Dublin Bus Network Review

Stevek101 · 07-02-2011 6:35pm

Route 2 and 3 will be amalgamated and will operate from UCD Belfield via Sandymount and Ringsend to Mountjoy Square

No mentioned of its northside routing, so the removal of it from the Swords road is already stated..

dowlingm · 07-02-2011 8:20pm

Re: the comment above about DCU students being out of term. Where I live there are regular term-time changes to transit routes according to when students come and go. Is this true of DB or do they operate a year round schedule irrespective?

robbie_998 · 07-02-2011 9:00pm

only a small few left so... me thinks tallaght will have many cuts on there.

i note clondalkin came up twice there. phase one - consultation and so on

phase 2 - clondalkin completed.

it says implementations will begin early 2011 - when is this ?

also will everything happen on the one day or different sections each day for route changes ?

ciaran_h · 07-02-2011 9:13pm

What are the plans for 122 / 123 and services down crumlin road does anyone know?

Stevek101 · 07-02-2011 9:33pm

ciaran_h wrote: »

What are the plans for 122 / 123 and services down crumlin road does anyone know?

123 already received its new Network Direct timetable and upgrade to full double decker service.

122 is detailed in the Cabra part of ND.

# Route 120, 121 and 122 will be amalgamated and operate as route 120 and 122
# Route 120 will continue to operate to Parnell Street with some morning peak trips extended to Ballsbridge
# Route 122 will continue to serve Ashington and the Navan Road

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Network-Direct-Phase-2/Cabra/

LXFlyer · 07-02-2011 10:10pm

Stevek101 wrote: »

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Network-Direct-Phase-2/Merrion-Road/

Merrion Road up now.

Only three area's left; Tallaght/Templeogue, Swords and Glasnevin.

With respect Steve there are not quite just three:

There's South Circular Road/Crumlin/Greenhills and the Rathfarnham/Ballinteer/Ranelagh/Dundrum areas too.

I would rephrase "Swords" to "Swords Road".

The users in those areas have still to be consulted on the changes.

LXFlyer · 07-02-2011 10:19pm

markpb wrote: »

Route 3 will be removed from the Swords road and will terminate at Mountjoy Square. I'm taking bets that DB will
a) Not mention this at the any bus stops on the Swords road or Collins Avenue
b) Not mention it on the website in any way that might let people on the Swords road think to look at it (good start hiding it in the Merrion Road changes page)
c) Not put new timetables up until 2-4 weeks after the change

Anyone want to bet against me?

To be fair Mark DB appeared to have learnt one lesson (from what I could see) with regard to the on-street information with the Lucan Road changes - there was a significant improvement in that I certainly noticed that the most of the stops in the city centre were updated on the morning of the change (I can't comment beyond Heuston Station as that's as far as I went), something that clearly was not done on the Stillorgan or Blanchardstown phases.

As for hiding it, the whole Swords Road corridor will have to have a consultation phase of its own with there being so many proposed changes (3, 11, 13/a, 14/20b, 16/a, 27b that we know about so far) so I think you're being slightly disengenuous.

thomasj · 07-02-2011 10:27pm

lxflyer wrote: »

To be fair Mark DB appeared to have learnt their lesson with regard to the on-street information with the Lucan Road changes - there was a significant improvement in that I certainly noticed that the most of the stops in the city centre were updated on the morning of the change (I can't comment beyond Heuston Station as that's as far as I went), something that clearly was not done on the Stillorgan or Blanchardstown phases.

As for hiding it, the whole Swords Road corridor will have to have a consultation phase of its own with there being so many proposed changes (3, 11, 13/a, 14/20b, 16/a, 27b that we know about so far) so I think you're being slightly disengenuous.

Does the 14/20b and 27b consultation period as part of the malahide road changes not end next Friday and 13/a as per ballymun consultation this Friday.

LXFlyer · 07-02-2011 10:33pm

thomasj wrote: »

Does the 14/20b and 27b consultation period as part of the malahide road changes not end this Friday?

Well presumably as the 14/20b will now serve Shanard Road (replacing the 16) and the 27b will no longer serve Swords Road north of Oscar Traynor Road there'll have to be some consultation for those users - to be fair about this other than the 4 in the first phase all the changes have gone out to consultation. The whole Swords Road QBC has a huge number of changes.

It does appear to me that there has been a change in terms of it looks like all the changes are going to consultation for each area before any more implementation - a common sense move, whether or not one agrees with the proposals.

xper · 08-02-2011 2:13am

Stevek101 wrote: »

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Network-Direct-Phase-2/Merrion-Road/

Merrion Road up now.

From the above page:

Route 111 will operate from Dun Laoghaire to Cherrywood Business Park providing increased connections for customers to high frequency route 145 on the N11 and Luas

The team seem to be running out of steam. Little imagination shown here in redesigning routes, its just bare faced cost cutting at this stage. I mean, the 111 and 145 interchange is presented as a highlight of this phase. Really? That's all you've got? Are 111 passengers expeceted to jump off the flyover onto the roof of a 145 passing below? Mind you, if stopping 400m short of the Luas stop is an interchange, I suppose asking passengers to negotiate a semi-free-flow grade seperated dual carriageway junction to change buses with similar distance between stops is considered integrated transport too. Of course, with the 111 and 84 routes that actually provide these interchange opportunities running on hourly schedules anyway, nobody will bother availing of the service, so it all sorts itself out. Job done.

markpb · 08-02-2011 6:57am

lxflyer wrote: »

as for hiding it, the whole Swords Road corridor will have to have a consultation phase of its own

I was referring specifically to route 3. Noone living on the north-side of that route will think to look at changes billed as affecting Merrion road because they won't think it will affect them.

And forgive me for being cynical if a bus company had to learn from its mistakes before knowing timetables need to be printed before a change instead of a month later.

