Who is at fault here?

TheChizler

Henry Ford III wrote: »

This is frankly astonishing. Anyone who believes going around a roundabout in lane 1 and then exiting at the 3pm exit is in anyway acceptable would want to have a long hard think about their judgement and suitability to drive a vehicle safely.

I think anyone arguing anything even remotely like that a) isn't saying they'd do it themselves, and b) is saying it with the proviso that there's no law against it and that if there's no one near you to cut off, you check all around you before changing lane, and indicate and change safely, there's nothing illegal or dangerous about what you're doing. It doesn't make sense but nothing wrong with it. People make last minute decisions to continue around roundabouts instead of taking an exit all the time, what's the problem as long as they do it safely and aren't cutting other people off?

Of course they should be in the right hand lane for common sense reasons, but what's the problem with the above?

?Cee?view

grogi wrote: »

And personal trips again...

Not my fault that you would prefer to obey the pub-heart rules than law of the road.

Is your argument that the law (including road traffic law) in Ireland is what is set out in statute and what is written in Acts and Statutory Instruments?

Henry Ford III

TheChizler wrote:

Of course they should be in the right hand lane for common sense reasons, but what's the problem with the above?

Illegality. It's probably dangerous driving.

grogi

?Cee?view wrote: »

Is your argument that the law (including road traffic law) in Ireland is what is set out in statute and what is written in Acts and Statutory Instruments?

Yes. And I am open to correction on the above.

clfy39tzve8njq

grogi wrote:

And personal trips again...

If you go through roundabouts as you're suggesting here tripping will be the least of your worries.

Larbre34

I can't put this much simpler for those making up their own rules of the road.

This exact scenario happened my colleague on her way to work. She was northbound through the Cherrywood Business Park roundabout on the R118, which has since been replaced with a signal controlled junction.

She was the blue car. A BMW 5 series was the red car. Red tried to overtake her on the outside of the roundabout in order to get ahead and around her for the 3o'c exit. He did this in her blind spot and caught her front left corner with his rear door section.

Because of this, she insisted on bringing the Gardai to the scene. Both they and the insurance companies assigned blame to Red without hesitation. Red is at fault in the scenario.

?Cee?view

grogi wrote: »

Yes. And I am open to correction on the above.

A Google gives this.

"...legal systems in countries around the world generally fall into one of two main categories: common law systems and civil law systems. There are roughly 150 countries that have what can be described as primarily civil law systems, whereas there are about 80 common law countries.

The main difference between the two systems is that in common law countries, case law — in the form of published judicial opinions — is of primary importance, whereas in civil law systems, codified statutes predominate."

Ireland is a common law system. Therefore, you cannot just view statutes and acts as the sole source of law. You also have to have regard to the courts interpretation of issues. The courts frequently deal with interpreting issues of statute and those interpretations then become settled law.

TLDR - just because an Act or Statute doesn't say something is illegal doesn't mean its legal.

clfy39tzve8njq

Larbre34 wrote:

Both they and the insurance companies assigned blame to Red without hesitation. Red is at fault in the scenario.

You'll never convince some of the bar room lawyers here of that.

grogi

?Cee?view wrote: »

A Google gives this.

"...legal systems in countries around the world generally fall into one of two main categories: common law systems and civil law systems. There are roughly 150 countries that have what can be described as primarily civil law systems, whereas there are about 80 common law countries.

The main difference between the two systems is that in common law countries, case law — in the form of published judicial opinions — is of primary importance, whereas in civil law systems, codified statutes predominate."

Ireland is a common law system. Therefore, you cannot just view statutes and acts as the sole source of law. You also have to have regard to the courts interpretation of issues. The courts frequently deal with interpreting issues of statute and those interpretations then become settled law.

TLDR - just because an Act or Statute doesn't say something is illegal doesn't mean its legal.

And that's why I previously asked if there is a precedent...

sKeith

Larbre34 wrote: »

I can't put this much simpler for those making up their own rules of the road.

