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Analogue Switchoff - Public Awareness & Help Scheme

  • 13-08-2010 10:26am
    #1
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,636 ✭✭✭✭


    Following on from a recent discussion on an ASO help scheme and yesterday's Drivetime radio programme the Dept of Communications has launched a tender to collect information for a report on TV reception methods in Ireland (with particular emphasis on analogue terrestrial television).

    The report, amongst other things is to "inform the Department in how best to develop and deploy supportive policy interventions/options in the move from analogue terrestrial television (ATT) to digital terrestrial television (DTT)".
    DCENR is seeking applications from interested parties for the provision of services to the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources in respect of a robust and verifiable quantitative analysis of the current geographic and demographic television reception mechanisms in Ireland.
    The aim of the work is to provide a report on the TV reception methods in Ireland (with particular emphasis on analogue terrestrial television). In order to prepare the report research must be undertaken that will involve the use of surveys and these surveys must use sampling in such a way that it is sufficiently large to support a significant amount of sub analysis by target grouping and further detailed assessment. It is envisaged that the margin of error will be less than, maximum, +/- 3%.

    The final report will
    (i) inform the Department in how best to develop and deploy supportive policy interventions/options in the move from analogue terrestrial television (ATT) to digital terrestrial television (DTT)
    (ii) inform the analogue switchover policy
    (iii) deepen market information in relation to DTT services

    1.2. Required Services
    1. Development of a TV household questionnaire aimed at finding answers to the following:
    a. numbers of TV households nationally that use the different types of television reception methods;
    b. numbers of TV households nationally who rely on analogue terrestrial television as their primary method of TV reception, as a function of location;
    c. socio-economic circumstances of these analogue only TV households;
    d. the ability of these analogue only TV households to upgrade to a digital television service;
    e. information on the type of aerial used by these households;
    f. the number and location of TV households where some form of assistance may be required in the upgrade to digital; and
    g. the type of assistance that such houses may need to upgrade to a digital service.

    2. Establishment and maintenance of a national TV user panel:
    a. Advise to the Department on the optimum number of participants for this type of survey;
    b. Selection of demographic and geographic areas from which the participants can be selected;
    c. recruitment of survey households;

    3. Conduct Survey (if most suitable approach)

    4. The collection and analysis of data from the participants and the questionnaire;

    5. On completion, the consultant will be expected to submit the following within 6 weeks after contract award:
    • An executive summary
    • A final evidence based and detailed Report, summarising the findings of the questionnaire and analysing these findings
    • Conduct a presentation to relevant Departmental officials / Minister following completion of the report

    The information submitted in the report must be provided in word/excel format.
    The progress of the project will be reviewed on an ongoing basis by the Department and the successful tenderer will be expected to accommodate this.
    The Department shall, if required, have access to the primary data and retains the right to use this primary data and analysis resulting from the survey as it sees fit.

    http://www.e-tenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=AUG164895

    This from today's Irish Times
    Study seeks to support switch to digital TV
    GENEVIEVE CARBERY

    Fri, Aug 13, 2010

    THE GOVERNMENT is seeking to discover if it will need to financially assist analogue television households for the digital switchover in late 2012.

    A survey to establish the type of households still reliant on the old-style analogue television signal is to be commissioned by the Department of Communications.

    The audit will come ahead of the move to digital television and the switching off of the terrestrial analogue signal in December 2012. This will mainly affect households that do not already subscribe to satellite or cable services.

    The socioeconomic circumstances of analogue households and their ability to upgrade to digital television will be among the topics in the questionnaire.

    The department also wants to know the number and location of households that may need assistance to upgrade to digital.

    The report’s aim is to help the Department of Communications to develop and deploy “supportive policy interventions/options in the move” from analogue to digital television, the survey tender document said.

    A spokesman for the department said the tender did not imply that the department was going to financially assist people in the changeover.

    The department had to establish “if there are issues”. Depending on the research results, the department may have to see if there is something it can do for people, the spokesman said.

    Other issues which the survey will be seeking to assess include the number of Irish households that use different types of television reception methods. The report is expected to cost some €50,000 and went to public tender yesterday.

    Over one-fifth (350,000) of Irish households rely on analogue terrestrial television, with the rest relying on cable and satellite, according to a department estimate.

    Separately, Fine Gael called on Minister for Communications Eamon Ryan to provide vouchers to people on low incomes to help them with the cost of buying a digital box or satellite dish if they needed one.

    Fine Gael communications spokesman Leo Varadkar said the switchover would not only affect analogue households but would also affect households with a second television which is not linked to cable or satellite.

    Mr Varadkar also called for a public awareness campaign in responding to a survey published by ComReg earlier this week, which revealed that just four in 10 people were aware of the analogue switch-off,

    The British government funded a digital switchover scheme for its television migration which will be completed by 2012.

    The British scheme funds or partially funds the equipment (usually a set-top box) and set up assistance for digital television for people over 75 and others in receipt of disability benefit.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0813/1224276712785.html

    The Comreg survey(s) that Leo Varadkar refer to are attached


«1345678

Comments

  • #2
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,636 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    markmagennis (Dr. Mark Magennis) of TV Access has also posted similar in another thread - Support for people in making the switch to digital. TV Access press release - Government researching need for switchover assistance.

    Can I suggest to mods to merge the two threads to avoid splitting the the discussion between the two threads.
    markmagennis wrote: »
    The Dept of Communications has today issued a request for tenders for research into the current geographic and demographic television reception mechanisms in Ireland, with particular emphasis on analogue terrestrial.

    They intend this research to inform their switchover policy, in particular concerning the provision of "supportive policy interventions/options".

    I wonder what kind of interventions people here would expect to see? I'm thinking along the lines of information, setup assistance and even financial help in the form of subsidies for those people who find it difficult to make the switch or difficult to afford it due to issues like disability, poverty or special circumstances that require equipment or expenditure above the norm.

    I'm particularly interested in this area from the perspective of social inclusion. Continued access to television at an affordable price is essential for full social inclusion and the enforced requirement for people to acquire, install and learn to use new digital equipment and services presents a significant barrier to many people who are older, disabled and/or on low incomes.

    I lead a coalition of organisations from across the disability, aging and poverty sectors in Ireland - TV Access. We have been campaigning on this issue for some time. One of the things we're asking for is a well-funded, far reaching and inclusive programme of information and assistance for those who find it difficult to make the switch for financial or practical (e.g. due to disability) reasons.

    Having met with various people within the Department (including the Minister and his predecessor), the Oireachtas Committee members, the BCI, RTÉ, Boxer, OneVision, etc. we aren't really any the wiser about what to expect along these lines. We know not to expect anything like the UK's Digital Switchover Help Scheme, but something in that direction is clearly necessary.

    There seem to be quite a few people on this board with a degree of experience and insight about public broadcasting and the policy environment so I would be very interested in hearing opinions about what level of switchover support for vulnerable consumers is possible or likely, given the current restrictive economic climate.

    Any thoughts on this important issue?

    Mark

    TV Access previously made a presentation to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Communications.


  • #3
    markmagennis
    Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭markmagennis


    Thanks for posting that info Cush, I was busy writing my own post at the time so didn't see it. Also useful to get the link to the previous discussion which I was unaware of and which provides some of the opinion and info I was looking for.

    Mark


  • #4
    almighty1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,183 ✭✭✭almighty1


    THE GOVERNMENT is seeking to discover if it will need to financially assist analogue television households for the digital switchover in late 2012.

    Firstly I know that digital is being forced on the good public and that by paying our TV license that we are entitled to a terrestrial service.

    BUT in fairness, the government shouldnt make themselves accountable to assist households when the countries finances are already in a dire state.

    If somebody wants terrestrial then go out and spend €100 on a STB and an aerial. Otherwise its an improved service for free :rolleyes:


  • #5
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Thanks Cush ( and Mark)

    I am heartened that 4 out of 10 are already 'aware', I thought it would be half that TBH


  • #6
    Mr McBoatface
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭Mr McBoatface


    almighty1 wrote: »
    Firstly I know that digital is being forced on the good public and that by paying our TV license that we are entitled to a terrestrial service.

    BUT in fairness, the government shouldnt make themselves accountable to assist households when the countries finances are already in a dire state.

    If somebody wants terrestrial then go out and spend €100 on a STB and an aerial. Otherwise its an improved service for free :rolleyes:

    There are social groups of people in this country who don't have €100 to spend on a STB and an aerial, and I'm not referring to newly/recently unemployed or those affected by the economic downturn. Access to DTT services should not come at a cost for those people.

    DTT will be cheaper to broadcast than analogue so any initial expense of funding equipment in the change over should be covered by the government and can be offset against the future cheaper running cost of DTT.

    Outside of the equipment funding some people will need to be shown and re-assured about the use of the new DTT equipment. To be honest from my experience of changing over services for some elderly relatives little training may be required, for them it's a still the case of turning on the TV and STB and selecting the channel they want to watch. Some people with special needs will require extra training , in what form the training comes need to be decided and the cost as above should be covered by the government.


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  • #7
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    I think

    Success of the Switch Over depends on:
    • How good any info campaign is.
    • TVs and Setboxes in shops with Saorview sticker at good price.
    • One free box for anyone on Medical Card (i..e Means tested need).
    • No snags in rollout of 51 DTT sites
    • Successful timely launch and Commission of Kasat to feed some sites, backup feed all sites and DTH Saorsat for 2% to 8% that can't get DTT Soarview.
    • Free dish and cable install for ANYONE outside official DTT reception.

    The cynic view?
    DTT is not primarily about having more free (or Pay) channels via the aerial. It's about the "Digital Dividend". That is Government making money flogging Spectrum and Mobile or other Wireless Voice/Data operators making money selling stuff to public.

    Since this is ultimately to suit Government and Mobile Operators who will both make money from it, it's not like B&W to Colour change over. Apart from "Widescreen" which was largely to sell new TV sets, there is no quality increase on Digital over a GOOD Analogue signal, though it's possible. In fact the Bit Rates will be set to a quality just slightly below a perfect Analogue Picture as a compromise between improving quality and the same. Actually the switch to WideScreen has already reduced the quality of a perfect analogue signal as the Widescreen Digital image is cropped and resampled thus resulting in lower Analogue quality than if source was still 4:3. Widescreen should have been on HD only and then there would have not been degraded 4:3 and double upgrades of TV and broadcast equipement.

    So for everyone with a Widescreen TV, DTT will be a real upgrade in quality, but only because of Widescreen. It will allow over the next year an increase in HD content on Irish TV, via Saorview and Saorsat.

    It will be almost theft from tax payer if the aforementioned compensations at least don't occur as the Government has put almost no funding in DTT rollout and will make Millions in Revenue from "Digital Dividend".


  • #8
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,636 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    markmagennis wrote: »
    Thanks for posting that info Cush, I was busy writing my own post at the time so didn't see it. Also useful to get the link to the previous discussion which I was unaware of and which provides some of the opinion and info I was looking for.

    Mark

    It happens, 5 mins or so between our respective posts. Of course you know what they say about great minds etc. :D
    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Thanks Cush ( and Mark)

    I am heartened that 4 out of 10 are already 'aware', I thought it would be half that TBH

    I too was surprised by that figure, there may be hope for the switchover yet, economics aside.
    jobyrne30 wrote: »
    DTT will be cheaper to broadcast than analogue so any initial expense of funding equipment in the change over should be covered by the government and can be offset against the future cheaper running cost of DTT.

    ...
    Some people with special needs will require extra training , in what form the training comes need to be decided and the cost as above should be covered by the government.

    The money for this could be recovered from the planned sale of the digital dividend (upper UHF band) spectrum. The Minister said in April
    By extrapolating from a recent European study, the value of the digital dividend to Ireland is expected to be between €2 billion and €10 billion, over 15 years. In this regard, it is vital for Ireland’s economic health that this spectrum is released as early as possible.


  • #9
    lucernarian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    I would be very concerned that people who use an aerial everywhere but in the one room where there's a sky/UPC box will not be considered as dependent on aerial reception. I don't think many people will want to start taking out multiroom subscriptions because of ASO. This is particularly true if any study would think that having a freesat/FTA system means that they have digital equipment and therefore "won't" be affected by ASO.


  • #10
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    I think that is why they are doing the survey. They know that having Satellite or Cable doesn't mean no Terrestrial TV.


  • #11
    lucernarian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    The cynical side of me thinks there would be a nice temptation to consider people with some form of digital reception in the main as "covered", while they may not have digital RTÉ available in many or all TVs in house. The same department's attitude to what counts as broadband in the upcoming census or on how it assessed coverage for the NGB scheme is very questionable to me.

    It all depends on what sort of questions the department are willing to ask in this survey. And in the case of low income earners, it would strike me that any who don't have a TV license will shut their doors to such a survey, even if it's nothing to do with An Post.

    Of course, I'm not saying that we should cater for lawbreakers but it is a possibility that results will be skewed by people unwilling to comment on how or if they watch TV. I don't think those on unemployment benefits are entitled to a TV license either but I'm willing to be corrected on that.


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  • #12
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    If a household receives RTE from an aerial on UHF, they will get DTT from that aerial in nearly all cases. (90%). If they get TG4 and TV3, they are getting that on UHF, so they will get DTT in most cases. Also 60% of households will get DTT on a simple aerial (rabbit ears). So not many aerials needed.

    Given that 80% already receive RTE from $ky or NTL, that reduces the problem somewhat. Also, some TVs sold recently are already able to receive DTT.

    If STBs are available for €50 or so, there should be little difficulty for the government to offer some sort of subsidy. For example, reduce the VAT on appropriate boxes would go some way - €50 becomes €40.

    You can classify TVs into four categories.

    1. iDTVs that can get Saorview now. No problem.
    2. TVs with HDMI connectors that will get HD Saorview with a STB. Say €100 each, possibly with recording through USB.
    3. TVs with SCART connectors that will get Saorview with a down-coverter STB. Say €50 each, perhaps more.
    4. TVs without SCART that should be scrapped, or need a STB with a UHF modulator. It is these TVs that are the biggest problem as it is usually the poorest and /or oldest people that will have them. These will need the greatest subsidy, possibly a new TV - say €250, as these TVs generally have small screens.

    The survey needs to determine how many are in the fourth category, and determine a policy that will answer their needs.


  • #13
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    All Downconverting to SCART boxes have HDMI too.

    2 & 3 is same setbox basically, just different connector used.

    4 needs identified as setboxes don't have Modulators anymore. However Off the Shelf SCART to RF Modulators exist at under €70. People may want to keep the TV.


  • #14
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    watty wrote: »
    there is no quality increase on Digital over a GOOD Analogue signal,

    Other than the quality improvement owing to true RGB video ?

    There are also the benefits associated with having a proper EPG

    As for widescreen weve had it for the best part of 20 years now and broadcasters still cant manage to set up 4:3/16;9 signalling properly :rolleyes:


  • #15
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    watty wrote: »
    All Downconverting to SCART boxes have HDMI too.

    2 & 3 is same setbox basically, just different connector used.

    No, there are scart only boxes that plug into the back of the TV that are quite cheap compared to the normal box.


  • #16
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    It's not true RGB, nor does the eye need R, G and B at B&W quality. The colour is sampled at lower bandwidth.

    If you mean avoiding Chroma colour interference in Luma channel and vice versa? Yes the large highly saturated areas won't have fake fine detail and contrasty fine patterns won't create fake colour. So digital does improve that. However a comb filter on PAL is almost as good.

    There are lots of benefits. But these are not compelling in the sense that moving from 405 line B&W to 625 line PAL is.

    You do realise how many people have DVDs and Sky boxes and watch either composite on SCART or RF rather than RGB? :(

    Or how many TVs with multiple SCART that only one has RGB? I agree WS has been introduced badly. That's why I say it should never have been introduced until HDTV became available. On SD a WS picture "full frame" is same number of pixels as 4:3 SD so is actually a drop in horizontal resolution (anamorphic).

    Originally HD was to have "full" non-anamorphic WS, 1920 x 1080 is square pixel. But on Terrestrial and some Satellite there is not the capacity so Anamorphic 1440 x 1080 HD WS is being used. Still that's almost twice the quality of SD WS TV (2x Horizontal and 1.8x vertical). Compared to full 720 x 576, the 1440 x 1080 HD is 1.5x Horizontal (due to black bars at side) and 1.8x vertical.

    Full 1920 x 1080 HD is 2.6x hor, and 1.8x vert of anamorphic SD WS and for 4:3 is 2.0x hor and 1.8x vert.

    No video is originated in 4:3HD, only WS (16:9) but pre 1950s films would be roughly 4:3 (Academy format). Widescreen on Film was partially developed because of the impending threat of TV and TV going colour (Colour TV demo in 1924 and modern NTSC color demo in 1951 with TVs in shops in 1952).

    Conclusions.
    So, yes there are LOTS of advantages to Digital and some to HD, though most people will see no improvement on HD unless they have a very large TV or sit very close.

    But for the majority of people that don't want Freesat, Freeview, UPC or Sky and are content with 3 or 4 channels analogue via aerial they will see Digital as a complication and unwanted extra expense.

    My Dad is almost 80 and copes with recording on the internal HDD on his Virgin Media PVR, and later "saving" to S-VHS. My mum on the other hand panicked when she saw I was using her Sky Digibox to listen to Radio. On her Kitchen TV she can't get back the Freesat box if she accidentally changes channel on the TV instead of Setbox. (Her aerial only picks up BBC1, 2, UTV and C4. She didn't know Five was on her Sky Analogue, she discovered it by channel flicking on the Sky Digital box as it's after C4. Perhaps I don't visit enough!)

    Replacement "boxes" can be awkward for some people. I doubt my Mum could use some models of DAB radio. Her Analogue radio got the tuning knob wiggled till she found Radio Ulster when she bought it (by herself). It would be more than my life is worth to change the station the radio is on, hence my sneaky listen to RTE1 Radio on the Sky box, hoping to put it back to BBC1 TV before she would notice.


  • #17
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    No, there are scart only boxes that plug into the back of the TV that are quite cheap compared to the normal box.

    These don't meet the Saorview Spec. Saorview requires HDMI and SCART. HD downsampling to SCART is required as there is unlikely to be space for SD & HD simulcast of same channel. Any shop that sells an HD tuner with SCART and no HDMI deserves to be in trouble as such a set-box is stupidity.

    MPEG4 SD only won't cut it for Irish DTT. Sagem Picnics are history once the real service starts. Especially when the 2nd PSB Mux starts.

    An HDMI connector and IC adds little cost to any HD Tuner. Can you link to any set-box that can downsample real HD and has no HDMI and isn't obsolete? Component HD is obsolete an was only for USA market really. We are not talking about MPEG4 boxes with no HD tuner/Decoder, those are not an option.


  • #18
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    watty wrote: »
    These don't meet the Saorview Spec. Saorview requires HDMI and SCART. HD downsampling to SCART is required as there is unlikely to be space for SD & HD simulcast of same channel. Any shop that sells an HD tuner with SCART and no HDMI deserves to be in trouble as such a set-box is stupidity.

    MPEG4 SD only won't cut it for Irish DTT. Sagem Picnics are history once the real service starts. Especially when the 2nd PSB Mux starts.

    An HDMI connector and IC adds little cost to any HD Tuner. Can you link to any set-box that can downsample real HD and has no HDMI and isn't obsolete? Component HD is obsolete an was only for USA market really. We are not talking about MPEG4 boxes with no HD tuner/Decoder, those are not an option.

    You are quite correct, but such boxes are possible, and would be much cheaper than a typical STB. All that is needed is a different chipset. That style of device would be a good choice for non-HD TVs that require the lowest possible cost. They should not be dismissed out of hand as they may well have a place for a large number of people with old TVs.


  • #19
    Antenna
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,330 ✭✭✭Antenna


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    No, there are scart only boxes that plug into the back of the TV that are quite cheap compared to the normal box.

    I would suspect the RF performance of such tiny receivers would be very poor, and not work with 'challenging reception - not just weak signal but poor rejection of strong out of band signals - proximity to TETRA and mobile phone base stations would likely be troublesome.


  • #20
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    They should not be dismissed out of hand as they may well have a place for a large number of people with old TVs.

    Yes they should as they are rubbish. Old people or people with old TVs should not be foisted with rubbish. There is in reality not much saving. Usually the "Scart" connector styled receiver has a large unreliable external power block and may foul against a 2nd SCART or other moulding on the TV case as they are larger than a SCART plug.

    I've designed radio gear for over 10 years, the miniature nature and attempt at cost reduction results in a very poor design. Any subsidy, especially for a fully subsidised box should be for a box that properly meets the Saorview / Nordig spec.
    RTÉ Free-to-Air DTT Receiver

    NorDig Unified ver 2.0. equipment requirements

    Minimum Receiver Requirements

    “Approved Digital Terrestrial Television (DTT) Receivers

    RTÉ has appointed Teracom AB to conduct receiver compliance testing for Irish free-to-air (FTA) DTT receivers. Those receivers which pass the tests thereby meeting the Irish DTT specification will be eligible to be licensed to use RTÉ’s “Saorview” logo, which will confirm to consumers that the receiver is Irish FTA DTT compliant. RTÉNL will publish a full list of compliant DTT receivers on its web site.