LXFlyer · 08-02-2011 8:01am

markpb wrote: »

I was referring specifically to route 3. Noone living on the north-side of that route will think to look at changes billed as affecting Merrion road because they won't think it will affect them.

And forgive me for being cynical if a bus company had to learn from its mistakes before knowing timetables need to be printed before a change instead of a month later.

I think you're missing my point - that the removal of the northern element of route 3 will presumably form part of the Swords Road consultations also.

As I said above it does seem as all the consultations are now being carried out before the next round of implementations. Hence my comment.

markpb · 08-02-2011 9:27am

lxflyer wrote: »

I think you're missing my point - that the removal of the northern element of route 3 will presumably form part of the Swords Road consultations also.

As I said above it does seem as all the consultations are now being carried out before the next round of implementations. Hence my comment.

If that happens (and I hope it does), I'll be delighted but based on their work to date, I wouldn't count on it. The 4 was decimated without any mention of a change (it was briefly touched on in the Stillorgan changes page).

AlekSmart · 08-02-2011 12:27pm

xper wrote: »

From the above page:

[/COLOR]The team seem to be running out of steam. Little imagination shown here in redesigning routes, its just bare faced cost cutting at this stage. I mean, the 111 and 145 interchange is presented as a highlight of this phase. Really? That's all you've got? Are 111 passengers expeceted to jump off the flyover onto the roof of a 145 passing below? Mind you, if stopping 400m short of the Luas stop is an interchange, I suppose asking passengers to negotiate a semi-free-flow grade seperated dual carriageway junction to change buses with similar distance between stops is considered integrated transport too. Of course, with the 111 and 84 routes that actually provide these interchange opportunities running on hourly schedules anyway, nobody will bother availing of the service, so it all sorts itself out. Job done.

Indeed xper,but please do remember the entire Network Direct programme to date has been heavily influenced by Statistics,and lots of them,which the select members of the ND team have thrown on the table as the main reasons for the changes.

It`s fair to say that in the Individual Depot`s the changes as revealed have recieved a less than fullsome accolade,with even some Local Management figures seen to roll their eyes heavenward.

Where staff representations have been taken on board there has been some improvement,as in the 46A which is belatedly settling down to a functional level of operation.

Why it needed some 4 months of turmoil before these representations were taken on board is the real question.

The 111 routing is an interesting one as it appears,yet again to follow the principle of ignoring some juicy potential.

There has and remains a suggested routing for the 111 which was advanced by local supervisory staff.

Operate the 111 along it`s current route to Wyattville Road,then along the N11 to Loughlinstown Hospital (incredibly enough,NO existing direct Public Transport link from DunLaoire/Sallynoggin) then via Luas Cherrywood-Cabinteely-Cornelscourt-Carrickmines Cross to terminate at Carrickmines Retail Park.

New alignment,new points of linkage and an opportunity to develop a functional route.

However the suggestion,although first floated some 2 years ago,appears to have been scrunched up in a ball and flung in the bin.

I was referring specifically to route 3. Noone living on the north-side of that route will think to look at changes billed as affecting Merrion road because they won't think it will affect them.

Markpb`s concerns re the route 3 are equally valid as they appear to consign the route to a limbo of sorts.

Why not return to having a long-hard-look at Drumcondra Train Station as a potential Terminus for Routes such as the 3 and 7 .

It would of course require a degree of co-operation between agencies (:eek:) as currently the area at the side of the Station Embankment,St Anns Road is given over to Pay and Display Car Parking.

Far too often we are seeing major elements of infrastructure,such as Loughlinstown Hospital,Cherrywood Luas or Drumcondra Station simply ignored because nobody wants to offend the Car driver or the "Business" fraterinity.

The largest failing of Network Direct as a project is the failure to involve all of the Capitals statutory agencies...leaving it all to Dublin Bus just will not work.

Cookie_Monster · 08-02-2011 2:11pm

Route 111 will connect Dun Laoghaire and Sallynoggin with Cherrywood Business Park & Luas

it only runs 4 or 5 times a day in each direction currently, the timing now suggests once a hour in future, basically replacing the 7 to Cherrywood and little other change. so infrequent its pretty much pointless.

Route 7/a will be amalgamated and called route 7 and will be extended to Mountjoy Square

So all of the area from the Rochestown Lodge to Macintosh loses it's only connection to town? Or the odd 7 will go that way adding confusion?

Route 7b will take advantage of the bus priority on the Monkstown Llink Road with a peak time service to and from the City

So taking it off the N11 corridor for quite a distance and dumping it right into very heavy traffic at the end of the ring road in Deansgrance? Or will it continue up to the TK roundabout and up to Bakers?

Route 7 will operate from Loughlinstown Park and all trips will operate to Mountjoy Square. This will provide improved cross city connections. Journey times will continue to benefit from the priority on the Merrion Road QBC and with Bus Gate in the City Centre

Slightly increased frequency, which is good but its a pity they've all been pulled out of Cherrywood. The link from Cherrywood, the Bus park and the Luas have now been further restricted.

The Cherrywood thing amazes me, earlier ND proclaimed it as a new "hub" The 7, 84 and 111 could and should all be terminating within the estate right up at the station. There is the road space to put a proper bus terminus in there and actually LINK services rather than leaving large gaps than customers have to walk, wasting their time.

AlekSmart · 08-02-2011 2:29pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

it only runs 4 or 5 times a day in each direction currently, the timing now suggests once a hour in future, basically replacing the 7 to Cherrywood and little other change. so infrequent its pretty much pointless.

Slightly increased frequency, which is good but its a pity they've all been pulled out of Cherrywood. The link from Cherrywood, the Bus park and the Luas have now been further restricted.

The Cherrywood thing amazes me, earlier ND proclaimed it as a new "hub" The 7, 84 and 111 could and should all be terminating within the estate right up at the station. There is the road space to put a proper bus terminus in there and actually LINK services rather than leaving large gaps than customers have to walk, wasting their time.

