Who is at fault here?

dudara · 21-08-2018 6:30pm

Red car made a mistake. Blue car is at fault IMO for not failing to see trafific on their left and driving into them as a result. Sucks donkey balls for blue, but doesn’t absolve them IMO.

You’d always check your mirrors when exiting a roundabout in such a situation.

GreeBo · 21-08-2018 6:33pm

BarryD2 wrote: »

That's the issue - the blue car should not be in a position whereby they drive into the car on the lane inside them. They should be signalling to exit the roundabout and checking what the car on the left is doing.

If the blue car having done this exits left to leave and whilst doing so, the red car crashes into them, they have a reasonable case.

But if the blue car hits the red car, then clearly they haven't been taking due care.

So the blue car is driving at 30kph and the red car is driving at 60kph, cuts off the blue car resulting in the blue car t-boning the red car...but you still think its the blue cars fault?

GreeBo · 21-08-2018 6:36pm

sKeith wrote: »

If there was a collision,

I'd blame blue car in 1. and red car in 2.

The red car is *always* to blame.

dudara wrote: »

Red car made a mistake. Blue car is at fault IMO for not failing to see trafific on their left and driving into them as a result. Sucks donkey balls for blue, but doesn’t absolve them IMO.

So if on a regular crossroads, a car to your left breaks the lights at speed and arrives in front of your car as you are crossing the junction, you'd blame yourself because you hit them and ignore the fact that they were somewhere they shouldnt have been?

jaxxx · 21-08-2018 6:40pm

I'm quickly losing my faith in humanity by reading this thread....... I'mma take my leave while there's still some little trace of it left!

V8 Interceptor · 21-08-2018 6:41pm

sKeith wrote: »

If there was a collision,

I'd blame blue car in 1. and red car in 2.

Absolutely not. Red is at fault in both.

dudara · 21-08-2018 6:47pm

GreeBo wrote: »

So if on a regular crossroads, a car to your left breaks the lights at speed and arrives in front of your car as you are crossing the junction, you'd blame yourself because you hit them and ignore the fact that they were somewhere they shouldnt have been?

This is a roundabout situation. Assuming that the leftmost lane has smooth continuation around the roundabout, then the red car can stay in it, even if it makes zero sense to do so.

The blue car is moving across the continuation of their lane to exit.

Daft really. In that situation there should be no roundabout.

The Rape of Lucretia · 21-08-2018 6:51pm

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

Absolutely not. Red is at fault in both.

How can red possibly be at fault in either ?
1) You have no obligation to take any roundabout exit just because you are approaching it.
2) No car has the right to move across your lane unless you voluntarily choose to yield it to them

In both crash scenarios, Blue is completely at fault.

V8 Interceptor · 21-08-2018 6:55pm

In scenario 1 red cuts across right in front of blue who's going straight ahead and in 2 he smacks into his rear side.

If blue didn't have time to take evasive action its reds fault for careering into him wrongly trying to cut across a roundabout.

coffee_cake · 21-08-2018 7:02pm

The Backwards Man wrote: »

People need to realise that being an asshole and being in the wrong are not the same thing. Red car is an idiot, blue car left their lane and hit them.

More evidence that the majority of drivers shouldn't be on the road.

dudara wrote: »

Red car made a mistake. Blue car is at fault IMO for not failing to see trafific on their left and driving into them as a result. Sucks donkey balls for blue, but doesn’t absolve them IMO.

You’d always check your mirrors when exiting a roundabout in such a situation.

I have to agree with these- the blue car was the one changing lanes, and someone being in the wrong lane doesn't make it ok to barrel into them just because they should not be there. Even though it's awfully tempting !!

BarryD2 · 21-08-2018 7:31pm

Trasna1 wrote: »

Traffic on the right has right of way.

Says who? That logic smacks of the routine abuse you see of lane discipline on Irish roads.

'Keep Left, Pass Right' is a basic maxim and how often do we see drivers hogging the right lane, cruising along and expecting everyone else to let them sail through.

You're applying that to a roundabout and assuming that the driver in the right lane can just sail through the roundabout.

A roundabout is essentially a piece of road with multiple junctions and minimum of two, sometimes with lanes. You enter at one junction and you exit at another. You treat these junctions like junctions: by signalling, observing, yielding. You treat the lanes as lanes.

If the blue car strikes the red car in this situation, then the driver of the blue car has not taken due care.

Years ago I was clipped on the back of my car like this on the Walkinstown roundabout. I think I was taking a second exit and was in the left lane, when someone came from behind me on the right as they assumed I was taking the first exit and cut across. They were in the wrong and paid up.

lawred2 · 21-08-2018 7:43pm

BarryD2 wrote: »

Says who? That logic smacks of the routine abuse you see of lane discipline on Irish roads.

'Keep Left, Pass Right' is a basic maxim and how often do we see drivers hogging the right lane, cruising along and expecting everyone else to let them sail through.

You're applying that to a roundabout and assuming that the driver in the right lane can just sail through the roundabout.

A roundabout is essentially a piece of road with multiple junctions and minimum of two, sometimes with lanes. You enter at one junction and you exit at another. You treat these junctions like junctions: by signalling, observing, yielding. You treat the lanes as lanes.

If the blue car strikes the red car in this situation, then the driver of the blue car has not taken due care.

Years ago I was clipped on the back of my car like this on the Walkinstown roundabout. I think I was taking a second exit and was in the left lane, when someone came from behind me on the right as they assumed I was taking the first exit and cut across. They were in the wrong and paid up.

That anecdote bares no resemblance to the situation posed by the OP.

GhostyMcGhost · 21-08-2018 7:45pm

So many replies and so many different points of view

I’ll try answer specifics if I can. Trying to find a very similar roundabout so you can see exactly the markings. Cant really share actual locations since there may or may not be a liability/fault issue between blue and red drivers

Thanks to everyone taking the time to reply (agreeing with red or blue!) Really helping me see the different perspectives and helping me understand a few things

In this hypothetical incident there were no injuries which is the main thing

21-08-2018 8:57pm

jaxxx wrote: »

You really need to be told? Alright then. Basically what Mr.Ford was saying was you couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Specifically, the part where you said "but both are wrong". 0% of the blame can be placed on blue, except perhaps maybe no reacting the correct way or wasn't paying attention to what red was doing, etc. For the purposes of this general discussion, everyone is just focusing on lane usage and lane usage alone. In which case, as I have previously mentioned, in no way is blue at fault for anything as this is a dual lane entry and exit roundabout, where the general golden rule is stretched slightly whereby allowing a 12 o'clock exit while in the right hand lane, something which would normally obviously be wrong.

So you reckon if the cars come into each other there is no fault for the blue one? Really?

Blue is certainly in the good lane, but that does not absolve duty to care and observe.

21-08-2018 9:00pm

What does not surprise me, is posters who think because they are "right" they can barrel through people who are not.

21-08-2018 9:03pm

dudara wrote: »

Red car made a mistake. Blue car is at fault IMO for not failing to see trafific on their left and driving into them as a result. Sucks donkey balls for blue, but doesn’t absolve them IMO.

You’d always check your mirrors when exiting a roundabout in such a situation.

Thank you. I wish I said it like this.

1983ish · 21-08-2018 9:07pm

Best example I can think of is the M50 Tallaght exit heading away from the city towards Blessington. The first roundabout you come to is a good example. They have changed the road markings here in the last year because of this exact situation.
If you approach this roundabout and are turning right or doing a 180 back toward the M50 is there honestly anyone out there that thinks it’s ok to do this from the leftmost lane?

Yester · 21-08-2018 9:19pm

"Here lies the body of John O Shea
Who died maintaining his right away
He was right, dead right, as he drove along
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong"

grogi · 21-08-2018 9:28pm

What is really scary is the number of people that simply believe everything they are told, who don't question and think on their own.

stimpson · 21-08-2018 9:38pm

dudara wrote: »

Red car made a mistake. Blue car is at fault IMO for not failing to see trafific on their left and driving into them as a result. Sucks donkey balls for blue, but doesn’t absolve them IMO.

You’d always check your mirrors when exiting a roundabout in such a situation.

Red car is turning right from the left lane. They should be taken out of the car and beaten with their own shoes. There are lane markings for a reason.

TheChizler · 21-08-2018 9:49pm

stimpson wrote: »

There are lane markings for a reason.

If you would be so good as to point them out

stimpson · 21-08-2018 9:50pm

TheChizler wrote: »

If you would be so good as to point them out

Post #1. Check the arrows.

TheChizler · 21-08-2018 9:52pm

stimpson wrote: »

Post #1. Check the arrows.

Not on the roundabout though.

stimpson · 21-08-2018 9:55pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Not on the roundabout though.

Can you not see that they relate to the roundabout? Please tell me you don’t drive.

Grolschevik · 21-08-2018 9:55pm

How did this get to over 170 replies?

