Car Incident. Need advice

Libertewhite

So here is my dilemma:




I'm the red lines. Other person is blue dots.

I went on to the roundabout at the turn before the dots. (Where the red lines start)
When I went on to the roundabout, there was nobody else on it. I couldn't see anybody going from my right and there was nobody in front of me. Blue line was not there, thus the blue question mark.
Anyway.

I was indicating right, to follow the yellow lines. If I had managed to get to the yellow spot, I would indicate to go left.
So, this blue car comes speeding around the roundabout and cuts into me. Both of the sides of our cars clash. My right side and her left hand side.

We both got out, asked her if she was okay, she asked if I was okay, etc. Then she said I was in the fault. I said she was in the fault, then she said I was definitely in the fault again and I said sorry. She asked for my details, I gave them. I asked her for her details and she didn't respond. Not sure if she fobbed me off or didn't hear me. All I got was her name, number and licence plate.

She was being really nice and she said she was in shock. I was in shock, too.
When we were parting ways, she said she would get cost to fix and contact me later.

She said she was in an incident last week with her own car and police were involved. (Hit and run). Blue car was her dads car.
I'm a learner driver with L plates up. I have tax and insurance both in date. I didn't have anyone accompany me as I was driving.

What should I do? I can't think straight and I'm shaking.

Nuw

First off, sit back, take a deep breath, it can't hurt
Once you get your wits back, call her and ask for her insurance details, once you have that contact your own insurance to let them know what happened.

Do not admit liability.
You do not have to file a claim yet, just let them know what happened and that you're looking to resolve the issue directly with the other driver involved (insurances actually prefer this).

If it comes to that, they'll already have the details and will just have to file them to process the claim.

Hopefully, everything will be sorted between you two.

As to who's at fault, it's hard for me to tell, most likely there'll be someone else who can help you there

Senna

Very hard to say, as I don't understand your diagram fully, but if your changed lanes and didn't see the other driver in the left Lane (you were coming from the right lane) then you would be at fault as you maneuvered when it was not safe to do so. But I'm not sure if that is what happened.

Libertewhite

Senna wrote: »

Very hard to say, as I don't understand your diagram fully, but if your changed lanes and didn't see the other driver in the left Lane (you were coming from the right lane) then you would be at fault as you maneuvered when it was not safe to do so. But I'm not sure if that is what happened.

I didn't change lanes. Do you see where the red lines start? That's where I joined the roundabout. The yellow was just to show where I was going. I wasn't going to change lanes.

SteelyDanJalapeno

Senna wrote: »

Very hard to say, as I don't understand your diagram fully, but if your changed lanes and didn't see the other driver in the left Lane (you were coming from the right lane) then you would be at fault as you maneuvered when it was not safe to do so. But I'm not sure if that is what happened.

Looks like OP started in the outside lane and wanted to take the last r/bout exit, and the person on the inside lane wanted to take the exit before the last exit.

EndaHonesty

You were in the wrong lane.

Libertewhite

Nuw wrote: »

You do not have to file a claim yet, just let them know what happened and that you're looking to resolve the issue directly with the other driver involved (insurances actually prefer this).

I had thought about that but what if she is genuine and I am in the fault. Would I be ****ed because I don't have a full licence?

Nody

I'm a learner driver with L plates up. I have tax and insurance both in date. I didn't have anyone accompany me as I was driving.

Well for starters your insurance for the accident for any claims on your car is null and void basically; you broke the law and policy so you will get zero from your own insurance for that accident (they would still need to pay third party iirc) and could come after you for the third party cost as well if memory serves. Hence your best bet is to follow up with her to try to get it fixed but with only a plate and name you're going to have to hope to high heavens she comes back to you and don't get a hurt neck out of the blue...

SteelyDanJalapeno

EndaHonesty wrote: »

You were in the wrong lane.

I don't think that's what the OP was asking.

mickdw

If you came on where the red line starts and attempted to go around the roundabout to the right hand exit, you are 100 percent wrong.
2 lanes in and 2 lanes out mean both lanes are entitled to travel straight ahead so both yourself and other car would have been right if both leaving on straight ahead exit. What you did is drove around in front of the other car as they legitimately tried to leave the roundabout. They would have assumed you were exiting also.