Very good example of what appears to be highly disjointed thinking indeed.

I can see why the Network Direct "team" are thinking in this manner though,largely because they are a single focused team with absolutely no points-of-reference other than Dublin Bus`s need to square a 200 vehicle fleet reduction with no negative impact on it`s existing customers.

I would term that an impossibility,but perhaps thats me simply being negative ?

Cherrywood Luas is an absolute gift to any forward thinking Public Transport Planner,or rather it would be anywhere else in civilization.

Right now,with development in the area on-hold,is the exact time the Public Transport providers should be putting their efforts into getting their stuff in place...sadly this latest set of "idea`s" is just more of the same......:mad:

CIE · 08-02-2011 4:55pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Indeed xper,but please do remember the entire Network Direct programme to date has been heavily influenced by Statistics, and lots of them, which the select members of the ND team have thrown on the table as the main reasons for the changes.

It's fair to say that in the Individual Depots the changes as revealed have received a less than fulsome accolade, with even some Local Management figures seen to roll their eyes heavenward

Statistics are actually not the problem; it's their interpretation that has been truly bizarre.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Where staff representations have been taken on board there has been some improvement, as in the 46A which is belatedly settling down to a functional level of operation.

Why it needed some 4 months of turmoil before these representations were taken on board is the real question

I still see that as problematic. The 46A was extended northwards in the past, to the airport. That extension was eventually cut and re-numbered as the 746. Now even that route is gone, along with the routes that ran parallel to it (the 46X and 58X). I'm still convinced that the 10 should come back as it was, and the extensions of the 39A and 46A done away with. (Was it the former 10A that gave them the bad idea of amalgamating the 10's northern leg into the 46A?)

Now mind you, I used to think that the 10 should have taken over the 46A sometimes...but that was with the idea to get rid of that hanging alpha suffix. And speaking of removing alpha suffixes, why is it that the 7B is really the old route 46 but slightly altered (running via Leeson Street instead of Ballsbridge and Kill Lane instead of Johnstown Road) and has nothing to do with route 7?

AlekSmart wrote: »

The 111 routing is an interesting one as it appears, yet again to follow the principle of ignoring some juicy potential.

There has and remains a suggested routing for the 111 which was advanced by local supervisory staff.

Operate the 111 along its current route to Wyattville Road, then along the N11 to Loughlinstown Hospital (incredibly enough, NO existing direct Public Transport link from DunLaoire/Sallynoggin) then via Luas Cherrywood-Cabinteely-Cornelscourt-Carrickmines Cross to terminate at Carrickmines Retail Park.

New alignment, new points of linkage and an opportunity to develop a functional route.

However the suggestion, although first floated some 2 years ago, appears to have been scrunched up in a ball and flung in the bin.

The 111 as first introduced was confusing to me, since it completely duplicated the 7 up until diverting off George Street to terminate at Mallin Station. Having been brought in alongside the old route 58 made things even more confusing, because it duplicated that route as well.

You're absolutely right about them losing opportunities by re-working the route, which has degraded severely over the years (when it started, it had a frequency of 10-15 minutes Monday-Saturday and 20 minutes on Sunday)...but remember, this is the same bus company that cut off places like Foxrock and Carrickmines from city centre service too and is intending to cut off Newcastle (County Dublin, sorry, County South Dublin; they already cut off Newcastle County Wicklow from the city centre) and Rathcoole. Anyone remember that they had to extend the 47 to the city centre in repsonse to passenger demand for that service?

AlekSmart wrote: »

Markpb's concerns re the route 3 are equally valid as they appear to consign the route to a limbo of sorts.

Why not return to having a long-hard-look at Drumcondra Train Station as a potential Terminus for Routes such as the 3 and 7.

It would of course require a degree of co-operation between agencies (:eek:) as currently the area at the side of the Station Embankment, St Anne's Road is given over to Pay and Display Car Parking.

Far too often we are seeing major elements of infrastructure, such as Loughlinstown Hospital, Cherrywood Luas or Drumcondra Station simply ignored because nobody wants to offend the Car driver or the "Business" fraterinity.

The largest failing of Network Direct as a project is the failure to involve all of the Capitals statutory agencies...leaving it all to Dublin Bus just will not work.

I really don't understand what the purpose is of cancelling the 3. So Larkhill will be permanently without a bus service now? never mind the people in Drumcondra and Whitehall that rely on the service? Wasn't too many years ago that they got rid of the 2, after they decided that the extension to Wilfield Park wasn't working; then they brought back the 2 as a duplicate of the 3 (or so I thought) running from the city centre.

With all due respect, I don't see Drumcondra train station working as a bus turn-around. Aside from NIMBY concerns (e.g. St Anne's Road as you mentioned, the rather narrow streets of St Joseph's Avenue and Lower St Alphonsus' Road if that's the turn you were envisioning), having such outer stations as bus termini haven't drummed up the business for either buses or trains like one would think.

Mind you, I'm still wondering what happened to Croke Park as a bus terminus? Now there are no buses serving that area since the end of the 51A, never mind the 23 (which actually terminated there, on Jones' Road underneath the railway bridge, where there isn't a Croke Park railway station either).

There are other concerns too. With the 5 slated to go, will the 17 be the only bus on Mount Merrion Avenue? Also looks like Lower Trees Road in Mount Merrion, which had a continuous bus service for many decades, will be cut off cold.

And oh yes: what happened to the 141?

Carroller16 · 08-02-2011 5:03pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

The lady constantly advising customers of the risk (Minimal) of a €3,000 fine for smoking could just as easily be advising of upcoming ND changes or shouting out contact numbers or e-mail addresses.

As a matter of interest where is this controlled from. Do the drivers press a button to play the message. it seems to come on at random times. I was on a 39a yesterday and it came on 3 times ,, one after the other.

patrickbrophy18 · 08-02-2011 9:34pm

Could the 111 and the 8 be amalgamated?

