault? Were you not saying that the Irish are the worst in the world for racism against travellers? I am Irish you know. I could play your game on that one and rant about generalising, but i wont.



What child does? You can check oasis.gov.ie regarding travellers and schools. It was a little more than just not wanting to be there. It was a complete lack of respect for the school, the teachers and their education. They showed alot of promise as individuals, so much potential, but they all eventually just left. No help from at home i suspect, and therefore they had no motivation themselves.



This refers to those who are educated, however racist comment like that is what stopping those getting a job. Whats racist about stating a fact? If you are uneducated, whos gonna hire you? You're basically unemployable for all but the worst of jobs. I misread the fact you were refering to the educated. This proves another point though that i mentioned earlier. Why did you feel the need to throw the race card out there? You dont know me, im not some bigot. Im just throwing some ideas out from the other side of the fence. Thats really annoyed me now.



I was referring to halting sites. Of total percentage of travellers in Ireland very few "park in any old ditch" and most that do so because they are refused parking at halting sites.



So you berate them because they won't get a house and when they do get a house you berate them too. Is this reason to discriminate against them? Id just like to state for the record ive never discriminated against anyone in my life, im just telling it like it is from where i am.

Of course I don't expect you to read the link. Not entirely sure why you are taking it personal either. When you call me racist twice, what else do you expect?

But heres another if you want to actually educate yourself.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~racismctee/travellr.html

.

the_menace

Litcagral wrote:

It's pretty insulting to assume travellers have chosen to be travellers.

Most of them have and refuse to settle even when offered settled housing by the government.

Hobbes

eth0_ wrote:

Do you live in the real world? Irish travellers are instantly identifiable.

The items he listed apart from "They have your shoes on" (racist comment) could refer to anyone else in society. About the only thing personally that I could say with some guessing is that accent only (which isn't far off from a cork accent tbh) or if you know any words of "camp" which tbh I am not even sure if that slang/language extends beyond my local area.

Were you not saying that the Irish are the worst in the world for racism against travellers? I am Irish you know. I could play your game on that one and rant about generalising, but i wont.

I was referring to a UN Commission on Human Rights, report called "Elimination of Racism and Racial Discrimination" (23rd November 1994). I even link to it for you, guess your not bothering to read.

I'm Irish too you know but I don't see the report as a personal attack against myself but instead showing something that is flawed with our society.

No help from at home i suspect, and therefore they had no motivation themselves.

So what is your answer then? Give up on them?

Whats racist about stating a fact? If you are uneducated, whos gonna hire you?

The racist part is extending that to "All travellers". You assume Traveller = uneducated. Up until you actually interview the person you aren't going to know.

Did you know in England an Irish guy was refused a job because "All Irish are drunks and would probably turn up for work drunk" and he sued that company and won (happened some years back).

Same sort of generalisation. Or the best to date was the national outcry up as far as govenmental level when Eastenders portrayed Irish as wife beating drunks who like to steal. A lot of people to get outraged over that but when there are only 27,000 of you its easier for people to make comments and not expect to be slapped for it.

Im just throwing some ideas out from the other side of the fence. Thats really annoyed me now.

Again read the link I posted has a nice bit about "I'm No Racist, and What Is It Anyway?", explains it a bit better.

im just telling it like it is from where i am.

Which still doesn't answer my question. Are you saying we shouldn't give them houses (discriminate in the selection process) or complain that they won't take a house?

When you call me racist twice, what else do you expect?

I'd expect the person to research why I am thinking the way I am by reading where I am coming from. I may be right or I may be wrong but you won't know that until you research the facts.

Hobbes

the_menace wrote:

Most of them have and refuse to settle even when offered settled housing by the government.

Can you back that up with actual facts? I say you can't because as I have pointed out the reverse is actually true.

Hobbes

eth0_ wrote:

It's pretty insulting to refer to it as 'racism'. Travellers are just a group of people who chose to drop out of society and live parasitically.

Unless you're referring to actual Romany Gypsies, and not Irish knackers.

Again read the link I posted it goes into detail better then I can. Btw Knacker is also a derogatory term so would be classed as racism too.

Sleepy

How is it racism unless the group of people are actually of a different ethnicity than you? As far as I can tell the travelling community in Ireland are mainly caucasion and Irish in descent.

Calling someone rascist for a general dislike and (reasonably justified) mistrust of the travelling community is akin to calling me a rascist because I'll believe that anyone wearing a "People's Republic of Cork" t-shirt is a dickhead until they've proven themselves otherwise.

fischerspooner

The only run ins with travellers I've had lately have been bad ones. First one was when they started smoking in my local and then abusing the staff when asked to stop, hurling racist comments at the Chinese staff etc.
Second time was a repeat of that scene in a different pub. Apart from that the one traveller I do know (not very well), is now in the joy for posession of 50,000 euros worth of coke.
I think that they grow up in a lawless environment, where no one has any respect for society or authorities. This is why they go nuts when in pubs etc.
They don't affect my life in any way but I think it's disgusting the way they leave areas like rubbish tips when they move site, they should be punished for that.

