Minister for Health Simon Harris and family trapped in home by protesters.

padd b1975

Fernando Mushy Flapjack wrote: »

Protesting against "austerity" - lol, wrong year, clowns.

****ing idiocy.

Protesting against MORE money than what was budgeted being spent and calling it austerity.

Complete loons.

Snow Garden

Those idiots will kill the debate which is a pity.

Snow Garden

martingriff wrote: »

So we have no health service for how long

I would say since Mary Harney amalgamated the regional health boards without laying off unwanted admin staff to create the biggest bureaucracy ever.
That was 2004. The HSE was a botch job and everybody in government knows it.

No minister or civil servant will ever take it on fully. I think Harrris genuinely tried but knows its pointless. It cannot be reformed.

AndrewJRenko

animaal wrote: »

Maybe he wants to protect his child from the loonies that would target his family. Are you suggesting that the baby doesn't exist?

The other poster said that Harris had posted a picture of the baby on his Twitter feed. There is no such picture on his Twitter feed. So I'm asking the other poster what picture he's referring to?

Snow Garden wrote: »

I would say since Mary Harney amalgamated the regional health boards without laying off unwanted admin staff to create the biggest bureaucracy ever.

Wasn't it Micheál Martin who set it up? And where are all these 'unwanted admin staff' now? Which particular staff do you want to lay off?

sabat

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Where's the picture of the baby on his Twitter feed?


https://twitter.com/search?f=images&vertical=default&q=from%3Asimonharristd&src=typd

Oh sorry, it was on his instagram. Completely different. I was way out of line to even dare suggest he was deliberately co-mingling his private and public lives as a manipulative vote-getter. I apologise unreservedly. Just hope he doesn't sue me for the error.

https://www.instagram.com/simonharristd/?hl=en

martingriff

Snow Garden wrote: »

I would say since Mary Harney amalgamated the regional health boards without laying off unwanted admin staff to create the biggest bureaucracy ever.
That was 2004. The HSE was a botch job and everybody in government knows it.

No minister or civil servant will ever take it on fully. I think Harrris genuinely tried but knows its pointless. It cannot be reformed.

I agree with you on that I do think he wants to do a great job but my question was to the post can we not just fire everyone and then start again so was wondering how long that would take and what would we do in the mean time. Also it was Michael Martin who set up the HSE almost overnight with no plan of how to do it. I said in another post it was the 1 and the bit I think O'Reilly had right. It takes time and needs to be done in stages

Snow Garden

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Wasn't it Micheál Martin who set it up? And where are all these 'unwanted admin staff' now? Which particular staff do you want to lay off?

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/harney-sets-out-to-save-the-hse-from-itself-1.944464

Harney.

she rushed through the legislation to establish the HSE amidst warnings from staff, management and unions that there was not enough clarity on the new structures and roles. They wanted more detail on the biggest public sector reform in the history of the State.

The establishment of the unified health service in the form of the HSE was flawed from the outset. It was insufficiently planned, lacked effective leadership and suffered immediately from a huge loss of organisational knowledge when many of the former health board chief executives left. It became an increasingly centralised, unaccountable body.

Under its structures, doctors, nurses, and service managers who previously had autonomy over local decisions have to get clearance from a plethora of managers in Dublin for day-to-day decisions about minor service developments.

Within a year of operation, HSE staff and their unions were talking openly about the difficulty in getting decisions made. There was growing criticism of the control and command culture operated from Dublin, and complaints that the excess of centralised management was stagnating key decisions on patient care.

HSE senior management was so busy "transforming" the service that the concerns identified by staff and patients were neither heard nor addressed.

15 years on and the experiment gets worse and worse. Each minister hires new managers to fix it. Laughable. Will you ever take the blinkers off?

For the current restructuring to succeed the mistakes made in the establishment of the HSE must not be repeated. Promises should not be made that cannot be delivered. The change must be well planned and executed. There must be clear and simple structures, communication and lines of accountability that staff, management and members of the public can easily understand.

Nothing has changed. It has probably worsened since 2004.

M Martin just brought in a smoking ban. He did SFA otherwise. The HSE managers love weak ministers the most!

It would seem that HSE restructuring is a last ditch attempt to salvage her only realised hallmark of health reform and the fiasco of her stewardship - the unaccountable, overly-bureaucratic, unresponsive HSE.

We now have a public who are afraid of their own health service.

It will never be fixed sadly. We cannot even learn the lessons if people forget so easily.

Don't get sick...

.

Gimme A Pound

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Do you do stand up comedy for a living?

