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Car Incident. Need advice

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    #182
    JustTheOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,681 ✭✭✭JustTheOne


    rockonollie wrote: »
    This makes it pretty clear that the 2nd exit is past 12 o'clock.

    https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2712955,-6.2397945,3a,75y,254.42h,74.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-S0UN0u4vVj3wLAH68P7BQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

    Correct me if I'm wrong but on that Google Street view there is bushes blocking any sight to after 9 o clock on the roundabout?

    If you aren't familiar with that roundabout how are you meant to know where the 2nd exit is positioned?

    Edit- I see you mead the sign sorry.


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    #183
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    degsie wrote: »
    Roundabouts are NOT complicated
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rsdaSTOkWk

    That one isn't .......... if only all roundabouts were the same!!





















    But they're not ...........


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    #184
    The Backwards Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    The driver of the other car should have stopped dead on the inside lane to make sure that there were no cars coming around the outside lane past the exit that they should have exited. And they should stay there until such time as driverless cars become a reality.

    Actually scratch that.

    Who's going to be programming driverless cars how to use a roundabout?


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    #185
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    The Backwards Man wrote: »
    Who's going to be programming driverless cars how to use a roundabout?

    Not us lot anyway!!!


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    #186
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,213 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    I'm also aware that others using the roundabout may not be as familiar with it as I am and so act accordingly.
    You don't need to be familiar with a specific roundabout to know you probably should be in the right hand lane if you're wanting to turn to the right. Its hardly complicated.
    FortySeven wrote: »
    You really have no idea how to drive do you? Op was in the blind spot and should not have been there .

    Regarding the blue car, its really not an insignificant factor that the roundabout in question can be extremely busy and is used by a hell of a lot of people, and as a result there will be a certain amount of learned behaviour. Every day there will be thousands of drivers going around that roundabout and exiting for the M50 northbound, a constant flow of traffic that doesn't allow for dawdling or for slowing down in the middle of the road to watch for unknowns. If you come from the Dundrum side you will be exiting for the M50, thats the flow of traffic and its what everybody on the road will be expecting you to do, so thats what everybody does.

    Even with traffic laws, with the volumes of traffic on the roads things only work when everybody does what they are supposed to do. Yes, every single driver should be 100% aware of every other car around them and drive cautiously, but if that was actually happening we would have gridlock and nobody gets anywhere. Within certain limits there is and needs to be a certain amount of assumption on the roads, you are aware that the other driver could pull in front of you but also you have to assume that he probably won't. You watch the car to your left, but you don't slow to a crawl on the one chance in a thousand that he will completely mess up, because if everybody on that roundabout did the same nobody would get to work in the morning.

    My point is simply that I have some sympathy for the blue driver. They call it a "flow" of traffic for a reason, and it was flowing perfectly fine for thousands of people until the unqualified driver went into the wrong lane and broke that flow.


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    #187
    degsie
    Registered Users Posts: 8,740 ✭✭✭degsie


    This 'incident' would never have happened if the op was in the correct lane or at the very least have an experienced driver sitting beside him/her as they should have. The passenger could have fore-warned the driver of the existence of the other car and even berated the op for taking the wrong approach when entering the roundabout. It's going to be an expensive lesson for the op.


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    #188
    guil
    Registered Users Posts: 10,489 ✭✭✭✭guil


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    The published guidelines from the Road Safety Authority doesn't use 1st exit or 2nd exit, but clock face \ turning left \ going straight ahead. I haven't seen anything in the rules of the road allowing a car in left lane to use second exit ... so I'm curious about why you think left lane car can use second exit?

    You acknowledge that 1st and 2nd exits aren't the correct terms yet you use them anyway?


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    #189
    forumuser
    Registered Users Posts: 104 ✭✭forumuser


    degsie wrote: »
    This 'incident' would never have happened if the op was in the correct lane or at the very least have an experienced driver sitting beside him/her as they should have. The passenger could have fore-warned the driver of the existence of the other car and even berated the op for taking the wrong approach when entering the roundabout. It's going to be an expensive lesson for the op.

    That assumes that the experienced driver knows how to use roundabouts!


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    #190
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,338 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    guil wrote: »
    You acknowledge that 1st and 2nd exits aren't the correct terms yet you use them anyway?