Hobbes

Sleepy wrote:

How is it racism unless the group of people are actually of a different ethnicity than you? As far as I can tell the travelling community in Ireland are mainly caucasion and Irish in descent.

ffs does no one actually research anything anymore, here let me hold some of you peoples hands...

http://www.exchangehouse.ie/ireland.htm

Denial of Racism
While there is a willingness to acknowledge that there is widespread prejudice towards Travellers in Irish society and also a recognition of discrimination against Travellers there is still strong resistance among the Irish public, to calling the treatment of Travellers racist.... Secondly, there is a tendency to see racism only in relation to skin colour.... For instance, it is frequently said that Travellers cannot experience racism because they are white, are not 'a different race' nor a different nationality.

This denial, confusion, as well as a tendency to blame the victim is evident in this excerpt from a written submission by an Irish MEP to the Committee of Inquiry into Racism and Xenophobia in 1990:

"Ireland is a racially homogeneous country with no ethnic minority groups. As a consequence there are no racial problems of the kind experienced in countries with such groups. Neither is there a large presence of foreigners. . . the position could alter if the influx became sustained. . . there is however a minority group of travelling people giving rise to some of the problems associated with racism.3"

2. Eurobarometer Opinion Poll No. 47.1, Racism and Xenophobia in Europe, 1997.
3. Quoted in O'Connell, John. Reach Out, Pavee Point, 1994.

There is a lot more to that as well. It is a good read. I'd assume anyone who thinks themselves not a racist actually read it.

OMcGovern

billy the squid wrote:

Firstly I am reporting this post for the terminology used in the above paragraph.

Again if you find someone breaking the law, call the guards, it would be more effective than posting hate on the internet.

1. This is a public forum, and people with a variety of opinions should be allowed to express them here in whatever language is appropriate to communicate that across. I see the political correctness brigade has trained you well... you've recycled their opinions.

2. I did call the guards about the road rage incident. But when they're driving a car with false reg plates the Guards are impotent. They said "they'ld look out for him".... wow... I can sleep well at night knowing that.

Hobbes wrote:

If you had sat the new Driving Test exam you would of known that the correct response was do to do nothing. Saying "Flash your lights" would of failed that question as it is inciting road rage.

The correct response was to do nothing ? Rubbish.
I didn't incite road rage.
This guys driving was erratic enough to be a danger to me.
He needed to be made aware that his maneoveur was too close to my car for
safety. For many reasons he may not have seen me, if I was in his blind spot, or he had broken mirrors.

When I flashed my lights, his reaction was to immediately slam on the brakes in front of me, and throw stuff at my car. That's a criminal offense.

A colleague in work had a similar experience on the Sandyford roundabout, when a hiace went around the full roundabout in the outer lane, cutting across him. He beeped, and the van gave chase and a van load of knackers got out looking for a fight. I was surprised that I heard a similar story.

Hobbes wrote:

I am also curious how the fuk people know they (and when I say they I mean all of them) don't pay taxes. Do yous take a census or something?

How many knackers have you been served by in shops, garages, in offices, etc ? Have you ever seen a knacker doing a normal permanent full time job?
If any of them have jobs, it's probably "cash in hand" jobs, with no contribution to the taxman/society.

Ps. I know "knackers" is a derogatory term.... I see no reason to be polite to them. I believe in "calling a spade, a spade".... and yes, I know where that phrase comes from too !

Hobbes

OMcGovern wrote:

1. This is a public forum, and people with a variety of opinions should be allowed to express them here in whatever language is appropriate to communicate that across.

It is public up to a point. Despite what you think you can't post what you like here.

The correct response was to do nothing ? Rubbish.
I didn't incite road rage.
This guys driving was erratic enough to be a danger to me.

That is immaterial. You think its Rubbish? Go buy a recent book on the rules of the road and look up the section relating to road rage.

I did the test earlier this year and I got that very question so I know for a fact it is part of the rules of the road.

his reaction was to immediately slam on the brakes in front of me, and throw stuff at my car. That's a criminal offense.

True and true he is was driving incorrectly however you were still breaking the rules of the road by flashing him. Apart from inciting road rage you could distract the driver enough that they could cause an accident.

Your correct response is to slow to a safe driving distance and carry on. If you at that point believe the person is a serious danger to people on the road then call the guards and report it.

