Post primary return to schools roadmap

Alex86Eire wrote: »

We don't have spare classrooms to fit overflow kids into.

I would have assumed this is a widespread problem. We normally have 12 Junior classes - four groups in each of the three years with 30 in each class. If the idea of the "satellite room" as it was called in the documentation, which is supposed to accommodate the overflow 6, is to come to pass it means planning will have to allow for an extra 12 rooms for every class. The rooms simply are not there. And that's before you deal with the absolute fiction the equipment will be in place and working constantly to beam live action from the classroom to them and 12 extra teachers will materialise to supervise them. And "the hall" has very limited utility in solving this either. Yes, you'd get 72 kids into the hall but not in a way they could view 12 classes simultaneously.

And bear in mind that TYs will probably be around most of time they'd have been gone in previous times so even that bit of wriggle-room is not going to be available.

I'd imagine that in many schools these extra 6 will be amalgamated into other groups of 24 in another room and just supervised for the class, or in a large group in the hall. The resources, technical, physical nor personnel will not be there to do otherwise. Presumably whoever came up with the idea of a "satellite room" in that plan is well aware of this but obviously has to be seen to be ensuring that they are being properly "educated" at all times.

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Has anyone seen the subject-specific plans the dept promised us yet?

On the timeline for a Halloween drop.

RealJohn wrote: »

On this, does anyone know if the rumour (which I’ve always propagated, without any actual confirmation of its accuracy) that only science teachers are allowed/insured to take classes in science labs (and presumably the same applies or doesn’t in other practical subjects) is true?
Are non-science teachers allowed to take classes in science labs?
If not, where does it say that?

No idea. Its the first I've heard of it!

km79 wrote: »

“Asked when interviewed on the 6pm RTÉ TV news if schools might not re-open as scheduled, he said that clearly that topic would be part of Nphet’s considerations on Monday.”

Dr Glynn quoted in the Irish times

I saw that interview. Reading between the lines in that interview I think it's a very distinct possibility schools won't reopen physically anyway. He very clearly swerved the direct question on whether it was possible they would remain shut. And also pointedly referred to the fact that "it's now less than two weeks away" which was not a comment without significance I think.

If figures maintain the same momentum this week (from Tuesday on) with the widespread nature of it across so many counties, and the amount which is unidentified in source, I'd say they couldn't stand over giving the go-ahead for the mobilisation of the numbers of people reopening schools will mean. Varadker must be champing at the bit to do his "straight-talking-Leo-please-vote-for-me" persona and announce it ahead of any actual decision.

Rosita wrote: »

I saw that interview. Reading between the lines in that interview I think it's a very distinct possibility schools won't reopen physically anyway. He very clearly swerved the direct question on whether it was possible they would remain shut. And also pointedly referred to the fact that "it's now less than two weeks away" which was not a comment without significance I think.

If figures maintain the same momentum this week (from Tuesday on) with the widespread nature of it across so many counties, and the amount which is unidentified in source, I'd say they couldn't stand over giving the go-ahead for the mobilisation of the numbers of people reopening schools will mean. Varadker must be champing at the bit to do his "straight-talking-Leo-please-vote-for-me" persona and announce it ahead of any actual decision.

I have to believe that the Dept have a comprehensive document on remote teaching /blended learning ready to go as plan B.
I absolutely do not believe they do however .
Anyone seen or heard from Norma lately ?
Oh she is on holidays you say ........

Rosita wrote: »

I saw that interview. Reading between the lines in that interview I think it's a very distinct possibility schools won't reopen physically anyway. He very clearly swerved the direct question on whether it was possible they would remain shut. And also pointedly referred to the fact that "it's now less than two weeks away" which was not a comment without significance I think.

If figures maintain the same momentum this week (from Tuesday on) with the widespread nature of it across so many counties, and the amount which is unidentified in source, I'd say they couldn't stand over giving the go-ahead for the mobilisation of the numbers of people reopening schools will mean. Varadker must be champing at the bit to do his "straight-talking-Leo-please-vote-for-me" persona and announce it ahead of any actual decision.

For all of Varadkars faults, at least he will come out and state his feelings on a matter. Martin and in particular Norma Foley have simply disappeared and are not discussing school returns at all. Giving Education (which Id argue was the 2nd most important portfolio after Health for this new government) to a completely inexperienced minister could be the biggest mistake FF do.

maynooth_rules wrote: »

For all of Varadkars faults, at least he will come out and state his feelings on a matter. Martin and in particular Norma Foley have simply disappeared and are not discussing school returns at all. Giving Education (which Id argue was the 2nd most important portfolio after Health for this new government) to a completely inexperienced minister could be the biggest mistake FF do.

