Minister for Health Simon Harris and family trapped in home by protesters.

hatrickpatrick · 11-02-2019 1:58pm

Pissartist wrote: »

i find your signature offensive.

Take it up with either of the users quoted, I am a mere conduit

For context, the Hope Solo remark was in reference to The Fappening of 2014, whilst the YouTube comment section remark was in reference to the live chat section on a Conor McGregor vs Nate Diaz press conference :pac:

Pissartist · 11-02-2019 2:01pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Take it up with either of the users quoted, I am a mere conduit

For context, the Hope Solo remark was in reference to The Fappening of 2014, whilst the YouTube comment section remark was in reference to the live chat section on a Conor McGregor vs Nate Diaz press conference :pac:

It's your slagging of the weakest part of society that i find cheap, childish and crass.

Dakotabigone · 11-02-2019 2:04pm

Pissartist wrote: »

I can't believe he has a child

What’s non believable about it? It’s non complicated.

11-02-2019 2:10pm

mzungu wrote: »

He's human, he messed up.

Not only did he take his eye of the runaway spending, he knew the Hospital was hundreds of millions of euro over budget, and misled the Dáil on the matter.

If it were a few hundred euros *under* budget, you can be sure he'd have been telling everyone. We've now gotten into a situation where it may be too late to change course, and the Budget looks likely to run even further out of control, to the detriment of healthcare outcomes in other areas.

This was a monumental cock-up, people have been fired for less. The way some people are going on, a stranger to this story would think he just ordered a few too many boxes of printer cartridges.

The idea that someone can mismanage a budget by hundreds of millions a of public money, and retain their job, is frankly depressing.

We've seen similar crazy overspending with Metrolink, the Port Tunnel, and the road network. It's as if people have been so badly served by a small number if ministers, that we no longer expect any accountability.

hatrickpatrick · 11-02-2019 2:13pm

Pissartist wrote: »

It's your slagging of the weakest part of society that i find cheap, childish and crass.

I find this characterisation of Hope Solo appallingly unwarranted. She may be a goalkeeper, but she's one of the best in the world dammit.

hatrickpatrick · 11-02-2019 2:15pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Not only did he take his eye of the runaway spending, he knew the Hospital was hundreds of millions of euro over budget, and misled the Dáil on the matter.

It's very similar to the Frances FitzGerald debacle of Winter 2017 - the actual overspend, while an extremely serious matter, is in my view actually less serious than the matter of intentionally lying to the Oireachtas. That should be an immediately fireable offence - either he knew about it and chose to lie, or he was ignorant of matters he should have made it his business to keep a personal eye on.

MrMusician18 · 11-02-2019 2:26pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Not only did he take his eye of the runaway spending, he knew the Hospital was hundreds of millions of euro over budget, and misled the Dáil on the matter.

If it were a few hundred euros *under* budget, you can be sure he'd have been telling everyone. We've now gotten into a situation where it may be too late to change course, and the Budget looks likely to run even further out of control, to the detriment of healthcare outcomes in other areas.

This was a monumental cock-up, people have been fired for less. The way some people are going on, a stranger to this story would think he just ordered a few too many boxes of printer cartridges.

The idea that someone can mismanage a budget by hundreds of millions a of public money, and retain their job, is frankly depressing.

We've seen similar crazy overspending with Metrolink, the Port Tunnel, and the road network. It's as if people have been so badly served by a small number if ministers, that we no longer expect any accountability.

All fair enough, but why take the post to his house. His wife and child have nothing to do with it.

CrankyHaus · 11-02-2019 2:29pm

Anyone know the background of the people behind this group?

Giving themselves names like "Battalion" and "Flying Column" suggests Republican leanings. I noticed Dissos seem to have jumped on the rural anti-eviction bandwagon. Is this the same story here?

Tiguan Joe · 11-02-2019 2:32pm

Terrible carry on.

11-02-2019 2:36pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

All fair enough, but why take the post to his house. His wife and child have nothing to do with it.