    Manufacturers/distributors wishing to use the Saorview logo should contact Teracom (irdtest@teracom.se) to arrange testing. When a receiver passes the tests, it will then be eligible to be licensed by RTÉ to carry the Saorview logo.”
    From http://rtenl.ie/dtt.htm

    Minimum Receiver Requirements

    NorDig Unified ver 2.0. equipment requirements

    It's important to note that RTE nor RTENL have not designed or specified a receiver, they have picked a widely used existing specification and appointed an expert organisation to test manufacturer's products to see if they meet it. This is very responsible and proper. We can NOT have the current situation of being unsure or people deciding box Y is Ok because they think they don't need feature B.


  • #21
    lawhec
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,757 ✭✭✭lawhec


    I have for UK Freeview the Bush DFTA1001, a receiver with a moulded SCART plug on the end of it.

    31VSJS8DBKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

    This receiver wasn't around on the market for too long, it got numerous complaints about its reliability. Although I must say that my experience of the product hasn't been bad - its main fault is in its software - it does not handle pin 8 voltage switching for widescreen broadcasts, and unless you're watching on a 16:9 display it can get tiresome adjusting the picture manually. Another problem is that the weakness of the design of SCART means some TV's cannot take the weight of the device, others have sockets too close together for it to fit in, in this case a small SCART extension lead is provided. Power is provided by a wall adaptor, and a "magic eye" is used to provide an IF receiver for the remote control. RF performance isn't too bad, no worse than some other Freeview receivers I've dabbled with. Overall though, OK for a bedroom TV but not one I'd consider for a main television. Some foreign websites have some equivalent MPEG4 type receivers, but since none of them have a HDMI output the cahcnes of meeting the Saorview spec is pretty much nil.

    Some televisions still exist with no SCART sockets, some might have a phono AV in socket which it isn't too difficult to get a SCART to phono convertor, but for those workhorses that only have RF in, Argos have for the UK a TVonics receiver with only an RF out (no SCART!) though the website currently states "Out Of Stock".

    http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/5321375/c_1/1|category_root|Home+entertainment+and+sat+nav|14419512/c_2/3|14419512|Digital+boxes+and+services|14419633/c_3/4|cat_14419633|Freeview+digital+set+top+boxes|14419638.htm

    Otherwise, an analogue RF modulator can be got, they're starting around £19 on eBay that are output adjustable. I have a modulator myself that's fixed on to E36 that I bought from CPC for a few pounds some years ago. Someone with some basic electronic skills might also be able to use an old VCR modulator (one that used a screw to adjust the RF output frequency) to also work, they normally work with a 5V DC supply.


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  • #22
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    I'm familar with that, It's junk.

    A version that would do MPEG4 and HD downsampling and worked decently would be little cost saving on a "proper" setbox with SCART and HDMI.

    Standalone SCART to RF modulators are available. They are now PLL synth tuned, like the ones in a Sky Digibox, as are all the last VHS set Modulators. The free running brass screw tuned type don't work well with most auto scan TVs as they don't easily set to an exact channel. They are obsolete. Probably not made anymore. For RF only input TV sets a standalone SCART Modulator is about €15 in quantiity, or €40 High Street Retail price.

    I have a limited number of ex VHS Modulators (old manual tuned type) for anyone that wants them. Many are 9V rather than 5V though. They have built in RF combiner and RF-In. Power supply and basic soldering skill required.


  • #23
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    watty wrote: »
    I'm familar with that, It's junk.

    A version that would do MPEG4 and HD downsampling and worked decently would be little cost saving on a "proper" setbox with SCART and HDMI.

    Standalone SCART to RF modulators are available. They are now PLL synth tuned, like the ones in a Sky Digibox, as are all the last VHS set Modulators. The free running brass screw tuned type don't work well with most auto scan TVs as they don't easily set to an exact channel. They are obsolete. Probably not made anymore. For RF only input TV sets a standalone SCART Modulator is about €15 in quantiity, or €40 High Street Retail price.

    I have a limited number of ex VHS Modulators (old manual tuned type) for anyone that wants them. Many are 9V rather than 5V though. They have built in RF combiner and RF-In. Power supply and basic soldering skill required.

    I take your point about the scart type box being junk, it is just that it looks like a reasonable solution.

    I would think that by the time a punter has bought a STB that is Saorview certified, bought a modulator, installed it, that a new modern HD iDTV of a similar screen size, it would not be much more and give much more satisfactoin to the user. Low-end MPEG 4 TVs are a little over €200.


  • #24
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I take your point about the scart type box being junk, it is just that it looks like a reasonable solution.

    Awful.... Dont do it. It will take years off you. The cardboard box they come in costs more to make.


  • #25
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    STB wrote: »
    Awful.... Dont do it. It will take years off you. The cardboard box they come in costs more to make.

    :D:D:D:D

    But it looks such a good design to hide the box round the back. I suppose it is too heavy and cannot be done well. That's the rouble with cheap.


  • #26
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Low-end MPEG 4 TVs are a little over €200.
    Hmm... Possibly €184 with built in DVD player.

    I'd expect low end "HD Ready" resolutions with HD MPEG4 tuner at under €150.


  • #27
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    watty wrote: »
    Hmm... Possibly €184 with built in DVD player.

    I'd expect low end "HD Ready" resolutions with HD MPEG4 tuner at under €150.