This was exactly what I said when she was appointed
It also shows where education lies in their list of priorities

maynooth_rules wrote: »

For all of Varadkars faults, at least he will come out and state his feelings on a matter. Martin and in particular Norma Foley have simply disappeared and are not discussing school returns at all. Giving Education (which Id argue was the 2nd most important portfolio after Health for this new government) to a completely inexperienced minister could be the biggest mistake FF do.

To be honest I think most politics that is useful is done away from the megaphone. Varadker said publicly the LC would go ahead "by hook or by crook" and just because those were his feelings on the matter it didn't advance us much. I also doubt that the Minister in any Department is taking decisions in isolation. There has been a permanent civil service in the Dept of Ed since long before Foley was heard tell of and I'm fairly sure they are following the same policy trajectory irrespective of who the Minister is. Though it is true to say that she doesn't have the cuteness of an experienced politician like Varadker who can give the illusion of activity with a few judicious comments.

Bobtheman wrote: »

What about the rest of EU? They are going ahead with school openings?

Presumably they are, and politically that might be a significant question. Didn't Varadker comment recently that we didn't want to be the only country not to seen to not reopen schools? No mention of the infections rate or where we were are likely to be in terms of that. Just an eye on what other countries were at. So chances are they'll want to plough ahead and maybe shrug their shoulders in a month's time if they have to close them again.

However, regarding other countries, the famous Denmark is currently in a worse state than us in terms of infections' growth figure. And there was some delusional commentary about schools' reopening a few months back about some countries which ignored that the schools appeared to have had plenty of space, and held outdoor classes in good weather - options not available to us.

Also bigger countries have the option of regional lockdowns and can cover vast areas in doing so. Notwithstanding the Laois-Offaly-Kildare thing recently it is something we have not tried yet. It might not be as palatable in Ireland as the place of far most significant population density is the capital. Not all countries are as lop-sided population-wise and economically as we have become. That might be an option with schools but Dr Glynn did comment on the number of counties which have recorded infections very recently - every county I think.

Other countries are also a bit more advanced in their counter-Covid strategies (which might in itself have contributed to resurges in fairness) - as in, for example, Italy, has taken the option of closing night-clubs. We haven't even gotten around to opening ordinary pubs never mind night-clubs. So they have low-hanging fruit which might make a difference especially politically before turning to schools' closure.

The one thing that might prompt the government to not reopen schools just yet might be if they feel closure in a month's time is inevitable. Because if closure in a month's time is inevitable then it means that the trajectory of the virus is not controllable in the short-term and the amount of people on the move in schools' reopening would considerably worsen the situation.

Politically it'd probably be easier too to stand in front of a mic with an earnest "we're all in this together" face on you and say that we have to defer opening, rather than standing in front of a mic next month looking like a plank when it was obvious you disregarded what by that stage might appear to have been clear and inevitable to those commentators whose specialist subject is hindsight.

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

She might have been a 'pro teacher' but she hasn't taken a public command of her brief, that is all we will judge her on. She has shown zero leadership in her role at a time when it is very much needed.
Personally think her interview in the Indo has led to her being removed from any situation where her old fashioned ways cannot be twisted. The minister for education should be very much front and centre at this time

Totally agree. The biggest thing that is going to happen in this country in the next two weeks is the reopening of schools. And a week later leaving cert results are to be released. We should be seeing her in the news.

At this stage I’m still seeing Simon Harris making more comments on the health service than Stephen Donnelly and he’s not even health minister anymore. I’m not a FG fan by any means but FF aren’t even at the races at the moment.

[QUOTE=rainbowtrout;114331930

At this stage I’m still seeing Simon Harris making more comments on the health service than Stephen Donnelly and he’s not even health minister anymore. I’m not a FG fan by any means but FF aren’t even at the races at the moment.[/QUOTE]


Harris commented more on Education than the Minister for Education when he was Minister for Health too. Can't help himself. Sure didn't he tell us the LCs would be back during May right after the Education minister announced the revised plans for July/August. I'd say the solo runs of himself and Varadker on social media are very difficult to deal with for their government partners. You have to plough through all the policy quicksand while they are constantly visible and 'straight talking'.

combat14 wrote: »

just heard someone mention today that kids from multiple schools all share the same school buses is this correct does anyone know ... surely this will have to be rectified if that is the case....??!!

