travellers in flash cars??

BigEejit

I had a look at that website and what is held up as proof that Ireland is racist is sometimes funny but mostly stupid ..... eg:

Individuals often experience verbal or physical abuse because of their identity.

I wonder does that include getting assaulted with bits of slate as I was - note that after assaulting me the traveller youths ran back to the bullring where the Gardai WOULD NOT follow, they'd bloody follow me to where I lived if I had done the same

Individual Travellers have also reported incidents of insurance companies refusing to provide them with motor insurance cover

as I have been, but its a big problem when a traveller is refused?

A number of public houses consistently refuse to serve Travellers, while others do so now and then. Travellers frequently have difficulty obtaining hotels for wedding receptions.

I've been barred from pubs before (with a stag party) ... whats the big deal .... the author is having a laugh surely, traveller weddings are known everywhere by their propensity to become warzones - I have seen a pub in Ballinasloe after a traveller scrap during the horse fair - chairs that had been bolted down had been pulled out of the floor and used as weapons, the violence was incredible

For many years Travellers experienced segregation in the provision of social welfare services. Travellers who wish to avail of supplementary welfare in Dublin have to accept a 'special' segregated service

I used to be good friends with the Postmasters son in the area where I grew up. The tales he had of traveller exploitation of the social welfare system in pre computer times was legendary - including claiming in multiple places, claiming for more childers than you actually had etc... they brought in policies about how travellers claimed the dole to crack down on this

Travellers are also critical of a system which they feel undermines or largely ignores their identity in the curriculum and school ethos despite the extra capitation grants provided by the government for schools with Travellers among their pupils.

undermines traveller identity in the curriculum??? they want travellers to have their own curriculum?? surely this would further marginalise travellers ....

Sometimes evictions are carried out when Traveller men are away, leaving women to deal with the brunt of male verbal and physical abuse. But above all Traveller women, as mothers, home-makers and carers, have to make do with low incomes, in poor living circumstances, without basic facilities such as running water and sanitation.

oh, no men here because they are out ... ok then we'll wait ...... you'd never see a male traveller at a camp again .....
as for low incomes, poor living circumstances - that is an issue of their own making. Get a job and buy a house like everyone else!!!!!

ferdi

compelling post there BigEejit

Hobbes

Are you qualified to even have an opinion? Have you ever had dealings with, met many or had 'run ins' with any travellers? Do you know any personally?

yes I have, I even metion this earlier.

ferdi wrote:

seriously man, this use of internet links as being the be all and end all of truth and fact is becoming irritating.

Well I would prefer more valid sources for peoples comments then "I was drinking the other night when..." or "I work for the Dublin housing authority but I am not allowed tell you".

I linked to various resources. Now I am more then welcome to look at the "anti-travellers" sources to back up what they are saying but to date I have to see anything beyond name calling.

ferdi

Hobbes wrote:

Well I would prefer more valid sources for peoples comments then "I was drinking the other night when..."

we will have to agree to disagree then i guess. i am more likely to believe someone giving a personal experience than a website.

eth0_

I really have tried to be open minded about travellers. But I have never met a decent one. Even the ones who might be friendly to your face wouldn't think twice about beating you if they saw you look sideways at their wife/cousin/both.

That's something no one has touched on yet, the interbreeding that goes on within the travelling communities.


I used to work with a guy who's parents are travellers but you'd still know he was one. I remember him taking exception to the word 'knacker' being used (not about him or even about a traveller) in the office...and then a few months later we found out he was thieving left, right and centre and selling laptops, computers etc on ebay and on here. Sort of cements my (justified) prejudices!

A guy I know had stuff stolen from his house last year, including a police scanner radio. He actually came home and found running out the backdoor, heard the traveller accents. He put an ad in the buy and sell, as it's a pretty specialised item he was pretty sure whoever would ring him about it could be the person who burgled his property, sure enough, a traveller rings him "I see ye're looking for a police scanner, boss?".

Then the guards recovered some of his stuff from Dunsink halting site.
They're so f*cking devious they just dump the stolen goods in a shed, so the guards can't put the blame on any one person.