I agree that that was both counter-productive and unnecessary, but it was a Dad's Army 'batallion' of eleven idiots on a Sunday afternoon in Greystones. People are going way over-the-top in a clamour of shock and outrage, one person even invoked the brutal murder of Jo Cox MP, asking 'where will it all end?!' My Christ.

My point isn't that this tiny protest was justified, but that it doesn't amount to a hill of beans. It's absurd to see it as the main headline on the front page of today's Indo.

WinnyThePoo · 11-02-2019 2:38pm

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Anyone know the background of the people behind this group?

Giving themselves names like "Battalion" and "Flying Column" suggests Republican leanings. I noticed Dissos seem to have jumped on the rural anti-eviction bandwagon. Is this the same story here?

Yep. They released a statement with words such as free state and blue shirts.

branie2 · 11-02-2019 2:42pm

I'm all for protesting, but this is just wrong; it should be outside the Dail.

Marengo · 11-02-2019 2:42pm

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Anyone know the background of the people behind this group?

Giving themselves names like "Battalion" and "Flying Column" suggests Republican leanings. I noticed Dissos seem to have jumped on the rural anti-eviction bandwagon. Is this the same story here?

Republican leanings.. We live in the Republic of Ireland, I'd be surprised if they were monarchists.

Also this association of Republicanism as evil and labelling people 'Shinner' has to stop. It is legitimate to be a Republican and law abiding.

canonball5 · 11-02-2019 2:50pm

branie2 wrote: »

I'm all for protesting, but this is just wrong; it should be outside the Dail.

I still haven't seen any pictures or videos of this. In this day and age where everyone has a phone if this did actually happen I'm sure there would have been evidence.

If it did happen these people are scum!

Wheeliebin30 · 11-02-2019 2:52pm

canonball5 wrote: »

I still haven't seen any pictures or videos of this. In this day and age where everyone has a phone if this did actually happen I'm sure there would have been evidence.

If it did happen these people are scum!

What there is pics all over the net?

Boggles · 11-02-2019 2:55pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

the actual overspend, while an extremely serious matter, is in my view actually less serious than the matter of intentionally lying to the Oireachtas. That should be an immediately fireable offence

Nah, as long as you come in these days, correct it and say you "misspoke", you're grand.

Simon will do it this week, pretend to say sorry, but not really.

We'll go back to incompetence being a perfectly acceptable level of job performance at Ministerial Level.

That reminds me how is the National Broadband Plan coming along, it was 7 years old last week, still out for tender?

Meanwhile

I hear we are getting 4G on the Moon.

The Moon Will Get Its Own Mobile Phone Network in 2019

gmisk · 11-02-2019 2:58pm

canonball5 wrote: »

I still haven't seen any pictures or videos of this. In this day and age where everyone has a phone if this did actually happen I'm sure there would have been evidence.

If it did happen these people are scum!

https://www.facebook.com/FINGALBATTALION
If it did happen?!?! :rolleyes:

You must not have looked too hard....there are pictures and videos on their own facebook page.

Boggles · 11-02-2019 3:09pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I agree that that was both counter-productive and unnecessary, but it was a Dad's Army 'batallion' of eleven idiots on a Sunday afternoon in Greystones. People are going way over-the-top in a clamour of shock and outrage, one person even invoked the brutal murder of Jo Cox MP, asking 'where will it all end?!' My Christ.

TBF that level of hyperbolic nonsense is not exclusive to internet forums.

TD Noel Coonan likens water protesters to ISIS

Mrsmum · 11-02-2019 3:11pm

I think the protesters were very wrong and also very foolish. They gave Harris the sympathy vote at a time when he is an absolute disgrace.

I feel sorry for his wife but I think she needs to decide if their baby is to be part of his electioneering, Politicians are courting votes at all times and the picture of his wife and newborn that he circulated on social media was just that. He could have made the happy announcement just as well by displaying tiny baby feet or some such generic picture. If he is going to put them out there, the harsh realities of life are that others will have a go at them and imo they deserve more protection from him than that.

CrankyHaus · 11-02-2019 3:15pm

Marengo wrote: »

Republican leanings.. We live in the Republic of Ireland, I'd be surprised if they were monarchists.