Given that the 111 is pretty much a stub of the 7 at the moment, a re-alignment and combination could work. The file attached should give y'all a better idea (provided that you have Google Earth).:D

LXFlyer · 08-02-2011 10:09pm

Re the 7a:

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

So all of the area from the Rochestown Lodge to Macintosh loses it's only connection to town? Or the odd 7 will go that way adding confusion?

I would imagine that yes the 59 will be the remaining service for those areas.

But to be fair look at the times the 7a operates - it's completely off-peak with no peak flows. Surely the people can use the far more frequent 59 to Rochestown Avenue and change to a 7, and the buses used more productively elsewhere?

Re the 7b:

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

So taking it off the N11 corridor for quite a distance and dumping it right into very heavy traffic at the end of the ring road in Deansgrance? Or will it continue up to the TK roundabout and up to Bakers?

I would read the route that the 7b would take would be as from Shankill as at present to Bakers Corner, then straight along Abbey Road, left at the TK Roundabout, and straight across Dean's Grange Road onto the Monkstown Ring Road continuing onto Stillorgan Park and then onto the N11.

That would to me be more sensible than the current routing as it means less duplication with the 46a, and giving a service to an area that only has the 46e at present.

Ste.phen · 09-02-2011 12:12pm

Carroller16 wrote: »

As a matter of interest where is this controlled from. Do the drivers press a button to play the message. it seems to come on at random times. I was on a 39a yesterday and it came on 3 times ,, one after the other.

As far as I can tell as a passenger, it plays randomly and frequently any time the PA system is turned on. As a result, the drivers usually don't turn the PA system on.

AlekSmart · 09-02-2011 12:36pm

Posted by Ste.phen : As far as I can tell as a passenger, it plays randomly and frequently any time the PA system is turned on. As a result, the drivers usually don't turn the PA system on.

So Consise and accurate an answer it may as well have come from the manual !!!

pclive · 09-02-2011 1:08pm

Is it not connected to the smoke detector...whenever someone lights up the message is played?

Heart · 09-02-2011 1:43pm

pclive wrote: »

Is it not connected to the smoke detector...whenever someone lights up the message is played?

No, any detector is connected to the Fire Suppression System. The 'No Smoking' announcement is, as correctly stated, wired to the PA system on a 30 minute loop from turning on of the PA system.

H

Cookie_Monster · 09-02-2011 1:51pm

lxflyer wrote: »

That would to me be more sensible than the current routing as it means less duplication with the 46a, and giving a service to an area that only has the 46e at present.

you frequently can't get onto it as its full leaving town when duplicating the 46a only to empty by Foxrock, adding a whole other catchment area to it will reduce the use to Killiney-Shankill users even further as it'll be busier IMO.

It should be a minimum fare bus to cut out all the short hoppers who won't wait another 2 mins for a 46a

AlekSmart · 09-02-2011 2:51pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

It should be a minimum fare bus to cut out all the short hoppers who won't wait another 2 mins for a 46a

An interesting point there Cookie_M.

The entire concept of Minimum Fare is widely misunderstood to mean paying the lowest possible fare when in fact its the exact opposite.

Sadly,Dublin Bus has allowed the simpler yet desirable elements of managing a Bus service to fall into disuse,and the MF is one of these.

Drivers have become unwilling or unable to enforce it as they feel that any resultant complaint from a disgruntled customers will immediately count against them.

There is also now an almost universal internal ignorance of the relevant Stages covered by a sliding minimum fare scale,such as was on the "old" 45,63 0r 84 routes.

This sort of internal collapse was always going to be a consequence of removing the Fare Stage markings from our stops,but sadly appears to be regarded as collateral damage.

Sometimes it`s the lowest-tech solution which works best

Aard · 09-02-2011 3:30pm

Or just have no disembarkment stops from town to Foxrock Church, and in reverse no pick-ups on the way into town.

AlekSmart · 09-02-2011 10:19pm

Aard wrote: »

Or just have no disembarkment stops from town to Foxrock Church, and in reverse no pick-ups on the way into town.

As I said above...sometimes the simplest solutions just WORK!

However if I or any other driver were to suggest such a fiendish thing we might be suspended and investigated for not being "nice" to everybody.

It is essentially turning it into a sortofa kindofa Expresso route,which as the 84X demonsrates,is not something we in DB really grasp....:o

CIE · 13-02-2011 7:00am

Say, does that new road that connects from Drummartin Road in Goatstown to Kilgobbin Road in Sandyford have a name...? because I don't see one on the map. If anyone remembers the old route 62, this looks like the right artery to re-start that old route number on, perhaps running through to Kilternan via Ballyogan and Glenamuck (especially since the 63 was strangely re-routed to Dun Laoghaire); it'd be a more direct way to get from Ballyogan to the city centre than on the 44 and would allow the 44 to run between the city centre and Enniskerry without having to divert via Ballyogan.

Aard · 13-02-2011 10:24am

Drummartin Link Road, AFAIK.

AlekSmart · 13-02-2011 12:25pm

CIE wrote: »

Say, does that new road that connects from Drummartin Road in Goatstown to Kilgobbin Road in Sandyford have a name...? because I don't see one on the map. If anyone remembers the old route 62, this looks like the right artery to re-start that old route number on, perhaps running through to Kilternan via Ballyogan and Glenamuck (especially since the 63 was strangely re-routed to Dun Laoghaire); it'd be a more direct way to get from Ballyogan to the city centre than on the 44 and would allow the 44 to run between the city centre and Enniskerry without having to divert via Ballyogan.

The understatement of the decade,so far.

For any interested observer,the 47,63 and 84 Routes represent some of the most puzzling aspects of Dublin Buses interpretation of the Deloitte "principles".

LXFlyer · 13-02-2011 1:50pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

The understatement of the decade,so far.

For any interested observer,the 47,63 and 84 Routes represent some of the most puzzling aspects of Dublin Buses interpretation of the Deloitte "principles".