BigEejit

Moved from the other large post:

Also on the education of traveller children:

Significant progress has been made in the provision of education for Traveller children in recent decades. This is evidenced in the increased participation in the education system. However there still remains a substantial number of Traveller children who do not attend primary school on a full-time, regular basis. This can be due to the living circumstances of the parents or to difficulty in gaining access to schools. A large number of Traveller children underachieve in school. The lack of statistical information on Traveller participation in education makes it difficult to evaluate the relative participation and outcomes for Traveller boys and girls in the education system.

It is estimated that only about 10% of Travellers continue on to second level and very few of these complete the full cycle. Only a handful of Traveller go on to third level.

That to me looks like its the travellers themselves perpetuating their own problems ... 10% go on to secondary?? the mind boggles

And on work:

Traveller participation in the mainstream labour force is very low. This low participation is attributed to a number of factors: a preference for self-employment and work in the Traveller economy, discrimination, lack of skills and qualifications, low pay and poor work conditions, nomadism. The vast majority of Traveller households are dependent on social welfare.

What the hell is the traveller economy? ... as can be seen from the so called facts on the website, if someone only has primary level education, how the hell can he do a job that requires mathematical skills? he cant, so he ends up on low paid jobs and then takes his childers out of school before secondary and blames the Irish government for all their problems... and so the cycle continues
Finally:

(a) Traveller Population in Ireland
Estimated total 27,000
An annual count of the number of Traveller households is the source of information on the Traveller population in Ireland. The 1994 count showed that there were 4,905 Traveller households in the country. The projected figure for the year 2000 is 4,905 households.

ok then ... no more households

(e) Accommodation
In the context of statutory provision of social housing the local authorities provide standard houses for some Traveller households and in addition Traveller-specific accommodation as follows: group housing, permanent halting sites, and temporary halting sites. The 1995 Task Force Report drew attention to the deficiencies in this provision: 1,085 Traveller households living in trailers squatting on roadsides; 275 households in temporary sites; no provision for transient families; lack of facilities and/or culturally inappropriate facilities; lack of planning for the projected Traveller population increase; absence of a comprehensive government plan to accommodate Travellers.

The Task Force called for the provision of 3,100 units of additional accommodation by the year 2000, at a cost of IR£218 million.

what the fup?? what are culturally inappropriate facilities? they have a different culture to each other? lack of planning for projected population increase....? I thought they werent.... transient families ... how many halting sites for them? ....

Look at what they want and ask yourself do you think you can ever give it all to them?

BigEejit

And if anyone wanted to know if travellers are treated differently by the courts I would have to say yes, they appear to get more lenient sentences than would otherwise be issued:
eg. from the examiner (http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2000/11/09/current/ipage_19.htm)

Two men who were involved in a gunfight between rival Traveller factions in which a man was killed have been given four years suspended sentences by Dublin Circuit Criminal Court.James Hanrahan, 27, and William Cawley, 23, both formerly of St Bernadette’s Park, Ballycoolin, Dublin 15, pleaded guilty to unlawful possession of a firearm on March 23, 1999.The man who died in the gunfight at the St Bernadette’s Park halting site on that occasion was Matthew Hand. He was with two other men, Larry Power and Ronald Wilde, who have been jailed for five years and seven years, respectively, for their roles in the shooting.Defence counsel, Mr Padraig Dwyer BL claimed Power, Wilde and Hand were the aggressors and described them as criminals who all had a number of previous convictions.Judge Elizabeth Dunne described the use of firearms to solve arguments as deplorable and dangerous. She gave both men credit for their co operation with gardaí.Detective Garda Maurice Downey told Mr Dominic McGinn BL, prosecuting, that the row was over halting site facilities.Hanrahan and Cawley were approached by Hand, Power and Wilde who left after an angry exchange of words. As they drove away Hanrahan fired two shots into the air.Det Garda Downey said the three men returned the next day withshotguns. Shots were fired in an ensuing gunfight, including the two that killed Hand.Mr Dwyer said both men had suffered since the incident.They had to move because they were in fear for their lives. He said they had the guns to protect themselves and their families.

Hobbes

BigEejit wrote:

And if anyone wanted to know if travellers are treated differently by the courts I would have to say yes, they appear to get more lenient sentences than would otherwise be issued:
eg. from the examiner (http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2000/11/09/current/ipage_19.htm)

What I read of that is the two guys helped the Gardai while those who actually killed someone went to jail for the crimes. Or did I miss something?

