Dublin Bus Network Review

thomasj

Enjoy it while you can!

The new 76 will seal it's fate!

AlekSmart

Despite from reviewing this thread they have been saying something totally different for the last six months and that they would bypass a large area to make the service quicker, which they now appear to have backtracked on.

Devnull`s point re the somewhat glaring differences between what was originally publicised as the Deloitte Plan and what eventually appears after "Public Consultation" is a valid one.

If the Finglas situation progresses as currently indicated,then it looks as if DB are following the methodology used for the Lucan Road alterations,which found quite a level of customer support at the outset only to be subsequently "reviewed" following Public Consultation then reissued in final draft as a fudge finding little popularity with anybody.


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055932114

Even the stats for these Network Direct threads prove that there is a high level of public interest and concern about this programme.

However,there is now a somewhat disconcerting sensation of Network Direct as a solid piece of Public Transport planning having been diluted into something entirely different.

There are worrying signs that the term "Lesson Learned" has not filtered back from Phase 1.

Lets hope the schedules when developed do not reflect an 8 minute decrease in journey time via a more direct route, because if so we will have issues with running time, once again as the people in the Network Direct office, once again have proven they are not living in the real world.

The above hypothesis is rather too close to the actuality of the 145 situation,whereby "straightening out" the route was determined to provide similar savings thus allowing for the extension to Heuston...Actuality has proven that the most comprehensive software and specialized programming in the world may still fail to reflect the reality on-the-ground(Bus).

At this stage,it appears that positions have become entrenched and it`s a matter of irresistable force meeting immovable object which is always going to provide a result satisfactory to nobody.

Capt'n Midnight

crayolastereo wrote: »

God the 239 has been absolutely decimated, they've halved the number of times.

decimation is when the cancel 1 in 10 buses

xper

I return to this thread after a self-imposed period of abstinence as it was depressing me too much. Alas, nothing has appeared in the posts since my last visit to suggest the outlook has improved.

The evidence of an almighty slash and burn decimation of the city's public transport just mounts and mounts as DB management presses merrily on with their disastrous, cost cutting, service reduction. It is now clear that the 'Network Direct' project is just that and only that. While a token effort at service improvement through network impletation was included in the initial plans and continues to be spouted in PR guff, it is clear that DB senior management have happily allowed this objective to be quashed under the weight of badly handled, misguided public 'consultation' and unreaslistic implementation plans. No matter, the staff and vehicle cuts are no doubt happening, so there's no problem.

AlekSmart wrote: »

I`m far from certain that senior DB management have caught the mood of their customers to the same extent as their Drivers have.

I have concluded that they just don't care about the grief that passengers and drivers like yourself now have to go through. "This is permanent. The costs are cut, there's no problem. Get used to it." End of.

Of course, people charged with running THE major component of a city's public transport system should not be thinking this way. It should not be all about balancing the books. They are not fit for the job. They need to go. Clearly there are other people, presumably a little lower down in the organistion, the ones responsible for, y'know, little things like getting new timetables on bus stops, who are either incompetent or indifferent and need to be got rid of as well.

It saddens me to conclude this. I had thought that, slowly, DB had made significant improvements in the way it went about its business ove the last couple of decades. Sure there were some old, untackled chesnuts such as the single door operations and fare structure, but there is no doubt that the city bus service as it stood in 2009 was a damn sight better than that of 1999 or 1989. But it now seems that these improvements may have just been an inevitable accidental benefit of the country's prosperity and that, when times got tough, those in charge are shown up as not capable of or not interested in providing the city the best public transport service it can aspire to. I wonder does it even occur to them that that is their role?

One aspect of this whole sorry mess that has surprised me is the lack of public debate and governmental oversight. There has been little or no mention that I have noticed in the mainstream media. We've had plenty of very local political interference, generally to negative effect, but the silence from politicians at 'official' levels has been deafening. Are the country's economic turmoils consuming all political and media time and thus DB management are allowed to plough on with impunity? There is precious little a current government minister could do to gain popularity but wading into DB swinging the bat and gettting them to stop this farce before the city grinds to a halt sure sounds to me like it would go down well with swathes of Dublin voters.