You did report it right?

If any of them have jobs, it's probably "cash in hand" jobs, with no contribution to the taxman/society.

Speculation with no facts to back up as usual.

Ps. I know "knackers" is a derogatory term.... I see no reason to be polite to them.

Which explains a lot.

Sam Vimes

Sleepy wrote:

How is it racism unless the group of people are actually of a different ethnicity than you? As far as I can tell the travelling community in Ireland are mainly caucasion and Irish in descent.

Calling someone rascist for a general dislike and (reasonably justified) mistrust of the travelling community is akin to calling me a rascist because I'll believe that anyone wearing a "People's Republic of Cork" t-shirt is a dickhead until they've proven themselves otherwise.

when he says racism, he means prejudice. when you generalise over a group of people its prejudice, racism is just a handier term to use. i'm usually on the other side in threads such as these but i've never had an experience with a traveller that's shown them to be anything other than thieving scum with no regard for anyone, including themselves.

near me there's a place where the government built some houses for travellers. you'd think they'd take a bit of pride in the place since they live there permanently but there's tons of rubbish in the middle of the road in this little cul de sac. they don't seem to care that they live in filth and other people have to pay to clean up their mess

with most racism, its a few bad eggs making the rest look bad but with the travellers, as far as i can see, its one or two decent ones giving the rest of the scum a good name

it pisses me off that they come to my door to beg and then go home to their 70 inch plasma screen tv. i know some of them have them because a mates dad fit a carpet in one of their caravans and then when he asked for the money every one of them insisted it was someone else's job to pay him. 2 hours later he left and swore never to deal with travellers again


calling someone a n!gger is racist and clearly wrong. they were born that colour and there's nothing they can do about it unless they go down the michael jackson route. on the other hand, all a traveller has to do is walk off the halting site, have a shower and get a job. in other words they choose to be travellers, so disliking them is no more racist than disliking a member of the kkk

what kind of key can get into any locked house or car in the world? a pikey

OMcGovern

Hobbes wrote:

Go buy a recent book on the rules of the road and look up the section relating to road rage.

True and true he is was driving incorrectly however you were still breaking the rules of the road by flashing him. Apart from inciting road rage you could distract the driver enough that they could cause an accident.

Your correct response is to slow to a safe driving distance and carry on. If you at that point believe the person is a serious danger to people on the road then call the guards and report it.

You did report it right?

Flashing my lights once should not incite "road rage" or an attack.
There are plenty of things which aren't in the Rules of the Road which are accepted practise on Irish roads.

What do you do if someone is driving with no lights on at nighttime ?
I imagine you follow the rules of the road perfectly, slow down, and watch with anticipation for them to crash or be crashed into..... comfortable in the knowledge that you followed the rules of the road to the letter.

And yes, as I mentioned before.... I did report the road rage attack.
The knacker must've had false plates, or swapped around car regs in his junk yard.

micosavo

We are all making valid points here, for both sides. Lets not get ourselves polarized from each other, it is getting quite heated.

There is no solution to this problem. And it is a problem. My comments, and I am sure nobody's, are not racist. I will not entertain any rebuttle on that fact, at all. I will accept the truth in all other points, for and against. But I can't believe you can be racist for saying that a particular section of your own society is creating mounds of rubbish on the side of the road amongst other things.

In saying that, granted, they are marginalized and under-eductated but they make not attempt to help themselves or get out of the position they are in

Hobbes

OMcGovern wrote:

Flashing my lights once should not incite "road rage" or an attack.
There are plenty of things which aren't in the Rules of the Road which are accepted practise on Irish roads.

That is not one of them. There are many things that can incite someone to attack you, if they cut you off and you call them a bastard or honk your horn. In the Rules it clearly says in such an instance to carry on as before and not to get worked up on it.

What do you do if someone is driving with no lights on at nighttime ?

That instance it would be ok to flash your lights for a second.

Which is not the same as the senario you said earlier. You were clearly flashing your lights to show you were pissed off after the fact.

Again, go get the rules of the road and read them.

The knacker must've had false plates, or swapped around car regs in his junk yard.

:rolleyes:

Hobbes

Commander Vimes wrote:

when he says racism, he means prejudice.

Actually prejudice is just a part of Racism. Generally racism can also refer to having the power to carry out discriminatory practices.

And quit with the offensive jokes.

Sam Vimes

Hobbes wrote:

Actually prejudice is just a part of Racism. Generally racism can also refer to having the power to carry out discriminatory practices.

racism is against another race. its a subset of prejudice. racism is prejudice but predjudice is not necessarily racism.

Hobbes wrote:

And quit with the offensive jokes.

but i like the jokes :v: