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Post primary return to schools roadmap

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https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/7acad-reopening-our-post-primary-schools/#additional-guidelines-and-procedures

A thread to discuss issues.

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Rosita

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

she hasn't taken a public command of her brief

I do agree with this. although I absolutely believe too that this is much more significant in terms of how she herself is judged politically rather than actually mattering to decisions around schools. No doubt all of that is collective and will be largely driven by NPHET. But yeah, her predecessor was much more visible, though it's only fair to say that that visibility wasn't always a roaring success either.

But yeah you see it even in schools. It'll be the people who are standing nearest to the Principal at various functions will make the promotional breakthroughs so visibility matters. But I think it matters more to her career and reputation than it does to the nitty-gritty of opening schools.

Rosita

Bobtheman wrote: »

What about the rest of EU? They are going ahead with school openings?

Presumably they are, and politically that might be a significant question. Didn't Varadker comment recently that we didn't want to be the only country not to seen to not reopen schools? No mention of the infections rate or where we were are likely to be in terms of that. Just an eye on what other countries were at. So chances are they'll want to plough ahead and maybe shrug their shoulders in a month's time if they have to close them again.

However, regarding other countries, the famous Denmark is currently in a worse state than us in terms of infections' growth figure. And there was some delusional commentary about schools' reopening a few months back about some countries which ignored that the schools appeared to have had plenty of space, and held outdoor classes in good weather - options not available to us.

Also bigger countries have the option of regional lockdowns and can cover vast areas in doing so. Notwithstanding the Laois-Offaly-Kildare thing recently it is something we have not tried yet. It might not be as palatable in Ireland as the place of far most significant population density is the capital. Not all countries are as lop-sided population-wise and economically as we have become. That might be an option with schools but Dr Glynn did comment on the number of counties which have recorded infections very recently - every county I think.

Other countries are also a bit more advanced in their counter-Covid strategies (which might in itself have contributed to resurges in fairness) - as in, for example, Italy, has taken the option of closing night-clubs. We haven't even gotten around to opening ordinary pubs never mind night-clubs. So they have low-hanging fruit which might make a difference especially politically before turning to schools' closure.

The one thing that might prompt the government to not reopen schools just yet might be if they feel closure in a month's time is inevitable. Because if closure in a month's time is inevitable then it means that the trajectory of the virus is not controllable in the short-term and the amount of people on the move in schools' reopening would considerably worsen the situation.

Politically it'd probably be easier too to stand in front of a mic with an earnest "we're all in this together" face on you and say that we have to defer opening, rather than standing in front of a mic next month looking like a plank when it was obvious you disregarded what by that stage might appear to have been clear and inevitable to those commentators whose specialist subject is hindsight.

wirelessdude01

Bobtheman wrote: »

I think it's way too soon to write Norma Foley off.
The decision to open schools won't be up to her. It's a collective decision.
She is inheriting a department that is has shown itself terrible at planning. But I have heard from Kerry that she is pro teacher.
I would never vote FF but I'm open to giving her time. I'm sure she is standing by for my views !?
We need a minister who is in office longer than the normal 2 years. By the time they figure out how the place works they have moved on. It's a forlorn hope .

She might have been a 'pro teacher' but she hasn't taken a public command of her brief, that is all we will judge her on. She has shown zero leadership in her role at a time when it is very much needed.
Personally think her interview in the Indo has led to her being removed from any situation where her old fashioned ways cannot be twisted. The minister for education should be very much front and centre at this time

Rosita

maynooth_rules wrote: »

For all of Varadkars faults, at least he will come out and state his feelings on a matter. Martin and in particular Norma Foley have simply disappeared and are not discussing school returns at all. Giving Education (which Id argue was the 2nd most important portfolio after Health for this new government) to a completely inexperienced minister could be the biggest mistake FF do.

To be honest I think most politics that is useful is done away from the megaphone. Varadker said publicly the LC would go ahead "by hook or by crook" and just because those were his feelings on the matter it didn't advance us much. I also doubt that the Minister in any Department is taking decisions in isolation. There has been a permanent civil service in the Dept of Ed since long before Foley was heard tell of and I'm fairly sure they are following the same policy trajectory irrespective of who the Minister is. Though it is true to say that she doesn't have the cuteness of an experienced politician like Varadker who can give the illusion of activity with a few judicious comments.

Bobtheman

I think it's way too soon to write Norma Foley off.
The decision to open schools won't be up to her. It's a collective decision.
She is inheriting a department that is has shown itself terrible at planning. But I have heard from Kerry that she is pro teacher.
I would never vote FF but I'm open to giving her time. I'm sure she is standing by for my views !?
We need a minister who is in office longer than the normal 2 years. By the time they figure out how the place works they have moved on. It's a forlorn hope .

km79

maynooth_rules wrote: »

For all of Varadkars faults, at least he will come out and state his feelings on a matter. Martin and in particular Norma Foley have simply disappeared and are not discussing school returns at all. Giving Education (which Id argue was the 2nd most important portfolio after Health for this new government) to a completely inexperienced minister could be the biggest mistake FF do.

This was exactly what I said when she was appointed
It also shows where education lies in their list of priorities

rainbowtrout

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

. It is a disgrace.

But unfortunately completely unsurprising. It’s all about kicking the cam down the road.

maynooth_rules

Rosita wrote: »

I saw that interview. Reading between the lines in that interview I think it's a very distinct possibility schools won't reopen physically anyway. He very clearly swerved the direct question on whether it was possible they would remain shut. And also pointedly referred to the fact that "it's now less than two weeks away" which was not a comment without significance I think.

If figures maintain the same momentum this week (from Tuesday on) with the widespread nature of it across so many counties, and the amount which is unidentified in source, I'd say they couldn't stand over giving the go-ahead for the mobilisation of the numbers of people reopening schools will mean. Varadker must be champing at the bit to do his "straight-talking-Leo-please-vote-for-me" persona and announce it ahead of any actual decision.

For all of Varadkars faults, at least he will come out and state his feelings on a matter. Martin and in particular Norma Foley have simply disappeared and are not discussing school returns at all. Giving Education (which Id argue was the 2nd most important portfolio after Health for this new government) to a completely inexperienced minister could be the biggest mistake FF do.

mirrorwall14

km79 wrote: »

I have to believe that the Dept have a comprehensive document on remote teaching /blended learning ready to go as plan B.
I absolutely do not believe they do however .
Anyone seen or heard from Norma lately ?
Oh she is on holidays you say ........

We have the benefit in this country at senior cycle in particular that there is one syllabus for each subject one. They have had months. The PDST and NCCA and DES should have seccunded/hired as necessary and have an online portal well on the way for all Senior cycle subjects that teaches the entire syllabus beginning to end. It’s absolutely insane that we are facing closures again and there is NOTHING centralised There is absolutely no excuse for this in my opinion. It is a disgrace.

mirrorwall14

Rosita wrote: »

I would have assumed this is a widespread problem. We normally have 12 Junior classes - four groups in each of the three years with 30 in each class. If the idea of the "satellite room" as it was called in the documentation, which is supposed to accommodate the overflow 6, is to come to pass it means planning will have to allow for an extra 12 rooms for every class. The rooms simply are not there. And that's before you deal with the absolute fiction the equipment will be in place and working constantly to beam live action from the classroom to them and 12 extra teachers will materialise to supervise them. And "the hall" has very limited utility in solving this either. Yes, you'd get 72 kids into the hall but not in a way they could view 12 classes simultaneously.

And bear in mind that TYs will probably be around most of time they'd have been gone in previous times so even that bit of wriggle-room is not going to be available.

I'd imagine that in many schools these extra 6 will be amalgamated into other groups of 24 in another room and just supervised for the class, or in a large group in the hall. The resources, technical, physical nor personnel will not be there to do otherwise. Presumably whoever came up with the idea of a "satellite room" in that plan is well aware of this but obviously has to be seen to be ensuring that they are being properly "educated" at all times.

We are a big school ~800. But the junior school is the one far more affected by overflow as the year groups are bigger. We’ve gotten two classes into the PE hall and reclaimed two other areas In the building and I think that’s where the overflow spaces are coming from as that allows for 16 groups of 6 overflow (when there may not be a full 6 every time). TY classes are 24 already asfaik. I don’t think they addressed where the seniors are being split to but it was a looooong meeting. They did contemplate needing space offsite but it wouldn’t work logistically apparently

km79

Bobtheman wrote: »

What about the rest of EU? They are going ahead with school openings?

Only one country can claim the title of having the most overcrowded classrooms in Europe though !

Bobtheman

What about the rest of EU? They are going ahead with school openings?

Bananaleaf

km79 wrote: »

I have to believe that the Dept have a comprehensive document on remote teaching /blended learning ready to go as plan B.
I absolutely do not believe they do however .
Anyone seen or heard from Norma lately ?
Oh she is on holidays you say ........

She's not gone to Italy though, so her job is safe :rolleyes:

km79

Rosita wrote: »

I saw that interview. Reading between the lines in that interview I think it's a very distinct possibility schools won't reopen physically anyway. He very clearly swerved the direct question on whether it was possible they would remain shut. And also pointedly referred to the fact that "it's now less than two weeks away" which was not a comment without significance I think.

If figures maintain the same momentum this week (from Tuesday on) with the widespread nature of it across so many counties, and the amount which is unidentified in source, I'd say they couldn't stand over giving the go-ahead for the mobilisation of the numbers of people reopening schools will mean. Varadker must be champing at the bit to do his "straight-talking-Leo-please-vote-for-me" persona and announce it ahead of any actual decision.

I have to believe that the Dept have a comprehensive document on remote teaching /blended learning ready to go as plan B.
I absolutely do not believe they do however .
Anyone seen or heard from Norma lately ?
Oh she is on holidays you say ........

combat14

Rosita wrote: »

I saw that interview. Reading between the lines in that interview I think it's a very distinct possibility schools won't reopen physically anyway. He very clearly swerved the direct question on whether it was possible they would remain shut. And also pointedly referred to the fact that "it's now less than two weeks away" which was not a comment without significance I think.

If figures maintain the same momentum this week (from Tuesday on) with the widespread nature of it across so many counties, and the amount which is unidentified in source, I'd say they couldn't stand over giving the go-ahead for the mobilisation of the numbers of people reopening schools will mean. Varadker must be champing at the bit to do his "straight-talking-Leo-please-vote-for-me" persona and announce it ahead of any actual decision.

yeah there have been a 1000 confirmed cases in the last 2 weeks (not counting unconfirmed cases) .. next few days will be critical when making decision to open schools

Rosita

km79 wrote: »

“Asked when interviewed on the 6pm RTÉ TV news if schools might not re-open as scheduled, he said that clearly that topic would be part of Nphet’s considerations on Monday.”

Dr Glynn quoted in the Irish times

I saw that interview. Reading between the lines in that interview I think it's a very distinct possibility schools won't reopen physically anyway. He very clearly swerved the direct question on whether it was possible they would remain shut. And also pointedly referred to the fact that "it's now less than two weeks away" which was not a comment without significance I think.

If figures maintain the same momentum this week (from Tuesday on) with the widespread nature of it across so many counties, and the amount which is unidentified in source, I'd say they couldn't stand over giving the go-ahead for the mobilisation of the numbers of people reopening schools will mean. Varadker must be champing at the bit to do his "straight-talking-Leo-please-vote-for-me" persona and announce it ahead of any actual decision.

Bananaleaf

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

On the timeline for a Halloween drop.

Trick or treat??? :pac:

Alex86Eire

RealJohn wrote: »

On this, does anyone know if the rumour (which I’ve always propagated, without any actual confirmation of its accuracy) that only science teachers are allowed/insured to take classes in science labs (and presumably the same applies or doesn’t in other practical subjects) is true?
Are non-science teachers allowed to take classes in science labs?
If not, where does it say that?

No idea. Its the first I've heard of it!

Alex86Eire

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Should never be 30 in a science class ffs

I agree wholeheartedly.

wirelessdude01

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Has anyone seen the subject-specific plans the dept promised us yet?