Harpie

If I'm interpreting your diagram correctly, tbh I would have taken the right lane to come off at the second exit if I were you. Likewise she should have been in the left lane to come off at that exit, so I reckon you may both be at fault.

EDIT: With regards the unaccompanied Learner issue- I'm not going to get on my high horse about it but the rules are there for a reason, and hopefully it won't be an expensive lesson for you to learn. That said, the general use of roundabouts in this country is abysmal- learner or not.

emeldc

EndaHonesty wrote: »

You were in the wrong lane.

If that's the case, so was the blue car.

Rubberchikken

i'm willing to guess that she is in the wrong. was she attempting to go the same direction you were intending to go?
if so cutting in in front of you (if i have things right from the op / diagram) is wrong.
i stand corrected by others but it just seems that way to me.

also, the part about her possible involvement in other accident you mention causes me to raise my eyebrows.

definitely contact your insurance.
hope things work out ok for you.

SteelyDanJalapeno

Also not her car, was she even insured?

You were in the wrong lane OP.
You were going right and should have been in the right lane

daymobrew

mickdw wrote: »

They would have assumed you were exiting also.

Assuming is dangerous. The other driver, who should have seen you, should have aborted her exit. She could easily go around and try again (it's a roundabout!) - it's annoying (especially if the roundabout has traffic lights) but is much safer.

You said that you were indicating - so check that your right rear indicator is working.

hmmm

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/roundabouts.html

Assuming there are no road markings, I'd say both of you are in the wrong - you for being in the wrong lane, her for cutting across you. I'd admit no blame at this stage.

emeldc

bubblypop wrote: »

You were in the wrong lane OP.
You were going right and should have been in the right lane

She (blue) was going left and should have been in the left lane

coolbeans

Seems to me that both drivers were in the wrong lane.

SteelyDanJalapeno

emeldc wrote: »

She (blue) was going left and should have been in the left lane

Depending on where she got on the roundabout, anything other than the entry point before, and this is wrong

emeldc

emeldc wrote: »

If that's the case, so was the blue car.

Nope, two lanes onto & off, the other car was entitled to go straight on.
The OP was not entitled to turn right.
I see you're a learner without a fully licensed driver with you. You're lucky the gardai were not called.
Doesn't matter if she has been in 20 previous accidents that were all her fault, thus one wasn't.
If I was you, I would pay for the damage to her car & hope that's the end of it!

dar83

Op, you were in the wrong lane. You should have joined the roundabout in the right hand lane of the approaching road and been on the inside lane of the roundabout as you were planning on going beyond 180 degrees (straight on). If you think of a roundabout as a clock, which you always approach from the 6 o'clock position the general rules are:

9 o'clock (first) exit - indicate left, stay left
12 o'clock (second) exit - indicate left after you pass 9 o'clock and stay left
3 o'clock (third) exit - indicate right until you pass 12 o'clock, stay right, then indicate left between 12 and 3 and move left.
6 o'clock (fourth) exit - indicate right until you pass 3 o'clock, stay right, then indicate left between 3 and 6 and move left.

Now things get confusing when more exits and multiple lanes are introduced, but if you follow that simple thought process it makes things generally clear on where and what you should be doing.

Jhcx

As above you were in the wrong lane to start with. Any exit after 12 oclock the driver should be using the right lane. If you had began in the right lane moved to the inside lane the driver in the blue car would have to swerve out into the outer lane to avoid you where it seems they were going taking the exit to the left of the picture. after that junction you would indicate left to show your intention to move back out into the outer lane.

Senna

Libertewhite wrote: »

I didn't change lanes. Do you see where the red lines start? That's where I joined the roundabout. The yellow was just to show where I was going. I wasn't going to change lanes.

Sorry I didn't see the red lines, on mobile. Looks to me like equal blame, you shouldn't have been in left Lane if taking last exit, she shouldn't have tried to cut infront of you unless you were taking the same exit as her.
Easy to say admit nothing but you shouldn't have been driving on your own and so you were driving illegally. At best you both pay for your own damage but could be hard to get her to agree to that without involving insurance companies.

Libertewhite

Okay, I was in the wrong lane. My bad. What are my options? If she asks for cash and not to go with insurance, I'd prefer that route. I just hope she doesn't take me to the cleaners.

BigBird58

From what I understand, you were both in the wrong lanes.
The other person should have moved to the left hand lane after she passed the point where you entered,. . . . likewise you should have taken the right hand after you entered the roundabout and then moved to the left lane before exit.

It's unfortunate you had no one with you, as I fear you are actually not insured being on your own.

I think its best to settle this '50 /50' between you, and chalk it down to experience.

Harpie

She was taking her first exit, she should have been in the left lane.

hmmm

bubblypop wrote: »

Nope, two lanes onto & off, the other car was entitled to go straight on.

If someone leaves their lane and hits me on a roundabout, I'm assuming they are wrong irrespective of which lane I "should" be in. Even if they are in the more correct lane, they still do not have the right to cut across me.

mickdw

The most critical point here is that you cannot drive right around the outside of a roundabout when taking the exit the op was taking. Doing that guarantees that you will have several near misses.
You couldn't pay me enough to drive around the outside of a roundabout like that. I would be just waiting for the smash.

CapnHex

This is not an expert opinion, but I do use that junction most days.
I'm very sorry to hear that you were in an accident. I hope nobody was hurt.
Traffic in the lane you were in (left), usually go up the ramp for the M50. Traffic in the right lane, go up the M50 ramp without changing lane or take the next exit.
As you were going past the M50 ramp exit, you would have been safer to be in the right lane approaching the roundabout.
That said, both drivers have a responsibility to pay attention to traffic around them and not just assume a car will take an exit based on their road position.
If you were indicating right, then the other motorist should have seen that and acted accordingly, giving you room.
You also say that you didn't see the other car, so perhaps you didn't check your mirrors adequately.
To me this appears that both of you were at fault, but to what percentage I'm not sure.
Objectively, if I was the other driver I would think that you were more at fault, but I would know that I should have paid more attention to your indicator (ie. traffic around me).
Admit no liability.

MarkR

You were both in the wrong, as mentioned before. Red should have been in the right lane, and blue shouldn't have crossed the other lane (where they intersect at the end of the roundabout) before making sure it was clear.

If you don't know how to use a roundabout, you really shouldn't be driving unaccompanied.

SteelyDanJalapeno

It's not as basic as incorrect lanes thou, if I'm on a roundabout and I know someones in a wrong, does that mean I can turn straight into them to prove a point?

You still need to be careful when switching lanes.

emeldc

mickdw wrote: »

The most critical point here is that you cannot drive right around the outside of a roundabout when taking the exit the op was taking. Doing that guarantees that you will have several near misses.
You couldn't pay me enough to drive around the outside of a roundabout like that. I would be just waiting for the smash.

And you're right, but the OP was indicating right which should have told the blue car driving up behind that he definitely wasn't turning left like she was. I think she was driving more carelessly than the OP. A little more care and she could have tucked in behind him and made her left turn.

bucketybuck

I know that roundabout extremely well, and the OP is very much in the wrong.

The lady in blue went around the roundabout and then exited at her exit, she was in the correct lane and she does not need to switch lanes while on the roundabout to prepare for the upcoming exit. She simply needs to follow the roundabout around and then exit, she did so. She does need to ensure her path is clear and her failure to do so was a contribution, but the incident would not have occurred if the OP knew how to use a roundabout.

Thousands of cars every week will do exactly what "blue" did without a problem, unless they happen to meet the person wrongly going past an exit in the outside lane.

OP, a rule of thumb worth remembering, you should never really be passing an exit on a roundabout in the outside lane. If you are in the outside lane you should be leaving at the next exit, if you try to pass that exit you will be cutting across the exit path of a car attempting to reach it.

Turtle_

Eh, OP is definitely to blame here. How on earth did you not see her, OP? You can't even go so fast around that roundabout that someone wouldn't see you. There are two exit lanes to the ramp onto the M50 (straight through), if you join that roundabout from the Balinteer Road (road at the top on the OP's pic that goes under the M50) you very often don't have any opportunity to move left because of people joining the left lane where the OP did.