AlekSmart

It saddens me to conclude this. I had thought that, slowly, DB had made significant improvements in the way it went about its business ove the last couple of decades. Sure there were some old, untackled chesnuts such as the single door operations and fare structure, but there is no doubt that the city bus service as it stood in 2009 was a damn sight better than that of 1999 or 1989. But it now seems that these improvements may have just been an inevitable accidental benefit of the country's prosperity and that, when times got tough, those in charge are shown up as not capable of or not interested in providing the city the best public transport service it can aspire to. I wonder does it even occur to them that that is their role?

A very good post !

ardmacha

The above hypothesis is rather too close to the actuality of the 145 situation,whereby "straightening out" the route was determined to provide similar savings thus allowing for the extension to Heuston...Actuality has proven that the most comprehensive software and specialized programming in the world may still fail to reflect the reality on-the-ground(Bus).

Software has a role to play, but even the most sohisticated software is unless if it is fed bad data. There are many examples of Irish organisations using software aproaches that could have done the job, but having no concern over the quality of data these projects failed as a consequence. Garbage in, garbage out. With GPS etc available nowadays there is no excuse for not knowing the exact route a vehicle takes or even how long it takes to cover a particular leg of the journey.

I would also be interested if there is any modelling of the service provided in various areas by public transport, or any intention to monitor this.

AlekSmart

I would also be interested if there is any modelling of the service provided in various areas by public transport, or any intention to monitor this.

I`m afraid Ardmacha my knowledge does`nt extend that far.

However I do recall being told that the DTO and latterly the Quality Bus Network office were active/interested in the area of Modelling.

Down through the years Dublin`s Bus services have recieved thorough scrutiny from a wide range of Public Transport Expert Consultants who had access at various times to all of the relevant statistical data and in many cases then produced their own observational data as well.

From my own perspective,where we fall down is in the lack of appreciation we,as a culture,have for the importance of Public Transport as an INTEGRAL part of a Capital City`s infrastructure.

Dublin Bus,at the end of the day,is still not seen as integral to the City`s other essential functions.
Until such time as we start appreciating what the French call "Commune",then I can`t see any real progress being possible ?

Chuchoter

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

decimation is when the cancel 1 in 10 buses

You know what I mean. Sentences start with a capital letter too if you want to be pedantic about it

Anyway, any word on the 25?

ardmacha

However I do recall being told that the DTO and latterly the Quality Bus Network office were active/interested in the area of Modelling.

From my own perspective,where we fall down is in the lack of appreciation we,as a culture,have for the importance of Public Transport as an INTEGRAL part of a Capital City`s infrastructure.

I think the problem is that public policy in Ireland is largely unprincipled. By that I mean that there is no actual objective or criteria. In this case there is no objective critieria as to what a citizen residing in an urban area can reasonably expect from public transport. You can argue for buses in Mount Merrion or Monkstown Farm, because there is no clear basis for doing this. I don't overestimate modelling as an approach, although it has a role if there is a real intention to provide service and there is a clear intention to model reality and not what you would like to see. I'd have a website with these stats and a GIS interface on it so that the public, drivers, boards.ie commuting forum posters or whoever could really take part in the process.

January

angel01 wrote: »

Seems a longer way than what currently happens

It may seem a longer way but the way I see it, Gardiner Street can be a complete bottle neck at peak times, never mind during the day when it's back up yet easy to get onto Dorset Street. At least if it goes up Parnell Sq and turns onto Dorset Street that way it's heading straight onto a bus lane and up that way. No awkward turns onto an already packed Dorset Street to get across to the bus lane.

AlekSmart

Here Ardmacha,is the nub of it.....