What the hell is the traveller economy? ...

It was explained on the same page you were reading from. With regards to your other comments, which certainly thier own environment is a factor (it even states it on the page you were reading) it is not the only cause.

For example. Would you let your child play with Traveller children? I would guess you wouldn't because you believe them all to be thieves and scum, thereby setting up segretation at a young age. That segregation carries on with you in life.

Also you pull out the bits for your own argument. For example jobs. While a large number have educational problems those that don't have to give fake addresses to actually get a job and have been instances of people fired once it was found out they were a traveller.

Then the guards recovered some of his stuff from Dunsink halting site.
They're so f*cking devious they just dump the stolen goods in a shed, so the guards can't put the blame on any one person.

Well you could say that of any thief. When we got our house robbed the thieves put them into ditches in a nearby field and covered them in plastic. Only reason we know this because one of them bringing the portable telly home on his shoulder was spotted by my sisters BF. He wasn't a traveller btw.

Tusky

My main problem with travelers is that their way of life is DEAD. Fine, many years ago they could travel around the country doing jobs for people and making a living. Ireland has changed. There is no place for them, especially not in a city such as Dublin. They cant expect to live on the side of the road....why would they want to anyway ? I think the original poster is surprised that they are driving flash cars, as I would be too, because surely they should be putting that money towards a HOUSE or some other form of housing.

I think one of the main reasons people get annoyed with is this. If you see someone living at the side of the road with children in a caravan you think " they must be down on their luck, life must be hard ETC". but then you see them rolling out in a brand new BMW and this annoys people, as it should.
They drive that car on irish roads dont they ? Yet they pay no TAX to fund these roads.

This, however, is not the point that annoys me the most. What annoys me is when I see traveller children. It is no way to raise a child and it, in my opinion, is highly iresponsable. If you want to live on the side of the road as an outcast of society FINE, but dont bring children up like that that have had no choice in the matter.

Before people come on flaming me saying " I bet you havent met any travellers, they are not all the same ETC" I have met plenty and have had plenty of bad experiences, I wont bring those experiences into this though as I dont believe they are all bad people. I just have a problem with the way they live.

Tusky

Hobbes wrote:

Some hard facts as a traveller.
- You are more likely to die younger then normal Irish population (avg 12 years)
- child mortality rate (births) is over double the norm for Ireland.
- You are more likely not be able to read or write.

Why is this ? Whos fault is this ? Could it be anything to do with horrible living conditions and bad diet ? All the more reason NOT to bring up children in this way. I really feel for people born into a traveller family. There is no reason why they cant go to school or be thought by their parents... oh wait, the parents probably dont care. The facts that you posted above dont just HAPPEN. They happen because of living in a certain way.

- You are liable to be moved on (eviction) with no warning. This is in areas where they are legally allowed to park thier caravans.
- You are more likely not to have basic amenities others have like running water/toilets.

Of coure you sare liable to be 'moved on' and rightly so. If I bought a caravan and parked on the side of the road, leaving rubbish around the place I would EXPECT to be moved on.

Again, of course they wont, in alot of cases, have running water. They are parked at the side of the road. Again, whos fault is it that they might not have running water ? Its something they are just gonna have to get used to if they are going to live in this anti-social irrisponcible way.

- You are less likely to get a medical card.

this is purely a TAX issue. If you can prove that you pay taxs and your earnings are below the required ammount, you will get a medical card. However, it may be tough to prove that you are earning below a certain ammount if you are driving a BMW....
[/quote]

- Your area is most likely to be infested with rats.

this point is laughable... IF YOU LIVE AT THE SIDE OF THE ROAD AND DONT GET RID OF YOUR RUBBISH YOU ARE GOING TO GET RATS. This is something everyone has to deal with.

- You are liable to be banned for no reason from various establishments. (despite this being illegal)

while I dont think its right to ban someone just because of who they are, I wouldnt look down on someone for banning a traveller out of fear for himself or his customers.

cournioni

Pimp my Hiace, boss.

http://joypop.srv3.pmachinehosting.com/images/uploads/hiace.jpg

the_menace

Tusky wrote:

Why is this ? Whos fault is this ? Could it be anything to do with horrible living conditions and bad diet ? All the more reason NOT to bring up children in this way. I really feel for people born into a traveller family. There is no reason why they cant go to school or be thought by their parents... oh wait, the parents probably dont care. The facts that you posted above dont just HAPPEN. They happen because of living in a certain way.



