Dublin Bus Network Review

Firehen

This requires Dublin Bus to be informative.

I've been on buses before where the driver has gone the wrong way and has insisted he was right and all the passengers were wrong.

I've experienced drivers getting instructions to bypass certain parts of a route over the radio.

And I'm sure I'm not alone in checking a timetable at a bus stop only to find its out of date or doesn't have the times for the route I need.

Their customer service is terrible and I'm terrified as to what will happen if/when they implement this mass overhaul in my area.

Cookie_Monster

Firehen wrote: »

This requires Dublin Bus to be informative.

don't hold you breath

I've been on buses before where the driver has gone the wrong way and has insisted he was right and all the passengers were wrong.

happens more than you'd think. I've had friends who've been asked the bus route before too.

I've experienced drivers getting instructions to bypass certain parts of a route over the radio.

very frequent on 45 (Loughlinstown to Deansgrange ) and 84 at Stillorgan

And I'm sure I'm not alone in checking a timetable at a bus stop only to find its out of date or doesn't have the times for the route I need.

or in fact timtables for buses that do not stop there

Their customer service is terrible and I'm terrified as to what will happen if/when they implement this mass overhaul in my area.

+1

Firehen

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

happens more than you'd think. I've had friends who've been asked the bus route before too.

I've been asked the bus route once before. That, I didn't mind. But when a driver deviates from a route I'm familiar with and insists they are correct, that what really ticks me off.

devnull

Heard that the next phase will take place on 31st October, any truth in that?

Stevek101

For Blanch it is the 31st, not too sure about Lucan.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/News-Centre/Travel-News/Routes-51b-51c-51d-68-69-69x-/

Moving of the 51's to Hawkin's Street on the 31st would definitely seal the deal for the Blanch routes

devnull

Perhaps, but given their track record in the last month or so with regards to information (Many stops STILL do not have timetables up), I can just see the chaos that is going to be caused with pax on the 1b, 51c, 51d, 68, 69, 69x turning up at the Quays and wondering what the hell is going on!

To be honest we should not even be talking about more changes until we get the initial batch ironed out. The more work they put off and plough on regardless, the bigger mess there will be further down the line.

oneweb

They timetable and route information has been taken down from at least one stop on Blanch Road South, let the confusion begin!

AlekSmart

To be honest we should not even be talking about more changes until we get the initial batch ironed out. The more work they put off and plough on regardless, the bigger mess there will be further down the line

Absolutely 100% in agreement here Devnull.

The Phase 1 revisions are far from being provenly fit-for-purpose and the notion that "tweaking" will make a silk purse of it are,I believe,far of the mark.

There is,as yet,no admission that Phase 1 was mishandled from the off.
Unfortunately,without that admission,what we are left with is a (reputational) damage limitation exercise which neatly avoids the central issue.

It has to be remembered that the other elements of Phase 1,namely the 63 and 84 route revisions have not exactly been a proven generator of new or repeat Public Transport ridership either.

The extent and nature of the Phase 1 failures have left us now facing an uphill battle to regain both trust and longer term business,on a vital core corridor.

I`m far from certain that senior DB management have caught the mood of their customers to the same extent as their Drivers have.

The extent of the acrimony and ill feeling that has been visited upon Busdrivers over the past 6 weeks is hugely difficult to pass on to a Middle or Senior Manager thoroughly engrossed the the finer points of a Power Point presentation to some Very Important Politician,and it is this detachment that continues to worry me.

backboiler

Regarding these changes discussed here for the 11 routes, does anyone have any visibility on what the perceived problem with the Wadelai to City Centre section actually is and how a merge with the 19a is supposed to improve that situation?

I suppose a (rambling) statement of interests is appropriate for anyone joining this discussion:
I live near the 19 and 83 routes. I'm not overjoyed about the halving of the service but in fairness for a lot of their northern route they're the same so it probably makes sense. That's no consolation to anyone wanting to get to Kimmage or Rathmines. The option inbound was effectively halved a year or two back anyway with the dropping of the 83 stop outside the Ballygall/Fitzmaurice Rd. shops (to stop people running across the road when an 83 came as they waited for a 19 near the Cremore House).

Weekdays, I normally walk the 10 minutes to get one of the 11's in the morning from Wadelai travelling to Sandyford (normally transferring to Luas at Ranelagh - because the Clonskeagh section is so slow). This is because Phibsborough and its no-bus-lane approaches (Mobhi Rd./Botanic Rd. junction) can add half an hour to the journey time, ruling out the 4 (which only gets to within the length of Grafton St. of the Luas anyway), 13 (same), 19, 19a and 83 (Luas transfer available near Bleeding Horse).
True, the 11's can get pinched at the Home Farm Road junction at Drumcondra Road but apart from that it's relatively free-running. The 13a's closest approach to the Luas is also at Trinity and terminates at Merrion Square (by which time it's generally nearly empty anyway).
I'm not much for keeping regular hours so my journeys vary from 07:30 up to 10:30, usually between 8 and 9 though. In this hour the bus is always standing room only by the time it's passing the AIB/Tolka Bridge/Fagan's pub stop. Even the later ones usually have decent loading (though it generally shorter hops in my casual observances) so I'm presuming that isn't the problem.

I'm mystified the the only bus route where I've had experience of it being reliable both in departure times (usually to the second) and journey time is being withdrawn.

AlekSmart

Regarding these changes discussed here for the 11 routes,

It is indeed difficult to address Backboiler`s points re the Route 11 Network Direct proposals.

As the changes are not due to occur until Phase 2/3 they have not been fleshed out in any great detail.

From what little is known the entire Northern alignment of the 11 route is being withdrawn.

The Route will lose 5 Buses,approximating to 8 driving duties and will then operate from Sandyford to the IFSC with the routing as yet not revealed.

To say that the Route 11 Proposals are difficult to comprehend is an understatement especially in the context of the Deloitte Report.

It is worth noting that the 11 route meets most of the positive criteria outlined by Deloitte for a Bus Route as it provides a direct link between centres of education,population and commercial activity as well as resedential areas.

With over 100 years as a public transport route initially between Clonskeagh and Drumcondra it still to many minds performs a very desireable function.

It directly links many centres of education in DCU/TCD/UCD/St Patricks College/Milltown Institute along a single corridor in addition to linking these locations with the Commuter Rail network at Drumcondra Station.

Since it`s merger with the 62 Route and resultant extension to Kilmacud and at peak times Sandyford Industrial Estate the route has lost some of it`s edge.

Since the opening of Luas,Several suggested revisions have come to nothing,although it`s fair to say Luas has had far greater effect on the Sandyford Estate business than on other area`s of the route.

The 11 Route on the Northside benefits greatly from a significant array of Bus Priority Measures with Bus Lane virtually all the way from O Connell St to Home Farm Road and then again along Ballymun Road and Mobhi Road inbound.

A very minor and long sought Bus Lane addition at the Bottom of Home Farm Road/Drumcondra Road junction would eliminate the slight morning-peak difficulty at this location.

However the Southside alignment suffers greatly in having NO Bus Priority at all from Appian Way to the Kilmacud Terminus....yet bizzarrely the Southside alignment is retained whilst the fully Prioritized Northside alignment is axed..

There is also quite a bit of local opposition from residents of the HomeFarm Road area who are being recommended to make their way to Griffith Avenue,Mobhi Road or Drumcondra to avail of replacement services.

The replacements being mooted thus far are a 19A re-alignment which may see certain journeys travel via Glasnevin Drive/Delville Rd/St Pappin Rd to rejoin Ballymun Road at DCU Gate.

There is also some talk of "enhanced" 13/13A services offering more frequent services if customers make their way down to Ballymun Road.

However the recent fiasco with the "attractivization" of the 4 route and the disappearance of the 4A has polarized many local residents and made them very wary of Dublin Bus PR announcements,perhaps with no little justification ?

I believe it would be well nigh impossible to craft a Bus Route as well fitted to the Urban Bus service ideal as the 11 is.

Dublin Bus themselves,or at least a constituent part thereof,even recommend the 11A as one of the alternatives for customers disenfranchised by the loss of the 46B and 47 routes in such short order.

The company appear not to notice the irony of their Sword of Damocles swinging over that very 11A now.
Nobody appears to have paid any attention to Driver suggestions to improve the 11A service and extend it to Kilmacud via the old 46B alignment thus returning a service to Mount Merrion

What remains scarcely credible is the total lack of any application towards implimenting Bus Priorities along the Southern alignment,with long running battles to get even Bus Bay markings and Parking Restrictions enforced in the Chelmsford Rd/Ranelagh Village area.