I would have interpreted that report as meaning the principle routes on each corridor should be direct, but that you are always going to need other routes that serve the community in a social capacity and that do service estates and bring them closer to other services, such as hospitals (as in the 47 serving St Vincent's), the local authority offices (the 63 links Ballyogan, Carrickmines with the local authority offices in Dun Laoghaire) etc.

If I recall correctly there was a local demand for some considerable time in Ballyogan for a direct bus to Dun Laoghaire which they now have in the form of the 63.

At the end the day the network needs a balance between direct services to/from the city serving commuters and local social services that service the estates, shopping centres, hospitals and local authority services.

CIE · 13-02-2011 5:47pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I would have interpreted that report as meaning the princip(al) routes on each corridor should be direct, but that you are always going to need other routes that serve the community in a social capacity and that do service estates and bring them closer to other services, such as hospitals (as in the 47 serving St Vincent's), the local authority offices (the 63 links Ballyogan, Carrickmines with the local authority offices in Dun Laoghaire) etc.

If I recall correctly there was a local demand for some considerable time in Ballyogan for a direct bus to Dun Laoghaire which they now have in the form of the 63.

At the end the day the network needs a balance between direct services to/from the city serving commuters and local social services that service the estates, shopping centres, hospitals and local authority services.

"Social capacity"? Does that have a definition...?

You don't fix a bus service by breaking it altogether. Carrickmines and Glenamuck are now cut off from the city by bus. The matter of instituting a service between there and Dun Laoghaire should have been a completely separate one from maintaining the 63's traditional city centre operation. (How about route number 113? It hasn't been in use since they used it for an ill-fated "DART Feeder" route between Blackrock and Cabinteely.)

You don't create a balance by eviscerating a network. Consider the absence of the old route 86, which used to be a busy route even into the early 90s. Now what route serves Torquay Road and Brighton Road, or even Westminster Road?

(PS. Why was there one-way operation on the 63 via Kerrymount Avenue for so many years, instead of running bi-directionally on Brighton Road? I suppose the reasoning behind that is the same as why no bridge was built for Clonkeen Road over the Cabinteely Bypass...)

LXFlyer · 13-02-2011 6:34pm

Given the Luas stops in Carrickmines is a direct bus that necessary. As for Glenamuck, I would imagine that the one or two people discommoded will adjust somehow - the way you put it you would think that thousands were affected.

What is it with your constant references in your posts to the way the network was 20 odd years ago? Surprisingly enough travel patterns change as has the city - one can only assume that you have not been here for some considerable time or you would be more aware that for example the 86 carried single digit loads for much of the last 10 years of it's life. You seem to have a complete mental blockage to any changes in the network and to be unable to accept that certain services are just not needed any more due to changes in travel patterns or new infrastructure such as Luas.

The reason for the one way routing along Kerrymount Avenue was very simple. The left turn from Carrickmines onto Brighton Road was too tight for a bus to make...nothing more sinister than that.

KD345 · 13-02-2011 6:51pm

CIE wrote: »

"Social capacity"? Does that have a definition...?

You don't fix a bus service by breaking it altogether. Carrickmines and Glenamuck are now cut off from the city by bus. The matter of instituting a service between there and Dun Laoghaire should have been a completely separate one from maintaining the 63's traditional city centre operation. (How about route number 113? It hasn't been in use since they used it for an ill-fated "DART Feeder" route between Blackrock and Cabinteely.)

You don't create a balance by eviscerating a network. Consider the absence of the old route 86, which used to be a busy route even into the early 90s. Now what route serves Torquay Road and Brighton Road, or even Westminster Road?

The 63 is far from broken. Have you used the new service at all, or are you simply looking at a route from 20 years ago and comparing it to today?

The 63 is carrying good numbers and is now more reliable with the recent timetable change. It has a clock-face timetable, good running time and links many areas together, providing good connections with the N11, Green Line Luas and Dun Laoghaire.

The Green Line Luas has completely changed the travel patterns of bus passengers in this part of the city, and I think the change to the 63 was clever to prevent it dying off altogether.

CIE, I agree with lxflyer. You seem to constantly refer to old routes in every one of your posts and at times it can be confusing. I would also have an interest in routes of the past, but this thread is about Dublin Bus having to adapt to a changing city and reduced revenue. Perhaps a separate thread about old bus routes might be less confusing for those looking for information on future changes.

CIE · 13-02-2011 7:06pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Given the Luas stops in Carrickmines is a direct bus that necessary. As for Glenamuck, I would imagine that the one or two people discommoded will adjust somehow - the way you put it you would think that thousands were affected

That doesn't account for the 63's re-routing. There's a market there for more than your imaginary "one or two" passengers who are multiplied by many more. I don't recall a Luas station on Westminster Road or Torquay Road.

lxflyer wrote: »

What is it with your constant references in your posts to the way the network was 20 odd years ago? Surprisingly enough travel patterns change as has the city - one can only assume that you have not been here for some considerable time or you would be more aware that for example the 86 carried single digit loads for much of the last 10 years of it's life. You seem to have a complete mental blockage to any changes in the network and to be unable to accept that certain services are just not needed any more due to changes in travel patterns or new infrastructure such as Luas

Travel patterns don't change all that much, even with the development of "edge cities" thanks to motorways. The city centre retains its importance, and forcing people to drive there instead of offering them the choice of a reliable bus service is a strain on the economy.