Also this association of Republicanism as evil and labelling people 'Shinner' has to stop. It is legitimate to be a Republican and law abiding.

I agree, in fact not only is Republicanism perfectly legitimate it is the basis of our nation.

However unless you've been living under a rock for the last 100 years you must be aware that the label "republican" has been appropriated by people who go a little further than merely being opposed to monarchy.

As such it is a useful shorthand to describe groups who refuse to recognise the Republic of Ireland as a legitimate state, referring to it as "The Free State" instead, and who take that jumping off point to justify criminal racketeering, fuel smuggling, profiting from the drugs trade, murder and intimidation. All for "the cause" of course, though whether that's the cause of Ireland or their own bank balance is hard to tell. Many of them are also opposed to the GFA, which was voted for by an overwhelming majority North and South, and are referred to as dissidents. From the language of this group it seems reasonable to suspect some connection, don't you agree?

eagle eye · 11-02-2019 3:16pm

Yeah these protesters weren't up to much and shouldn't be going to his home but it does appear they were a very harmless bunch.
It bears no resemblance to the Joan Burton ordeal. Anybody likening them is being way ott.

MrMusician18 · 11-02-2019 3:17pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think the protesters were very wrong and also very foolish. They gave Harris the sympathy vote at a time when he is an absolute disgrace.

I feel sorry for his wife but I think she needs to decide if their baby is to be part of his electioneering, Politicians are courting votes at all times and the picture of his wife and newborn that he circulated on social media was just that. He could have made the happy announcement just as well by displaying tiny baby feet or some such generic picture. If he is going to put them out there, the harsh realities of life are that others will have a go at them and imo they deserve more protection from him than that.

Do you think they if he hadn't posted that photo it would've deterred yesterday's protesters?

Epic Eir Epic · 11-02-2019 3:18pm

Omackeral wrote: »

Some headline. Anti-austerity protesters have gathered outside the home of Minister for Health Simon Harris this afternoon.
According to Independent.ie the Harris, his wife and their young baby were in their Wicklow home when up to 20 protestors arrived outside this morning.

His spokesperson said in a statement that they are all currently still inside the house and that the situation is ongoing.

"Minister, his wife and three-week-old daughter remain inside while they await the arrival of the gardaí."

Gardaí have reportedly been in contact and are on their way to the minister's Wicklow home.

The protests come following Harris being under intense public scrutiny in recent weeks.

Story

A three year old daughter can definitely come in handy when looking for sympathy. Meanwhile, €1 billion gets flushed down the toilet, no different from the Irish water consultants.

Mrsmum · 11-02-2019 3:21pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Do you think they if he hadn't posted that photo it would've deterred yesterday's protesters?

See I wouldn't go outside his house but I couldn't possibly figure what would be going on in the mind of others.

But for me they are two separate things and I don't like either.

tretorn · 11-02-2019 3:22pm

Epic Eir Epic wrote: »

A three year old daughter can definitely come in handy when looking for sympathy. Meanwhile, €1 billion gets flushed down the toilet, no different from the Irish water consultants.

His daughter is three weeks old and not three years.

He just looks like he hasnt slept for three years, good enough for him with all his lick arsing during the abortion referendum, he could do no wrong in the medias eyes and he started to believe the hype. He took his eye off the rest of the job completely and now we have the toxic mess that is the National Childrens Hospital.

Wheeliebin30 · 11-02-2019 3:24pm

tretorn wrote: »

His daughter is three weeks old and not three years.

He just looks like he hasnt slept for three years, good enough for him with all his lick arsing during the abortion referendum, he could do no wrong in the medias eyes and he started to believe the hype. He took his eye off the rest of the job completely and now we have the toxic mess that is the National Childrens Hospital.

The children’s hospital has been a mess for 20 years.

Acosta · 11-02-2019 3:25pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think the protesters were very wrong and also very foolish. They gave Harris the sympathy vote at a time when he is an absolute disgrace.

They're absolute morons for doing it. They gave Harris, the government and their lapdogs in the media a break they most definitely do not deserve.

I can't find it now, but there was a headline in the spindo online this morning about the protest and the article started with stuff about nurses.

It was below the belt stuff, stupid and lacked class but lets not go OTT here. There was about 12 of them. A new low in politics it was not. In a country so bent and were state agencies and bodies connected to the state have caused so much suffering both in the past and present and are allowed to carry on like nothing has happened, politicians should thank their lucky stars that the majority of people in Ireland act like their in some sort of warped permanent state of sedation.

Plumbthedepths · 11-02-2019 3:31pm

Vote of no confidence being tabled against Harris but the 'Siege of Wicklow' where the minister was trapped fearing for his life and that of his family against a mob of 11 middle aged, wild eyed crazies should play in his favour.
Back to my first comment here ..That's convenient.

Marengo · 11-02-2019 3:36pm

CrankyHaus wrote: »

I agree, in fact not only is Republicanism perfectly legitimate it is the basis of our nation.

However unless you've been living under a rock for the last 100 years you must be aware that the label "republican" has been appropriated by people who go a little further than merely being opposed to monarchy.

As such it is a useful shorthand to describe groups who refuse to recognise the Republic of Ireland as a legitimate state, referring to it as "The Free State" instead, and who take that jumping off point to justify criminal racketeering, fuel smuggling, profiting from the drugs trade, murder and intimidation. All for "the cause" of course, though whether that's the cause of Ireland or their own bank balance is hard to tell. Many of them are also opposed to the GFA, which was voted for by an overwhelming majority North and South, and are referred to as dissidents. From the language of this group it seems reasonable to suspect some connection, don't you agree?

Well i for one am claim it back under Tone's definition, Russell's definition etc. It's a bit like the tricolour. People like you only continue these wrong asumptions and leave 'Republicanism' to the gumman.

I'm a proud constitutional Irish Republican who abides by the law.

MrMusician18 · 11-02-2019 3:37pm

Building project overruns are always interesting. The media always frames them as waste, but to be honest the only waste really is the inflation.

If the hospital has been correctly priced initially it would be coming in at a similar price to this. If we are unhappy with the now final price, would we have been happier accepting a lesser hospital?

super_furry · 11-02-2019 3:38pm

GAA Beo wrote: »

Life is so hard for the millionaire Harris family in their mansion in leafy Greystones, how ever will they cope with the commoners outside their door. Spare me, I have sympathy for the hundreds of thousands struggling in this country. Many on the streets last night that the Fine Gaelers consider "bums".

Jesus wept. 'Leafy Greystones'? There's a tree in their estate so they must be baron-landlords?

Mansion? It's a semi-detached house in Wicklow.

Grayson · 11-02-2019 3:39pm

Marengo wrote: »

Republican leanings.. We live in the Republic of Ireland, I'd be surprised if they were monarchists.

Also this association of Republicanism as evil and labelling people 'Shinner' has to stop. It is legitimate to be a Republican and law abiding.

There's republicanism and then there's republicanism. We are all technically republicans. However there's a certain badsh1t crazy group of idiots who take it to the next level. The kind of idiots who bang on about sovereignty. They're in the same level of idiocy as the "freemen".

Anyone who decides to call their groups "Battalion" and "Flying Column" are complete morons.

AndrewJRenko · 11-02-2019 3:41pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Isn't it strange how those who are absolutely certain that it is overstaffed don't seem to have the slightest clue about how overstaffed it is.

It’s clearly over staffed given the costs.

But yet again, no specifics. How many people would you like to fire from the eHealth team?

hatrickpatrick · 11-02-2019 3:43pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Building project overruns are always interesting. The media always frames them as waste, but to be honest the only waste really is the inflation.

If the hospital has been correctly priced initially it would be coming in at a similar price to this. If we are unhappy with the now final price, would we have been happier accepting a lesser hospital?

It's more about the exposure of the people charged with managing the country's finances as frighteningly incompetent, and yet the near certainty that nobody in charge is going to be fired or face any meaningful consequences.

Turner · 11-02-2019 3:45pm

Just looked at the video. Talk about the dregs of society.

All on medical cards id say, one or two on disability (one fella even brought his walking stick) and no doubt one or two members of Saoradh (supported the bombing at Derry courthouse)

I know we have to have the right to protest, but to show up at a government ministers house where a mother is nursing a newborn baby.

This has to border on harassment or intimidation which are criminal offences.

Public order unit should have been called in to sweep this crowd of cretins up and deposit them back to whatever pub they normally spend all their dole/disabillity money in.

Gimme A Pound · 11-02-2019 3:45pm

Marengo wrote: »

this association of Republicanism as evil and labelling people 'Shinner' has to stop. It is legitimate to be a Republican and law abiding.

I agree very much but it's obvious they mean the extremist ones.

MrMusician18 · 11-02-2019 3:50pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's more about the exposure of the people charged with managing the country's finances as frighteningly incompetent, and yet the near certainty that nobody in charge is going to be fired or face any meaningful consequences.

If we had been told that this project was going to cost €2bn from the outset, what would the options have been? Really the only way would have been to down-spec. Would the public have accepted a lesser quality hospital, fewer beds and fewer services?

Don't get me wrong, budgeting is important, but the real hang up people seem to have is the price. This project was always going to cost this amount whether or not it was priced correctly beforehand.

11-02-2019 3:50pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Building project overruns are always interesting. The media always frames them as waste, but to be honest the only waste really is the inflation.

There's a well-known sharp practice in irish politics of deliberately low-balling a price for a desired capital project, in order to win Government approval, only for the costs to rise inevitably. If that is what happened here, it still doesn't excuse the behaviour of the Minister - arguably, it aggravates it, as it means he was completely oblivious to the possibility, on top of just not bothering to seek regular updates.

11-02-2019 3:53pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

This project was always going to cost this amount whether or not it was priced correctly beforehand.

this is complete nonsense. Not even FG ministers are saying that. I assume you can show us where you were saying this before the news emerged? Why did you sit on such an explosive news story? Amazing.

AndrewJRenko · 11-02-2019 3:54pm

Snow Garden wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Isn't it strange how those who are absolutely certain that it is overstaffed don't seem to have the slightest clue about how overstaffed it is.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/the-hse-can-t-work-out-how-many-staff-it-has-1.766165

The HSE can't work out how many staff it has

Now, as you all know by now, the HSE has some difficulty with figures. It can’t figure out how much PPARS (personnel, payroll and related systems) cost, or maybe it doesn’t want us to know. The latest debacle with the insurers could cost us €50 million, according to Prof Drumm, or nothing at all according to Minister Harney. It’s the way you tell ’em.

Then there are the conflicting reports as to how many actually work in the service. There seem to be about 112,000, give or take a few thousand. I became bogged down in this particular morass when I quoted figures used by three stockbroking firms, Davy, NCB and Goodbody in a joint paper issued on April 2nd. They averred that in the HSE there were about 49,000 administrative staff and 61,000 frontline staff and that such a ratio was unsustainable.

Rebuttal was swift and the numerical waters were muddied. A Mr Paul Connors, speaking for the HSE, said the true figure was 16,000 administrators. Further modification came from the highest levels of the organisation: there were only 6,000 in admin proper and the other 10,000 were in secretarial support of the frontline.

Stay with the maths awhile. If there are indeed only 16,000 and there are 61,000 frontline troops, that leaves 40,000 souls in limbo if the overall total is correct. What do these people do? Surely it is not beyond the capacity of this expensive overstaffed monstrosity to provide a categorical breakdown of its alleged 112,000-strong workforce? Then we’d all know and these controversies could finish. That would be a small step toward transparency. Needless to say, there is not a commercial company in the land that do not know their personnel numbers and into which categories they fall. Furthermore they don’t need an army to find out.

This explains why there are eight nurses trying to cope with upwards of 100 patients in a trolleyed AE unit and worked off their feet. It explains why one tired nurse, maybe with a care assistant, tries to cope with 40 older folk in a ramshackle under-funded facility at night.

