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Who is at fault here?

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    #182
    stimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Ah, I suspect you're using 'lane markings' to mean all road markings, including arrows, when it normally just means (IMO) the broken or solid lines that separate lanes.

    That RTA section is titled “Traffic lane markings”. They are all lane markings. Regardless of what you call them, they are all you need to know about what lane you need to be in on the roundabout. If people can’t grasp that then it’s no wonder most people struggle with driving.


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    #183
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,428 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    stimpson wrote: »
    That RTA section is titled “Traffic lane markings”. They are all lane markings. Regardless of what you call them, they are all you need to know about what lane you need to be in on the roundabout. If people can’t grasp that then it’s no wonder most people struggle with driving.

    I'll agree to that, pay attention to any markings present!


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    #184
    GhostyMcGhost
    Registered Users Posts: 1,349 ✭✭✭GhostyMcGhost


    TheChizler wrote: »
    I'll agree to that, pay attention to any markings present!

    2 yield signs on approach. 2 lanes markings on the exit, but tbh they need to be repainted, but they’re there. The roundabout itself, markings are there but practically impossible to see them clearly as the paint is so faded

    No arrows to indicate specific lanes


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    #185
    stimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    GhostyMcGhost wrote: »
    2 yield signs on approach. 2 lanes markings on the exit, but tbh they need to be repainted, but they’re there. The roundabout itself, markings are there but practically impossible to see them clearly as the paint is so faded

    No arrows to indicate specific lanes

    Any chance of a google maps link?


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    #186
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    GhostyMcGhost wrote: »
    2 yield signs on approach. 2 lanes markings on the exit, but tbh they need to be repainted, but they’re there. The roundabout itself, markings are there but practically impossible to see them clearly as the paint is so faded

    No arrows to indicate specific lanes

    The yield signs, meaning cars approaching the roundabout should yield to cars already on it ?


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    #187
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,095 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    dudara wrote: »
    This is a roundabout situation. Assuming that the leftmost lane has smooth continuation around the roundabout, then the red car can stay in it, even if it makes zero sense to do so.

    The blue car is moving across the continuation of their lane to exit.

    Daft really. In that situation there should be no roundabout.

    Equally at a junction a car coming from your left can keep coming if they have smooth continuation, but thats irrelevant, the red car is demonstrably in the wrong as they are using the roundabout incorrectly by any definition of "correctly"...your argument is that the blue car should see them and stop.

    so my quesiton still stands, if someone breaks a light at a junction and arrives in front of your car as you are pulling off (on a green) and you hit them, do you think its your fault or theirs?


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    #188
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,095 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    bluewolf wrote: »
    I have to agree with these- the blue car was the one changing lanes, and someone being in the wrong lane doesn't make it ok to barrel into them just because they should not be there. Even though it's awfully tempting !!

    They are not changing lanes though, thats 1 of the valid continuations of their lane (there are others)
    Red on the other hand has no option that allows them into blues lane, they are the one "changing" lanes imo.

    Seriously, if we cant agree on this then nobody should be on the road!


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    #189
    The Backwards Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    GreeBo wrote: »
    They are not changing lanes though, thats 1 of the valid continuations of their lane (there are others)
    Red on the other hand has no option that allows them into blues lane, they are the one "changing" lanes imo.

    Seriously, if we cant agree on this then nobody should be on the road!

    It's impossible to use a roundabout without changing lanes at least twice. Blue car in this example is changing lane four times. The red car isn't where it is because it changed lane, it's where it is because it didn't change lane where it was expected to. i.e exiting the roundabout.


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    #190
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,428 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    The Backwards Man wrote: »
    It's impossible to use a roundabout without changing lanes at least twice.
    I think there's plenty of examples where this isn't true. Can you expand on what you mean?


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    #191
    The Backwards Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    TheChizler wrote: »
    I think there's plenty of examples where this isn't true. Can you expand on what you mean?

    You have to enter (change lane) and exit (change lane) every single one of them.


