Saoradh dissident republican march in Dublin

Seth Brundle

Tomas81 wrote: »

Well no in English it means Irish Volunteers, but I get what you mean. The only Oglaigh na hEireann I'd recognise is one that decommissioned it's arms in July 2005.

Those scum were never Oglaigh na hEireann and as an Irish citizen I find your claim insulting to the people of Ireland.

Ash.J.Williams

janfebmar wrote: »

A few decades ago (when we were talking about) there was a ballot box. There also was a ballot box available to everyone in the border poll in 1973, one vote per adult. Did not matter in that vote if you were rich or poor, Catholic or protestant.

It wasn't that simple unfortunately

markodaly

seamus wrote: »

Violence is never an answer, but it was understandable, at the very least.

It's one thing to talk about the ballot box, but when the state refuses to allow you to cast a vote, when peaceful protests are met with state-authorised violence and murder, when you are denied the right to work & the right to live peacefully because of your heritage, when your women are raped, your children are beaten, and your friends are murdered, just because they belong to a certain ethnicity...then it's incredibly difficult for the average human being to contain their rage.

There's a reason Mahatma Ghandi is so revered. Because his style of peaceful non-compliance is most definitely the exception, and not the rule. An example of the head conquering the heart and achieving a better outcome.

For most of the rest of humanity, the heart conquers the head when they're being oppressed and brutalised, and we lash out with violence and anger.

Violence and anger are never justifiable. But they are understandable.

Mandella would be another. He flirted with it in his youth but came to realise that the damage done to the society would be worse in the long run, never mind the moral issues, thus choose the peaceful democratic means, even when he was locked up.

MLK would be another example.

People seem to dance around the topic of Provo violence as if the conditions of the North justified it. I can go along with that argument if the Provos were merely just defending their community as what happened in the Battle of St Matthews.

However, the Provo leadership had a much larger plan. They wanted to fight the British Army on the streets and use any means possible, including planting bombs in civilian areas and to hell with the consequences. They, of course, had no popular mandate for that but who cares. They were the stars in their own movie.

The PIRA campaign morphed into a disastrous war that ended up killing more Catholics than the BA or Loyalist Paras.

Seth Brundle

timthumbni wrote: »

Not sure. I can confirm for you that it was Irish republicans that murdered that young lady journalist though. But hey in your own words a few posts ago these bold republican actions will “soften somebody or others cough”

It wasn't "Irish Republicans".
These people were just common scumbag thugs. Nothing Irish or political about it!

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Giving a 'reason' is neither an excuse or condoning.

There is a reason why a British paratrooper opens fire on civilians and stating it would not be condoning it or excusing or talking out of the side of my mouth, would it?

So less of the indignant ranting please.

Giving a reason that is wholly unjustified is excusing and condoning.

If you had said that the young man killed the journalist because he had been indoctrinated by evil misguided republicans, and was consequently lacking in normal human judgement, then you would be giving a reason that isn't excusing and condoning.

blanch152

Seth Brundle wrote: »

It wasn't "Irish Republicans".
These people were just common scumbag thugs. Nothing Irish or political about it!

Unfortunately, they claim to be acting on our behalf, for our freedom, for our benefit. That is why the actions of "Irish republicans" disgust me so much, because they try to associate me with their unacceptable behaviour. They make me ashamed to be Irish.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Mandella would be another. He flirted with it in his youth but came to realise that the damage done to the society would be worse in the long run, never mind the moral issues, thus choose the peaceful democratic means, even when he was locked up.

MLK would be another example.

People seem to dance around the topic of Provo violence as if the conditions of the North justified it. I can go along with that argument if the Provos were merely just defending their community as what happened in the Battle of St Matthews.

However, the Provo leadership had a much larger plan. They wanted to fight the British Army on the streets and use any means possible, including planting bombs in civilian areas and to hell with the consequences. They, of course, had no popular mandate for that but who cares. They were the stars in their own movie.

The PIRA campaign morphed into a disastrous war that ended up killing more Catholics than the BA or Loyalist Paras.

PIRA did exactly the same thing as Mandela. Once they achieved some of their aims they ceased to exist and left the stage to democratic politics (wholly new in northern Irish society after the GFA was signed but as yet not fully achieved).

The Thatcherite style of comment on people like Mandela you read on these forums is utterly hypocritical.
The good 'terrorist' and the bad 'terrorist' school of thought.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Giving a reason that is wholly unjustified is excusing and condoning.

If you had said that the young man killed the journalist because he had been indoctrinated by evil misguided republicans, and was consequently lacking in normal human judgement, then you would be giving a reason that isn't excusing and condoning.