Constant reporting of illegal parking,obstruction and other elements result in zero action and contribute greatly to further obstruction to service provision.

In conclusion it appears that rather than address or confront the difficulties being imposed upon the southern leg of the 11 route,the company are amputating the healthy leg and hoping the withered one will rejuvenate.

Hope thus springs eternal.

Dyr

AlekSmart wrote: »

There is also some talk of "enhanced" 13/13A services offering more frequent services if customers make their way down to Ballymun Road.

Can't see extra buses improving it if all they'll do is merge the 13/A and 11. Same amount of buses and commuters, just less route diversity. The 13/A is packed and unreliable in peak periods as it is.

AlekSmart

Bambi there`s no mention of "merging" the 11 with any other route.
As it stands the North Side element is being withdrawn...end of...full stop.

Existing customers are being directed to other services running nearby some of which will be "enhanced" presumably to cater for any increase in ridership.....that is as much as we know at the moment.

SafetyPin

AlekSmart wrote: »

Bambi there`s no mention of "merging" the 11 with any other route.
As it stands the North Side element is being withdrawn...end of...full stop.

Actually AlekSmart - notice in my door states that 13/a to be combined and to replace the northern leg of the 11 (Home Farm Road-Drumcondra to city) and the 19a will travel up St Pappins Road to Wadelai Park and back onto it's current route to Jamestown Road ( or as through the grapevine to Charlsetown)

ardmacha

It directly links many centres of education in DCU/TCD/UCD/St Patricks College/Milltown Institute along a single corridor in addition to linking these locations with the Commuter Rail network at Drumcondra Station.

The 11 would seem a useful service. Some priority on the southside and perhaps a reexamination of the Leeson St leg might help. If the government now owns AIB, can we demolish their branch near UCD, put it somewhere else, and widen things there.

Nobody appears to have paid any attention to Driver suggestions to improve the 11A service and extend it to Kilmacud via the old 46B alignment thus returning a service to Mount Merrion

This would seem to be a no brainer.

AlekSmart

Thanks Safetypin, Information in-house is hard to come by as there are few,if any updates provided to Staff,so we are constantly having to respond to customers who have differing leaflets supplied by Local Politicians,many with vastly differing interpretations of what DB management supposedly told them

Actually AlekSmart - notice in my door states that 13/a to be combined and to replace the northern leg of the 11 (Home Farm Road-Drumcondra to city) and the 19a will travel up St Pappins Road to Wadelai Park and back onto it's current route to Jamestown Road ( or as through the grapevine to Charlsetown)

The above would be just that sort of information....I cannot confirm or deny it`s veracity,but it is true that Charlestown is the mooted 19A terminus.

This is the first I have heard of a 13/13A merger,which if it is similar to the 4/4A exercise already carried out should give real cause for concern,as it harks right back to the day`s of the 36 !!!!!! :eek:

Dyr

SafetyPin wrote: »

Actually AlekSmart - notice in my door states that 13/a to be combined and to replace the northern leg of the 11 (Home Farm Road-Drumcondra to city) and the 19a will travel up St Pappins Road to Wadelai Park and back onto it's current route to Jamestown Road ( or as through the grapevine to Charlsetown)

Where you living? haven't seen any notice in ballymun. Do dublin bus not realise that their buses and bus stops are the obvious points of contact to reach their customers?

backboiler

ardmacha wrote: »

can we demolish their branch near UCD, put it somewhere else, and widen things there.

From my, admittedly limited, experience, knocking the Goat and grade-separating that junction would make a bigger difference. Sure we may as well take out Ranelagh main street as well, when we're at it.

KC61

Bambi wrote: »

Where you living? haven't seen any notice in ballymun. Do dublin bus not realise that their buses and bus stops are the obvious points of contact to reach their customers?

This is coming from local politicians - there have been no official announcements yet for that area as it is in a later phase of the project.

trellheim

and once again, DCU will lose out, this is two of the key feeder routes mucked around ( 11 and 4 which really leaves just the 19a ....)