    As far as I know 1st and 2nd exits aren't the correct\official terms. Everything 'official' that I have seen uses left \ straight through \ right or the hand of the clock.
    I have only come across the numbered exit terminology in relation to directions and signposts

    But I used numbered exits in the context of requesting other people using those terms to supply examples from the RSA or Rules of the Road of their official use.
    I am still waiting. Therefore I will continue to operate on the assumption that numbered exits terminology has no official bearing in any discussion on rules of the road.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #191
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    degsie wrote: »
    This 'incident' would never have happened if the op was in the correct lane or at the very least have an experienced driver sitting beside him/her as they should have. The passenger could have fore-warned the driver of the existence of the other car and even berated the op for taking the wrong approach when entering the roundabout. It's going to be an expensive lesson for the op.

    Or an expensive lesson for the driver of the other car seeing as she left her lane and collided with a vehicle travelling in the lane she wished to enter ......... or maybe they'll both share the expense ......... it's really down to how the Insurance Company views the point of impact.


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    #192
    Mango Joe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭Mango Joe


    FortySeven wrote: »
    The rules are simple. You follow them unless there are signs saying otherwise. The problem is not the rules. The problem is that the rules are created by intelligent people who are interested in road safety. They are then interptreted by selfish buffoons who cannot be bothered to take responsibility to learn anymore than is required to pass the test.
    FortySeven wrote: »
    That's how the insurance will settle it. Doesn't change the fact that the op caused the accident 100% by being in the completely wrong lane . Stupidity should be punished. Not reacting adequately to stupidity should not .

    There seems to be a lot of people on here debating this point at great length - I wouldn't say its as immediately and obviously clear cut as you've been making out - Especially for a novice driver.

    I'd certainly make the point that there's no call for anyone on here to be obnoxious and call people names.

    Judging by your posting style I'd never believe you if you told me you'd never made an error of judgement on our roads!

    - I'd prefer to make an innocent incorrect call on a roundabout due to a technicality than to live my life as a complete and utter .... ;)


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    #193
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    Both drivers are at fault.

    The OP was in the wrong lane.
    The other driver didn't check the blind spot.

    If either driver too the right action, the accident would have been avoided.

    If you're on the inside lane and your path out of the roundabout is obstructed, then you go around again.


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    #194
    mickoneill31
    Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭mickoneill31


    All of this highlights the stupidity of our system. We shouldn't have debates on Boards about what we "think" is the correct way. The RSA could clarify this and make some rules so there's no subjectivity and then everybody can be taught it during the L phase. For the rest of us a TV campaign and update to the rules of the road is all we'd need. We'd still miss some people but at least when threads like this pop up on Boards we can just give a link to a definitive RSA rule and close the thread. :D
    How hard is that really? Do we need endless debates about everything or can we not just fix simple stuff like this.


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    #195
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    eeguy wrote: »
    If either driver too the right action, the accident would have been avoided.

    Exactly. Proper clear road markings would help aswell.


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    #196
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    mickoneill31 wrote: »
    All of this highlights the stupidity of our system. We shouldn't have debates on Boards about what we "think" is the correct way. The RSA could clarify this and make some rules so there's no subjectivity and then everybody can be taught it during the L phase. For the rest of us a TV campaign and update to the rules of the road is all we'd need. We'd still miss some people but at least when threads like this pop up on Boards we can just give a link to a definitive RSA rule and close the thread. :D
    How hard is that really? Do we need endless debates about everything or can we not just fix simple stuff like this.

    The answer was simple. It just shows people's lack of knowledge about how roundabouts work.

    Not all roundabouts are created equal, with exits at 12, 3, 6 and 9 o'clock, but the rules are flexible enough to account for the variety.


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    #197
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,213 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    eeguy wrote: »

    If you're on the inside lane and your path out of the roundabout is obstructed, then you go around again.

    The problem isn't really that her path was obstructed, the problem is that its one of those cases where everything was perfectly normal right up until the very nano-second of the collision.

    Its one thing to say that there was a car on her left and she should have acted accordingly, but at peak times there is always a car on your left there, it can be a very busy junction. There is always a car there and that car always heads up to the M50, because thats where anybody in that lane should be going.

    Like I said already, if every car in that right lane slowed down and waited for the car on the left to go where its going then the junction would grind to a halt. So she sees the car on her left, everything is fine until that car turns right and ****s everything up. And that will happen in a split second.

    I'm not saying she is without blame, I have seen plenty of people do the same as the OP and continue on there and so I personally make sure I reach that point staggered to any other car. But its not like she hit a stationary car either, she took her correct exit from the roundabout and another driver went where he shouldn't have and into her path, she can feel a little aggrieved in my opinion.


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    #198
    FortySeven
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,296 ✭✭✭FortySeven


    Mango Joe wrote: »
    There seems to be a lot of people on here debating this point at great length - I wouldn't say its as immediately and obviously clear cut as you've been making out - Especially for a novice driver.

    I'd certainly make the point that there's no call for anyone on here to be obnoxious and call people names.

    Judging by your posting style I'd never believe you if you told me you'd never made an error of judgement on our roads!

    - I'd prefer to make an innocent incorrect call on a roundabout due to a technicality than to live my life as a complete and utter .... ;)

    I'd rather be completely and utterly correct than mess around trying to be polite.
    That 'innocent and incorrect call' could have resulted in a death. Still comfortable in your apologistic incompetence?


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    #199
    BMJD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,694 ✭✭✭BMJD


    Roundabouts are ghey


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    #200
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    The problem isn't really that her path was obstructed, the problem is that its one of those cases where everything was perfectly normal right up until the very nano-second of the collision.

    Its one thing to say that there was a car on her left and she should have acted accordingly, but at peak times there is always a car on your left there, it can be a very busy junction. There is always a car there and that car always heads up to the M50, because thats where anybody in that lane should be going.

    I'm not saying she is without blame, I have seen plenty of people do the same as the OP and continue on there and so I personally make sure I reach that point staggered to any other car. But its not like she hit a stationary car either, she took her correct exit from the roundabout and another driver went where he shouldn't have and into her path, she can feel a little aggrieved in my opinion.

    These are both assumptions that drivers should never make.
    Both drivers are in the wrong.

    Fair enough, I've been caught out a few times by idiot drivers, but you should never move your car unless you're 100% sure your path is unobstructed.


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    #201
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,213 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    eeguy wrote: »
    Fair enough, I've been caught out a few times by idiot drivers, but you should never move your car unless you're 100% sure your path is unobstructed.

    Thats the theory, and its a good one. Unfortunately in the real world its not always feasible.

    An easy example is the M50, I could be in the correct lane and moving forward at the speed limit, sure that my path is unobstructed. Then an idiot could pull in front of me and cause an accident. Should I tiptoe around the M50 hitting the brakes every few seconds in case it happens again? Of course not, at some point you have to accept that risks are inherent and get on with it, else you would never get anywhere.

    There are thousands of examples of this every day. When on the M50 you have to accept that the thousands of other drivers are going to stay in the right place, when you go through a green light you have to assume that other drivers will stop at their red, and when you take your correct exit on a very busy roundabout you have to believe to some extent that the other drivers on the road know what the **** they are supposed to be doing.


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    #202
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    Thats the theory, and its a good one. Unfortunately in the real world its not always feasible.

    An easy example is the M50, I could be in the correct lane and moving forward at the speed limit, sure that my path is unobstructed. Then an idiot could pull in front of me and cause an accident.
    That's a totally different discussion. In this case you're not doing anything at all.
    bucketybuck wrote: »
    There are thousands of examples of this every day. When on the M50 you have to accept that the thousands of other drivers are going to stay in the right place, when you go through a green light you have to assume that other drivers will stop at their red, and when you take your correct exit on a very busy roundabout you have to believe to some extent that the other drivers on the road know what the **** they are supposed to be doing.

    There's no assumptions here either. You see the cars slowing and stopping at the lights, you see other cars move into appropriate lanes.
    If my light goes green and I see that a car is not going to stop at the red then I wont move until I'm sure there's no hazard.


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    #203
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,213 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    eeguy wrote: »
    There's no assumptions here either. You see the cars slowing and stopping at the lights, you see other cars move into appropriate lanes.
    If my light goes green and I see that a car is not going to stop at the red then I wont move until I'm sure there's no hazard.

    You seem to be ignoring that in the case of the OP there is a mere nano-second difference between everything being perfectly routine and then the contact.

    I'm not talking about checking the path is clear before moving forward, I am talking about the path being clear, your light being green, you moving forward and then getting hit when you are halfway through the junction. At a certain point when you checked your path you had to move forward on the assumption that there wasn't much more you could do, and if you want to get home you will just have to go.


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    #204
    OldmanMondeo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭OldmanMondeo


    FortySeven wrote: »
    Did you get your licence during the amnesty old man?

    No past my test first time around, in the 90's young lad..... Knowing when you can change lane and when you can't is not an age thing. Quite simple, if there is a car in the lane you want / need to be in, then wait until it is safe to cross into to it. Do just assume that you flashing amber light on the side of the car gives you right of way and the other car must pull out of your way.