Of course you are going to see it as unjustified as you are at centre in favour of the prolonging of partition.

There are those on this island who disagree with you.
This group continue to use violence to achieve their aims. The 'reason' for that doesn't change whether you agree or disagree.

I disagree with them but that doesn't alter the 'reason' they are doing it.

Seth Brundle

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Of course you are going to see it as unjustified as you are at centre in favour of the prolonging of partition.

There are those on this island who disagree with you.
This group continue to use violence to achieve their aims. The 'reason' for that doesn't change whether you agree or disagree.

I disagree with them but that doesn't alter the 'reason' they are doing it.

Aware that you're not a mouthpiece for this new bunch of nutjobs, they are following a process that has been shown in the past to have failed i.e. violence.
Furthermore, the argument of "prolonging of partition" doesn't hold water given that currently we are closer than ever at having a border poll so their insistence on removing the "enemy" through violent means just shows how stupidly deluded they are.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Of course you are going to see it as unjustified as you are at centre in favour of the prolonging of partition.

There are those on this island who disagree with you.
This group continue to use violence to achieve their aims. The 'reason' for that doesn't change whether you agree or disagree.

I disagree with them but that doesn't alter the 'reason' they are doing it.

The reason they are doing it is because they are mentally unstable people with a predisposition to violence. If you disagree with that, you are either facilitating, excusing or condoning what they did.

seamus

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I disagree with them but that doesn't alter the 'reason' they are doing it.

Having a reason, doesn't mean its justified.

Anti-vaxxers have their reasons.

ISIS have their reasons.

Hitler had his reasons.

Reasons alone do not justify actions.

Farawayhome

Tomas81 wrote: »

They have been since 2017. The forensic and Bomb disposal are B.A, they have been on the ground since August 2017

That's not good is it? Especially at a time where the atrocities they committed haven't been fully investigated.

Farawayhome

Aegir wrote: »

does it matter?

Of course. Having an army that has murdered many civilians raiding homes in a city like Derry is not going to be that popular.

Farawayhome

janfebmar wrote: »

Wrong again, the security services (north and south) only killed 10% of those killed during the troubles. The 90% were killed by the terrorists.

Am no, the British side included the British armed forces, ruc, unionist terrorists etc. They all worked together, fought together, they were the one side. They killed over 1,000 innocent people!

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

The reason they are doing it is because they are mentally unstable people with a predisposition to violence. If you disagree with that, you are either facilitating, excusing or condoning what they did.

No doubt that disaffection and deprivation are feeding into this, it did in 1968/69 as well.
When you have as high a rate of suicide as exists there you understand the society is sick.

Not wanting to do anything about the cause of that is equally facilitating.
It really is tragically sad for someone to have to die before those with a long history of ignoring what is going on,( for instance those who will type that the north was peaceful and prosperous through the 50's and 60's) to sit up and take notice.

Seth Brundle

Farawayhome wrote: »

Of course. Having an army that has murdered many civilians raiding homes in a city like Derry is not going to be that popular.

Fill me in please as I'm unaware of the details of these:
How many homes have they raided?
On what basis were the residents told that they were being raided?
Were any warrants involved?
Was anyone arrested and, if so, on what grounds?
Has anyone been tried following these raids?

Farawayhome

timthumbni wrote: »

Not sure. I can confirm for you that it was Irish republicans that murdered that young lady journalist though. But hey in your own words a few posts ago these bold republican actions will “soften somebody or others cough”

What happened was a disgrace to the city.

The only people trying to deflect are the branch of republicans r us that murdered the poor girl themselves and the usual suspects on here who might say the murder is wrong,...... but British army, yadda yadda, partition etc etc.

If the BA bomb disposal were there so what... I suggest republicans stop playing with bombs. Because as the whole country knows they have murdered or maimed people in recent times and if you go back to omagh they furthered the cause by blowing up half a town including a few Spanish schoolgirls for good measure.

Maybe they should amend their green book with a few paragraphs about lady journalists and Spanish school girls.....

Hey, everyone knows this murder was disgusting. Violence is not wanted. That's why the presence of the British army is not wanted. They have a dark and bloody history on this island and Derry has especially suffered from their terror.
Pity the British bomb disposal weren't able to stop the Dublin and Monaghan bombs.

FrancieBrady

seamus wrote: »

Having a reason, doesn't mean its justified.

Anti-vaxxers have their reasons.

ISIS have their reasons.

Hitler had his reasons.

Reasons alone do not justify actions.

I didn't justify it.

As usual on here, you get the moralisers trying to hang somebody as a 'supporter, apologist, if you try to look a bit deeper to understand why this happens.