This exact scenario happened my colleague on her way to work. She was northbound through the Cherrywood Business Park roundabout on the R118, which has since been replaced with a signal controlled junction.

She was the blue car. A BMW 5 series was the red car. Red tried to overtake her on the outside of the roundabout in order to get ahead and around her for the 3o'c exit. He did this in her blind spot and caught her front left corner with his rear door section.

Because of this, she insisted on bringing the Gardai to the scene. Both they and the insurance companies assigned blame to Red without hesitation. Red is at fault in the scenario.

Your Red car was preforming an illegal and dangerous manoeuvrer that did not work out for them. They should not be overtaking on the left. Their dangerous driving caused the accident, so they are at fault.


Still does not mean, that in the scenario were red is in the left lane and was always in front of blue, indicating to go to 3 o'clock, that blue has the right to crash into red and blame the whole thing on red.

?Cee?view

grogi wrote: »

And that's why I previously asked if there is a precedent...

Which contradicts your answer above. If you believed law is sourced in statutes and acts then precedent would be irrelevant.

Somewhat ironically you’re going around in circles here.

grogi

?Cee?view wrote: »

Which contradicts your answer above. If you believed law is sourced in statutes and acts then precedent would be irrelevant.

Somewhat ironically you’re going around in circles here.

So is there or not?

1983ish

sKeith wrote: »

Your Red car was preforming an illegal and dangerous manoeuvrer that did not work out for them. They should not be overtaking on the left. Their dangerous driving caused the accident, so they are at fault.


Still does not mean, that in the scenario were red is in the left lane and was always in front of blue, indicating to go to 3 o'clock, that blue has the right to crash into red and blame the whole thing on red.

That’s exactly what it means.
Red should have stayed left going through the roundabout and exited straight ahead in the leftmost lane. Any other point that is being made is moot
Mellor done a graphic a few pages ago that shows it perfectly

by8auj6csd3ioq

Mellor wrote: »

Blaine Grumpy Warship wrote: »

that is wrong but i am not going round in circles with this

I've explained why you are wrong is clear terms, and backed it up with simple logic. You are free to disagree, but "I'm not saying why" is no different to "I can't say why".


Just seen your link. You realise that agreeds with me right. See the part about paying attention to directional arrows.

no it is not so don't presume to tell me my motive. or what i know or don't know.you may have time to play lawyer for 24 pages . i don't. my link does not prove your point. there are no right turn  directional arrows on the op diagram

martingriff

GreeBo wrote: »

So you cant understand how speed can impact one car not seeing another car when they look in their mirrors?

Its no wonder the M50 is full of crashes all day long, please stay off the road or at least out of my way thanks.

Way for the dig man. 17 years driving and my only accident was me getting rear ended when I was stopped at an entrance to roundabout waiting for traffic to clear.

As for speed of a car by looking in a mirror yes I can see how it impacts. However if you look see a car indicate and then look and the car is either got close then you know to wait. Now if you look after indicating and you can see the car behind you as you move out as you can glance in the mirror as moving out then there should be no earthly way you will hit the car unless you are going 1 kph and they are going 60 and if that is the case you are still at fault for going that slow

The Rape of Lucretia

Fieldsman wrote: »

If worries me greatly that 'The Rape Of Lucretia' might hold a licence and driving on our roads.

What has having a licence got to do with anything? Having a piece of paper is not going to make you drive safely.

The Rape of Lucretia

To sum up, I think it is fair to say that the most reasoned and majority of replies here do correctly conclude that the blue driver is at fault, and the red driver is blameless. If nothing else, hopefully any posters who initially thought the red driver was at fault, have learned something, and the roads of Ireland are a safer place for this robustly debated thread.

Henry Ford III

The Rape of Lucretia wrote:

To sum up, I think it is fair to say that the most reasoned and majority of replies here do correctly conclude that the blue driver is at fault, and the red driver is blameless. If nothing else, hopefully any posters who initially thought the red driver was at fault, have learned something, and the roads of Ireland are a safer place for this robustly debated thread.

