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Saoradh dissident republican march in Dublin

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    #392
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,063 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    seamus wrote: »
    Maybe you didn't explicitly justify it, but your intention is to try and claim that "justified" is a matter of opinion, and these guys have their reasons.

    I'm simply pointing out that having their reasons, is irrelevant. Everyone does everything for a reason.

    Claiming that there's some deeper cultural memory here is jumping the gun, especially considering what has transpired in the last 20 years.

    It's far more likely that this is a group of misguided scum, many of whom we'll be surprised to hear have "Irish heritage" rather than an Irish passport, who think that they're answering an ancient call to arms over a border issue that has been largely resolved.

    There's no way to "listen" to them and peacefully satisfy their ideals without denying the people of Ireland the right to self-determination.

    If they had any testicles and convictions, they would try to fight their corner inside the political system. Instead they have found an entire island who doesn't share their blunt interpretation of the border issue, so they've decided to get angry and violent instead of just fvkcing off because they're not wanted.

    Knowing the north and the people there, there is support for these groups.
    Lyra McKee's death would be deeply regretted by a lo of that 'support'.
    Support will dim for a while, but innocent people have died many many times in the north and still the violence goes on.

    In short, the problem is not going to go away.


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    #393
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Maybe the Old IRA will make it known that the New IRA's activities are unhelpful, esp when it comes to provoking a security crackdown and, for example making ATM's harder to rob.


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    #394
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,063 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    markodaly wrote: »
    Christ, even for you Francie this is delightful.

    No, Mandella did not orchestrate a 30 years long war, which included the bombing and maiming of innocent woman and children. They were not exactly the same thing.

    The organisation Mandela founded was involved in violent acts from 61 up until the 90's.
    he couldn't take part because he was in jail after a previous 20 years of 'seditious activities'.

    Stop inventing him as a saint, as the British (Thatcher etc) had to do. He was no different to those in the IRA or some in SF and they both traveled a similar path. That was why he had an affinity with them.


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    #395
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,063 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »

    Are you trying to understand him as well, or trying to look a bit deeper to understand why he did what he did?

    Absolutely, that would be my way of acting as a responsible citizen. Because if you understand why it happens you can take action, instead of ignoring it and hoping that trite and ultimately useless condemnation will make it stop.


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    #396
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    markodaly wrote: »
    Christ, even for you Francie this is delightful.

    No, Mandella did not orchestrate a 30 years long war, which included the bombing and maiming of innocent woman and children. They were not exactly the same thing.

    The PIRA did not start the war nor did they kill as many civilians as the British side.


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    #397
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 20,929 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Creggan estate is interesting, apparently it had the lowest crime rate in the North, until the government decided it had to be seen to be doing more to dominate republican areas and built a military installation in the estate and that was the end of peace in creggan.


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    #398
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    Hypocrites don't like been shown up for their hypocrisy. Truth is, if you view the PIRA as terrorists, then for consistency, you should also view Mandela and the old IRA/IRB as terrorists!


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    #399
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    The PIRA did not start the war nor did they kill as many civilians as the British side.

    The Pira killed more Catholics than the British did. The 50s border campaign was started by republicans, long before the troubles.


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    #400
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    The PIRA did not start the war nor did they kill as many civilians as the British side.

    Not true at all.
    Irish Republicans killed more civilians than the British Army and Loyalists combined.


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    #401
    El_Bee
    Registered Users Posts: 933 ✭✭✭El_Bee


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    Maybe the Old IRA will make it known that the New IRA's activities are unhelpful, esp when it comes to provoking a security crackdown and, for example making ATM's harder to rob.


    Or maybe they're all the same thing.


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    #402
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    markodaly wrote: »
    Not true at all.
    Irish Republicans killed more civilians than the British Army and Loyalists combined.

    Utterly clueless.


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    #403
    Farawayhome
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    janfebmar wrote: »
    The Pira killed more Catholics than the British did. The 50s border campaign was started by republicans, long before the troubles.

    The PIRA were not fighting a sectarian war, that was the other side. The IRA were finished until unionist terrorists started a bombing campaign in 1966.


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    #404
    Tomas81
    Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭Tomas81


    janfebmar wrote: »
    The Pira killed more Catholics than the British did. The 50s border campaign was started by republicans, long before the troubles.

    Were the BA army justifiable in their actions?


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    #405
    johnsie
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭johnsie


    It takes a very depraved and warped person to try to justify shooting an illegally held gun into a crowded street and killing an innocent person. Sadly the people who carried out this atrocity have no respect for the lives or well-being of the Irish people. They are gangsters and nothing better.

    Also, with regard to PIRA vs BA, two wrongs don't make a right. Newsflash: There were a bunch of idiots on both sides of the idiot-fence. Mnay horrible things happened on both sides. The important thing is that now the people FROM ALL SIDES who have a brain want to put that kind of bull crap in the past and to have a decent, peaceful future. We can argue about the past all we want. We can have this p*ssing contest about who was the worst, but that wont change anything. What we, as a civilised society can and should do is speak out against warped, violent people and make sure none of that ever happens again, and work towards a prosperous, peaceful and positive future for our children. Don't let a few morons with messed up ideas ruin it for the rest of us.


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    #406
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,972 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    The PIRA were not fighting a sectarian war, that was the other side. The IRA were finished until unionist terrorists started a bombing campaign in 1966.
    ...and here's the hypocrisy coming through: on the one hand you've the IRA who weren't sectarian and on the other hand you've the unionist terrorists. :rolleyes:
    The IRA were always terrorists. No ifs or buts.


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    #407
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    Utterly clueless.