The other driver had a lapse in concentration, or perhaps the OP's indicators weren't visible and maybe due to an unfamiliar car wasn't aware of that. We don't know, but yes, there is some small apportionment of blame to the other driver. But the majority clearly lies with the OP for being in the un-questionably incorrect lane and not knowing the basics of how to use a roundabout, AND not bringing someone with him who does know how to use a roundabout.

We only have one side of the story here: that of an unlicensed driver who doesn't know how to use a roundabout and who also clearly has problems with observation whilst driving. OP doesn't know where the other car came from. Car could have been in his blind spot all along (and possibly out of view of his indicator).


ETA: Dunno why we have someone speculating that she was also uninsured because she was driving her father's car (I say also, OP, because chances are you violated the terms of your insurance by driving alone). She very possibly has drive any car insurance, or her dad has open drive, or she's named on his policy (lots and lots of people named on all cars in a household!)

KERSPLAT!

Turtle_ wrote: »

Eh, OP is definitely to blame here. How on earth did you not see her, OP? You can't even go so fast around that roundabout that someone wouldn't see you. There are two exit lanes to the ramp onto the M50 (straight through), if you join that roundabout from the Balinteer Road (road at the top on the OP's pic that goes under the M50) you very often don't have any opportunity to move left because of people joining the left lane where the OP did.

The other driver had a lapse in concentration, or perhaps the OP's indicators weren't visible and maybe due to an unfamiliar car wasn't aware of that. We don't know, but yes, there is some small apportionment of blame to the other driver. But the majority clearly lies with the OP for being in the un-questionably incorrect lane and not knowing the basics of how to use a roundabout, AND not bringing someone with him who does know how to use a roundabout.

We only have one side of the story here: that of an unlicensed driver who doesn't know how to use a roundabout and who also clearly has problems with observation whilst driving. OP doesn't know where the other car came from. Car could have been in his blind spot all along (and possibly out of view of his indicator).


ETA: Dunno why we have someone speculating that she was also uninsured because she was driving her father's car (I say also, OP, because chances are you violated the terms of your insurance by driving alone). She very possibly has drive any car insurance, or her dad has open drive, or she's named on his policy (lots and lots of people named on all cars in a household!)

Libertewhite wrote: »

Okay, I was in the wrong lane. My bad. What are my options? If she asks for cash and not to go with insurance, I'd prefer that route. I just hope she doesn't take me to the cleaners.

Calm the jets like, the OP already admitted to being in the wrong lane and being in the wrong.

TheChizler

bucketybuck wrote: »

OP, a rule of thumb worth remembering, you should never really be passing an exit on a roundabout in the outside lane. If you are in the outside lane you should be leaving at the next exit, if you try to pass that exit you will be cutting across the exit path of a car attempting to reach it.

That's not usually the case at all. The general rule is left lane for first and second exit, unless markings specify otherwise. While that's clear on a normal roundabout with exits at 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock, here it's not so clear as there is no 9 o'clock exit. Going by that rule the OP would have been correct when they came on to the roundabout, as they were taking the second exit. The markings however later indicate that the left lane exits at exit 1, which goes against the convention of a standard roundabout, and it's a little unfair as you couldn't know this without local knowledge.

While the above is the general rule of thumb, there is only one law regarding roundabouts, that you go clockwise basically. Otherwise they're just very curved roads. So technically you can go from whatever lane you want to whatever exit you want, provided you change lanes safely and don't cut into other people's lanes.

It's an awkward one, and understandably confusing. The only clear cut thing to take from this is to always indicate your intention and change lanes carefully.

Nuw

Your insurance will most likely not even ask you if you were alone in the car when it happens. If you have NCB protection, it might not be as bad as it seems.

Do make sure you have her policy details.

Just mention to your insurance that you're trying your best to resolve the issue without having to go through them, wait for her to get back to you with a quote.

If you deem this too expensive for you, just file the claim, the insurance companies will sort it themselves.

Edit: that's why you pay them in the first place

hmmm

hmmm wrote: »

If someone leaves their lane and hits me on a roundabout, I'm assuming they are wrong irrespective of which lane I "should" be in. Even if they are in the more correct lane, they still do not have the right to cut across me.

Nope, the OP actually left his lane to cut across the other car that was going straight ahead. As she was entitled to do.