And frankly, I don't understand all the "Luas-centric" thinking as it were. Is the Luas the be all and end all of city transport all of a sudden? The current trend of attempting to force Luas useage by diverting or cancelling city-centre routes is doomed to failure, because it's angering passengers and making them switch to automobiles instead.

lxflyer wrote: »

The reason for the one way routing along Kerrymount Avenue was very simple. The left turn from Carrickmines onto Brighton Road was too tight for a bus to make...nothing more sinister than that

So with all the road improvements done over the past couple of decades, the crossroads at Glenamuck Road/Brighton Road/Cornelscourt Hill Road/Brennanstown Road couldn't be improved enough to allow a bus to turn left from Glenamuck Road onto Brighton Road? (Oh wait; yes it was...so that fabrication is in the rubbish bin, never mind the fact that during the so-called "tight" left turn days, the 63 was running single-deck Leyland Leopards that were later replaced with KC-class single-deckers with a very tight turning radius) and all the people that live in these developments along Glenamuck Road would rather drive to town and ride the bus to Dun Laoghaire? The Luas does not offer the same range of destinations, is cramped and of limited capacity (especially compared with a DART; could the Green Line even be converted to DART at this point?), is less secure, and current government policy is resulting in balkanisation of the city bus network in the hope that it will somehow "benefit" one particular transport mode. Great way to discourage travel around Dublin by public means, or travel into Dublin at all.

(BTW, I continue to presume that my idea for a "new" route 62 is still viable...)

markpb · 13-02-2011 7:10pm

CIE wrote: »

And frankly, I don't understand all the "Luas-centric" thinking as it were. Is the Luas the be all and end all of city transport all of a sudden? The current trend of attempting to force Luas useage by diverting or cancelling city-centre routes is doomed to failure, because it's angering passengers and making them switch to automobiles instead.

What's the point in paying DB and RPA to serve both the same areas and routes? What proof do you have that it's angering passengers? The lack of integrated ticketing might anger them but it's very close now.

KD345 · 13-02-2011 8:11pm

CIE wrote: »

The city centre retains its importance, and forcing people to drive there instead of offering them the choice of a reliable bus service is a strain on the economy.

And frankly, I don't understand all the "Luas-centric" thinking as it were. Is the Luas the be all and end all of city transport all of a sudden? The current trend of attempting to force Luas useage by diverting or cancelling city-centre routes is doomed to failure, because it's angering passengers and making them switch to automobiles instead.

Where bus and Luas run side by side, passengers have switched to Luas. You only have to look at passenger numbers on the 48a and 56a for evidence of this. Passengers are not being forced to drive, the 63 still covers the same key areas, more frequently than before, and offers them connections with Luas and the 145 on the N11. The previous 63 had 12 services, this new 63 has 32. This is far more attractive to anybody considering using the service in Kilternan and Carrickmines to know there is an all day 30 minute frequency.

I know some people in the area who now use the service to get to Dun Laoghaire. Any time I have used it recently, the loadings have been very good. I really don't understand your belief that this route is "broken", "doomed" and "angering passengers".

The Luas does not offer the same range of destinations, is cramped and of limited capacity

The Green Line Luas beyond Sandyford is certainly not cramped, and capacity is fine.

CIE, have you used the new 63 or Luas in the Carrickmines area?

Conway635 · 13-02-2011 8:26pm

CIE wrote: »

So with all the road improvements done over the past couple of decades, the crossroads at Glenamuck Road/Brighton Road/Cornelscourt Hill Road/Brennanstown Road couldn't be improved enough to allow a bus to turn left from Glenamuck Road onto Brighton Road? (Oh wait; yes it was...so that fabrication is in the rubbish bin, never mind the fact that during the so-called "tight" left turn days, the 63 was running single-deck Leyland Leopards that were later replaced with KC-class single-deckers with a very tight turning radius)

CIE, by the time that road improvement was made, the 63 routing had already been changed to carry on straight through the junction, and down the hill to Cornelscourt Hill, and into the city that way.

With the exception of a couple of offpeak trips, the 63 has not been serving Foxrock Village for several years now.

C635

LXFlyer · 13-02-2011 8:35pm

CIE wrote: »

That doesn't account for the 63's re-routing. There's a market there for more than your imaginary "one or two" passengers who are multiplied by many more. I don't recall a Luas station on Westminster Road or Torquay Road.Travel patterns don't change all that much, even with the development of "edge cities" thanks to motorways. The city centre retains its importance, and forcing people to drive there instead of offering them the choice of a reliable bus service is a strain on the economy.

And frankly, I don't understand all the "Luas-centric" thinking as it were. Is the Luas the be all and end all of city transport all of a sudden? The current trend of attempting to force Luas useage by diverting or cancelling city-centre routes is doomed to failure, because it's angering passengers and making them switch to automobiles instead.So with all the road improvements done over the past couple of decades, the crossroads at Glenamuck Road/Brighton Road/Cornelscourt Hill Road/Brennanstown Road couldn't be improved enough to allow a bus to turn left from Glenamuck Road onto Brighton Road? (Oh wait; yes it was...so that fabrication is in the rubbish bin, never mind the fact that during the so-called "tight" left turn days, the 63 was running single-deck Leyland Leopards that were later replaced with KC-class single-deckers with a very tight turning radius) and all the people that live in these developments along Glenamuck Road would rather drive to town and ride the bus to Dun Laoghaire? The Luas does not offer the same range of destinations, is cramped and of limited capacity (especially compared with a DART; could the Green Line even be converted to DART at this point?), is less secure, and current government policy is resulting in balkanisation of the city bus network in the hope that it will somehow "benefit" one particular transport mode. Great way to discourage travel around Dublin by public means, or travel into Dublin at all.

(BTW, I continue to presume that my idea for a "new" route 62 is still viable...)

Whatever you might like to think "CIE", the reality is that loadings on the 63 and 86 were frankly decimated when the Stillorgan QBC was introduced - people simply voted with their feet onto the 46a.

The subsequent introduction of the LUAS green line saw passenger numbers drop substantially on the bus routes that ran along the LUAS and before you ask, in most cases the existing bus frequency continued operating for several months after the launch of the LUAS.

No matter how you want to paint it, and I admire your enthusiasm for the bus, the fact is that people left it in droves out of their own choice! No matter how you want to dress it up you're not going to change that, and the bus company needs to change the network to accept that reality.