Are you a flat Earther too?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Neligan

I'm not sure that quoting a ten year old opinion piece is a great way to move on a factual debate.

All the data on HSE numbers is published in the public domain

http://databank.per.gov.ie/Public_Service_Numbers.aspx?rep=Health

But why the mad rush to find data now? Surely you're not suggesting that all those pushing the 'overstaffed "line didn't actually have any basis for this claim?

MrMusician18 · 11-02-2019 4:04pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

this is complete nonsense. Not even FG ministers are saying that. I assume you can show us where you were saying this before the news emerged? Why did you sit on such an explosive news story? Amazing.

If I tender a build and I get a price of €1m but I have accidentally excluded €250k of necessary extras the final build price will be €1.25m.

However if I had the full tender, the price I would have got back from the builder would've been very close to €1.25m as well initially.

In the business we aim for the latter and not the former, as is that it's easier to ensure you can afford what your want built when you know the price up front. True, you will also get a marginally better price in the tender since it's the open market price however a good QS will be able to beat a contractor back to very close to market price.

blanch152 · 11-02-2019 4:06pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'm not sure that quoting a ten year old opinion piece is a great way to move on a factual debate.

All the data on HSE numbers is published in the public domain

http://databank.per.gov.ie/Public_Service_Numbers.aspx?rep=Health

But why the mad rush to find data now? Surely you're not suggesting that all those pushing the 'overstaffed "line didn't actually have any basis for this claim?

I have linked to the data several times in different threads on this issue.

Ireland is at the top of the EU rankings for nurses per head of population and nurses per hospital bed. We are also near the top of the rankings for nurses pay.

There is plenty wrong with the health service, but it is not nurses pay and it is not the number of nurses. How nurses are used and deployed, the economies of scale issue, nursing management grades created for nurses who could not handle the day-to-day work, how other grades are used and deployed etc. are all of more importance in solving the problems of the health service.

11-02-2019 4:11pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

If I tender a build and I get a price of €1m but I have accidentally excluded €250k of necessary extras the final build price will be €1.25m.

However if I had the full tender, the price I would have got back from the builder would've been very close to €1.25m as well initially.

In the business we aim for the latter and not the former, as is that it's easier to ensure you can afford what your want built when you know the price up front. True, you will also get a marginally better price in the tender since it's the open market price however a good QS will be able to beat a contractor back to very close to market price.

None of this is relevant to the National Children's Hospital. Nobody, not even Government ministers, are arguing that the overrun can be simply explained by 'accidental exclusions', or even construction inflation. There are hundreds of millions of euro that nobody can account for.

But let's all go apesh1t over an 11-man peaceful protest in leafy Greystones.

Billcarson · 11-02-2019 4:11pm

Acosta wrote: »

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think the protesters were very wrong and also very foolish. They gave Harris the sympathy vote at a time when he is an absolute disgrace.

that the majority of people in Ireland act like their in some sort of warped permanent state of sedation.

Fluoride in the water probably lol. Sorry off topic but another issue that should be addressed at some point.

MrMusician18 · 11-02-2019 4:21pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

None of this is relevant to the National Children's Hospital. Nobody, not even Government ministers, are arguing that the overrun can be simply explained by 'accidental exclusions', or even construction inflation. There are hundreds of millions of euro that nobody can account for.

But let's all go apesh1t over an 11-man peaceful protest in leafy Greystones.

Of course it can be explained by exclusions. Overruns are all extras. The money hasn't vanished into a hole, it hasn't even been handed over yet.

The extra overs are be being crystalized because the contractors are asking questions of the design team and these necessary amendment to the tender are now being priced. But this design was always going to cost this amount.

Such overruns point to major exclusions from the tender and tend to point to it being rushed to market. Had a 2bn price tag come out in the design stage the project would've been downgraded/trimmed/slashed. Would half size hospital at €1bn have been better than what was needed for €2bn?

I imagine the ultimate question will be who decided to go to tender with an incomplete/preliminary design and why.