This is true.

combat14 wrote: »

just heard someone mention today that kids from multiple schools all share the same school buses is this correct does anyone know ... surely this will have to be rectified if that is the case....??!!

There are two secondary schools on the road my school is on, and at least two primary schools. Most of the students come on Dublin Bus. Do you think they're going to put on ten buses (which would be a conservative estimate - at least one of the schools is big) several times from 7:30 to 9:00 every weekday morning?
There's no way students won't be mixing on buses, in Dublin anyway. I can't imagine they have either of the bus capacity or driver capacity to do it any other way.

What is the current number allowed at an indoor gathering does anyone know?

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Isn't it still 50?

wow is it only still 50 there will be hundreds if not over a thousand co- mingling soon inside some schools around the country ..

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

We have ‘pods’ of 150 odd too. Mostly area specific but then they are travelling for options and science. It’s gas considering the 50 limit at gatherings.

I multiplied out there and even with a cap of 24 I will be seeing 250 students a week. Likely closer to 300 since I have substitution to do too. All of those are close contacts. As in I will have spent 40 minutes minimum in their company

I literally only thought of this today. This is madness. Has anyone in the Government even addressed this? How are they justifying it?

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

We have ‘pods’ of 150 odd too. Mostly area specific but then they are travelling for options and science. It’s gas considering the 50 limit at gatherings.

I multiplied out there and even with a cap of 24 I will be seeing 250 students a week. Likely closer to 300 since I have substitution to do too. All of those are close contacts. As in I will have spent 40 minutes minimum in their company

Is that not similar to someone working in a restaurant/coffee shop?

We can only have 200 people in Croke Park at the moment but schools can open with full numbers ????? There is currently no logic to what is being planned

rainbowtrout wrote: »

They're not. They don't care. The fact that they released this plan originally and said people staff/students don't have to wear masks in school said it all. Masks mandatory in any other business establishment and fines/possible jail term for non-compliance.

Schools are the exception to all of this. Open the schools to open the economy. The rules don't apply to us. If the pubs were reopened in the morning you would have more chance of being socially distanced having your pint than you will in a school in two weeks time.

But, I mean, is there any way of getting the question asked of them somehow? Is there any way of getting someone up there to come up with an explanation to the public, even if it is a bull one? I don't think they should be given the opportunity to later feign ignorance on an issue like this. They know exactly what they are at

Bananaleaf wrote: »

But, I mean, is there any way of getting the question asked of them somehow? Is there any way of getting someone up there to come up with an explanation to the public, even if it is a bull one? I don't think they should be given the opportunity to later feign ignorance on an issue like this. They know exactly what they are at

Like any politicians they will just dodge the question. The general public have been questioning the insanity of the guidelines in the last couple of weeks. Even the most anti-teacher members of the public can see that all national guidelines have been thrown out the window when it comes to schools.

Unfortunately it will go one of two ways. Cases will continue to rise in the next couple of weeks and NPHET will ask for a delay to reopening and to start with online teaching again, or, we will reopen as planned and by the third week of September there will be schools with clusters and they will be shut on a case by case basis, unless there is an avalanche of cases requiring us to go back to March style school shutdown.

Government know at this stage that the worst is over in terms of the nursing homes, as cold as it may sound, anyone who was fragile, at risk, immuno-compromised and was at risk of dying has already died. They also know from the data that the vast majority of people under 60 who get it will only have mild symptoms and survive.

Effectively they are doing a cost benefit analysis similar to safety recalls in cars. Car manufacturers have done (controversial) cost benefit analysis in the past when a fault has been discovered in their cars. Is it cheaper to recall all the cars and fix them or to say nothing and for the small number of cars that develop that fault, repair as needed and pay out compensation on claims for repairs, accidents, injuries and death.

This isn't much different. Opening schools gets more than 1 million children back into the education system and gets parents back to work. The vast, vast majority of those that develop covid in that group as a result of increased social contact will not develop serious health problems/die from covid. Hence we move from the South Korean model of tackling covid to the Swedish one.

In the last 16 days (Aug 1 - Aug 16) there have been 11 covid deaths here. In the same period in April (Apr 1 - Apr 16) when cases peaked there were 401. We were also at the height of lockdown at that stage.....

Presumably the government are taking the calculated risk option.