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    #192
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,428 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    The Backwards Man wrote: »
    You have to enter (change lane) and exit (change lane) every single one of them.
    I wouldn't agree that's true. You certainly cross lane markings coming from the right in most cases but that doesn't mean you're changing lanes. Many roundabouts allow you to enter and be directed to any exit without changing lanes on the roundabout at all.

    Edit: unless you're counting crossing a yield line as changing lanes?


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    #193
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,095 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    TheChizler wrote: »
    I wouldn't agree that's true. You certainly cross lane markings coming from the right in most cases but that doesn't mean you're changing lanes. Many roundabouts allow you to enter and be directed to any exit without changing lanes on the roundabout at all.

    Edit: unless you're counting crossing a yield line as changing lanes?

    Well if crossing lane markings isnt changing lanes, then the blue car doesnt change lanes either so that point doesnt work.

    One car was using the road as designed and as laid out in the (yeah yeah no t law or legally binding) ROTR.
    The other car was red.


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    #194
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    Red car is at fault. No it's or buts. It's in the wrong lane and is responsible for any collision as a result of that. Blue driver has no obligation to look left.


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    #195
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,428 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Well if crossing lane markings isnt changing lanes, then the blue car doesnt change lanes either so that point doesnt work.
    Hold on now, exactly what lane marking, and I presume you mean the lines separating lanes, is being crossed? In the OP's case I agree the red is crossing the implied lanes to continue round but The Backwards Man said every single roundabout.


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    #196
    CeilingFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭CeilingFly


    The Backwards Man wrote: »
    It's impossible to use a roundabout without changing lanes at least twice. Blue car in this example is changing lane four times. The red car isn't where it is because it changed lane, it's where it is because it didn't change lane where it was expected to. i.e exiting the roundabout.

    But do roundabouts have "lanes" or just lane markings - there's a discernible difference.

    If they had "lanes" then that would suggest you would need to indicate every time you changed "lanes" - so in the OP the blue car would indicate that they are going into the inner lane, then indicate they are moving to the outer "lane" and then also indicate that they are exiting the roundabout - that would be crazy.


    So a roundabout has lane markings but does not have lanes.


    And its quite scary that 30%-40% of posters here seem not to understand roundabouts and if they actually thought the process through and understood what roundabouts were designed for and the flow of traffic at each roundabout, they may have a better understanding

    Basically a roundabout is a junction that has a central round island instead fo traffic lights

    Ask yourself this question - would you turn right from a left lane on a standard two lane carriageway onto a secondary road?


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    #197
    The Backwards Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    CeilingFly wrote: »
    But do roundabouts have "lanes" or just lane markings - there's a discernible difference.

    If they had "lanes" then that would suggest you would need to indicate every time you changed "lanes" - so in the OP the blue car would indicate that they are going into the inner lane, then indicate they are moving to the outer "lane" and then also indicate that they are exiting the roundabout - that would be crazy.


    So a roundabout has lane markings but does not have lanes.


    And its quite scary that 30%-40% of posters here seem not to understand roundabouts and if they actually thought the process through and understood what roundabouts were designed for and the flow of traffic at each roundabout, they may have a better understanding

    Basically a roundabout is a junction that has a central round island instead fo traffic lights

    Ask yourself this question - would you turn right from a left lane on a standard two lane carriageway onto a secondary road?

    A roundabout is a junction you have to enter and exit no matter what direction of travel you are taking.

    Take a crossroad junction for example; if you are turning left you change lane once, right you change lane twice, straight ahead you change lane three times. A roundabout is device to improve the flow of traffic at a junction, but you still have to change lanes to use it.


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    #198
    CeilingFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭CeilingFly


    The Backwards Man wrote: »
    A roundabout is a junction you have to enter and exit no matter what direction of travel you are taking.

    Take a crossroad junction for example; if you are turning left you change lane once, right you change lane twice, straight ahead you change lane three times. A roundabout is device to improve the flow of traffic at a junction, but you still have to change lanes to use it.

    you're making the error of calling everything a lane rather than a lane marking.