Same sex marriage, the 8th repealed, country no longer in recession, social welfare increase (and exploited by freeloaders unfortunately) - all under FG. Don't be taken in by brainless populists.

sabat wrote: »

Oh sorry, it was on his instagram. Completely different. I was way out of line to even dare suggest he was deliberately co-mingling his private and public lives as a manipulative vote-getter. I apologise unreservedly. Just hope he doesn't sue me for the error.

https://www.instagram.com/simonharristd/?hl=en

He asked a question - calm down.

Snow Garden

martingriff wrote: »

I agree with you on that I do think he wants to do a great job but my question was to the post can we not just fire everyone and then start again so was wondering how long that would take and what would we do in the mean time. Also it was Michael Martin who set up the HSE almost overnight with no plan of how to do it. I said in another post it was the 1 and the bit I think O'Reilly had right. It takes time and needs to be done in stages

No it was Harney and it was rushed. It was a disaster waiting to happen. The plan was to 'rationalise' the health board work force (i.e. compulsory layoffs) but politics and votes intervened and nobody was fired.

What happens when you set up an organisation that is grossly overstaffed?
A massive bureaucracy where every unrequired non-frontline resource needs a new role in the "system".

Same happened in Irish Water only to a smaller scale.

The stupid Irish I guess.

Franz Von Peppercorn

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The other poster said that Harris had posted a picture of the baby on his Twitter feed. There is no such picture on his Twitter feed. So I'm asking the other poster what picture he's referring to?



Wasn't it Micheál Martin who set it up? And where are all these 'unwanted admin staff' now? Which particular staff do you want to lay off?

Is he supposed to know the roster?

martingriff

Snow Garden wrote: »

No it was Harney and it was rushed. It was a disaster waiting to happen. The plan was to 'rationalise' the health board work force (i.e. compulsory layoffs) but politics and votes intervened and nobody was fired.

What happens when you set up an organisation that is grossly overstaffed?
A massive bureaucracy where every unrequired non-frontline resource needs a new role in the "system".

Same happened in Irish Water only to a smaller scale.

The stupid Irish I guess.

I stand corrected and and agree with the rest

AndrewJRenko

Snow Garden wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/harney-sets-out-to-save-the-hse-from-itself-1.944464

Harney.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miche%C3%A1l_Martin

He introduced the first overhaul of the health system in 30 years. It included the abolition of the health boards and establishment of the Health Service Executive. He deregulated the country's pharmacies from 31 January 2002.[13]



In September 2004, he exchanged government positions with Mary Harney, to become Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment

AndrewJRenko

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Is he supposed to know the roster?

If he's claiming that staff need to be laid off, it's not unreasonable to ask 'which staff'?

Snow Garden

mikemac2 wrote: »

She wanted to. Mary Harney wanted to slash the waste and duplication

Got overruled by her boss Bertie Ahern who solved every negotiation with money and the easiest option available. And he won multiple elections so the voters rewarded him for it

Yes indeed, absolutely correct.

Harney wanted to because she knew it needed to be done for the HSE to work. They couldn't have centralised efficiency without removing duplicate staff.

And yes Bertie Benchmarking said No. He essentially blocked a vital element of the reform plan.

As I said, the stupid Irish got what they deserved.

Snow Garden

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

If he's claiming that staff need to be laid off, it's not unreasonable to ask 'which staff'?

Too late now. Are you employed to defend the indefensible? Have you ever actually worked in the HSE?
If you did, you would have seen the chaos everywhere. The comfy middle management layers too.

AndrewJRenko

Snow Garden wrote: »

Too late now. Are you employed to defend the indefensible? Have you ever actually worked in the HSE?
If you did, you would have seen the chaos everywhere. The comfy middle management layers too.

Why is it too late now? Same contractual situation for the employees concerned.


I haven't worked IN the HSE, but I have worked WITH the HSE. I didn't see too many 'comfy middle management' layers. I saw people working their asses off with poor resourcing, doing their best to create good outcomes.


And in some cases, maybe even in most cases, it actually works. We don't get news headlines for all the babies successfully born today and all the hip operations successfully completed this week.


Let's not get manipulated by the press into hysterics.


If there are people who need to be laid off, please give specifics of where they are - what functions/grades need to go.

Snow Garden

There was a great story in Galway A&E when Cowen was Taoiseach. It was reported in the newspapers.

He was doing a walkthru of the Galway Regional A&E and the HSE managers upstairs got word of it. They instructed the porters and staff to move all the trolleys into an unused area just off the A&E. He walked through and saw no trolleys/chaos (the usual) and when he was gone, they moved the trolleys back into the A&E.

end of the road

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Would it be legally possible
To just close it down and sack everybody.

Then open a new health service?

forget about the legality of it. it's a stupid idea. it's never going to happen for very obvious reasons.

Snow Garden

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Why is it too late now? Same contractual situation for the employees concerned.

I haven't worked IN the HSE, but I have worked WITH the HSE. I didn't see too many 'comfy middle management' layers. I saw people working their asses off with poor resourcing, doing their best to create good outcomes.

And in some cases, maybe even in most cases, it actually works. We don't get news headlines for all the babies successfully born today and all the hip operations successfully completed this week.

Let's not get manipulated by the press into hysterics.

If there are people who need to be laid off, please give specifics of where they are - what functions/grades need to go.

Ah stop. I worked there for just over a year. The inefficiency was obvious and yet many were so institutionalised by the bureaucracy that they simply accepted it. It drove the front line staff bananas! I would say all functions and all grades except front line staff.

There is waste everywhere. If anyone came in and analysed the work flows, they would see the inefficiencies. It wasn't my job to report these.
And I would also encourage real objectives and success criteria for the managers with real performance reviews.

Ah look, utterly pointless. Will never happen. I thought Harris might have some success cos he is young and hungry. He is a lame duck now.

AndrewJRenko

Snow Garden wrote: »

Ah stop. I worked there for just over a year. The inefficiency was obvious and yet many were so institutionalised by the bureaucracy and simply accepted it. I would say all functions and all grades except front line staff.

So you think the entire eHealth team that is trying to bring our health services into the 21st century with digital services should be fired?


And the digital team who are managing the main HSE website, the undertheweather and askaboutalcohol websites and more - they should all be fired too?

Snow Garden

Snow Garden wrote: »

There was a great story in Galway A&E when Cowen was Taoiseach. It was reported in the newspapers.

He was doing a walkthru of the Galway Regional A&E and the HSE managers upstairs got word of it. They instructed the porters and staff to move all the trolleys into an unused area just off the A&E. He walked through and saw no trolleys/chaos (the usual) and when he was gone, they moved the trolleys back into the A&E.

I found a link to this. I thought it has been deleted before.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/mayor-accuses-hse-of-hiding-the-reality-1.755103

A hospital porter told me he was instructed to do it with no questions asked.

Snow Garden

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So you think the entire eHealth team that is trying to bring our health services into the 21st century with digital services should be fired?


And the digital team who are managing the main HSE website, the undertheweather and askaboutalcohol websites and more - they should all be fired too?

Now you are just being an idiot. I never said any of that and you know it.

flazio

We've wandered off the point about if it's OK to target the private residence of someone who we feel have aggrieved us.
For what it's worth I think it is not.

end of the road

Berserker wrote: »

Any idea who is really behind this? Doubt it's the nurses, they've more class than this.



A proper slap on the wrists from the courts back then would have put a stop to this kind of nonsense. They let them off, so that makes these imbeciles think that it's acceptable and you have the hard left cheering them on behind closed doors.

they were found not guilty were they not? being found not guilty is not letting someone off or someone away with something.

mikeym

His family werent trapped and the protesters were not on his property.

Although I disapprove with people protesting outside politicians houses regardless of what party they represent.

Protest outside his constituency office or the HSE Hq or even the Dail.

AndrewJRenko

Snow Garden wrote: »

Now you are just being an idiot. I never said any of that and you know it.

You said " I would say all functions and all grades except front line staff".


They're not front line staff, so do you want them to be fired or not? Presumably not, based on your reaction.


Now are there any other front line staff you don't want fired? The people who purchase the supplies and equpment - should they be fired? The people who run the payroll operation - should they be fired?


If your own proposal of " I would say all functions and all grades except front line staff" doesn't really stand up, maybe you'd like to tell us again who should be fired?

Berserker

mikeym wrote: »

His family werent trapped and the protesters were not on his property.

Although I disapprove with people protesting outside politicians houses regardless of what party they represent.

Protest outside his constituency office or the HSE Hq or even the Dail.

They were standing outside his front garden. Would you risk going outside with a newborn baby, if you were in his shoes or his wife's?

tayto lover

flazio wrote: »

We've wandered off the point about if it's OK to target the private residence of someone who we feel have aggrieved us.
For what it's worth I think it is not.

It’s not a nice thing to do but I would have been in favor of targeting Phil Hogan when he targeted our homes during the water issue and threatened to reduce the water to a trickle. Couldn’t stand that lad.

Lone Stone

unless the guy was found taking back handers over this whole utter scam, that's just not really appropiate protesting is it his wife and kids have nothing to do with his job.

mariaalice

So if he had to leave his house the baby was sick or something they would have just moved off yeah? no shouting pushing or blocking them? let alone how intimidating it would be to have them outside the house.