How long before Irish reunification?

downcow · 07-03-2020 10:57pm

Runaways wrote: »

The DUPs complete pivot has me wondering.

They’re now trying to sell the original backstop as the best deal *they* engineered for NI (they didn’t at all. We all know this).

They’ve been completely fvcked over by Johnson and they know it.

So when will voters in NI realise this? And or why do they still support them?

Have they even realized?

The latest inside politics podcast from the Irish times is fascinating and bizarre on this but I’d love to know.

Downcow will you still support that party despite them ruining ‘your wee country’ and lying to you so blatantly?

I think I’ve been clear I have never had much time for the dup. The uup is my natural home. I have voted dup (and indeed SDLP) on occasion to keep sf out
And yes I will do again if necessary

Junkyard Tom · 07-03-2020 11:21pm

30-40 years

downcow wrote: »

Tom it really is quite sad how you despise my community and the very existence of NI.

Nah, I don't despise your community at all, NI is a part of my nation so why would I despise it? NI is a failed statelet though, if it was its own country (which it certainly isn't) it would rank 44th on the UN Human Development Index alongside some pretty grim places.

Is there an International border between roi and ni which is recognised by all members of the United Nations including Ireland??

Currently and unfortunately yes, but Ireland recognises it inasmuch as it wants to get rid of it - it's in our constitution.

It is the firm will of the Irish Nation .... to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland ... recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means ..

You really do have some significant issues going on

Cool, someone who dresses up for half the summer and marches around celebrating religious wars from three centuries ago thinks I have issues.

downcow · 07-03-2020 11:37pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Nah, I don't despise your community at all, NI is a part of my nation so why would I despise it? NI is a failed statelet though, if it was its own country (which it certainly isn't) it would rank 44th on the UN Human Development Index alongside some pretty grim places.

Currently and unfortunately yes, but Ireland recognises it inasmuch as it wants to get rid of it - it's in our constitution.

It is the firm will of the Irish Nation .... to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland ... recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means ..

It is the firm will of the Irish Nation .... to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland ... recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means .

Read again the wording above. I completely agree with it and there is absolutely nothing in it that suggests an aspiration to creating one country
We do not have to create one country to achieve the uniting of the people on the island. Indeed the gfa almost does it.
Your political leaders avoided saying the wanted to create one state as they know it’s not happening

Junkyard Tom · 08-03-2020 12:00am

30-40 years

downcow wrote: »

We do not have to create one country to achieve the uniting of the people on the island.

There is no 'we'. There are those of us who want to put an end to partition and then there are those who want to stop us like you. That's how people will divide on the issue when the times comes.

As far as I'm concerned you've lost the argument and we're just counting down the clock. You had 100 years to treat the minority with some respect and your politicians are still mocking the Irish language like a bunch of dimwits.

Granadino · 08-03-2020 2:31am

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

downcow wrote: »

You are just so away from understanding our community.

Enlighten me ?

Runaways · 08-03-2020 10:15am

10-15 years

Of course you weren’t aware love. Sure.

https://twitter.com/brendanhughes64/status/1236258559580569601?s=21

downcow · 08-03-2020 11:22am

I really do wonder in dismay. I appreciate challenge as an opportunity to learn but the lies, exaggerations directed at my community on here, along with taking isolated disgraceful incidents and trying to suggest that they are the norm is just to say they least unhelpful to every one and certainly divisive.
I do wonder is the sf propaganda so good that people actually believe what they are saying or is it just straightforward lying.
I am going to try again in the hope that it’s not lying and that people are open to the truth.
Just a few points.
The OO is of course sectarian in its very reason to exist (as our many churches and organisations) I wish it wasn’t but it’s reason for being created was to defend the Protestant faith in Ireland. So I don’t see that changing. But what is changing is that the scene is evolving. the OO is finding it more difficult to attract new members (I believe because of its religious stance and its pomp and ceremonies etc - churches are finding the same issue). The loyalist band scene is booming and replacing it. Young people seem connected to it in a similar way as American football in the states or dare I say gaa in Ireland.
So keeping pointing to incidents involving the OO last century is just misleading and pathetic.
Making statements on here implying that loyalist bands are parading through nationalist estates is just lies.
Implying that somehow loyalist terrorists were sectarian scumbags and republican terrorists were honourable equality seeking individuals is just bull.
Not recognising that there is an international border between ni and roi is just burying your head in the sand.
Trying to paint me as some extreme loyalist is just a pathetic attempt to shot the messenger. I have never belonged to any loyal orders or bands of any sort. I voted yes to the gfa. I can’t stand much about the dup and am a uup supporter. I Fully support equal marriage. I have complained to uefa about my beloved NI team to try and get gstq stopped playing at matches as I feel sick to my stomach when a tiny number of ‘fans’ shout no surrender in the middle of it - Sorry to bore you with my personal stuff but some posters on here continue to try and place me as a rampant DUPer.
My community up here has transformed but some don’t like it as they want to paint it as somehow more sectarian and bigoted than the local Irish community

downcow · 08-03-2020 11:26am

Runaways wrote: »

Of course you weren’t aware love. Sure.

https://twitter.com/brendanhughes64/status/1236258559580569601?s=21

I completely condemn the burning of Irish flags on bonfires, disgusting and I dont know if the apology is genuine We have lots of sf councillors up here who murdered people but won’t say they are sorry. Get it in perspective

Runaways · 08-03-2020 11:56am

10-15 years

downcow wrote: »

I completely condemn the burning of Irish flags on bonfires, disgusting and I dont know if the apology is genuine We have lots of sf councillors up here who murdered people but won’t say they are sorry. Get it in perspective

Perspective?

You’re offended by signs with Irish on them.

You’re in no position to talk about perspective tbh

Granadino · 08-03-2020 1:03pm

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

downcow wrote: »

I really do wonder in dismay. I appreciate challenge as an opportunity to learn but the lies, exaggerations directed at my community on here, along with taking isolated disgraceful incidents and trying to suggest that they are the norm is just to say they least unhelpful to every one and certainly divisive.
I do wonder is the sf propaganda so good that people actually believe what they are saying or is it just straightforward lying.
I am going to try again in the hope that it’s not lying and that people are open to the truth.
Just a few points.
The OO is of course sectarian in its very reason to exist (as our many churches and organisations) I wish it wasn’t but it’s reason for being created was to defend the Protestant faith in Ireland. So I don’t see that changing. But what is changing is that the scene is evolving. the OO is finding it more difficult to attract new members (I believe because of its religious stance and its pomp and ceremonies etc - churches are finding the same issue). The loyalist band scene is booming and replacing it. Young people seem connected to it in a similar way as American football in the states or dare I say gaa in Ireland.
So keeping pointing to incidents involving the OO last century is just misleading and pathetic.
Making statements on here implying that loyalist bands are parading through nationalist estates is just lies.
Implying that somehow loyalist terrorists were sectarian scumbags and republican terrorists were honourable equality seeking individuals is just bull.
Not recognising that there is an international border between ni and roi is just burying your head in the sand.
Trying to paint me as some extreme loyalist is just a pathetic attempt to shot the messenger. I have never belonged to any loyal orders or bands of any sort. I voted yes to the gfa. I can’t stand much about the dup and am a uup supporter. I Fully support equal marriage. I have complained to uefa about my beloved NI team to try and get gstq stopped playing at matches as I feel sick to my stomach when a tiny number of ‘fans’ shout no surrender in the middle of it - Sorry to bore you with my personal stuff but some posters on here continue to try and place me as a rampant DUPer.
My community up here has transformed but some don’t like it as they want to paint it as somehow more sectarian and bigoted than the local Irish community

Could I consider you as a “liberal unionist”? Would you consider yourself as British or as Irish and British ? (Or British Irish etc).
This is hypothetical but if there was a United ireland in 50 years or whenever, how do you think the unionist/loyalist community would fare out? Do you think the more hardline folk would move across the water?
Let’s say a generation or two passed in a United ireland. Do you think the OO would still be around or would the bands morph into something similar to pipe bands you’d see on Paddy’s day?
In theory a person could still hold a British passport only perhaps in a United ireland but I wonder how Britishness would be celebrated or again would it be less so a few generations in? All hypothetical I know.
Let’s say London decided tomorrow it was going to look at incorporating the six counties back into the RoI and they said that unionists had no choice but to get involved in a forum on the possible outcomes?

FrancieBrady · 08-03-2020 2:05pm

downcow wrote: »

I really do wonder in dismay. I appreciate challenge as an opportunity to learn but the lies, exaggerations directed at my community on here, along with taking isolated disgraceful incidents and trying to suggest that they are the norm is just to say they least unhelpful to every one and certainly divisive.
I do wonder is the sf propaganda so good that people actually believe what they are saying or is it just straightforward lying.
I am going to try again in the hope that it’s not lying and that people are open to the truth.
Just a few points.
The OO is of course sectarian in its very reason to exist (as our many churches and organisations) I wish it wasn’t but it’s reason for being created was to defend the Protestant faith in Ireland. So I don’t see that changing. But what is changing is that the scene is evolving. the OO is finding it more difficult to attract new members (I believe because of its religious stance and its pomp and ceremonies etc - churches are finding the same issue). The loyalist band scene is booming and replacing it. Young people seem connected to it in a similar way as American football in the states or dare I say gaa in Ireland.
So keeping pointing to incidents involving the OO last century is just misleading and pathetic.
Making statements on here implying that loyalist bands are parading through nationalist estates is just lies.
Implying that somehow loyalist terrorists were sectarian scumbags and republican terrorists were honourable equality seeking individuals is just bull.
Not recognising that there is an international border between ni and roi is just burying your head in the sand.
Trying to paint me as some extreme loyalist is just a pathetic attempt to shot the messenger. I have never belonged to any loyal orders or bands of any sort. I voted yes to the gfa. I can’t stand much about the dup and am a uup supporter. I Fully support equal marriage. I have complained to uefa about my beloved NI team to try and get gstq stopped playing at matches as I feel sick to my stomach when a tiny number of ‘fans’ shout no surrender in the middle of it - Sorry to bore you with my personal stuff but some posters on here continue to try and place me as a rampant DUPer.
My community up here has transformed but some don’t like it as they want to paint it as somehow more sectarian and bigoted than the local Irish community

You keep protesting that you are a democrat and more a UUP man than a DUP one. Yet all of your opinions have been revealed as being as beligerent as those of the DUP.

Most recently - you see a roadsign as a threat to you and your 'culture'. TO any criticism the reply is usually 'look at themun's, nothing but a bunch of murderer'

Come on downcow, let's quit the pretence.

08-03-2020 3:00pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You keep protesting that you are a democrat and more a UUP man than a DUP one. Yet all of your opinions have been revealed as being as beligerent as those of the DUP.

Most recently - you see a roadsign as a threat to you and your 'culture'. TO any criticism the reply is usually 'look at themun's, nothing but a bunch of murderer'

Come on downcow, let's quit the pretence.

I think you're being unfair Francie, I am actually enjoying DCs posts, he comes across as quite well aware & open about his community.

FrancieBrady · 08-03-2020 3:03pm

bubblypop wrote: »

I think you're being unfair Francie, I am actually enjoying DCs posts, he comes across as quite well aware & open about his community.

Nothing 'unfair' about my impressions. I am being quite open about them and have not founded them on anything he 'hasn't' said.

Runaways · 08-03-2020 3:58pm

10-15 years

bubblypop wrote: »

I think you're being unfair Francie, I am actually enjoying DCs posts, he comes across as quite well aware & open about his community.

And demonstrates a completely impenetrable refusal to even try to engage with the other community. His neighbors and in his own words his countrymen.

Figure that out

RobMc59 · 08-03-2020 4:01pm

10-15 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nothing 'unfair' about my impressions. I am being quite open about them and have not founded them on anything he 'hasn't' said.

Yes,you'd also say SF and whatever their associates the IRA are calling themselves these days are a great bunch of lads,just misunderstood which is why most posters (apart from fanbhoys)disagree with you.

Runaways · 08-03-2020 4:06pm

10-15 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

Yes,you'd also say SF and whatever their associates the IRA are calling themselves these days are a great bunch of lads,just misunderstood which is why most posters (apart from fanbhoys)disagree with you.

Attacking someone rather than debating their point doesn’t really help your cause rob.
In fact it makes you look bad.

RobMc59 · 08-03-2020 4:12pm

10-15 years

Runaways wrote: »

Attacking someone rather than debating their point doesn’t really help your cause rob.
In fact it makes you look bad.

Says the person who dismissed DC as a token Unionist and me as a pretend British blow in...pot and kettle spring to mind.

downcow · 08-03-2020 5:25pm

Granadino wrote: »

Could I consider you as a “liberal unionist”? Would you consider yourself as British or as Irish and British ? (Or British Irish etc).
This is hypothetical but if there was a United ireland in 50 years or whenever, how do you think the unionist/loyalist community would fare out? Do you think the more hardline folk would move across the water?
Let’s say a generation or two passed in a United ireland. Do you think the OO would still be around or would the bands morph into something similar to pipe bands you’d see on Paddy’s day?
In theory a person could still hold a British passport only perhaps in a United ireland but I wonder how Britishness would be celebrated or again would it be less so a few generations in? All hypothetical I know.
Let’s say London decided tomorrow it was going to look at incorporating the six counties back into the RoI and they said that unionists had no choice but to get involved in a forum on the possible outcomes?

I don’t feel Irish but am not offended if people refer to me as Irish in good faith. I am very strongly northern Irish, and yes of course my nationality is British and I feel very British during remembrance, Olympic Games etc. But when it is NI specific ie football I just love beating England almost as much I love beating ROI
As to a UI. I guess it would be a great sense of loss. For me not so much the loss of the uk but the loss of NI. I am probably in a small minority of unionists who would give serious consideration to a UI that operates like UK ie I don’t lose my country.
I absolutely will never be cooperating with any agreement that results in NI not existing. I would try hard to remain completely peaceful in that scenario but I am honestly not sure I could. Could you, if UK took over roi again??
I am sure each generation (nationalist and unionist) is getting more open to options their parents would not have considered. So I could see a UI settling down in a couple of generations. I really couldn’t even guess how many would leave. Don’t know what I would do myself.

Could I ask you the same question.
Let’s say dublin decided tomorrow to announce UI was no longer an option or objective and they said that nationalists had no choice but to get involved in a forum on how roi should cooperate with a uk which would include NI forever?

Runaways · 08-03-2020 5:51pm

10-15 years

RobMc59 wrote: »

Says the person who dismissed DC as a token Unionist and me as a pretend British blow in...pot and kettle spring to mind.

I didn’t say you were a pretend british. You clearly are british. As evidenced by your poorly informed input. Downcow is a special case in that he seems to be the sole unionist in all of Northern Ireland that posts here or just a blanch offshoot account that needs to run riot now and then.

Be under no illusions, you’re definitely british I feel sad having to remind you I believe that.

FrancieBrady · 08-03-2020 5:52pm

downcow wrote: »

I don’t feel Irish but am not offended if people refer to me as Irish in good faith. I am very strongly northern Irish, and yes of course my nationality is British and I feel very British during remembrance, Olympic Games etc. But when it is NI specific ie football I just love beating England almost as much I love beating ROI
As to a UI. I guess it would be a great sense of loss. For me not so much the loss of the uk but the loss of NI. I am probably in a small minority of unionists who would give serious consideration to a UI that operates like UK ie I don’t lose my country.
I absolutely will never be cooperating with any agreement that results in NI not existing. I would try hard to remain completely peaceful in that scenario but I am honestly not sure I could. Could you, if UK took over roi again??
I am sure each generation (nationalist and unionist) is getting more open to options their parents would not have considered. So I could see a UI settling down in a couple of generations. I really couldn’t even guess how many would leave. Don’t know what I would do myself.

Could I ask you the same question.
Let’s say dublin decided tomorrow to announce UI was no longer an option or objective and they said that nationalists had no choice but to get involved in a forum on how roi should cooperate with a uk which would include NI forever?

This is where you can't help revealing the belligerent DUP stance. All this was sorted in the GFA.
There is a process in action and it has agreed outcomes.

downcow · 08-03-2020 7:02pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This is where you can't help revealing the belligerent DUP stance. All this was sorted in the GFA.
There is a process in action and it has agreed outcomes.

Francie I was responding to a very civil reasonable question and I realise how that concept would go right over your head woooshh

FrancieBrady · 08-03-2020 7:08pm

downcow wrote: »

Francie I was responding to a very civil reasonable question and I realise how that concept would go right over your head woooshh

You didn't answer the questions...you just gave another version of Never Never Never.

If a majority vote for a UI, then London WILL be telling you to get ready to leave the UK.
As I said, this is all mapped out already by international agreement.

downcow · 08-03-2020 7:27pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You didn't answer the questions...you just gave another version of Never Never Never..

I would be really interested to know if other posters think I didn’t answer it or whether it is just you desperate prejudice that is making you think that

FrancieBrady · 08-03-2020 7:39pm

downcow wrote: »

I would be really interested to know if other posters think I didn’t answer it or whether it is just you desperate prejudice that is making you think that

4 questions in his/her's post and you didn't answer any of them.

1. Do you think the more hardline folk would move across the water?

2. Do you think the OO would still be around or would the bands morph into something similar to pipe bands you’d see on Paddy’s day?

3. but I wonder how Britishness would be celebrated or again would it be less so a few generations in?

4. Let’s say London decided tomorrow it was going to look at incorporating the six counties back into the RoI and they said that unionists had no choice but to get involved in a forum on the possible outcomes?

Just waffled some more Never Never stuff...implied a threat that you might be be physically violent and waffled some more about 'agreements' WHEN THEY HAVE ALREADY BEEN MADE in the GFA which you 'claim' to support.

Chancer downcow!

jm08 · 08-03-2020 7:50pm

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

Could I ask you the same question.
Let’s say dublin decided tomorrow to announce UI was no longer an option or objective and they said that nationalists had no choice but to get involved in a forum on how roi should cooperate with a uk which would include NI forever?

'Dublin' couldn't decide that. It would require a referendum to change Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution again!

If a referendum decided that is what we would do, then we would have to go along with it.

Don't see that happening though!

downcow · 08-03-2020 7:57pm

jm08 wrote: »

'Dublin' couldn't decide that. It would require a referendum to change Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution again!

If a referendum decided that is what we would do, then we would have to go along with it.

Don't see that happening though!

I was answering a hypothetical question about London chucking us out (or not answering in Francie view).
Obviously neither London or Dublin can amend the gfa without agreement. Ni remains part of uk until majority of ni (& roi) decide otherwise). We have to deal hypothetically because even Francie knows that will never be a reality

downcow · 08-03-2020 7:59pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

4 questions in his/her's post and you didn't answer any of them.

Just waffled some more Never Never stuff...implied a threat that you might be be physically violent and waffled some more about 'agreements' WHEN THEY HAVE ALREADY BEEN MADE in the GFA which you 'claim' to support.

Chancer downcow!

Francie. What is it you personally find offensive about today’s loyalist parades Chancer. Lol

jm08 · 08-03-2020 8:00pm

20-30 years

downcow wrote: »

I was answering a hypothetical question about London chucking us out (or not answering in Francie view).
Obviously neither London or Dublin can amend the gfa without agreement. Ni remains part of uk until majority of ni (& roi) decide otherwise). We have to deal hypothetically because even Francie knows that will never be a reality

My point is that Dublin decides nothing without a referendum, so whatever the plan, it would have to go to the people.

Out of interest DC, what would you think of joint authority of the British and Irish Gov. (with two Sec. of State with joint authority)?

downcow · 08-03-2020 8:12pm

jm08 wrote: »

My point is that Dublin decides nothing without a referendum, so whatever the plan, it would have to go to the people.

Out of interest DC, what would you think of joint authority of the British and Irish Gov. (with two Sec. of State with joint authority)?

An interesting suggestion I have never considered positively in the past. But with sensible devolution and my country intact, I would certainly say it deserves consideration.

FrancieBrady · 08-03-2020 8:14pm

downcow wrote: »

Francie. What is it you personally find offensive about today’s loyalist parades Chancer. Lol

Still trying to save yourself on that crutch downcow.

I told you long long ago, nobody finds respectful parades 'offensive'.

The issue is offensive behaviour around those parades...and underhand attempts to parade again where they are not wanted.
Trust is not automatic...you need to earn it.

And what is this nonsense about 'NI disappearing'?

If there is a majority vote for a UI, it becomes 'northern Ireland', a region of the island of Ireland just like 'southern or western Ireland'.
Done and dusted and agreed with the British.

How long before Irish reunification?

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