Of coure you sare liable to be 'moved on' and rightly so. If I bought a caravan and parked on the side of the road, leaving rubbish around the place I would EXPECT to be moved on.

Again, of course they wont, in alot of cases, have running water. They are parked at the side of the road. Again, whos fault is it that they might not have running water ? Its something they are just gonna have to get used to if they are going to live in this anti-social irrisponcible way.




this is purely a TAX issue. If you can prove that you pay taxs and your earnings are below the required ammount, you will get a medical card. However, it may be tough to prove that you are earning below a certain ammount if you are driving a BMW....

this point is laughable... IF YOU LIVE AT THE SIDE OF THE ROAD AND DONT GET RID OF YOUR RUBBISH YOU ARE GOING TO GET RATS. This is something everyone has to deal with.



while I dont think its right to ban someone just because of who they are, I wouldnt look down on someone for banning a traveller out of fear for himself or his customers.

Stop that now. There's nothing wrong with the way they live. Anyone who says otherwise is a racist bigot. They're a grand bunch of lads.

BigEejit

Hobbes wrote:

What I read of that is the two guys helped the Gardai while those who actually killed someone went to jail for the crimes. Or did I miss something?

You most certainly did ... the two people who went to jail were put in for 5 years and 7 years ...... in this country that would equate to 3 and 5 tops .... for murder

It was explained on the same page you were reading from.

I looked at that page again and found no mention of the traveller economy. Please post up the description of what the traveller economy is, what are its driving forces etc.

With regards to your other comments, which certainly thier own environment is a factor (it even states it on the page you were reading) it is not the only cause.
For example. Would you let your child play with Traveller children? I would guess you wouldn't because you believe them all to be thieves and scum, thereby setting up segretation at a young age. That segregation carries on with you in life.

If there were some who were permanently in the community and were not filthy dirty then I would let them play together in a playground.... SAME AS WITH ANY OTHER CHILD

Also you pull out the bits for your own argument. For example jobs. While a large number have educational problems those that don't have to give fake addresses to actually get a job and have been instances of people fired once it was found out they were a traveller.

I pulled out bits? .... I used pretty much the whole thing ... the bits I left out had little or no information and facts ... just "woe is me" stuff
There is a way to actually give an address, move to a house!!!! ... its hard enough hiring someone with only a primary level education but to find out that they were telling lies about their address is a kick in the pants.

By the way, there is a flag making company in Galway that used to be near where I worked some years ago. There were no travellers working in it, the only traveller with any connection to it was the owner... shows how much the owner thought of people in his own community

Beer is Life

Hobbes wrote:

The items he listed apart from "They have your shoes on" (racist comment) could refer to anyone else in society. About the only thing personally that I could say with some guessing is that accent only (which isn't far off from a cork accent tbh) or if you know any words of "camp" which tbh I am not even sure if that slang/language extends beyond my local area.



I was referring to a UN Commission on Human Rights, report called "Elimination of Racism and Racial Discrimination" (23rd November 1994). I even link to it for you, guess your not bothering to read.

I'm Irish too you know but I don't see the report as a personal attack against myself but instead showing something that is flawed with our society. Thats what i and the others in this thread are doing, simply showing something thats flawed in our society. 27,000 travellers in this country, yet just look at all the bad experiences. Thats a problem



So what is your answer then? Give up on them? What do you think would have happened if i went around to wherever they lived and told them their kids should be in school? HA, id be run out of the place.



The racist part is extending that to "All travellers". You assume Traveller = uneducated. Up until you actually interview the person you aren't going to know. I never said all, i said the majority, and thats a fact, you said so yourself.

Did you know in England an Irish guy was refused a job because "All Irish are drunks and would probably turn up for work drunk" and he sued that company and won (happened some years back).

