Why do you hate Irish?

psinno wrote: »

That line of logic will lead you to some dark dark places.

Like?

Dughorm wrote: »

In the optional scenario, would the revival be among people who (i) didn't choose it (ii) did choose it (iii) both?

(ii) obviously. And (iv) adults.

For those who don't choose to keep it on - how will they learn it? By themselves?

They won't learn it obviously, they'll learn something else. They're certainly not learning it now, are they?

Dughorm wrote: »

To me that would be a recipe for Irish to be even further marginalised.

No, because people who don;t want to learnt it in seconary school are not going to learn it in secondary school. They'll either learn it as adults, or not at all.

To quote the Labour manifesto - How would "Any Government that Labour is part of will ensure that Irish has central part of the Irish Education system." if Irish was made a minority subject?

Again - there seems to be the attitude that the education is less important than the actual language.

Dughorm wrote: »

I still don't understand how one could make an informed choice when they aren't even given the opportunity to speak the language before the leaving cert?

Eh? They'll have spent 10 years learning it by then! Stop making excuses!

? I think the actual language and education in it - how it is taught - are two sides of the one coin. They float or sink together.

No - every point made has been form the point of view of the lannguage. You've stated that your fear is the language being marginalised - so, by logical decudtion, you think you NEED the people studying to stop it from being so. THIS is why you are so adamant on compulsory Irish - what these students get out of it or don't get it out of it is irrelevant to you.

(And please don't insult me by telling me that get a sense of culture (not everyone needs or wants that - it;s for the individual to decide) or the ability to learn more lanaguges in the future (then why not Latin or French? Far more useful) - we've thrown those arguments out ages ago)

Dughorm wrote: »

And yet up to 10 years not speaking it? I recall our junior cert class not speaking one sentence of oral irish - our class was spent writing notes from the blackboard or doing the tape test.



I don't agree with this - I'm concerned that the current syllabus and teaching methods prevent students appreciating the language - so what they do or don't get from it is very important to me!



The labour party manifesto says that they want to introduce a heritage and culture subject at junior cert. They don't say, but it will presumably be a mandatory subject at junior cycle like CSPE. Maybe everyone won't need or want that but maybe it's not always for the individual to decide?

IMO learning our national languages is culturally important, both of them. I don't think native Irish speakers should be exempt from learning English to leaving cert either.

Dughorm, you can change the curriculum all you want once it's optional. I and most people here won't care then.

Changes I think should be made

- Two Irish subjects (divided topics)

- One for literature which is optional (since they want to keep the teaching of Irish literature)
- One for oral and creative writing which is mandatory

Dughorm wrote: »

Ok, let's have a look here...



Not correct - I do care, wouldn't be here otherwise.

I never said you didn't care, it was what you cared about I was questioning.

Not correct - I had no opportunity to speak the language in junior cycle in the classroom where I was meant to be learning to speak the language.

Why do people give out "I spent 12 years learning Irish and can't *speak* a word of it"? Perhaps it's because they weren't given the opportunity in school.

Without ever being given an opportunity to speak the language i.e. learn it properly, how can one say whether they dislike or like learning the language?

Maybe they dislike writing down words from the board all year long without speaking a word?



Not correct - it's the manifestos that didn't mention the syllabus. I think the syllabus should be improved. This wasn't mentioned in the manifestos.

Edit: Well the Fianna Fail manifesto mentions bringing in a new Irish subject. That would involve changing the syllabus I imagine.



Not correct - it is clear from the manifestos that there is political consensus that Irish is of cultural importance across the spectrum. Not to some posters on this thread but otherwise yes.

1 - informed choice - notice the use of the words "maybe" and "perhaps" in your arguments here. You have nothing concrete. Just potential (and very unlikely) scenarios. You know perfectly well that ten years study is enough to form an opinion without the chance to speak it but are clutching desperately at straws. If the student WANTED to speak it, they would speak it. You cannot bear to listen to the student because you are terrified of what he student would say.

2 - syallabus. Again, you've made my point for me. You talk about manifestos, not syllabi. The fact that only one out of three actually mentioned them also further illustrates your motives. And even then, it was the political party, not you. You said nothing. Drop the charade.

3 - cultural importance. Again, manifestos. Stop hiding behind the manifestos. You've gone from what's important for the language to what's important in the manifesto. At no point have you considered what's important to the student. (And you'll notice I said what's important TO the student, not FOR the student)

Every post you write is manifesto this, language that, cultural the other. You hardly ever refer to students or what you think the student might think or want - because this is of no importance to you.

It's just pure selfishness.

Dughorm wrote: »

Nah, I don't think this represents what I have been saying over the last 100 pages of this thread and the 100 pages on the other thread.

This thread is "why do you hate Irish" -and it is clear that many here do not "hate" Irish, what they hate is the way it is taught.

All my suggestions in this and the other thread about improving the way it is taught gives an opportunity for students to opt in, not opt out because of poor teaching.

That is addressing the real concern by students, past and present, raised in this thread without encouraging an "opt-out" culture in our school system.

To the best of my knowledge, you have not once spoken of understanding student concerns or accepting student opinon. It is their education more than it is yours. Even when I pulled you up on it earlier, your default reaction was "manifesto" not "student". This tells me everything I need to know.

How can my own experience be not concrete?

Why do so many here say their teaching was poor? Why do people say "I spent 12 years learning it and can't speak a word?"

Maybe because they WANTED to speak it but felt they COULDN'T?

... amd maybe they just want to learn something else?

I never said you experience was concrete, but at the end of the day it is just that - your own experience. I've had great experiences with drugs, but would I force everyone else to take them? No - of course not.

The idea that "teaching is poor" really is not the basis on which to make an argument for forcing them to do another two years of it...!

I set out to prove (and have proven) that you feel the need to force these students to study the language in order to prevent it being marginalised, regardless of what they want to learn. Everything you have presented since then has been confirmation bias; and that you have not considered (and are not prepared to consider) what the students actually want to learn.

So no. You have not considered that the student may want to learn something else. Again - because the student's wishes are not your concern.

Again the only thing that makes me hate Irish is the way they put so much of the marks on grammar and the teaching of literature!

It's annoying me how many comments this thread is getting regarding the teaching of Irish. We all know there should be:

- More oral / talking / conversational Irish
- Less grammar
- Less literature

Like even though most of the marks on some questions go for accurate grammar, I don't even learn much grammar in school, I have to teach myself it using grammar books such as Graiméar an Draoi. It is very annoying how I'm not being taught properly! Luckily also, I ask on the Irish forum of certain grammar points where I'm struggling such as what's the difference between Dá and Má. An File is very helpful he makes my learning of Irish so much easier!