    That is my point, a new TV for under €200 but stb ~ €100 plus a modulator for whatever the gouger can get, missus. And then the stb plus modultor does not work very well. (Which remote works what?)


  • #28
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    STB + Modulator more likely < €80

    If the TV is so old etc that there is no SCART, it's unlikley it has a remote :)

    My mum is useless at technology. But she knows on her new Kitchen Freeview TV (no DTT where she lives in NI) + new freesat box to ONLY do volume on TV remote and channel change on Freesat box.


  • #29
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,636 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Question from Leo Varadkar in the Dáil this week on public awareness of ASO. Note the Minister's reference to ASO completion by Oct 2012, the first time we have a fairly specific date from an official source other than the media.
    Broadcasting Services

    1576. Deputy Leo Varadkar asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources his plans to commission any research on public knowledge about the analogue TV switch off; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [33192/10]

    Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan): My Department has set up a Digital Switchover Steering Group combining those organisations with key responsibilities for the digital terrestrial television rollout and the analogue switch-off processes. The purpose of the Group is to make the timely decisions needed to keep the analogue switch-off process in Ireland on track for completion by October 2012. The Steering Group, which is to report to the Minister, comprises representatives from my Department, RTÉ, RTÉNL, the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland and ComReg.

    I have recently sought tenders for parties to conduct market research into the different TV reception mechanisms used in Irish households and consider that this research can be used to also identify public knowledge of analogue switch off.

    Also a question on an assistance scheme
    Broadcasting Services

    1580. Deputy Leo Varadkar asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources if he will provide a voucher or discount for low income persons who have to buy a digital box or new TV set to receive Digital Terrestrial Television. [33212/10]

    Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan): My Department has set up a Digital Switchover Steering Group combining those organisations with key responsibilities for the digital terrestrial television rollout and the analogue switch-off processes. The purpose of the Group is to make the timely decisions needed to keep the analogue switch-off process in Ireland on track for completion by October 2012. The Steering Group currently comprises representatives from my Department, RTÉ, RTÉNL, the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland and ComReg.

    No decision has been made on the availability of a subsidy fund for digital receivers. This matter may need to be considered by the Government as the date for analogue switch off in 2012 approaches. In this regard the work of the Steering Group will help inform any such consideration.


  • #30
    jamescc
    Registered Users Posts: 395 ✭✭jamescc


    almighty1 wrote: »
    Firstly I know that digital is being forced on the good public and that by paying our TV license that we are entitled to a terrestrial service.

    BUT in fairness, the government shouldnt make themselves accountable to assist households when the countries finances are already in a dire state.

    If somebody wants terrestrial then go out and spend €100 on a STB and an aerial. Otherwise its an improved service for free :rolleyes:

    i agree with that but i think that the goverement should set a price on boxes , tv's so you can not get ripped off which is what will happen.


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  • #31
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The Government plan on making €20 to €150M selling off TV spectrum.
    They have mandated it.

    They are morally obliged to subsidize the 2% to 7% that can't get DTT with Saorsat and subsidize setbox for those that can't afford.

    Even the USA, not famed for Social Welfare, had a subsidy scheme.


  • #32
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,636 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    jamescc wrote: »
    i agree with that but i think that the goverement should set a price on boxes , tv's so you can not get ripped off which is what will happen.

    That would only happen if the state were to supply the receivers otherwise it's a free market.
    watty wrote: »
    The Government plan on making €20 to €150M selling off TV spectrum.
    They have mandated it.

    Comreg are in a consultation process at the moment on the auction of the released 800 MHz Digital Dividend spectrum and the liberalisation of the expiring licences in the 900 MHz GSM spectrum.

    For the auction they plan to set the minimum price at €25m per 2 x 5 MHz block of spectrum. Six blocks are available in the released tv spectrum, so a minimum of €150m is expected. The licences will run from early 2013 to 2030.


  • #33
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Is there any move on the MMDS licences, they should be up soon, particularly the analogue ones?


  • #34
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Of course total WASTE to split it up at all.
    Should be a single block


  • #35
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,636 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Is there any move on the MMDS licences, they should be up soon, particularly the analogue ones?

    Review completed earlier this year, consultation due soon. Analogue MMDS should have ended a long time ago and 4 channels cleared but in 2003/04 the spectrum use requirement was changed from satellite to terrestrial use so I guess there was no big push to shutdown analogue. Might happen this time if the amount of spectrum allocated to MMDS is reduced.


  • #36
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,636 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    watty wrote: »
    Of course total WASTE to split it up at all.
    Should be a single block

    A single bidder could acquire a maximum 20 of the available 30 MHz Digital Dividend spectrum. Twenty will be maximum available to any bidder in the sub 1 GHz band which will allow a minimum 4 operators access the 800/900 MHz bands. This is to ensure max competition between bidders for the spectrum.


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  • #37
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Warning Rant

    Yes I know, and it's madness. Not how to have good infrastructure. If there was one Wholesale 3G/HSPA (single RAN), and 3, O2, Vodafone and Meteor just retailers the speed on Mobile internet would be x2 to x4 and much narrower spread of speed (i.e. no-one much on more than 5Mbps. but no one much below 0.5 to 1M, rather than many on 0.05 to 1Mbps).

    The Thacherite era belief that a certain number of vendors sharing the pie will be better for the Consumer.
    This is why we have high priced Electricity. To encourage new companies to come in and sell it. The Energy regulator won't let ESB reduce price. They want "Competition" :(


  • #38
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    watty wrote: »
    Warning Rant

    The Energy regulator won't let ESB reduce price. They want "Competition" :(

    I agree entirely. ESB had to raise their prices to enable competition. It is EU policy to privatise as many public services as possible to generate 'competition'.