As for the the junction at Carrickmines Road/Brighton Road - the redevelopment of the road and the widening of that junction all happened subsequent to the 63 being re-routed via Cornelscourt Hill Road, and not before.

Your view of my explanation regarding why buses operated via Kerrymount Avenue at Carrickmines as a "fabrication" I would suggest is somewhat insulting, given it is actually the truth. But sure you don't believe it so it must be wrong.

Sometimes, just sometimes, it is actually a good thing to accept that you might be incorrect and that someone else who explains something to you in good faith is right rather than descending into somewhat insulting retorts and trying to bluster your way out of the situation?

As for your suggestion re the 62 -I just cannot see it being viable. Ballyogan has the LUAS and people out of their own free will are using it rather than the bus. The 11 more than adquately serves Kilmacud/Goatstown. The LUAS green line is a far superior product and where people have the option of using it they appear to do exactly that.

FridaysWell · 13-02-2011 8:37pm

CIE wrote: »

Say, does that new road that connects from Drummartin Road in Goatstown to Kilgobbin Road in Sandyford have a name...? because I don't see one on the map. If anyone remembers the old route 62, this looks like the right artery to re-start that old route number on, perhaps running through to Kilternan via Ballyogan and Glenamuck (especially since the 63 was strangely re-routed to Dun Laoghaire); it'd be a more direct way to get from Ballyogan to the city centre than on the 44 and would allow the 44 to run between the city centre and Enniskerry without having to divert via Ballyogan.

Sorry whats with everyones fascination in 'bringing back' old route numbers and all that?? Look, we don't need stuff like that, we need a bloody efficent service, one that works, and this is the place to discuss it, well discuss Dublin Bus's attempt at it i.e Network Direct.

So stop talking about old services and all and lets start talking about the existing problems, how to solve them and what to do about it. Yes I understand your saying this is one way that Ballyogan can have a dirent link to the city centre, but the 44 seems to be fine and don't forget the Luas is running through there now, most people are going to switch to that, and anyways Ballyogan isn't a hug area there isn't a huge market there for a new service.

Back to the real world, anyone know what the story with the 11 is?
Nothing on the Dublin Bus website or from any drivers I've asked, but people here talking about it being cut off from the northside and being re-routed from the IFSC to Sandyford. ****ing stupid if you ask me. Keep that service Dublin Bus, it WORKS!

The 37, 38, 39 and 70 why don't they make life easier for everybody and terminate those buses at Wilton Terrace? Plenty of room, good city centre terminus etc. Baggot Street is a terrible place for a terminus, 10 mins to Suffolk street, and all that traffic and congestion...

The 17. Great service, as in the route is pretty uselful to whoever lives on it. I use it alot. Now why is it so unreliable? E.g this happened several times, bus due to leave Rialto at 9.35 am (weekdays) I get to my bus stop, which is 5 mins away from the terminus, at 9.25 am. By 10.00 am no bus has shown up and I get the 10.15 am bus, wasting my bloody time. This happened quite a few times, why does a bus thats due not turn up at all? Does it not exist? And don't tell me its because of running times, because its just not...

If Dublin Bus take the service they provide and themselves seriously, and if they really cared, we would have a bus service that works.

We live in a 'modern' city and the bus service is embarresing.

LXFlyer · 13-02-2011 8:50pm

FridaysWell wrote: »

Sorry whats with everyones fascination in 'bringing back' old route numbers and all that?? Look, we don't need stuff like that, we need a bloody efficent service, one that works, and this is the place to discuss it, well discuss Dublin Bus's attempt at it i.e Network Direct.

So stop talking about old services and all and lets start talking about the existing problems, how to solve them and what to do about it. Yes I understand your saying this is one way that Ballyogan can have a dirent link to the city centre, but the 44 seems to be fine and don't forget the Luas is running through there now, most people are going to switch to that, and anyways Ballyogan isn't a hug area there isn't a huge market there for a new service.

Back to the real world, anyone know what the story with the 11 is?
Nothing on the Dublin Bus website or from any drivers I've asked, but people here talking about it being cut off from the northside and being re-routed from the IFSC to Sandyford. ****ing stupid if you ask me. Keep that service Dublin Bus, it WORKS!

The 37, 38, 39 and 70 why don't they make life easier for everybody and terminate those buses at Wilton Terrace? Plenty of room, good city centre terminus etc. Baggot Street is a terrible place for a terminus, 10 mins to Suffolk street, and all that traffic and congestion...

The 17. Great service, as in the route is pretty uselful to whoever lives on it. I use it alot. Now why is it so unreliable? E.g this happened several times, bus due to leave Rialto at 9.35 am (weekdays) I get to my bus stop, which is 5 mins away from the terminus, at 9.25 am. By 10.00 am no bus has shown up and I get the 10.15 am bus, wasting my bloody time. This happened quite a few times, why does a bus thats due not turn up at all? Does it not exist? And don't tell me its because of running times, because its just not...

If Dublin Bus take the service they provide and themselves seriously, and if they really cared, we would have a bus service that works.

We live in a 'modern' city and the bus service is embarresing.

I understand that Wilton Terrace was vetoed as a large scale bus terminus by Dublin City Council on health and safety grounds as they are introducing a cycleway along the canal - hence the bus company had to find somewhere else for the routes to terminate.

I would imagine that we'll find out the plans for the 11 when they get around to the consultations on the Swords Road/Glasnevin and Rathmines/Ranelagh areas - to be fair to them if they put everything up at once the deluge of responses would be impossible to sift through - it is generally better to phase these things.

FridaysWell · 13-02-2011 9:08pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I understand that Wilton Terrace was vetoed as a large scale bus terminus by Dublin City Council on health and safety grounds as they are introducing a cycleway along the canal - hence the bus company had to find somewhere else for the routes to terminate.

