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Who is at fault here?

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    #242
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    goat2 wrote:
    They are both wrong, both entered on wrong lane for the direction they were taking, Red should have been on inside lane, and blue on outside, both did not know how to use a round about, and a very simple roundabout at that


    Blue is entitled use either lane.


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    #243
    phill106
    Registered Users Posts: 6,810 ✭✭✭phill106


    68 lost souls wrote: »
    The blue car has to cross the red car to exit the roundabout so they are responsible to check the lane is clear but you could also argue that left lane is for left or straight only

    Blue car isnt changing lanes...It is not crossing the red car, it is continuing in the lane it was in.
    Red is wrong.


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    #244
    martingriff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,742 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Depending on what speed they are doing though, if Red car is moving significantly faster than blue car then blue car can check, indicate, take the exit and then bang, red car has cut them off.

    You cant expect blue car to keep checking their left as the exit a roundabout correctly, that would be far more dangerous and arguably why we have rules on how to use a roundabout, so people dont need a 360* view of their car.

    I see what you did there you missed the step between indicate and take exit. Want to guess what it is. A quick eye dart to mirrors is all it takes


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    #245
    martingriff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,742 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    phill106 wrote: »
    Blue car isnt changing lanes...It is not crossing the red car, it is continuing in the lane it was in.
    Red is wrong.

    Of course blue is changing lane. He is going from inner to outer. If they are not lanes what are they:confused:


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    #246
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,439 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    martingriff wrote: »
    Of course blue is changing lane. He is going from inner to outer. If they are not lanes what are they:confused:
    Check Mellor's post for a possible layout. Both inner and outer lanes exit at the same time.


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    #247
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,157 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    grogi wrote: »
    I see you pasted a diagram of a spiral rb :)

    I simply don't understand why there is so much resistance against them in Ireland...

    I have no idea why roundabouts aren't marked like that.. Or marked at all.
    But it's very clear (from this thread) that not doing so has created a lot of drivers who are clueless about roundabouts.

    Concentric circles are workable for large roundabouts where there is time and space between exits. But on mid sized round about having paths that cross is very dangerous.


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    #248
    clfy39tzve8njq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 597 ✭✭✭clfy39tzve8njq


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Blue is entitled use either lane.


    Exactly. Red should have entered in the right hand lane. There's a couple of lads posting here hope I never meet them on a roundabout :-)


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    #249
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,439 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Mellor wrote: »
    Concentric circles are workable for large roundabouts where there is time and space between exits. But on mid sized round about having paths that cross is very dangerous.
    I think they can work well on smaller ones, they're everywhere in Spain, but people are used to them, and at the risk of getting into "the Irish are terrible drivers" rhetoric, mostly careful and considerate when using them.

    No reason why councils can't plan for the lowest common denominator and just paint clear spirals though. I'm seeing more and more of them in recent years, maybe they're catching on.


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    #250
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    Aliana Colossal Smorgasbord wrote: »
    Exactly. Red should have entered in the right hand lane. There's a couple of lads posting here hope I never meet them on a roundabout :-)

    Tell me which Traffic Law says the red to enter from the right hand lane?

    And even if they entered from the right lane, they might have switched to the left lane in-between. There is no law prohibiting it.


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    #251
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,157 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Blaine Grumpy Warship wrote: »
    Oh Lord.

    The directional arrows are important only at the moment of entering the RB. If you intend to continue in particular direction, you are suppose to enter from particular lane. They don't say anything about how you should behave at the roundabout though, you are free to change lanes (provided you yield to the traffic in the lane you want to change to and if this not prohibited by solid lane dividers of course) and do other things that are allowed by Traffic Laws. "
    The arrows also show you the only routes you are allowed to take from that lane if you don't change lane. That's why they are important, they dictate right if way at exits. If the left lane has a forward arrow and the right lane has forward and right arrows. That's mean red was changing and should should have yielded.


    In fact if you remove the arrows from the equation both cars are wrong. The blue should have entered in left lane and the red in the right lane as he was turning right
    That's incorrect.
    There are two entry lanes. And three possible paths (2 lanes straight ahead, and continuing atound). That means that 1 lane can go in two paths. So only one can be wrong. And because there are two lanes at the exits. That implies, even with no arrows, that both lanes can go straight ahead, which means only the right lane can turn.

    In short, two lanes on the straight ahead exit mean red car was in the wrong.


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    #252
    Sadb
    Registered Users Posts: 10,660 ✭✭✭✭Sadb


    grogi wrote: »
    Tell me which Traffic Law says the red to enter from the right hand lane?

    And even if they entered from the right lane, they might have switched to the left lane in-between. There is no law prohibiting it.

    You avoided my question earlier, if you flout the rules of the road can you pass your driving test? If you drove like the red car while doing your driving test would it be seen as a fault?


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    #253
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,298 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    grogi wrote: »
    Tell me which Traffic Law says the red to enter from the right hand lane?

    And even if they entered from the right lane, they might have switched to the left lane in-between. There is no law prohibiting it.

    well if it's not written on paper for you you're free to do whatever like... reverse on to the roundabout if you like... no rules against it


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    #254
    by8auj6csd3ioq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭by8auj6csd3ioq


    Mellor wrote: »
    Blaine Grumpy Warship wrote: »
    Oh Lord.

    The directional arrows are important only at the moment of entering the RB. If you intend to continue in particular direction, you are suppose to enter from particular lane. They don't say anything about how you should behave at the roundabout though, you are free to change lanes (provided you yield to the traffic in the lane you want to change to and if this not prohibited by solid lane dividers of course) and do other things that are allowed by Traffic Laws. "
    The arrows also show you the only routes you are allowed to take from that lane if you don't change lane. That's why they are important, they dictate right if way at exits.  If the left lane has a forward arrow and the right lane has forward and right arrows. That's mean red was changing and should should have yielded.


    In fact if you remove the arrows from the equation both cars are wrong. The blue should have entered in left lane and the red in the right lane as he was turning right
    That's incorrect.
    There are two entry lanes. And three possible paths (2 lanes straight ahead, and continuing atound). That means that 1 lane can go in two paths. So only one can be wrong. And because there are two lanes at the exits. That implies, even with no arrows, that both lanes can go straight ahead, which means only the right lane can turn.

    In short, two lanes on the straight ahead exit mean red car was in the wrong.
    that is wrong but i am not going round in circles with this  http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/roundabouts.html


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    #255
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    Sadb wrote: »
    You avoided my question earlier, if you flout the rules of the road can you pass your driving test? If you drove like the red car while doing your driving test would it be seen as a fault?

    I would have challenged it in court if it was the case.


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    #256
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,157 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    TheChizler wrote: »
    No reason why councils can't plan for the lowest common denominator and just paint clear spirals though. I'm seeing more and more of them in recent years, maybe they're catching on.

    Don't even need to paint spirals. Arrows on entry lanes serve the same purpose as spiral roundabouts. In fact, they offer even greater control on multi-exits roundabouts.

    grogi wrote: »
    Tell me which Traffic Law says the red to enter from the right hand lane?

    And even if they entered from the right lane, they might have switched to the left lane in-between. There is no law prohibiting it.

    The laws that says you have to follow road markings. Even if not marked as a spiral. A directional arrow should be at the entry. If red is turning right, he should be in the lane with the right arrow (the right lane). He is free to change to the left lane at any point, but then he is bound by the arrow in that lane.

    I explained above why the arrows should only be in that configuration.
    And unless the OP shows us the exact roundabout, there's little point suggesting the arrows might have been conflicting.


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    #257
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,157 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Blaine Grumpy Warship wrote: »
    that is wrong but i am not going round in circles with this
    I've explained why you are wrong is clear terms, and backed it up with simple logic. You are free to disagree, but "I'm not saying why" is no different to "I can't say why".


    Just seen your link. You realise that agreeds with me right. See the part about paying attention to directional arrows.


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    #258
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,121 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    martingriff wrote: »
    I see what you did there you missed the step between indicate and take exit. Want to guess what it is. A quick eye dart to mirrors is all it takes

    I've already given examples of how that wont help you, but you keep flogging that horse, plenty of life left in him!


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    #259
    Fieldsman
    Registered Users Posts: 147 ✭✭Fieldsman


    In reply to Goat 2 if going straight trough you can be on the right hand lane if circumstances dictate ( left lane congested) I'd say sheep would be as good as some drivers on roundabouts.


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    #260
    CeilingFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭CeilingFly


    grogi wrote: »
    Tell me which Traffic Law says the red to enter from the right hand lane?

    And even if they entered from the right lane, they might have switched to the left lane in-between. There is no law prohibiting it.

    true there is no "law" prohibiting it, but with the blue car having right of way to continue in lane two, the red car is incorrect to cut across the blue car.