    Why don't the Government try and sell off a few of the main transmitters to a private company and then we will have competition on DTT and we will have a cheaper, more efficient service.


  • #39
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    We wouldn't. Such a scheme would drive up costs, cause problems and add no more consumer choice at all.

    It doesn't work like that. You would have like eircom's Broadband.

    Also it's a myth that the EU forces sell off. There are many ways to have competition (which isn't supposed to line pockets of Babcock and Brown or O'Brien but help consumer). The Government has done sell offs the way they did as it suits them, not due to EU. They could have split Eircom to Network and Retail and privatised only retail

    Having a SINGLE infrastructure operator as a wholesaler is the efficient way to do it. And providing Commerical companies can re-sell it, it can be private or state owned.

    The point is that Bord Gais reselling ESB is not Competition. It's a regulatory failure that has driven us from one of the more competitive priced Retail Electricity in Europe to nearly the most expensive Retail Electricity in Europe. Bord Gais "Cheaper Electricity" is dearer than the ESB would be selling it if the Regulator was more concerned with real Regulation instead of Fake Competition.


  • #40
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I was actually pointing out the stupidity of the current situation. Why has the government, through its agents tried to foist Paytv on us?

    As for privatisation, I think it is nuts. RTENL, BordGais Networks, ESB Networks, EirGrid, and other such infrastructure offshoots of state agencies should be amalgamated into one unit, and one regulator, and run all the network infrastructure. Maybe they could co-ordinate the holes in the road that appear successively around here, as first one digs up the road, followed a few months later by another.


  • #41
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,636 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Some questions in the Dáil yesterday regarding ASO and the funding of the DSO public information campaign. The Dept is now referring to the 31st Oct date as the start of the "trial service" in advance of the full national launch in 2011.
    Broadcasting Services

    56. Deputy Paul Kehoe asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources if his Department will fund the public information campaign on the switch over to digital terrestrial television; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [37875/10]

    58. Deputy Leo Varadkar asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources when he intends to sign an order to terminate analogue television transmission; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [37866/10]

    63. Deputy Liz McManus asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources the way he intends to proceed with digital terrestrial television here in view of the recent negotiations for the commercial DTT contracts; the way he will ensure that commercial DTT will proceed here by the 2012 deadline; the steps he is taking to ensure a public information campaign on this issue; the way it will be funded; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [37773/10]

    Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan): I propose to take Questions Nos. 56, 58 and 63 together.

    As the Deputy is aware, the BAI’s commercial digital terrestrial television (DTT) process did not lead to the licensing of a commercial DTT operator. This result was disappointing and it is now expected that a commercial DTT operator will not materialise until sometime after analogue switch off in 2012. Further consideration of the potential for a commercial DTT service and of the most appropriate mechanisms for delivering this will not now be undertaken until after analogue switch off.

    In the meantime, the clear responsibility of my Department, in conjunction with the RTÉ, the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland (BAI), ComReg and other stakeholders, is to progress the digital switch-over process so that it meets the 2012 timeline for analogue switch off.

    Accordingly, I imposed, by order, a requirement on RTÉ to make its public service DTT multiplex available to 90% of the population from 31 October 2010.

    This service will be provided by RTÉ as a trial service in advance of the full national launch in 2011. I believe that this RTÉ trial service is essential as it provides time for the DTT service to fully develop whilst also providing for TV viewers to adopt the new service at the earliest opportunity.

    I have also developed a steering group, chaired by my Department and comprising members from RTÉ, BAI, ComReg and other stakeholders, in order to progress the digital switch-over process. An important element of the work of this group will be ensuring that information and advice on digital switch-over is available to TV viewers in a timely and cost-effective manner. I can confirm that the issue of funding for the information campaign for Analogue Switch-off is being considered in this context.

    In accordance with Government policy, it is my intention to provide for the closure of Ireland’s analogue television network by the end of 2012.

    The process for providing for the closure of the analogue television network is covered by Part 8 of the Broadcasting Act 2009 and section 13 of the Communications Regulation Act 2002.

    Section 139 of the Broadcasting Act 2009 deals with the issue of determining how long it would be appropriate for television broadcasting services to continue to be provided by analogue means. In coming to this determination, I am required to keep under review a range of issues, including the availability by digital means of RTÉ, TV3, and TG4.

    I am also required to consider the ownership or possession in the State of equipment capable of receiving those digital services, as well as the likely future extent of availability, ownership or possession.

    For the purposes of triggering the actual analogue switch off, section 13 of the Communications Regulation Act 2002 requires that I must issue a policy direction regarding the date or dates with effect from which ComReg shall revoke the RTÉ, TG4 and TV3 analogue TV licences.

    It is my intention that this will be done once I have fully satisfied myself that the range of issues mentioned earlier have been addressed.

    http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20101020.XML&Node=2526#N2526


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  • #42
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    That sounds like no TV3 to me!


  • #43
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    There was never any likelyhood of TV3 before Mid/End 2011, if not 2012. They won't even pay to be on all the relays.

    This is all much as expected since they brought forward the 2nd Multiplex to now instead of After analogue Shut down.

