Analogue Switchoff - Public Awareness & Help Scheme

Peter Rhea

Sam Russell wrote: »

RTE should plan to turn off the main transmitters first, so that the panic will be dealt with in the higher populated areas first. Then schedule the smaller relays over coming months.

If these relays are fed off-air, they won't fare so well without their parent transmitters.

Sam Russell

Peter Rhea wrote: »

If these relays are fed off-air, they won't fare so well without their parent transmitters.

True, but I think they are fed by fibre.

rlogue

Sam Russell wrote: »

RTE should plan to turn off the main transmitters first, so that the panic will be dealt with in the higher populated areas first. Then schedule the smaller relays over coming months. Maybe start with 3Rock, as many people served by it are on UPC and Sky.

Nobody beleives these things until they have already happened.

The ASO plan for Northern Ireland was at the time I worked at BBC Technology based on the switch off of all NI analogue transmitters on the same day. I would now expect all ROI and NI analogue transmitters to be switched off on the 24th October 2012, not in dribs and drabs.

Peter Rhea

Sam Russell wrote: »

True, but I think they are fed by fibre.

I suppose any that aren't primarily dependent on another site's broadcasts should be referred to as 'secondary' or 'fill-in' (or just 'smaller') rather than 'relay' transmitters .

Antenna

Peter Rhea wrote: »

If these relays are fed off-air, they won't fare so well without their parent transmitters.

It would be just a matter of modulating these analogue relays from either satellite or Saorview receivers
.
This was already done at many analogue relays in the past couple of years during works at Mullaghanish etc - many relays relayed RTE1/2/Tg4 from Sky during times of outages/low power from the parent transmitter

The Cush

tui0hcg wrote: »

Heard a report this morning on RTE radio where the reporter said that the analogue switch off date was announced for 24th Oct 2012 and he then went on to state that if you want to continue receiving RTE TV and Irish channels you need to sign up to a paid TV service such as Sky or UPC. He finally advised that you could purchase some ‘equipment’ to enable you to receive Saorview through an aerial
Beggars belief that RTE is not trying to push people into getting sorted with regular FTA rather than advising they pay Sky and UPC for the Irish channels. Or does it mean that they will get paid more by Sky and UPC if there are more people on those platforms and hence RTE don’t have to spend as much maintaining the regular FTA

The analogue switchoff information campaign is being run and paid for by the Dept of Communications and not by RTÉ. Because state funds are being used to pay for the campaign the information cannot be biased towards any one platform and must provide information on all alternative platforms. The consumer then makes the final decision on which platform they decide to use be it FTA or pay.

The spending of state funds is governed by European competition law and there have been cases in the courts in relation to state subsidies for DTT.

Sky have previously commented on this in a Dept of Communications consultation, see my post here - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74531150&postcount=68

The Cush

Enda Murphy wrote: »

I have a very bad feeling about this, I think on the morning of 25/10/12 thousands of older and simpler folks will be left with a blank screen.

The blank screens will be on the 24th, switchover to date in the UK starts just after midnight on the published date. Shouldn't be any different here.

glineli

Disappointing to hear the minister when asked about a STB this morning by Ivan Yates on NewsTalk, does the STB give you RTE, BBC, UTV etc, he replied yes.

The Cush

rlogue wrote: »

The ASO plan for Northern Ireland was at the time I worked at BBC Technology based on the switch off of all NI analogue transmitters on the same day. I would now expect all ROI and NI analogue transmitters to be switched off on the 24th October 2012, not in dribs and drabs.

I agree, they'll all go together. This would avoid any conflicts or interference and allow all transmitters to adopt their final channels and powers.

Denis Wolinski, the now DigitalUK NI Switchover Manager and the then head of Ofcom NI, said in a 2009 House of Commons committee discussion on television broadcasting in NI that switchover in NI would probably take place on 1 day.

The same is happening with the recently announced Tyne Tees region DSO dates, all 3 main transmitters and their relays will switchover on the same day.

The Cush

glineli wrote: »

Disappointing to hear the minister when asked about a STB this morning by Ivan Yates on NewsTalk, does the STB give you RTE, BBC, UTV etc, he replied yes.

Asking a Minister who lives in an urban area, whose family are probably Sky or UPC subscribers a specific technical question like that and receiving that answer doesn't surprise or disappoint me. That's not his job.

I've heard similar or worse answers from so called technical experts/journalists on the airwaves over the last few years.

ardmacha

The analogue switchoff information campaign is being run and paid for by the Dept of Communications and not by RTÉ. Because state funds are being used to pay for the campaign the information cannot be biased towards any one platform and must provide information on all alternative platforms. The consumer then makes the final decision on which platform they decide to use be it FTA or pay.

This policy is nonsense. This is a technical change. The message should simply be the technical one that analogue is being turned off and that you need either a converter or a new TV to get the replacement digital signal. Talk of platforms and pay services is simply confusing the issue and is a waste of public money.

There may be some complications in a small number of local areas, but the simple national message should be that you need a converter or modern TV and the local areas should be dealt with by local media and direct campaigns.

The Cush

ardmacha wrote: »

This policy is nonsense. This is a technical change. The message should simply be the technical one that analogue is being turned off and that you need either a converter or a new TV to get the replacement digital signal. Talk of platforms and pay services is simply confusing the issue and is a waste of public money.

The law can be an ass.

John mac

he's on the Last word this evening..

Donahg

John mac wrote: »

he's on the Last word this evening..

He didnt know his arse from his fingers, He could not answer when Matt cooper asked him why analogue has to be switched off

Antenna

ardmacha wrote: »

This policy is nonsense. This is a technical change. The message should simply be the technical one that analogue is being turned off and that you need either a converter or a new TV to get the replacement digital signal. Talk of platforms and pay services is simply confusing the issue and is a waste of public money.

But you could then have confusion with viewers of analogue cable. Most cable homes in Dublin would have analogue cable on at least one of their TVs. So you have to emphasize this relates to terrestrial platform. They (cable viewers using analogue) do not have to spend money on an alternative for the time being.

lawhec

Switch off in the Republic on one day is definitely doable, but it will not be without at least some headaches as there will be someone at least who will wonder where the heck their three or four channels have gone! RTÉNL has an advantage over its northern brethren in that its digital broadcasts are already on high powers and transmitting from all planned sites right now - other than some modest post-DSO power increases all that will have to be done at the relevant sites is flick the switches off (though there may be some scope for frequency rearrangement). North of the border will be seeing flash-cuts, retuning, power increases, first time DVB-T reception all happening fairly quickly.

icdg

Donahg wrote: »

He didnt know his arse from his fingers, He could not answer when Matt cooper asked him why analogue has to be switched off

No one can answer that really. If we were going to do something with the spectrum then all well and good, but I cannot imagine that a spectrum auction will raise a lot of money in the middle of a recession. There isn't a whole pile of benefits to viewers either given the very slim service that's been offered on Saorview, really just one new channel (3e) and three more almost wholly comprised of simulcasts and same-day repeats.

Again the promise and the benefits of DTT won't be realised in the jurisdiction because of the way its been handled over the past thirteen years since the NERA/Smith report that recommended its introduction. We are getting a DTT platform that is a pale shadow of what it could have been and what other countries in Europe are getting.

Anyways, decision's been taken now and we're going with it. Goingdigital.ie is rather garish and isn't the best laid out website, although it is platform neutral which helps. I think 12 months is too short for the scale of the task up ahead, the UK took thirteen years to transition to digital, I'm not sure takeup of Saorview in that short a team is realistic.

Cantona's Collars

One good point was made during the interview on The Last Word,the minister stated that the GAA was brought on board and local clubs were going to be part of the info campaign which is a good idea seeing as GAA clubs tend to be focal points in many communities.Getting people together and explaining Saorview in plain simple language can only be a good thing.

The Cush

Govt to provide no funding for people to switch to digital TV
Friday, October 14, 2011 - 02:42 PM

There will be no extra funding provided for people making the switch to digital TV.

The Communications Minister Pat Rabbitte announced the switch from analogue to Saorview will happen on October 24, 2012.

People who do not already pay for their TV services through Sky or UPC for example will need to get a Saorview box for a once-off fee.

The Department of Communications has teamed up with voluntary organisations to help isolated and vulnerable people to make the switch.


Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/govt-to-provide-no-funding-for-people-to-switch-to-digital-tv-524442.html#ixzz1anKF6e46

The above article from the Irish Examiner online indicates there will no funding to assist people to switchover to digital, presumably referring to the general public. The Minister indicated last month that an assistance scheme would be put in place for vulnerable households .

In conjunction with this, my Department is currently working to address the particular information and assistance needs of vulnerable households as they prepare to go digital. In this context, the expertise and local knowledge of the many voluntary and charity organisations around the country could be of critical importance in ensuring the success of the switchover process. I have asked my Department to ensure that, to the greatest possible extent, these organisations play a major part in our information and assistance campaign.

Mayo Exile

Will UHF retransmission/deflector sites that provide reception of UK channels also have to cease transmission on 24 October 2012? Following on from this, will current legislation that allows no renewal of deflector licenses after 31 December 2012 be amended to comply with the new ASO date?

The Cush

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Will UHF retransmission/deflector sites that provide reception of UK channels also have to cease transmission on 24 October 2012? Following on from this, will current legislation that allows no renewal of deflector licenses after 31 December 2012 be amended to comply with the new ASO date?

Wouldn't think so to both.

Provided there is no interference to DTT services they should be able to continue until their licences expire at the end of Dec 2012. There could have been a problem if we had 6 muxes in operation.

Mayo Exile

The Cush wrote: »

Wouldn't think so to both.

Provided there is no interference to DTT services they should be able to continue until their licences expire at the end of Dec 2012. There could have been a problem if we had 6 muxes in operation.

Interesting anomaly though. Analogue output from RTENL sites will end before similar transmissions from sites deemed to be illegal for many years of their existence!

Kristopherus

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Interesting anomaly though. Analogue output from RTENL sites will end before similar transmissions from sites deemed to be illegal for many years of their existence!

But then, this is Ireland.:rolleyes:

byte

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Will UHF retransmission/deflector sites that provide reception of UK channels also have to cease transmission on 24 October 2012? Following on from this, will current legislation that allows no renewal of deflector licenses after 31 December 2012 be amended to comply with the new ASO date?

Dunno if they'd have to, but I'd imagine many will. Otherwise, those in charge will have to add STB's and modulators to accomodate for the straight off-air analogue signals being gone (make no difference to those who may use satellite as source signals I suppose, though I wouldn't call those deflectors as such). Doubtful for many I'd imagine to do that, what with Freesat and FTA satellite services able to fill the void.

Irish Steve

Just been browsing the thread, and what's been very conspicuous by it's total absence from the discussion is the problem that will be faced by people in places like Ashbourne (and many other towns around the Leinster area) that have an old, out of the ark stone age VHF based repeater cable system that is operated by UPC, having been inherited from Chorus, who over time and history took it over from what was (I think) Ashbourne Relays (or similar companies) that set up a cable repeater system for their town or area based on a very well placed aerial that could get an acceptable UK signal from Wales or Northern Ireland).

The Ashbourne service has been in place for over 20 years, and hasn't changed significantly other than to add a few extra channels in that time, and at this stage, that is part of the problem, in that replacing the existing network with Fibre to enable the roll out of a new style UPC type service with broadband, phone and all the other things that technically are now possible is in no way going to happen in time for the switch off of analog, and I've seen no plans or proposals from UPC that even hint at the possible replacement of their cable systems, they are being ignored as far as any investment is concerned, the only area that seems to be getting any upgrading is the old NTL (Cablelink) system in Dublin.
.

At this stage the local service is a dire service, very unreliable, and if the truth be known I suspect that a significant number of it's users have migrated long since to Sky through desperation at the failure of UPC to do anything about the poor quality and lack of future development potential. What makes it worse is that it's in total contrast to the fibre upgrade that's happening in Dublin, which seems to be way better than anything on offer from competitive suppliers.

There are several issues. The first is that I've seen nothing whatsover from UPC in the press or local media to tell users of this dire system that it's future is at risk, the present system uses VHF band signals to redistribute about 15 channels, some of which now arrive in Ashbourne via the UPC MMDS link, and some of which are captured at the local head end from Sky.