James Brown · 11-02-2019 4:26pm

_Brian wrote: »

This doesn’t surprise me.

Can see from water protests onward that there are a very low class mixing with genuine protesters looking for nothing but a cover story to cause trouble and have a go, they’ve no “greater good” in mind, just trouble.

Following politicians home and intimidation of their families is real bad form and discredits all protesters.

Shame on whoever is doing this

No it doesn't. People are capable of seeing which causes and protesters they support and those they don't. I can see the odd outraged blue shirt using it on any protest they don't like like the water protests. 'ISIS' anyone?

spurious wrote: »

More of the scumbaggery that surrounded Joan Burton in her car.

Very organised and not at all a spontaneous act.

Paul Murphy wasn't invited. It was some random woman said 'will we keep her here all night?' the people there didn't invite Murphy. Some Councillors were there. All had their homes raided at dawn and three Garda gave false statements regarding Murphy. The people who caused any real trouble were never pursued apart from one trouble making kid.
Hardly organised by any side, maybe the Garda evidence

11-02-2019 4:30pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Of course it can be explained by exclusions. Overruns are all extras. The money hasn't vanished into a hole, it hasn't even been handed over yet.

The extra overs are be being crystalized because the contractors are asking questions of the design team and these necessary amendment to the tender are now being priced. But this design was always going to cost this amount.

Such overruns point to major exclusions from the tender and tend to point to it being rushed to market. Had a 2bn price tag come out in the design stage the project would've been downgraded/trimmed/slashed. Would half size hospital at €1bn have been better than what was needed for €2bn?

I imagine the ultimate question will be who decided to go to tender with an incomplete/preliminary design and why.

You have no way of actually knowing whether the cost increases have arisen on foot on lack of detail in the surveys, or because of changes to the plans, or because of complications thus far in the build including damage to adjacent property, or even construction firms taking the piss. Each possibility opens up further questions, going right back to whether the St James's site is suitable.

It's a bit of a nonsense to simply dismiss this by declaring that you always knew it would cost this much. Of course you did.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 11-02-2019 4:41pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

But yet again, no specifics. How many people would you like to fire from the eHealth team?

Of course I don’t have specifics. Running the Irish health service isn’t my job, but it costs more per capita than better services elsewhere and provides a much shoddier service. The extra cost is largely wage costs. Ergo it is over staffed.

I don’t feel I need to go through every employee and their specific remuneration to price that, nor could I.

11-02-2019 4:51pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Of course I don’t have specifics. Running the Irish health service isn’t my job, but it costs more per capita than better services elsewhere and provides a much shoddier service. The extra cost is largely wage costs. Ergo it is over staffed.

You're ignoring the facts that ireland has lower population density to most European countries, which is compounded by the fact that we rely more heavily on hospitals than primary care settings. So when you compare Ireland to a country like Holland, you're not comparing like with like. The health system that we operate is decades behind the rest of Europe, its a design that was created when Labour was comparatively cheap.

Having said that, it's worth mentioning that we spend less money on healthcare as a % of GDP than most OECD countries.

MrMusician18 · 11-02-2019 4:53pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

You have no way of actually knowing whether the cost increases have arisen on foot on lack of detail in the surveys, or because of changes to the plans, or because of complications thus far in the build including damage to adjacent property, or even construction firms taking the piss. Each possibility opens up further questions, going right back to whether the St James's site is suitable.

It's a bit of a nonsense to simply dismiss this by declaring that you always knew it would cost this much. Of course you did.

You are missing the point, as usual. I am not saying I always knew it would cost €2bn, obviously I didn't. What I am saying is that this design was always going to cost €2bn no matter what was budgeted, no matter if we found out before the tender, during construction or after.

Perhaps it will open up questions on whether this site was the right location, whether it could've been built cheaper elsewhere. It wouldn't have been though. Half of the cost seems to be made up with ancillary costs that would be present no matter what site was chosen.

But all the naysayers will keep floating the Blanchardstown red herring forever more all because it would have a bigger carpark

Minister for Health Simon Harris and family trapped in home by protesters.

Comments