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    #205
    OldmanMondeo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭OldmanMondeo


    Really can't believe that people are still trying to lay blame at the OP for this accident. The other driver DROVE into him, crossed the road markings to do so. If anyone here can not under stand that then please give your licence back and learn to drive again. Your a danger on the road.


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    #206
    FortySeven
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,296 ✭✭✭FortySeven


    OldmanMondeo wrote: »
    No past my test first time around, in the 90's young lad..... Knowing when you can change lane and when you can't is not an age thing. Quite simple, if there is a car in the lane you want / need to be in, then wait until it is safe to cross into to it. Do just assume that you flashing amber light on the side of the car gives you right of way and the other car must pull out of your way.

    I started driving in 1990. Don't consider myself old....

    I'm not sure if you are just trolling? It can't be possible to be this persistent whilst being so wrong?

    Riddle me this, let's say there was a continuous stream of traffic doing what the OP did. How does one ever exit the roundabout? Seems like a fundamental design flaw in this structure which works the world over.

    Gravitational effect on the penny seems to be lacking with you. :P


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    #207
    Atomic Pineapple
    Registered Users Posts: 18,272 ✭✭✭✭Atomic Pineapple


    OldmanMondeo wrote: »
    Really can't believe that people are still trying to lay blame at the OP for this accident. The other driver DROVE into him, crossed the road markings to do so. If anyone here can not under stand that then please give your licence back and learn to drive again. Your a danger on the road.

    The OP is to blame here, their driving was incorrect, the other driver may have hit the OP but the cause was the OP not understanding basic use of a roundabout and driving in a dangerous manner. Anyone can argue what way insurance will try to go with it but saying the cause of the incident was nothing to do with the OP defies basic common sense, they are heavily to blame for it.

    http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Leaflets/Leaf_booklets/Roundabouts_DL_2012_v3.pdf


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    #208
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    OldmanMondeo wrote: »
    Really can't believe that people are still trying to lay blame at the OP for this accident. The other driver DROVE into him, crossed the road markings to do so. If anyone here can not under stand that then please give your licence back and learn to drive again. Your a danger on the road.

    Yeah I have to say, what about expect the unexpected and all that? She might have been entitled to drive on but not at the cost of causing an accident

    I'd nearly be inclined to say both of them


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    #209
    Atomic Pineapple
    Registered Users Posts: 18,272 ✭✭✭✭Atomic Pineapple


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Yeah I have to say, what about expect the unexpected and all that? She might have been entitled to drive on but not at the cost of causing an accident


    She didn't cause it, the OP did. :D


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    #210
    FortySeven
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,296 ✭✭✭FortySeven


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Yeah I have to say, what about expect the unexpected and all that? She might have been entitled to drive on but not at the cost of causing an accident

    I'd nearly be inclined to say both of them

    If the op had been in the correct lane then there would have been no collision. Period.

    Trying to pin the blame on a poor unfortunate who failed to react to this split second maneuver is completely wrong, trying to share the blame is just a cop out. It is the ops fault or it isn't.

    As far as I am aware it is not mentioned anywhere, in any walk of life that we are to be held responsible for mistakes that other people make.


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    #211
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,338 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    OldmanMondeo wrote: »
    Really can't believe that people are still trying to lay blame at the OP for this accident. The other driver DROVE into him, crossed the road markings to do so. If anyone here can not under stand that then please give your licence back and learn to drive again. Your a danger on the road.

    The OP should not have been there. There are circumstances in which you can drive into another car, crossing road marking to do so, and hit a car that should not have been there e.g. you are turning left at a yield sign and hit a car which has taken an illegal u-turn into the road space you are entering.

    The OP is at least 50% at fault. In terms of actually triggering the accident their behaviour was 100% at fault as they did not use the roundabout properly, and anyone else conducting themselves in the same way on a roundabout is going to trigger accidents. The failure of the other driver to anticipate their incorrect use of the roundabout may lead to a 50-50 decision by insurance companies.

    But imho there is no way to reconcile multi-lane roundabouts \ smooth flow of traffic and an expectation for drivers to drive defensively and anticipate incorrect use of roundabouts by other drivers. If we have to crawl through multi-lane roundabouts because if we hit a car improperly using the roundabout we will be partly at fault then just get rid of them.

    Expect the unexpected is all well and good in theory but maybe the RSA should start applying that to road design.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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