Farawayhome

Seth Brundle wrote: »

1. where is this "free state" that you mention?
2. The Irish Defence Forces may have been underfunded but have shown themselves to be an excellent force at peacekeeping, unlike the pond scum of IRA variants over the last forty or so years.

Why just 40 years? The old IRA disappeared over 100 people, they killed kids, they bombed towns and cities.

Ash.J.Williams

After watching the Miami show band documentary there was no doubt MI6 was a terror organisation along with the others

Farawayhome

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Fill me in please as I'm unaware of the details of these:
How many homes have they raided?
On what basis were the residents told that they were being raided?
Were any warrants involved?
Was anyone arrested and, if so, on what grounds?
Has anyone been tried following these raids?

I've not commented on the justification or otherwise of the raids, just the murderous army conducting them!

Pissartist

janfebmar wrote: »

Several decades ago the ballot box was the answer, not bombing children, shoppers, people in pubs and reztaurants, shooting people in churches. Do not forget the extremist republicans also killed gardai here, killed a politiician here in the Republic, kidnapped etc

I suggest you study the history of Ireland before making a statement like this.

Anteayer

There were serious injustices in Northern Ireland in the past, but we don't live in the past and people need to stop being defined by it.

There's an extremely effective democracy in place in NI. It's guaranteeing full representation of both communities, parity of esteeme, rights to be Irish, British or both simultaneously, comprehensive human rights that's amongst the best in the world and it's a solid social democratic system with good supports and services.

The parties need to engage. This vacuum is dangerous and it's caused by pettiness over the Irish language act and religious inspired homophobia, blocking marriage rights that would be supported by the vast majority of NI residents.

Get that damn assembly working.

I'd rather see a situation where instead of being able to block contentious issues, they were only able to trigger a referendum on them.

There's no excuse for a return to violence. All it would achieve is misery and open up hatred and bunker mentalities.

A united Ireland is a possibility but it'll only ever be achieved by consent.

seamus

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I didn't justify it.

As usual on here, you get the moralisers trying to hang somebody as a 'supporter, apologist, if you try to look a bit deeper to understand why this happens.

Maybe you didn't explicitly justify it, but your intention is to try and claim that "justified" is a matter of opinion, and these guys have their reasons.

I'm simply pointing out that having their reasons, is irrelevant. Everyone does everything for a reason.

Claiming that there's some deeper cultural memory here is jumping the gun, especially considering what has transpired in the last 20 years.

It's far more likely that this is a group of misguided scum, many of whom we'll be surprised to hear have "Irish heritage" rather than an Irish passport, who think that they're answering an ancient call to arms over a border issue that has been largely resolved.

There's no way to "listen" to them and peacefully satisfy their ideals without denying the people of Ireland the right to self-determination.

If they had any testicles and convictions, they would try to fight their corner inside the political system. Instead they have found an entire island who doesn't share their blunt interpretation of the border issue, so they've decided to get angry and violent instead of just fvkcing off because they're not wanted.

Lone Stone

they should have been arrested

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

PIRA did exactly the same thing as Mandela.

Christ, even for you Francie this is delightful.

No, Mandella did not orchestrate a 30 years long war, which included the bombing and maiming of innocent woman and children. They were not exactly the same thing.

Anteayer

I'd be a little concerned that the same factors that are whipping things up in extreme politics elsewhere in Europe and the states are likely playing a role in NI.

Social media bubbles and online radicalisation can be very dangerous.

You've a rise of all sorts of far right, far left and extreme nationalism of various types. It's unlikely that this island's immune and NI in particular is very likely to be susceptible to that kind of radicalisation.

It was easier to challenge this kind of politics in the 1990s when those bubbles didn't really exist other than physically.

Dyr

markodaly wrote: »

Christ, even for you Francie this is delightful.

No, Mandella did not orchestrate a 30 years long war, which included the bombing and maiming of innocent woman and children. They were not exactly the same thing.

Oh dear, am I going to have to correct you again?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I didn't justify it.

As usual on here, you get the moralisers trying to hang somebody as a 'supporter, apologist, if you try to look a bit deeper to understand why this happens.

They no more had their reasons than the lads in Sri Lanka or New Zealand had their reasons for their versions of similar actions.

Mentally disturbed people have their reasons for despicable actions, but they are not reasons that normal people accept as realistic or justified.

This fellow Anders Breivik had his reasons too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

Are you trying to understand him as well, or trying to look a bit deeper to understand why he did what he did?

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I didn't justify it.

You did.
You blamed partition.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There will be no peace in Ireland until we deal with partition.

These are your words, Francie.

You are in effect in league with the New IRA in trying to justify why they happened to murder a journalist.