On the timeline for a Halloween drop.

Bananaleaf

Has anyone seen the subject-specific plans the dept promised us yet?

Rosita

Alex86Eire wrote: »

We don't have spare classrooms to fit overflow kids into.

I would have assumed this is a widespread problem. We normally have 12 Junior classes - four groups in each of the three years with 30 in each class. If the idea of the "satellite room" as it was called in the documentation, which is supposed to accommodate the overflow 6, is to come to pass it means planning will have to allow for an extra 12 rooms for every class. The rooms simply are not there. And that's before you deal with the absolute fiction the equipment will be in place and working constantly to beam live action from the classroom to them and 12 extra teachers will materialise to supervise them. And "the hall" has very limited utility in solving this either. Yes, you'd get 72 kids into the hall but not in a way they could view 12 classes simultaneously.

And bear in mind that TYs will probably be around most of time they'd have been gone in previous times so even that bit of wriggle-room is not going to be available.

I'd imagine that in many schools these extra 6 will be amalgamated into other groups of 24 in another room and just supervised for the class, or in a large group in the hall. The resources, technical, physical nor personnel will not be there to do otherwise. Presumably whoever came up with the idea of a "satellite room" in that plan is well aware of this but obviously has to be seen to be ensuring that they are being properly "educated" at all times.

SligoBrewer

Alex86Eire wrote: »

We're the same. They haven't tried to fit 30 in the labs yet which will be interesting!We don't have spare classrooms to fit overflow kids into.

Should never be 30 in a science class ffs

km79

“Asked when interviewed on the 6pm RTÉ TV news if schools might not re-open as scheduled, he said that clearly that topic would be part of Nphet’s considerations on Monday.”

Dr Glynn quoted in the Irish times

RealJohn

Alex86Eire wrote: »

We're the same. They haven't tried to fit 30 in the labs yet which will be interesting!We don't have spare classrooms to fit overflow kids into.

On this, does anyone know if the rumour (which I’ve always propagated, without any actual confirmation of its accuracy) that only science teachers are allowed/insured to take classes in science labs (and presumably the same applies or doesn’t in other practical subjects) is true?
Are non-science teachers allowed to take classes in science labs?
If not, where does it say that?

Moody_mona

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

We have max of 24 but 6 out in another room rotating daily that we are also responsible for in terms of teaching and learning. However our WiFi won’t has only gone out to tender and won’t be fixed in time for opening.... how it will work in maths is anyone guess. It’s going to be a nightmare imo

We will have surplus in an overflow room also, no idea how that is going to work in reality!

Alex86Eire

alroley wrote: »

What are other schools doing to facilitate the 1m social distancing? We were told we'd have our regular classes as no room to take students out of class. They're hoping we won't measure the space between desks because they're claiming that 30 can fit in 1m apart from each other. No chance.

We're the same. They haven't tried to fit 30 in the labs yet which will be interesting!We don't have spare classrooms to fit overflow kids into.

mirrorwall14

alroley wrote: »

What are other schools doing to facilitate the 1m social distancing? We were told we'd have our regular classes as no room to take students out of class. They're hoping we won't measure the space between desks because they're claiming that 30 can fit in 1m apart from each other. No chance.

We have max of 24 but 6 out in another room rotating daily that we are also responsible for in terms of teaching and learning. However our WiFi won’t has only gone out to tender and won’t be fixed in time for opening.... how it will work in maths is anyone guess. It’s going to be a nightmare imo

jimmytwotimes 2013

alroley wrote: »

What are other schools doing to facilitate the 1m social distancing? We were told we'd have our regular classes as no room to take students out of class. They're hoping we won't measure the space between desks because they're claiming that 30 can fit in 1m apart from each other. No chance.

We are pretty much business as usual but with masks as nothing else is feasible with a full return

alroley

What are other schools doing to facilitate the 1m social distancing? We were told we'd have our regular classes as no room to take students out of class. They're hoping we won't measure the space between desks because they're claiming that 30 can fit in 1m apart from each other. No chance.