I would imagine that we'll find out the plans for the 11 when they get around to the consultations on the Swords Road/Glasnevin and Rathmines/Ranelagh areas - to be fair to them if they put everything up at once the deluge of responses would be impossible to sift through - it is generally better to phase these things.

Parked/Slow Moving buses wouldn't be a problem for cyclists... Typical Irish response, does anyone take their jobs seriously or at least care to do it right?

I understand what you mean when you say they can't put everything up at once, just that alot of people on this were commenting on changes to the 11 and wit nothing from Dublin Bus I just wanted to see a source.
To be honest Ranelagh hardly has a bus service to speak of... Tis terrible. It be so easy to organise bus services across this city... If someone gives me a tenner I'll draw up my proposals for the city

LXFlyer · 13-02-2011 9:15pm

FridaysWell wrote: »

Parked/Slow Moving buses wouldn't be a problem for cyclists... Typical Irish response, does anyone take their jobs seriously or at least care to do it right?

I understand what you mean when you say they can't put everything up at once, just that alot of people on this were commenting on changes to the 11 and wit nothing from Dublin Bus I just wanted to see a source.
To be honest Ranelagh hardly has a bus service to speak of... Tis terrible. It be so easy to organise bus services across this city... If someone gives me a tenner I'll draw up my proposals for the city

It could have been a problem, given there were originally plans for the 25/a/b, 26, 38/a, 39, 66/a/b, 67 and 70 all terminating there along with Bus Eireann route 100X. That's a lot of buses!! The cycleway is going to be encroaching on what is the street currently and on those grounds DCC didn't want a large scale terminus there.

Things are rarely straightforward!

As for the potential changes to the 11 - the source (as posted earlier in this thread) was what the company told the unions last year. Again though as above in outer areas, the reality is that many people in Ranelagh have also switched from the bus to LUAS out of their own free will.

FridaysWell · 13-02-2011 9:21pm

lxflyer wrote: »

It could have been a problem, given there were originally plans for the 25/a/b, 26, 38/a, 39, 66/a/b, 67 and 70 all terminating there along with Bus Eireann route 100X. That's a lot of buses!! The cycleway is going to be encroaching on what is the street currently and on those grounds DCC didn't want a large scale terminus there.

Things are rarely straightforward!

As for the potential changes to the 11 - the source (as posted earlier in this thread) was what the company told the unions last year. Again though as above in outer areas, the reality is that many people in Ranelagh have also switched from the bus to LUAS out of their own free will.

No thats true I forgot to say that, many people have switched to the LUAS in Ranelagh. But there are parts to it that do need a bus service, a decent one anyways, especially if the 11 is to be changed. Like the parts were Milltown and Ranelagh meet etc.

ardmacha · 13-02-2011 9:34pm

Consider the absence of the old route 86, which used to be a busy route even into the early 90s. Now what route serves Torquay Road and Brighton Road, or even Westminster Road?

The "old route 86" was designed to replace the Harcourt St line, was it not? So it would be the one most rendered redundant by the LUAS.

As for the 11, the extension of the 11A along the old 46B route in Mount Merrion would seem obvious, as posted here by Aleksmart and others.

CIE · 13-02-2011 9:51pm

ardmacha wrote: »

The "old route 86" was designed to replace the Harcourt St line, was it not? So it would be the one most rendered redundant by the LUAS.

As for the 11, the extension of the 11A along the old 46B route in Mount Merrion would seem obvious, as posted here by Aleksmart and others.

I wasn't talking about North and South Avenues.

And the Luas Green Line does not serve every point formerly served by the 86. It is not accessible from Torquay Road, Brighton Road, Cornelscourt Hill Road, the centre of Cabinteely, Johnstown Road or Rochestown Avenue (where the 86 was routed in the 1970s onwards). Nor does it serve the centre of Stillorgan, just like the 86 did not serve the former Carrickmines station location (the 63 did).

AlekSmart · 14-02-2011 1:39am

lxflyer: I understand that Wilton Terrace was vetoed as a large scale bus terminus by Dublin City Council on health and safety grounds as they are introducing a cycleway along the canal - hence the bus company had to find somewhere else for the routes to terminate.

Yes indeed,and my understanding is the veto only surfaced at the 11th hour leaving Dublin Bus in a bit of a pickle,what with having designed all these improved routes with a particiular terminus in mind...Oh well...it`s part of what we are...:o

Fridays Well: The 37, 38, 39 and 70 why don't they make life easier for everybody and terminate those buses at Wilton Terrace? Plenty of room, good city centre terminus etc. Baggot Street is a terrible place for a terminus, 10 mins to Suffolk street, and all that traffic and congestion...

Ah but of course....Baggot St...there ye go...Problem Solved....sorta...kinda....:rolleyes:

Poor oul Deloitte...all that consulting...all that number crunching...and to what end...?

LXFlyer · 14-02-2011 10:15am

CIE wrote: »

I wasn't talking about North and South Avenues.

And the Luas Green Line does not serve every point formerly served by the 86. It is not accessible from Torquay Road, Brighton Road, Cornelscourt Hill Road, the centre of Cabinteely, Johnstown Road or Rochestown Avenue (where the 86 was routed in the 1970s onwards). Nor does it serve the centre of Stillorgan, just like the 86 did not serve the former Carrickmines station location (the 63 did).

Why would anyone from any of those areas take the 86 which meandered via Upper Kilmacud, Dundrum, Milltown and Ranelagh, encountering heavy traffic en route, when within a short walk they have a high frequency service in the form of the 46a and/or the 145 that operates directly to the city and has a bus lane for virtually the entire route.

Answer? They didn't. They voted with their feet and switched.

You really need to move on from the bus network as it was 20 years ago. Times have changed and people have too.

backboiler · 14-02-2011 2:21pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Poor oul Deloitte...all that consulting...all that number crunching...and to what end...?

A big bag o' money?

Anyway I'm sure they'll get another go at it in a couple of years when the balls-up currently under way is complete.

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