    Its common sense too - unfortunately common sense rarely comes into it with some drivers on roundabouts.

    But in the OP case, if it was an insurance claim, red is wrong all day long.


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    #261
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Blue is entitled use either lane.

    The E word - that is what is concerning about those who insist that the blue car is 'entitled to' or 'under no obligation' etc.

    A roundabout is a place where traffic is designed to keep moving whilst negotiating junctions. Drivers must be aware of what those around them are doing and signal/ observe appropriately.

    In this OP instance, it would be better if the red car was in the RH lane and signalling to go around. Likewise it'd be better if the blue car was in the normal driving left lane if they intend to go straight on. Both are somewhat wrong in an ideal world but neither is doing something that is a complete no-no.


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    #262
    CeilingFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭CeilingFly


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    The E word - that is what is concerning about those who insist that the blue car is 'entitled to' or 'under no obligation' etc.

    A roundabout is a place where traffic is designed to keep moving whilst negotiating junctions. Drivers must be aware of what those around them are doing and signal/ observe appropriately.

    In this OP instance, it would be better if the red car was in the RH lane and signalling to go around. Likewise it'd be better if the blue car was in the normal driving left lane if they intend to go straight on. Both are somewhat wrong in an ideal world but neither is doing something that is a complete no-no.

    Nope -

    Two lanes on approach and two lanes on the exit means that cars in lane one and lane two carry on to continue using the same lanes on the exit.

    So if blue was in lane one on entering the roundabout, they were "entitled" to either take first exit or proceed straight ahead

    If entering from lane two, they were "entitled" to proceed straight ahead exiting onto lane two of the second exit or continue to exit 3.


    Or lets look at the revers - would the blue car be entitled to enter from lane 2 and cut across the red car to take the first exit??


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    #263
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    The E word - that is what is concerning about those who insist that the blue car is 'entitled to' or 'under no obligation' etc.

    A roundabout is a place where traffic is designed to keep moving whilst negotiating junctions. Drivers must be aware of what those around them are doing and signal/ observe appropriately.

    In this OP instance, it would be better if the red car was in the RH lane and signalling to go around. Likewise it'd be better if the blue car was in the normal driving left lane if they intend to go straight on. Both are somewhat wrong in an ideal world but neither is doing something that is a complete no-no.

    Absolutely not.

    Blue is fine and red wasn't. No grey area there at all.


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    #264
    martingriff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,742 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    GreeBo wrote: »
    I've already given examples of how that wont help you, but you keep flogging that horse, plenty of life left in him!

    Seemed to have missed it can you write again please and no different speed is not an example or is your so far back you seem in the right


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    #265
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,121 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    martingriff wrote: »
    Seemed to have missed it can you write again please and no different speed is not an example or is your so far back you seem in the right

    So you cant understand how speed can impact one car not seeing another car when they look in their mirrors?

    Its no wonder the M50 is full of crashes all day long, please stay off the road or at least out of my way thanks.


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    #266
    clfy39tzve8njq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 597 ✭✭✭clfy39tzve8njq


    grogi wrote:
    Tell me which Traffic Law says the red to enter from the right hand lane?

    grogi wrote:
    And even if they entered from the right lane, they might have switched to the left lane in-between. There is no law prohibiting it.


    Sweet Jesus


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    #267
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    Aliana Colossal Smorgasbord wrote: »
    Sweet Jesus

    No argument left bar calling for the Gods?


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    #268
    clfy39tzve8njq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 597 ✭✭✭clfy39tzve8njq


    grogi wrote:
    No argument left bar calling for the Gods?


    No point arguing with stupidity


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    #269
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    Aliana Colossal Smorgasbord wrote: »
    No point arguing with stupidity

    And personal trips again...

    Not my fault that you would prefer to obey the pub-heart rules than law of the road.


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    #270
    Sadb
    Registered Users Posts: 10,660 ✭✭✭✭Sadb


    grogi wrote: »
    I would have challenged it in court if it was the case.

    And you would lose. There is no court in the land that would agree that you should pass your driving test when not adhering to the rules of the road.


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    #271
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    This is frankly astonishing. Anyone who believes going around a roundabout in lane 1 and then exiting at the 3pm exit is in anyway acceptable would want to have a long hard think about their judgement and suitability to drive a vehicle safely.


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