    Atv a cross roads and turning left you are leaving one road and commencing on another road - you are not changing lanes, you are exiting a road.

    Going straight ahead at a standard crossroad junction you are not changing lanes. You may be crossing lane markings but you are on the exact same lane of the road you are travelling on.


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    #199
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,428 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    CeilingFly wrote: »
    But do roundabouts have "lanes" or just lane markings - there's a discernible difference.
    If the M50 has 3 lanes then a roundabout has lanes. Are you saying that because it's all going the same direction it might legally count as a single lane?

    AFAIK the legal definition of lane says it can only be defined by a continuous white line so there might be merit to that, but I don't think anyone here wants to go into that level of detail...


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    #200
    The Backwards Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    CeilingFly wrote: »
    you're making the error of calling everything a lane rather than a lane marking.

    Atv a cross roads and turning left you are leaving one road and commencing on another road - you are not changing lanes, you are exiting a road.

    Going straight ahead at a standard crossroad junction you are not changing lanes. You may be crossing lane markings but you are on the exact same lane of the road you are travelling on.

    Leaving one road and commencing on another is a change of lane. Crossing the direction oncoming traffic travels from when turning right at a T-junction is a change of two lanes, whether there are road markings or not. Going straight ahead at a crossroads of single lane roads is still a change of three lanes even if there is only one lane on both roads.

    This is basic stuff.


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    #201
    The Backwards Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    TheChizler wrote: »
    If the M50 has 3 lanes then a roundabout has lanes. Are you saying that because it's all going the same direction it might legally count as a single lane?

    AFAIK the legal definition of lane says it can only be defined by a continuous white line so there might be merit to that, but I don't think anyone here wants to go into that level of detail...

    Maybe I should be saying direction of travel instead of lane if people can't get this, but you do everything for a change of direction of travel as you do for a change of lane so I don't see why it's that difficult to grasp.


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    #202
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,102 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    This thread is crazy, and really confirm that people have no clue how to use roundabouts. It's not about the o'clock position, the lane you are in, who gets where first etc. It's simply being in the right lane, and yielding if you need to cross a lane.

    The ignorance of the people is largely due to laziness of councils and other with crap road markings.
    68 lost souls wrote: »
    The blue car has to cross the red car to exit the roundabout so they are responsible to check the lane is clear...
    The Backwards Man wrote: »
    The question was who would be at fault in the event of a collision. That's the car that left their lane just because they were in the 'right'.
    bluewolf wrote: »
    I have to agree with these- the blue car was the one changing lanes, and someone being in the wrong lane doesn't make it ok to barrel into them just because they should not be there. Even though it's awfully tempting !!

    The OPs sketch is too basic to know who did what. You shouldn't being crossing a lane when exiting.
    If you draw on lane markings are direction arrows on the approach. It's very clear who is at fault.

    ZlLA7c0.png

    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    how is any traffic on the inner lane of a roundabout supposed to leave a roundabout if outer lanes don't yield to it ?
    The outer lanes don't yield as you cross them, the outer lanes leave the roundabout and the inner lane is the outer lane for the nest junction.
    grogi wrote: »
    Stop and wait until it has free way. Basic stuff really.
    You should never need to do that at a properly marked roundabout.


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    #203
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    Sadb wrote: »
    Even if there are no road markings on this particular roundabout, the absence of road marking do not make it acceptable to drive whatever way you wish. If you are driving on a country road with no centre line (of which many don’t) is it then acceptable to drive on the right hand side?

    This is the point - in the OP's example, lanes may not be painted on their roundabout, but they are implied wher the roundabout is clearly two lanes wide and and the roads leading in and exiting are two lanes wide.
    Trasna1 wrote: »
    When it comes to the Rules of the Road, questioning them and doing your own thing really aren't good things. Everyone needs to work of the same rulebook, for it to work safely.