I don't overestimate modelling as an approach, although it has a role if there is a real intention to provide service and there is a clear intention to model reality and not what you would like to see. I'd have a website with these stats and a GIS interface on it so that the public, drivers, boards.ie commuting forum posters or whoever could really take part in the process.

This rather basic ideal of public or stakeholder involvement is somewhat more common in the remainder of developed Europe than in this Republic.

Come to think of it,the absence of this is what defines Irish Public Policy in so many areas,Heath,Education,Public Transport,Foreign Policy etc etc.

What we are left with are day-to-day "ah sure it`ll haveta do" policies,often dreamed up at short notice by whatever small coterie`s of Politically savvy individuals happen to be at the Ministers table that day.

The very idea Ardmacha,that lowly but committed individuals with a bit of interest and a grasp of the "Greater Good" principle would assert their influence,is seen as a threat,and a major threat to our fabric of Public Administration.

It`s far easier to do the PR and stage Public Consultations for the media whilst sniggering at those who contribute as their contributions fuel the bonfires :mad:

med1

re the finglas changes they are running the roadshow on thursday.
they are removing the link from finglas south west to charlestown .
they are ensuring that more buses on the route are wrecked look at the current 78a it gets wrecked by certain people in nielstown .
there removing the 220 slyly by stating originally its not been stopped as was originally the intention with the blanch changes and closing it by the backdoor so how do people get to poppintree finglas south and ladyswell now well according to dublin bus management they can transfer buses so for example i want to go to fas poppintree from ladyswell so now i get the 38 from ladyswell to blanch jump the 17a to finglas village wait for the 104 to poppintree so now you have to catch 3 buses instead of 1 that is really great planning by dublin bus 3 fares instead of 1 because you cant buy a day or a tranfer ticket from the driver like you can of any bus company in the uk or even northern ireland

KC61

med1 wrote: »

re the finglas changes they are running the roadshow on thursday they are removing the link from finglas south west to charlestown they are ensuring that more buses on the route are wrecked look at the current 78a it gets wrecked by certain people in nielstown .there removing the 220 slyly by stating originally its not been stopped as was originally the intention with the blanch changes and closing it by the backdoor so how do people get to poppintree finglas south and ladyswell now well according to dublin bus management they can transfer buses so for example i want to go to fas poppintree from ladyswell so now i get the 38 from ladyswell to blanch jump the 17a to finglas village wait for the 104 to poppintree so now you have to catch 3 buses instead of 1 that is really great planning by dublin bus 3 fares instead of 1 because you cant buy a day or a tranfer ticket from the driver like you can of any bus company in the uk or even northern ireland

While there are issues on the 78a, I don't notice the buses being particularly "wrecked" as you put it- and I do use it every so often.

But how many people want to go to FAS Poppintree from Ladyswell specifically that would justify the 220 being retained?

Transfer 90 tickets are available in every Dublin Bus ticket agents.

markpb

KC61 wrote: »

Transfer 90 tickets are available in every Dublin Bus ticket agents.

If the 104 is involved in one of those replacement connections, not even the ease of use of the T90 tickets will get people to use it

In my own case, my direct bus route is being removed and we were told our orbital bus would be made more frequent so we could connect to QBC bus route. Instead, the orbital route is no more frequent (every 10-15 mins peak, every 30 off-peak) and is less direct so it will be a lot slower. As far as I'm concerned, any attempt by DB to continue to call this an improvement is a lie - it's a cost cutting measure dressed up.

med1

kc91 ring conyngham road and ask them about route 78a damages or have you travelled upstairs towards the back on a 78a i ytravel that route once a week and darent go upstairs due to it been unsafe

med1

regarding the transfer 90 it only works if you can get your buses within 90 minutes .
Also you cant buy a single transfer 90 only a 10 journey one so you have to fork out 18.50 in one go not practicle if you are lets say a once a month user.
My real gripe is why cant you buy a transfer ticket of the driver like any other bus service in northern ireland or the uk even bus eireann drivers will sell day tickets 10 journey tickets etc so why cant dublin bus

med1

hi fixed that my apologies.
You are right re london but with the oyster card there is a set maximum ammount per day that can be deducted so technicly there is a day ticket on the oyster.