Cookie_Monster

Re 84

many seem to bypass Stillorgan village (i've seen several do it) and this poster reports they are bypassing Cherrywood and Bray Dart too http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68634193&postcount=58

What gives?

Bazzer2

trellheim wrote: »

and once again, DCU will lose out, this is two of the key feeder routes mucked around ( 11 and 4 which really leaves just the 19a ....)

Is it just me, or do the DCU students think the 19A is the only route into the City? Any time I see them, they're trying to stuff themselves onto an already-crowded 19A, letting the 4, 11, 11A, 11B, 13 and 13A fly by.

Cookie_Monster

Bazzer2 wrote: »

Is it just me, or do the DCU students think the 19A is the only route into the City? Any time I see them, they're trying to stuff themselves onto an already-crowded 19A, letting the 4, 11, 11A, 11B, 13 and 13A fly by.

they do go different places from DCU you know...

AlekSmart

What gives?

What giveth,Cookie_Monster is what has come to be the defining element of Network Direct thus far,namely,a complete lack of appreciation of the term..."Running Time".

I rather suspect that the 84`s are unable to make their new improved running time and are being regulated by Central Control in an attempt to cobble together a service.

Foggy_Lad has been to the fore in alledging some form of Driver action as the root of evil,however I can assure him that Drivers are being hugely observant of the schedules as issued.

Remember that the root of the Deloitte Report was Noel Dempsey`s "suspicion" of innefficiency.
He`s not a regular on either the 46A or 145,that`s for sure :rolleyes:

Phase 1 of ND has thrown up some worrying examples of the difference between Senior Managerial/Regulatory expectations and that of actual daily reality.

Either this difference of interpretation is brought centre-stage and addressed,or the entire Network Direct plan is in danger of imploding and taking the company with it.

(Some conspiracy theorists are putting this forward as the actual end-game).

The Network Direct team appear not to give enough credence to the actual situation on Dublin Bus services,whereby we combine a) vehicles designed to impede passenger throughput. b) a cash based fare/stage regieme concieved for Two Person operation and c) Roadside infrastructure (or lack thereof) with little adaptibility for rapid access/egress.

The part-time City Centre Bus-Gate remains centre stage amongst the City Administration as some form of gigantic Magic Bean which when swallowed will purge the City of Public Transport innefficiency.....if only...:rolleyes:

I firmly believe that Deloitte needed to focus on area`s other than the Bus Platform for it`s investigation into Mr Dempsey`s suspicions.
Had they tried this they might well have unearthed a hornets nest of problem items which would have provided fantastic improvements if addressed.

When the PR puffery is stripped back,what we are left with is yer pretty standard cost-cutting exercise,and not a particularly inventive one either...There`s still time to regroup and salvage something but that is also fast running out....along with customer patience

thomasj

Blanchardstown timetables now appearing on website!

devnull

Finglas South and West now introduced into Phase 1:
http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Network-Direct-Phase-1/Finglas-West-and-South/

As is Ballyfermot:
http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Network-Direct-Phase-1/Ballyfermot-/

These were supposed to be introduced in later phases, originally but have now been brought forward to be in this phase.

This is now getting a complete mess, the first very small part of phase one has been a complete disaster, so not only are they ploughing ahead with the rest of phase one regardless, they are expanding it to cover yet more areas.

Seriously is it a competition to see how much mess they can possibly cause to completely destroy customer and commuter confidence, because that's the only reason I can come up with.

Sort out the problems with the existing routes, the lack of information, overcrowding, lack of running time and all the other issues BEFORE you plough ahead with yet more changes.

Words really fail me. The way they are carrying on regardless is like the review has been a roaring success.

markpb

The new 17a timetable is much the same as before. Mondays to Fridays loose 5 departures a day (3%), Saturdays lose 1 (2%) and Sundays lose 7 (23%). It was initially advertised as having a high frequency timetable but I guess I can't complain - at least it didn't get massacred like the 4.

It will have to take a very windy route to serve Beaumont Hospital though so I can't see it being as fast as it used to be for short journeys (to make connections). Between that and the cutting of the 27B from my road, the bus is rapidly losing it's appeal to me

KC61

Full revised timetables for Blanchardstown:

Route 17a

Route 37

Route 38

Route 38a

Route 39

Route 39a

Route 70

Route 220

Route 236

Route 238

Route 239

Route 270

10, 10a, 37x, 39x, 70a, 70b, 70x and 237 withdrawn. No change to 76a at this stage.