From experience, (Very short due to how bad it was) a modern HDMI capable TV, even with a VHF tuner, has huge problems with the system, partly because the band tuning is not as tight as it should be, so modern tuners don't find them, partly because UPC use some channels that are outside the recognised Cable band, and partly because they have a strange scrambling system for Sky sports that puts spurious harmonics all over the band. Things like reliable teletext, wide screen, Dolby Digital sound and HD are but a dream. There are other issues, like tuners that drop off channel on a regular basis, and all sorts of other issues, some of which are caused by illegal taps into the network.

The main concern I would have is that nothing has been said anywhere about the choices that these cable users will have in less than 12 months. Things like video recorders are not going to work with DTT, but many people in this area don't have HDD recorders because they don't work reliably with cable. In a lot of cases, they don't have an external aerial of any sort, and on apartment blocks, that IS going to be a significant issue.

Even a sky box can be a problem, in that the pass through VHF modulator is not designed to work with cable, so many of the UPC channels are badly affected quality wise if they are passed through a Sky box. I suspect that the same issue may arise with Saorview boxes if they even have a pass through modulator on them.

All in all, it's a (typical) Irish mess, and one that seems to have been quietly ignored, as to make too much noise about it at this stage might upset the cosy cartels that have these things under control. For sure, Sky have made a fortune in this area by aggressively selling their packages door to door, and it has been noticable that they have been very active in recent times around here, probably because they know that UPC have lost the plot locally.

Even the few Saorview adverts I've seen, and the brief piece on the late news a few minutes ago are not making any mention of what people in places like Ashbourne are supposed to do, and I would be concerned that a lot of people will get royally ripped off because they will be told "you need a really good aerial to get Saorview, that's why cable was originally put in", and if the advertising does not make it clear that these claims are total rubbish, there is a strong chance that these sorts of claims will not be challenged for the rubbish that they are, the signal from 3 Rock is very strong here, so no high masts or multiple aerial arrays as were seen in the bad old days are needed, but because a few are still around, there will be people out there that will try to make a fast buck out of misinformation.

So, what does the future hold for UPC users in places like Ashbourne. Time will tell. For sure it will be messy, if only because there are no local companies that are involved with Aerials and the like, and because of the lack of clear and specific information about the implications of the changes.

Steve

Peter Rhea

Irish Steve wrote: »

. . . because of the lack of clear and specific information about the implications of the changes.

The 'changes' are in the terrestrial broadcast network, what exactly are you getting at here with respect to this cable system?

Its inadequacies are nothing to do with RTENL/Saorview.

Solair

With the correct antennae setup, one would assume that a MPEG2/4 (i.e. FreeView HD) box should be able to pick up SaorView and FreeView in border areas in much the same way as a PAL TV could pick up the 4 Irish and 5 UK channels?

Worst case scenario people in these areas might need two boxes, but with a bit of clever antenna / filtering setup you should be able to combine the two feeds get all the MUXes through the same device, assuming they don't overlap frequencies.

From what I gather the FreeView signal is likely to be easier to pick up when transmitters are at full power after the PAL switch off in 2012 in NI.

Or, am I missing something?

The Cush

The reason for no discussion regarding analogue cable on this thread is because this is a discussion on terrestrial analogue switchoff via the aerial and private commercial analogue cable systems are not directly affected by ASO.

Cable systems are run by private commercial companies who are not affected by the ITU requirement to switchoff terrestrial analogue services by mid June 2015.

There is nothing preventing cable subscribers going the Saorview/Freesat route now or at terrestrial ASO if there're not happy with their provider's service. Ashbourne appears to have OK Saorview coverage according to the coverage checker.

Maybe your concerns have been discussed over in the cable forum.

UPC are the only people that can resolve your problems.

Solair

I think there's going to be a LOT of confusion, particularly amongst elderly people. I already know someone who was complaining because she plugged a SaorView box which she purchased into the "ariel" which turned out to be a UPC connection.

She didn't know what UPC or "cable" was and just pays X per year for her "piped television".

It's those people who are going to be rather befuddled by the whole thing.

Maybe Age Action Ireland or someone like that should seek volunteers to help older folk figure it all out?
It'd be a shame to see people lose their TV service entirely due to a minor technical change.

The Cush

Solair wrote: »

I think there's going to be a LOT of confusion, particularly amongst elderly people. I already know someone who was complaining because she plugged a SaorView box which she purchased into the "ariel" which turned out to be a UPC connection

into the "ariel", that's one confused person alright.

Sorry, couldn't resist