KC61

Sorry - I deleted my other post - I think that you'll have to wait for the smart card to come along for that sort of thing tbh but even then I would expect a 90 minute restriction.

But are there that many people making that specific journey that requires the 220?

angel01

I have contacted DB about my opinions, I wonder if they will actually return my call this time :rolleyes::(

January

KC61 wrote: »

While there are issues on the 78a, I don't notice the buses being particularly "wrecked" as you put it- and I do use it every so often.

But how many people want to go to FAS Poppintree from Ladyswell specifically that would justify the 220 being retained?

Transfer 90 tickets are available in every Dublin Bus ticket agents.

We've had this out over on the D15 thread already. The 220 provides a necessary link for school students in the Ladyswell, Hartstown/Huntstown area to Finglas. Have a look at either the 7.30am or 8.00am 220 heading toward Finglas on a school day and just see how packed it can get with school kids. Likewise with the evening 220 passing Cappagh Road towards Ladyswell at around 4/4.30pm. They've decided to push that one back to 5.07pm! That's a full hour wait after school to get the bus!

The 17a won't serve the village, which will mean if kids want to get to school they'll have to get the 238 to the centre or the 38 or 39 (if coming from Hartstown/Hunstown) to the village and walk into the hospital grounds to connect to it. Not something you'd like your school child doing if it's dark out to be fair.

KC61, I know you're working for DB (or am I mistaken? correct me if I am wrong), and I know you're doing your best to alleviate our worries about the bus cuts and changes, but to be fair DB are being VERY sneaky telling us that they are retaining a bus service and then even before the changes come into effect starting to cut it again!

KC61

Adrienne - I have no connection with Dublin Bus - just a long interest in the public transport industry.

The point I made in the other thread was that they did say that the 220 would be revisited, and now they are for better or worse (and I am not necessarily agreeing with their plans). People probably need to kick up a bit of a fuss to get the right timetable.

I take your point re the schoolkids, but can someone confirm/deny the (apparently) large numbers using it to get from Ladyswell to FAS Poppintree?

Perhaps it needs a dedicated school bus?

January

KC61 wrote: »

Adrienne - I have no connection with Dublin Bus - just a long interest in the public transport industry.

The point I made in the other thread was that they did say that the 220 would be revisited, and now they are for better or worse (and I am not necessarily agreeing with their plans). People probably need to kick up a bit of a fuss to get the right timetable.

I take your point re the schoolkids, but can someone confirm/deny the (apparently) large numbers using it to get from Ladyswell to FAS Poppintree?

Perhaps it needs a dedicated school bus?

I don't know about from Ladyswell to Poppintree.

I know that when I was a pupil of Mater Christi they did organise a school bus for us with Dublin Bus and it was atrocious. It didn't collect us in the morning only in the evening and it hardly ever showed up, and never on a Wednesday when we were on a half day.

med1

hi kc i only used fas as an example i know from speaking to fas in poppintree that a lot of their staff as well as students dop use the bus as it is one of the main training facilities for dublin north west.a lot of schoolkids do use the service as well as a lot of elderly people going to appointments in jcm hospital remember the hospitals catchment area includes finglas west south so the 17a does not serve any of those areas

KC61

To be honest I suspect that we will have a better idea of travel patterns when the extended 17a gets up and running next week - given it is far more frequent than the 220 ever was.

You could both well be right and the 220 in a limited form may need to be kept, but it will be interesting to see what happens once the 17a is up and running.

Polar101

I'm wondering if the Finglas map is actually an old version, since it says the 17a will run every 10 minutes and "replace" the 220. That's what supposed to happen first, but they changed that so that the 17a will run every 15 minutes and the 220 will remain.