EndaHonesty

TheChizler wrote: »

That's not usually the case at all. The general rule is left lane for first and second exit, unless markings specify otherwise.

This is the reason people don't know how to use roundabouts. They make up their own "general rules". :rolleyes:

Can you provide a link to somewhere, anywhere, that mentions exit numbers as a means to understanding roundabout use?

Nuw

Also before you call your insurance to let them know (which is most likely a requirement from your contract anyway), make notes of everything you can remember from the incident, make sure you have every details you can remember (for exemple, did you signal properly... that kind of things).

Again, do not accept liability, just state the facts.

Don't mention anything unnecessary unless specifically asked for (for instance that you were driving alone).

Again, wait before you actually file the claim to see if she gets back to you.

As to who's responsible should you have to go the insurance route, they'll sort it out between them.

Hope this helps.

TheChizler

EndaHonesty wrote: »

This is the reason people don't know how to use roundabouts. They make up their own "general rules".

Can you provide a link to anywhere that mentions exit numbers as a means to understanding roundabout use?

I did say it was a rule of thumb. RSA uses position on a clock face, many instructors, and most roundabouts in practice, use the number system. As I said there's no law so just be careful and change lanes carefully.

In the above example, by law neither car was prohibited from being where they were (normal practice might dictate otherwise but what's normal for one person might not be normal for someone else), and it's not clear who hit who, so I would guess 50:50 liability. If as the OP says the other car was going faster, and if they were themselves indicating right, I'd put more fault on the other car as they should have expected the OP's car to continue round the roundabout.

Edit: Technically there's no difference between the roundabout exit and this expertly drawn illustration:



So apart from conventions that aren't written in stone and vary from roundabout to roundabout, it's highly ambiguous what you should do if you're in the right lane and want to go left or left lane and want to go right, and dangerous when you get two people at the same time trying to do both. Safest thing to do is stay in the left for going left and right for going right.

EndaHonesty

TheChizler wrote: »

I did say it was a rule of thumb. RSA uses position on a clock face, many instructors, and most roundabouts in practice, use the number system. As I said there's no law so just be careful and change lanes carefully.

So now it's not a "general rule" but a "rule of thumb"?! lol

Please provide a link to back up your "number system".

TheChizler

EndaHonesty wrote: »

So now it's not a "general rule" but a "rule of thumb"?! lol

Please provide a link to back up your "number system".

Is there a difference? I'm not claiming it's something set in stone anywhere?

Anyway the main point I was addressing was this:

If you are in the outside lane you should be leaving at the next exit

Which is untrue for the majority of roundabouts.

Mycroft H

Is there any road markings, these will supersede any number/clock system.

Senna

Nuw wrote: »

Your insurance will most likely not even ask you if you were alone in the car when it happens. If you have NCB protection, it might not be as bad as it seems.

Learner driver in an accident, It will definitely be asked

TheChizler

Mycroft H wrote: »

Is there any road markings, these will supersede any number/clock system.

Nothing, no signage indicating what to do either. It's a nightmare I'd say unless you knew it and knew what most people do.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.270513,-6.2425657,175m/data=!3m1!1e3

CarrickMcJoe

The driver first on the roundabout (even if in the wrong lane) has the right to exit it safely. OP in the right imo.

cml387

When these roundabout threads crop up (and boy do they crop up) I always think of any 'Murican reading this and saying "Now you see why we don't have roundabouts!"

Essentially roundabouts are marginally-controlled chaos where self preservation is the only safe method of negotiating them.

Nuw

Senna wrote: »

Learner driver in an accident, It will definitely be asked

Actually, I was involved in an incident myself with L plates and insurance never ever asked if I was alone in the car or not. Mind you, that was a few years back, they might have updated their ways since then.

TheChizler

cml387 wrote: »

When these roundabout threads crop up (and boy do they crop up) I always think of any 'Murican reading this and saying "Now you see why we don't have roundabouts!"

Essentially roundabouts are marginally-controlled chaos where self preservation is the only safe method of negotiating them.

Come to think of it I have a recollection that talk of roundabouts is banned, did I just imagine it? Can't see it in the charter. Understandable IMO.