    Ah, I knew you would pop in, so please enlighten us.


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    #408
    Creol1
    Registered Users Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Creol1


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    They didn't successfully fight a 30 year war.

    I think by any yardstick, success in a war would be the surrender or destruction of an enemy and the gain or regain of territory and assets. Even as we speak none of that has changed. The Stormont assembly (when its convened) came out of a background of peace and a political process, but you couldn't even describe it as joint authority.

    If anything, the campaign strengthened "partition"; after all, it ended with the South abandoning the constitutional claim that NI was part of the "national territory" of that State, while reinforcing the principle of consent (or "unionist veto" as PSF would have previously said).


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    #409
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    johnsie wrote: »
    It takes a very depraved and warped person to try to justify shooting an illegally held gun into a crowded street and killing an innocent person.

    Agreed, and an innocent police person has the same right to life as anyone else.


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    #410
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,231 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    The Republic of Ireland should announce that it has no wish to unify with NI.

    This would simultaneously be a reflection of reality and remove any quasi-justification these 'Nationalist' scumbags have for their murderous actions.


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    #411
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    If these lads actually had any interest in the community and making it better they'd do something productive like sorting out the gangs of teenagers running amok in areas.

    But I suppose playing dress up and marching or liberating poor oppressed euro notes from bank atms are what's needed more and where priorities lie. Keep going on about "da brits" while real issues are causing the country problems......


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    #412
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,972 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    The Republic of Ireland should announce that it has no wish to unify with NI.

    This would simultaneously be a reflection of reality and remove any quasi-justification these 'Nationalist' scumbags have for their murderous actions.
    These thugs don't seem to acknowledge the one and only legitimate government of the Republic. If that government made a decision as you propose, they would simply just ignore it.
    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    If these lads actually had any interest in the community and making it better they'd do something productive like sorting out the gangs of teenagers running amok in areas.
    As I understand it, it was a teenage thug who shot Lyra. This teenager was armed by the pretend soldiers of the New IRA/Saoradh.
    These groups are just mindless thugs and don't consider others in their actions.


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    #413
    Tomas81
    Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭Tomas81


    janfebmar wrote: »
    Agreed, and an innocent police person has the same right to life as anyone else.

    Not true. The person yes, the uniform no.


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    #414
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,248 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Knowing the north and the people there, there is support for these groups.
    Lyra McKee's death would be deeply regretted by a lo of that 'support'.
    Support will dim for a while, but innocent people have died many many times in the north and still the violence goes on.

    In short, the problem is not going to go away.


    Equally there is support for the KKK and other white supremacist groups in America.

    Should we accept that white supremacist violence is not going to go away until something is done about the black and hispanic people they hate?

    The problem goes away when people see sense and stop killing others and committing violence on behalf of a non-existent and unjustifiable cause.

    In the North, the GFA has been put in place to bring peace. The problem, in effect, went away with the GFA. There is no reason, no excuse, no explanation, no justification for any return to violence. Partition is the democratically accepted status quo, and any violence to change that is repugnant.


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    #415
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,248 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Tomas81 wrote: »
    Not true. The person yes, the uniform no.

    When did uniforms lose the right to life?

    What a silly answer.


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    #416
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,972 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Tomas81 wrote: »
    Not true. The person yes, the uniform no.
    Are you seriously justifying murder and saying that some people don't have a full right to life?


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    #417
    Tomas81
    Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭Tomas81


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    Are you seriously justifying murder and saying that some people don't have a full right to life?

    If you take on a uniform of police force or armed forces in a partitioned country you need to be aware you will be attacked. It is inevitable.


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    #418
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,248 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Tomas81 wrote: »
    If you take on a uniform of police force or armed forces in a partitioned country you need to be aware you will be attacked. It is inevitable.



    It is only inevitable if there are a sufficient number of mindless criminal thugs indoctrinated by a hateful sectarian ideology repugnant to 99% of the people on this island. Don't you agree?


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    #419
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    Why was this march allowed to go ahead. I was under the impression that it was illegal to walk down the street dressed in that manner and also illegal to be associated with a terrorist organisation? Also, do you not need to get permission for the Gardai to march on a street like that?
    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    ...and here's the hypocrisy coming through: on the one hand you've the IRA who weren't sectarian and on the other hand you've the unionist terrorists. :rolleyes: The IRA were always terrorists. No ifs or buts.

    You have to laugh at the suggestion that Kingsmill wasn't sectarian. RC's were told to jog on, Protestants shot in the head. It wasn't sectarian though. Some logic that.
    facehugger99 wrote: »
    The Republic of Ireland should announce that it has no wish to unify with NI.

    Did that as part of the GFA essentially. A border poll is never going to happen in reality. The consequences of the inevitable defeat would be dire.
    facehugger99 wrote: »
    This would simultaneously be a reflection of reality and remove any quasi-justification these 'Nationalist' scumbags have for their murderous actions.

    I doubt that these people are that interested in what the authorities have to say.
    Tomas81 wrote: »
    If you take on a uniform of police force or armed forces in a partitioned country you need to be aware you will be attacked. It is inevitable.

    The RoI isn't partitioned.


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    #420
    Tomas81
    Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭Tomas81


    blanch152 wrote: »
    It is only inevitable if there are a sufficient number of mindless criminal thugs indoctrinated by a hateful sectarian ideology repugnant to 99% of the people on this island. Don't you agree?

    If it was secterianism when was the last secterian murder by the IRA?


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    #421
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,248 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Tomas81 wrote: »
    If it was secterianism when was the last secterian murder by the IRA?


    If what was sectarianism?


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