    I doubt that they will announce full launch date before they have a test signal or "Green Light" from Eutelsat on the Ka-Sat (Launch just before Christmas, maybe, listed as 20th, though mention of 21st Dec 2010). So I'd be surprised if Full Launch date is Announced as exact date before Jan/Feb. It will be be some date between April 2011 and August 2011 unless there is a setback of some nature.


  • #44
    SPDUB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭SPDUB


    An important element of the work of this group will be ensuring that information and advice on digital switch-over is available to TV viewers in a timely and cost-effective manner. I can confirm that the issue of funding for the information campaign for Analogue Switch-off is being considered in this context.

    I see that the Government is still trying to foist the costs of that campaign onto RTE just like they were trying to include Boxer and OneVision in picking up the costs when they were still involved in the process .

    Whoever pays for the information campaign the lack of TV3 will leave them with an interesting challenge since they won't be able to use the simplest message of switch to digital and get all the Irish channels .


  • #45
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    SPDUB wrote: »
    I see that the Government is still trying to foist the costs of that campaign onto RTE just like they were trying to include Boxer and OneVision in picking up the costs when they were still involved in the process .

    Whoever pays for the information campaign the lack of TV3 will leave them with an interesting challenge since they won't be able to use the simplest message of switch to digital and get all the Irish channels .

    I suppose that the longer TV3 stay off DTT, the less of the awareness campaign they will have to pay for, so we will have to wait until the last minute.

    Maybe a little poke from BAI or Comreg might persuade them it is cheaper to pay up than to have to reapply for a TV licence, and perhaps face a contest with other possible channels.


  • #46
    FREETV
    Registered Users Posts: 1,673 ✭✭✭FREETV


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I was actually pointing out the stupidity of the current situation. Why has the government, through its agents tried to foist Paytv on us?

    As for privatisation, I think it is nuts. RTENL, BordGais Networks, ESB Networks, EirGrid, and other such infrastructure offshoots of state agencies should be amalgamated into one unit, and one regulator, and run all the network infrastructure. Maybe they could co-ordinate the holes in the road that appear successively around here, as first one digs up the road, followed a few months later by another.
    It is because of greed, money, power, incompetence, corruption and stupidity. :(


  • #47
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    FREETV wrote: »
    It is because of greed, money, power, incompetence, corruption and stupidity. :(

    You should not bring politicians into this. They are all of those things, but there is more to blame.

    Every decision made by these guys tends to be the worst possible choice. For example, if the RTE based consortium had been chosen for DTT, it would have happened. If the time line for paytv had been set by the government, Boxer would have got off the pot earlier, onevision likewise. As part of the paytv scene, MMDS should have been closed down. $ky should be regulated here, at least so they pay the VAT over to our government. The sale of non-complying TV sets should have been regulated as was done by the French. Regulation ... just do not get me started.....

    Rant, rant, rant. I could go on.


  • #48
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    No. RTE/Global Liberty would not have launched. It was only to be seen to take process seriously that they put a bid. They did decline in the end.

    If a time limit had been set we would just be where we are now in Jan 2009. Still no Pay DTT. The Government wanted payTV. That's why no rollout between 1999 and 2009.

    Sky can't really be regulated here. In fact if Ofcom tried to regulate better Sky would have base elsewhere. Like Scandinavian Sat Stations "based" in UK!

    The TV sets should be regulated. If they have any sense that should happen before February / March.


  • #49
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    watty wrote: »
    No. RTE/Global Liberty would not have launched. It was only to be seen to take process seriously that they put a bid. They did decline in the end.

    Well, by the time EasyTV were offered it, the group had long since folded their tent. If they got it first, it would have happened.

    Because Boxer got the gig, we have our spec written for Nordig standards. If RTE had been involved, the spec may well have been closer to the FreeviewHD spec, which may have been a good or bad thing, I do not know.

    But that is all just pointless speculation, because, with Freesat launched, most of the PayTV content became FTA for the whole of Ireland. The only future for paytv would be sport based content, currently controlled by $ky. It will be interesting how long it will take for ordinary Joe to find out that he can get FTA with his $ky box by cancelling his sub, and Freesat by just plugging in a Freesat box. No one is pushing that particular wagon.


  • #50
    FREETV
    Registered Users Posts: 1,673 ✭✭✭FREETV


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    You should not bring politicians into this. They are all of those things, but there is more to blame.

    Every decision made by these guys tends to be the worst possible choice. For example, if the RTE based consortium had been chosen for DTT, it would have happened. If the time line for paytv had been set by the government, Boxer would have got off the pot earlier, onevision likewise. As part of the paytv scene, MMDS should have been closed down. $ky should be regulated here, at least so they pay the VAT over to our government. The sale of non-complying TV sets should have been regulated as was done by the French. Regulation ... just do not get me started.....

    Rant, rant, rant. I could go on.
    Hear hear, pity that there aren't more people who are outspoken and express their views like you in the country. The expression stand up and be counted springs to mind. The way things are done in general in this country is a total disgrace and DTT being the topic is one of them. We should have had twenty free to air tv stations by the end of 2012 and not about ten. It is a joke. Freeview in the UK have almost one hundred stations albeit lots of crappy shopping and very soft adult channels bringing up the total. :mad:


  • #51
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The UK has the EXTRA indigenous TV channels. We don't. The extra content can only be subscripton. That can't compete with FREE satellite, never mind the fact that it can't compete with Sky / UPC.

    Having more than what is promised currently (free) was always a fantasy. Anyone that does extra as PayTV will go bust.


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