Classic 😂

CeilingFly

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

To sum up, I think it is fair to say that the most reasoned and majority of replies here do correctly conclude that the blue driver is at fault, and the red driver is blameless. If nothing else, hopefully any posters who initially thought the red driver was at fault, have learned something, and the roads of Ireland are a safer place for this robustly debated thread.

Are you serious - taking the third exit and starting from the left approach lane?

Wrong in every sense unless specifically marked out by signage.

And I'll place money on it too.

V8 Interceptor

Lucretia's on the wind up.

cursai

I'm scared of roundabouts after reading this thread. So many dangerous people driving.

The Rape of Lucretia

CeilingFly wrote: »

Are you serious - taking the third exit and starting from the left approach lane?

Wrong in every sense unless specifically marked out by signage.

And I'll place money on it too.

Third exit ?

The Rape of Lucretia

cursai wrote: »

I'm scared of roundabouts after reading this thread. So many dangerous people driving.

Indeed. The number of people who thing you are at fault if you dont yield to them while they swing across your lane is extraordinary. And worse, think you would be at fault if they crash into you as they do so. Truly extraordinary.

V8 Interceptor

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Indeed. The number of people who thing you are at fault if you dont yield to them while they swing across your lane is extraordinary. And worse, think you would be at fault if they crash into you as they do so. Truly extraordinary.

If you think that's what people who are exiting a R'bout going straight ahead then you're as nuts as the Yanks I see causing havoc everyday

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107833118&postcount=3319

GreeBo

martingriff wrote: »

Way for the dig man. 17 years driving and my only accident was me getting rear ended when I was stopped at an entrance to roundabout waiting for traffic to clear.

As for speed of a car by looking in a mirror yes I can see how it impacts. However if you look see a car indicate and then look and the car is either got close then you know to wait. Now if you look after indicating and you can see the car behind you as you move out as you can glance in the mirror as moving out then there should be no earthly way you will hit the car unless you are going 1 kph and they are going 60 and if that is the case you are still at fault for going that slow

17 years?
Oh I take it all back so. :cool:

I think for my own sake I'm going to treat you as you treat the ROTR and ignore you. Good day.

martingriff

GreeBo wrote: »

17 years?
Oh I take it all back so. :cool:

I think for my own sake I'm going to treat you as you treat the ROTR and ignore you. Good day.

Oh I am sorry how many years to I have to have to be taken seriously. I don't know how about an actual reasonable response then I am just going to ignore you.

The Rape of Lucretia

martingriff wrote: »

Oh I am sorry how many years to I have to have to be taken seriously. I don't know how about an actual reasonable response then I am just going to ignore you.

Ah, he only said 'Good Day'.
It could have been worse 'Good Day Sir', the 'Sir' making all the difference in this upgrade to its level of dismissal of you.
Let alone, the even stronger version of that again, 'Good Day to you Sir', which might even have had an exclamation mark at the end of it for extra punch.

goat2

cursai wrote: »

I'm scared of roundabouts after reading this thread. So many dangerous people driving.

I am not scared of roundabouts, just those using them, those two cars positioned themselves in the wrong lane entering the roundabout, staying left for first exit straight on for one, and on the inside for the one making it out second exit

GreeBo

goat2 wrote: »

I am not scared of roundabouts, just those using them, those two cars positioned themselves in the wrong lane entering the roundabout, staying left for first exit straight on for one, and on the inside for the one making it out second exit

Still wrong so I guess you are trolling at this stage as you have been corrected multiple times, blue car is perfectly correct.

GhostyMcGhost

goat2 wrote: »

I am not scared of roundabouts, just those using them, those two cars positioned themselves in the wrong lane entering the roundabout, staying left for first exit straight on for one, and on the inside for the one making it out second exit

Really?