CIE

devnull wrote: »

Finglas South and West now introduced into Phase 1 ... As is Ballyfermot ...

These were supposed to be introduced in later phases originally, but have now been brought forward to be in this phase.

Still not clear which route that the new 79 is supposed to take towards Beaumont Hospital. The PDF file on DB's web site said that the northern terminus was supposed to be Castletimon, too.

And re-amalgamating the 40 and 40A? Repeating a past mistake that they had to undo?? Reminds me of the proverb about the dog returning to its emesis. (Ah, but maybe the 140 solves all of that, or maybe not.) The 17A/220 amalgamation will destroy reliability too. How about re-using some disused bus route numbers as well? The 83 is long enough established as the McKelvey Avenue/Harristown route, so why not call the 40D by the number 34 (would fit better with 38 and 39 in the Blanchardstown area) and change the 40B to the 35 once and for all (it's been running over the old 35 route for ages).

This is now getting a complete mess, the first very small part of phase one has been a complete disaster, so not only are they ploughing ahead with the rest of phase one regardless, they are expanding it to cover yet more areas.

Seriously is it a competition to see how much mess they can possibly cause to completely destroy customer and commuter confidence, because that's the only reason I can come up with.

Sort out the problems with the existing routes, the lack of information, overcrowding, lack of running time and all the other issues BEFORE you plough ahead with yet more changes.

Words really fail me. The way they are carrying on regardless is like the review has been a roaring success.

Lack of accountability to the public? They made the exact same promises twenty years ago when they blew public money on the various "branding" of routes, especially CitySwift and City Imp (CitySpeed to a lesser degree, today's "Xpresso"; I prefer the former name because the latter name gives me heartburn)..."frequency every five minutes", "no waiting for a bus", "QBCs will change traffic lights in bus' favour", blah blah blah. The vast majority of the public are not muppet-heads and do know what's going on; the people at the top should not mistake sarcasm for apathy.

KC61

devnull wrote: »

Finglas South and West now introduced into Phase 1:
http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Network-Direct-Phase-1/Finglas-West-and-South/

As is Ballyfermot:
http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Network-Direct-Phase-1/Ballyfermot-/

These were supposed to be introduced in later phases, originally but have now been brought forward to be in this phase.

This is now getting a complete mess, the first very small part of phase one has been a complete disaster, so not only are they ploughing ahead with the rest of phase one regardless, they are expanding it to cover yet more areas.

Seriously is it a competition to see how much mess they can possibly cause to completely destroy customer and commuter confidence, because that's the only reason I can come up with.

Sort out the problems with the existing routes, the lack of information, overcrowding, lack of running time and all the other issues BEFORE you plough ahead with yet more changes.

Words really fail me. The way they are carrying on regardless is like the review has been a roaring success.

Ballyfermot and Finglas South were never in the list of major phases - they are fairly minor changes in the greater context.

KC61

CIE wrote: »

Still not clear which route that the new 79 is supposed to take towards Beaumont Hospital. The PDF file on DB's web site said that the northern terminus was supposed to be Castletimon, too.

And re-amalgamating the 40 and 40A? Repeating a past mistake that they had to undo?? Reminds me of the proverb about the dog returning to its emesis. (Ah, but maybe the 140 solves all of that, or maybe not.) The 17A/220 amalgamation will destroy reliability too. How about re-using some disused bus route numbers as well? The 83 is long enough established as the McKelvey Avenue/Harristown route, so why not call the 40D by the number 34 (would fit better with 38 and 39 in the Blanchardstown area) and change the 40B to the 35 once and for all (it's been running over the old 35 route for ages).Lack of accountability to the public? They made the exact same promises twenty years ago when they blew public money on the various "branding" of routes, especially CitySwift and City Imp (CitySpeed to a lesser degree, today's "Xpresso"; I prefer the former name because the latter name gives me heartburn)..."frequency every five minutes", "no waiting for a bus", "QBCs will change traffic lights in bus' favour", blah blah blah. The vast majority of the public are not muppet-heads and do know what's going on; the people at the top should not mistake sarcasm for apathy.

For about the umpteenth time - the 79/a are merging with the 27b.