TheChizler · 21-08-2018 10:01pm

stimpson wrote: »

Can you not see that they relate to the roundabout? Please tell me you don’t drive.

If you go back and read my posts you'll see I agree the red car is probably in the wrong.

No need to throw a dig in about someone's driving based on them pointing out how your post didn't follow from the OP. But I'd be worrying about your driving if you are seeing lanes that aren't there! Lane markings before and after a roundabout tell you nothing about lane separation or structure on the roundabout itself. A concentric lane marking on the roundabout would put the blue car firmly in the wrong. The arrows imply the structure is more spiral but they are not lane markings as you said.

Sadb · 21-08-2018 10:09pm

TheChizler wrote: »

If you go back and read my posts you'll see I agree the red car is probably in the wrong.

No need to throw a dig in about someone's driving based on them pointing out how your post didn't follow from the OP. But I'd be worrying about your driving if you are seeing lanes that aren't there! Lane markings before and after a roundabout tell you nothing about lane separation or structure on the roundabout itself. A concentric lane marking on the roundabout would put the blue car firmly in the wrong. The arrows imply the structure is more spiral but they are not lane markings as you said.

You do know that the diagram in post 1 is just a drawing?
Look at this roundabout, it’s clearly marked. Are you saying that it is perfectly acceptable for the red blur to continue around to the right and cut in front of the blue that is staying in their lane? Even if there are no road markings on this particular roundabout, the absence of road marking do not make it acceptable to drive whatever way you wish. If you are driving on a country road with no centre line (of which many don’t) is it then acceptable to drive on the right hand side?

TheChizler · 21-08-2018 10:12pm

Sadb wrote: »

You do know that the diagram in post 1 is just a drawing?
Look at this roundabout, it’s clearly marked. Are you saying that it is perfectly acceptable for the red blur to continue around to the right and cut in front of the blue that is staying in their lane? Even if there are no road markings on this particular roundabout, the absence of road marking do not make it acceptable to drive whatever way you wish. If you are driving on a country road with no centre line (of which many don’t) is it then acceptable to drive on the right hand side?

No I'm not saying that. The Bandon Road Roundabout is a completely different roundabout that is well marked. I am only talking about the OP's situation.

And my last post is a response to stimpson saying look at the markings, when there were no useful markings. Of course you should be more careful when there are no markings and use your common sense, that's my point.

Trasna1 · 21-08-2018 10:14pm

grogi wrote: »

What is really scary is the number of people that simply believe everything they are told, who don't question and think on their own.

When it comes to the Rules of the Road, questioning them and doing your own thing really aren't good things.

Everyone needs to work of the same rulebook, for it to work safely.

stimpson · 21-08-2018 10:16pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Lane markings before and after a roundabout tell you nothing about lane separation or structure on the roundabout itself.

Of course they do. They instruct you on what you can do on the roundabout in certain lanes. From the RTA:

12.—(1) An authorised broken white line on a roadway shall indicate the boundary of a traffic lane.

(2) White arrows placed in traffic lanes at an approach to a road junction shall indicate to drivers the direction to be taken by traffic using those lanes, as follows :—

(a) in the case of arrows pointing straight ahead, a driver using the traffic lane in which those arrows are placed shall proceed straight through the junction ;

(b) in the case of arrows pointing or curved to the left, a driver using the traffic lane in which those arrows are placed shall turn left at the junction ;

(c) in the case of arrows pointing or curved to the right, a driver using the traffic lane in which those arrows are placed shall turn right at the junction.

(3) A white line, terminating in an arrowhead and with an additional arrowhead branching from it to the left or to the right, placed in a traffic lane at an approach to a road junction shall indicate to drivers the direction to be taken by traffic using that lane, as follows :

(a) where the additional arrow branches to the left, a driver using the lane in which the white line is placed shall either proceed straight through the junction or turn left at the junction ;

((b) where the additional arrow branches to the right, a driver using the lane in which the white line is placed shall either proceed straight through the junction or turn right at the junction.

So if the red car was in a lane with an arrow that instructed him to go straight on and he turned right then he is at fault. It’s that simple.

TheChizler · 21-08-2018 10:19pm

stimpson wrote: »

Of course they do. They instruct you on what you can do on the roundabout in certain lanes. From the RTA:

So if the red car was in a lane with an arrow that instructed him to go straight on and he turned right then he is at fault. It’s that simple.

Ah, I suspect you're using 'lane markings' to mean all road markings, including arrows, when it normally just means (IMO) the broken or solid lines that separate lanes.

Who is at fault here?

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