    The Rules of the Road are a guide, they set out basic principles but of course they can't cover all situations and drivers must use their own experience of what other drivers do to travel safely. If the speed limit is 100 kph, that don't mean everyone must drive at/ near 100 kph etc etc.
    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Red car is at fault. No it's or buts. It's in the wrong lane and is responsible for any collision as a result of that. Blue driver has no obligation to look left.

    Well, all we can hope for is that we don't meet you on a roundabout! The driver of the blue car clearly has an obligation to signal & watch what is happening on the left lane inside them, as they cross it and exit the roundabout.

    Of course reality is quite different. Travel any dual carriageway / motorway in Ireland and you'll see plenty of drivers going from one lane to the other and they couldn't be arsed to signal. Likewise on roundabouts, you'll see them sail around and expect everyone else to know that they are taking a particular turn.


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    #204
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,293 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    Well, all we can hope for is that we don't meet you on a roundabout! The driver of the blue car clearly has an obligation to signal & watch what is happening on the left lane inside them, as they cross it and exit the roundabout.

    you've used this trope a number of times. Not one person has claimed that the blue car shouldn't be aware of what's to his left..

    he of course needs to be when there are drivers who think its perfectly acceptable to travel around a roundabout in the outside line.

    that still doesn't reduce red car's responsibility for incorrect use of a roundabout.

    you are one that most people should be fearful of meeting on a roundabout.


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    #205
    1983ish
    Registered Users Posts: 48 ✭1983ish


    BarryD2 wrote: »



    Well, all we can hope for is that we don't meet you on a roundabout! The driver of the blue car clearly has an obligation to signal & watch what is happening on the left lane inside them, as they cross it and exit the roundabout.

    .

    No he doesn’t the red car should have exited straight ahead in lane 1
    This is going around in roundabouts
    There is no hope for some people


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    #206
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    Mellor wrote: »
    ZlLA7c0.png

    You should never need to do that at a properly marked roundabout.

    I see you pasted a diagram of a spiral rb :)

    I simply don't understand why there is so much resistance against them in Ireland...


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    #207
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Red car is at fault. No it's or buts. It's in the wrong lane and is responsible for any collision as a result of that. Blue driver has no obligation to look left.

    Oh dear :pac:


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    #208
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,293 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    lawred2 wrote: »
    you've used this trope a number of times. Not one person has claimed that the blue car shouldn't be aware of what's to his left..

    he of course needs to be when there are drivers who think its perfectly acceptable to travel around a roundabout in the outside line.

    that still doesn't reduce red car's responsibility for incorrect use of a roundabout.

    you are the one that most people should be fearful of meeting on a roundabout.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Oh dear :pac:

    lol

    ok one person said that the car in blue shouldn't be aware of what's to his left..

    imagine Barry and Henry on the same roundabout


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    #209
    the_pen_turner
    Registered Users Posts: 7,506 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    red car 100% wrong.

    blue can might be able to avoid if there was time but there wouldnt be. if both cars go straight then the gap between them should be 3-4 feet all the time.
    the first time the blue driver can see that the red car isnt driving correctly is when the gap starts closing rapidly. there just isnt enough time to react


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    #210
    martingriff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,710 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    Red at fault however with insurance blue could be at fault as he crashed into car. They did not show due car. Was indicator on (yea it's a thing) plus if going into a lane should check for traffic in oùtside lane and if so yield as you would have no crash. 2 pieces of advice I was given 1 drive like the person in front does not know the rules of the road and 2 drive ad if no one knows the rules if the road


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    #211
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,095 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Hold on now, exactly what lane marking, and I presume you mean the lines separating lanes, is being crossed? In the OP's case I agree the red is crossing the implied lanes to continue round but The Backwards Man said every single roundabout.

    Well on every roundabout you are at the very least merging into a lane (the lane on the roundabout)
    On any 2 lane roundabout to get into RHS then you are crossing the first lane.

    But I think this argument is irrelevant tbh, roundabouts are designed to be used a certain way, red car went against this so they are at fault.

    Others are blaming the blue car if they hit the red car, but there are countless situations where car A hits car B but it was 100% the fault of car B.


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