Same sort of generalisation. Or the best to date was the national outcry up as far as govenmental level when Eastenders portrayed Irish as wife beating drunks who like to steal. A lot of people to get outraged over that but when there are only 27,000 of you its easier for people to make comments and not expect to be slapped for it. Show me where they portrayed all the Irish as wife beating drunks. Im sure it was just within the story that he happened to be Irish.


Again read the link I posted has a nice bit about "I'm No Racist, and What Is It Anyway?", explains it a bit better.



Which still doesn't answer my question. Are you saying we shouldn't give them houses (discriminate in the selection process) or complain that they won't take a house? Yes they should have housing and yes we should complain when they destroy them. Whats wrong here?



I'd expect the person to research why I am thinking the way I am by reading where I am coming from. I may be right or I may be wrong but you won't know that until you research the facts.

.

woody

the_menace wrote:

Stop that now. There's nothing wrong with the way they live. Anyone who says otherwise is a racist bigot. They're a grand bunch of lads.

Bunch of criminals clear and simple

the_menace

woody wrote:

Bunch of criminals clear and simple

ROFL. I concur.

Hobbes

Beer is Life wrote:

.

Can you learn to use the quoting system properly.

Thats what i and the others in this thread are doing, simply showing something thats flawed in our society. 27,000 travellers in this country, yet just look at all the bad experiences. Thats a problem

And as I said do you have details on the extent of the issue? How many of the 27,000 do you think are criminals seeing as you said majority? 51% 90%

What do you think would have happened if i went around to wherever they lived and told them their kids should be in school? HA, id be run out of the place.

I wasn't asking what you would do personally. I am saying if the issue is so widespread and you appear to work in that area what is a solution you suggest to ensure these children not only learn but are integrated into society more?

Show me where they portrayed all the Irish as wife beating drunks. Im sure it was just within the story that he happened to be Irish.

The show was many years ago and initially saw it on another show that was doing a documentry on Eastenders. I remember it because it mentioned that even the Irish government complained to the BBC

Despite being long ago I was able to dig out a story on it though it is more saying "Ireland.. get over it".

http://www.wgazette.com/autumn00-irish.html

Giblet

the_menace wrote:

ROFL. I concur.

I see you are not longer taking part in this discussion, so please refrain from posting in it.

Sam Vimes

let's put it this way: any time i've been to an area that's classed as a "bad" i've certainly seen the scum that gives the area its name but i've also seen the good people, and they've always been the majority.

the only exception has been the travellers. i have never met anyone who has anything good to say about an experience with them. bet you all a euro no one here has had one

Hobbes

BigEejit wrote:

You most certainly did ... the two people who went to jail were put in for 5 years and 7 years ...... in this country that would equate to 3 and 5 tops .... for murder

Do you have examples of where non-travellers have had longer sentances for the same kind of crime? Not mention the report is a bit sketchy on the full aspects of the case.

I looked at that page again and found no mention of the traveller economy. Please post up the description of what the traveller economy is, what are its driving forces etc.

it is was on the exact page you quoted just after it mentions it. I refers to skills that Travellers are known for, example junk, horses, etc.

http://www.paveepoint.ie/fs_work_a.html

If there were some who were permanently in the community and were not filthy dirty then I would let them play together in a playground.... SAME AS WITH ANY OTHER CHILD

So what do you suggest as a solution for this considering a lot of areas are without basic cleaning sources?

There is a way to actually give an address, move to a house!!!! ... its hard enough hiring someone with only a primary level education but to find out that they were telling lies about their address is a kick in the pants.

They have addresses if they are at a halting site. Giving an address as a halting site means they have less chance of getting a job. A bit like when you lived in Darndale/Coolock 20+ years ago.

There were no travellers working in it, the only traveller with any connection to it was the owner... shows how much the owner thought of people in his own community

Ahh ok so one supposed racist employer = he is correct. Thanks for clearing that up.

BizMaker

Earlier Tusky talked about the traveller way of life being dead. I can just about remember the days when travellers went around the country doing odd jobs. These are the positive experiences I’ve had with travellers. Unfortunately, my experiences since that time have been negative.

I believe that travellers have a right to co-exist with the settled community and I would hate to see the extinction of their traditional way of life. But, and there is always a ‘but’, they must live within the confines of the law.

As an aside: I did not think that this discussion would be allowed to evolve, so I am thankful that the thread was not locked. There were a lot of valid points made on both sides and this is what free expression is all about.