KC61

med1 wrote: »

hi kc i only used fas as an example i know from speaking to fas in poppintree that a lot of their staff as well as students dop use the bus as it is one of the main training facilities for dublin north west.a lot of schoolkids do use the service as well as a lot of elderly people going to appointments in jcm hospital remember the hospitals catchment area includes finglas west south so the 17a does not serve any of those areas

Don't forget med1 that the 40 and 140 will now offer a more frequent service in south Finglas than before and the 17a will be more frequent than the 220. Will people want to wait for a very infrequent bus rather than taking two more frequent services? I think you underestimate people a bit!

I'm not doubting that people use the 220 but I do wonder about its long term usefulness when there is a far more frequent alternative for most of the route. The schoolchildren are an issue and I don't think it acceptable that they might have to change.

However, time will tell. If people are not using the 220 in decent numbers after next week I can't see it staying long term. But if they are then maybe it will!

angel01

KC61 wrote: »

Adrienne - I have no connection with Dublin Bus - just a long interest in the public transport industry.

The point I made in the other thread was that they did say that the 220 would be revisited, and now they are for better or worse (and I am not necessarily agreeing with their plans). People probably need to kick up a bit of a fuss to get the right timetable.

I take your point re the schoolkids, but can someone confirm/deny the (apparently) large numbers using it to get from Ladyswell to FAS Poppintree?

Perhaps it needs a dedicated school bus?

If you have no connection with Dublin Bus/CIE, why do you never seem to say anything negative with them. To be honest, I have never seen you posting anywhere else on boards (except on DB/CIE topics)

KC61

angel01 wrote: »

If you have no connection with Dublin Bus/CIE, why do you never seem to say anything negative with them. To be honest, I have never seen you posting anywhere else on boards (except on DB/CIE topics)

I try to be as objective as possible here but just because I am less reactionary than some people here does not mean that I agree with everything that the CIE group do. I have criticised the companies at various different times when frankly they have mucked up. But it is very easy to jump up and down and make instant reactions.

I tend to make more considered reactions, and I do make my views known to the relevant bodies (transport companies, councils etc.) off-boards, be it through official consultations or informal contacts. That tends to get more results I find than carping here.

Public transport provision is a subject that is one of my main interests in life - it always has been. I don't work in the industry at all, because frankly the degree of union involvement in the companies would drive me mad, but that does not stop me having a deep interest in it. I post here mainly to explain why things happen to the unitiated and to learn something about travel patterns etc, and to encourage people to make their views known. Sometimes I hear things through friends/contacts unofficially that I post here that people might be interested in.

Is it a crime to post on boards now on a topic that I am genuinely passionate about?

With due respect I'd prefer if you do not question my bona fides - I have made it abundantly clear that I have nothing to do with CIE - and I'd prefer to leave it at that.

As for the Network Direct rollout - yes there were serious flaws in phase 1 in terms of capacity, running times and information on-street which made a mockery of what should have been a good news story - but everyone else has covered it already. I don't think that I really could add to what everyone else posted, other than how ridiculous it was to see N11 posters in Dublin Airport with not a single timetable on the stop!

Hopefully lessons will be learnt for the Blanchardstown rollout.

I still think that the broad network review is right for the city but they need to be realistic in terms of resourcing it.

At the end of the day my own philosophy in life is to take an approach of constructive criticism - just moaning and complaining is not something I believe in.

thomasj

Folks FYI this is on tomorrow! (Thursday)

Blanchardstown Roadshow
Wednesday, October 27, 2010
Dublin Bus would like to inform customers that staff will be on hand in Blanchardstown Centre tomorrow from 14.00 – 20.00 to discuss the revised services due to be introduced on Sunday 31st October 2010.

markpb

DB have put up a Network Direct poster at a bus stop on the Swords road (on Shantalla flyover) explaining all about the changes to the N11 routes. The only change affecting this bus route is the cancellation of the 746 and yet DB felt the need to remove *all* the timetables so they could put up this poster.