As an aside to my aside: While I do not agree with most of Hobbes assertions, fair play to him for battling against the masses.

Victor

A builder I used to work with employed a traveller as a blocklayer. Seemed like a nice enough guy.

I would trust the traveller first though.

BigEejit

Hobbes wrote:

Do you have examples of where non-travellers have had longer sentances for the same kind of crime? Not mention the report is a bit sketchy on the full aspects of the case.

I found this link but that only tells us that murder is mandatory life .... maybe you are correct and there were some seriously mitigating circumstances

it is was on the exact page you quoted just after it mentions it. I refers to skills that Travellers are known for, example junk, horses, etc.

http://www.paveepoint.ie/fs_work_a.html

Ah ... didnt see that link ... so traveller economy means buying wire and horses and trying to make them appear better and sell them on.... not many at that now are there?

other point of note on that page was:
According to Census 2002, 73% of Traveller men are unemployed compared to 9.4% of the general population.... 73%, that seems to be far more than could be explained away by poor education ...

So what do you suggest as a solution for this considering a lot of areas are without basic cleaning sources?

You will notice that I also said permanent, if they are permanently in an area they will have surely arranged a supply of water etc.... Also IIRC in Tralee the swimming pool used to be crammed with travellers on Sunday down for a wash ... there is no reason for someone who is in an area permanently to be dirty...

They have addresses if they are at a halting site. Giving an address as a halting site means they have less chance of getting a job. A bit like when you lived in Darndale/Coolock 20+ years ago.

do the addresses have "dirty halting site" written on them? ... very few employers would know that a particular address that is a good distance away is a halting site .....

junkyard

To be honest, we could have this argument until the cows come home, some are pro and good for them, some are against and not without good reason. Personally when the facts and figures add up I'd certainly give them a second chance but until then Its a case of once, twice even third time bitten, twice shy.

StupidLikeAFox

In fairness I wouldnt trust pavee point, rarely have they spoke out AGAINST the people they represent

Hobbes

ColHol wrote:

In fairness I wouldnt trust pavee point, rarely have they spoke out AGAINST the people they represent

Which is normal of most sites tbh. Everything has a bias. But I would like to see some anti statistics beyond hearsay.

Doctor Benway

Commander Vimes wrote:

let's put it this way: any time i've been to an area that's classed as a "bad" i've certainly seen the scum that gives the area its name but i've also seen the good people, and they've always been the majority.

the only exception has been the travellers. i have never met anyone who has anything good to say about an experience with them. bet you all a euro no one here has had one

A Traveller family rented the house beside mine for a year, up until last summer. I had no problems at all with them. They were less noisy than the couple who were there previously, and on several occasions they took in deliveries that arrived when I was out at work, and brought them round when I got home.

There, now you owe everyone here a Euro.

Of course, I wouldn't use my experience of one family to make any judgements about Travellers as a group - leaping to conclusions about large numbers of people on the basis of personal experience is pretty stupid. Similarly, has it never occurred to people around here that perhaps the reason people have lots of 'bad' stories about Travellers, as opposed to 'good' ones, is because you're far more likely to remember bad experiences anyway. The anecdote about the flashing lights is a perfect example: can anyone give memorable accounts of 'good' driving?

billy the squid

Commander Vimes wrote:

let's put it this way: any time i've been to an area that's classed as a "bad" i've certainly seen the scum that gives the area its name but i've also seen the good people, and they've always been the majority.

the only exception has been the travellers. i have never met anyone who has anything good to say about an experience with them. bet you all a euro no one here has had one

you owe me a euro.

nlgbbbblth

billy the squid wrote:

you owe me a euro.

and me.

I have never gotten any hassle/had a bad experience with a member of the travelling community.

That's not to say there are no bad travellers - of course there are. But to brand them as all pr*cks is not right.

I don't like their accents though.

One query I have seen raised or asked before is

- do gay/lesbian travellers exist? and if so, would they be accepted by their own community?

Interesting one. I have never met a gay or lesbian traveller.

billy the squid

actually I've been to two boards beers, and wasn't kicked out of either of them nor get into fights at either of them, so i guess you owe everyone from boards that has met me a euro.