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Munster vs Leinster buildup

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    #632
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,042 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    flouncer wrote: »
    Thats exactly it. There will be no change. Experienced internationals over youth every time. Ok thats Irish thread stuff.

    Trimble is older than Dave Kearney. Murray is the ripe old age of 25 or so. This makes no sense.


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    #633
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Yes. Injuries.
    I would guess all, including Joe, and Dave, and his Mum would agree with this.

    Ah now, come on, on the basis of current wingers, we have Zebo and Earls, along with Trimble, I'm not sure Kearney will be ahead of any of them at the minute tbh
    flouncer wrote: »
    Thats exactly it. There will be no change. Experienced internationals over youth every time. Ok thats Irish thread stuff. That aside (and here I must apologize for my comments yesterday) I'm wondering at the lack of effectiveness of the Munster backline. Would it be fair to say that presented ball is so slow that zebo/conway/earls are rendered ineffective. I didnt like that bleyendaal wasnt given the kicking duties. Not a confidence vote and unhelpful for his future progression. If you pick him at outhalf you must at least believe in him. That wasnt shown yesterday. Even with Scannell kicking horrendously, Bleyendaal wasnt handed the reins.

    Whoever was at nine yesterday for Munster was painfully slow at clearing ruck ball which didn't help Munsters cause.


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    #634
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    Stheno wrote: »
    Ah now, come on, on the basis of current wingers, we have Zebo and Earls, along with Trimble, I'm not sure Kearney will be ahead of any of them at the minute tbh

    Thats what I (and Dave's Mum) are agreeing with. i.e. only a spate of injuries will bring him back into the reckoning.


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    #635
    bennyl10
    Registered Users Posts: 5,526 ✭✭✭bennyl10


    Just on the stander heaslip comment..
    Both are the form 8's in the country at th moment, there's no denying or debate in that CJ is decent in turn over and ruck defence, Heaslip is a phenoml there!

    Carrying wise, Heaslip pretty good, but CJ is just immense in that department!!


    Tacking, stats wise they're v similar..

    The one thing that seemingly is iverlooked (and the comment above about Heaslip being ib 6N while CJ played pro 12 made me think of it) CJ is 7.. SEVEN YEARS, his junior.. so for future building has certainly a great assett to have in Irish ranks..

    Say if needed Cj comes in for autumn and italy/scotland.. keep Heaslip for france/england..

    Not exactly a bad back up to have..


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    #636
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    bennyl10 wrote: »
    Just on the stander heaslip comment..
    Both are the form 8's in the country at th moment, there's no denying or debate in that CJ is decent in turn over and ruck defence, Heaslip is a phenoml there!

    Carrying wise, Heaslip pretty good, but CJ is just immense in that department!!


    Tacking, stats wise they're v similar..

    The one thing that seemingly is iverlooked (and the comment above about Heaslip being ib 6N while CJ played pro 12 made me think of it) CJ is 7.. SEVEN YEARS, his junior.. so for future building has certainly a great assett to have in Irish ranks..

    Say if needed Cj comes in for autumn and italy/scotland.. keep Heaslip for france/england..

    Not exactly a bad back up to have..

    Or howabout he's on the bench and does the last twenty minutes, so we get to rest Heaslip a bit more?


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    #637
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    People come on now. Take off the blue and red glasses and repeat after me

    "Ruddock and Stander are both good rugby players".

    Sorted.

    Thing is nobody said Stander was anything but good.....


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    #638
    bennyl10
    Registered Users Posts: 5,526 ✭✭✭bennyl10


    Stheno wrote: »
    Or howabout he's on the bench and does the last twenty minutes, so we get to rest Heaslip a bit more?

    The one not starting would be on the bench obviously:P

    just think CJs youth is forgotten a little


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    #639
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    bennyl10 wrote: »
    The one not starting would be on the bench obviously:P

    just think CJs youth is forgotten a little

    I think part of the issue with CJ is that regardless of others views, I would consider Heaslip a leader and a well established one in the Irish set up, CJ has never even been part of an extended squad.

    That's a big step up imo.


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    #640
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    In Heaslip's favour though if there were any tiebreaker needed : Il Capitano ?

    Or will someone else be given gig ?

    Jonny ? Seanie ? Murrs ?


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    #641
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    In Heaslip's favour though if there were any tiebreaker needed : Il Capitano ?

    Or will someone else be given gig ?

    Jonny ? Seanie ? Murrs ?

    I'd take Best over those three tbh.


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    #642
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    Stheno wrote: »
    I'd take Best over those three tbh.

    Doesnt last the 80 though. But a contender alright.


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    #643
    aimee1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭aimee1


    Stheno wrote: »
    Or howabout he's on the bench and does the last twenty minutes, so we get to rest Heaslip a bit more?

    not that simple. Stander is an 8 who plays 6 sometimes to facilitate others. JS has selected Jordi on the bench before to cover the entire backrow.


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    #644
    Journeyman_1
    Registered Users Posts: 841 ✭✭✭Journeyman_1


    Why are people implying that being a Journeyman is a bad thing...


    :cool:


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    #645
    aimee1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭aimee1


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Doesnt last the 80 though. But a contender alright.

    which is why Heaslip's ability to go the 80 comes in very useful. Best could be skipper with Heaslip as VC


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    #646
    flouncer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 681 ✭✭✭flouncer


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Thats what I (and Dave's Mum) are agreeing with. i.e. only a spate of injuries will bring him back into the reckoning.
    I agree with dave's mum :-)


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    #647
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,556 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    Ah dude, that's the sort of limp conservative attitude that gets Irish rugby nowhere. From what I've seen he looks very promising. In NZ, that means making at least the training squad. In Ireland, it means waiting a few more years. He looks about the same size as snakey Smith, and he did just fine at international level.

    NB: Had a quick look at the pro era (1995 onwards)

    Ireland - Luke Fitz 19, Rhys Ruddock 19, Darcy 19
    NZ - Toeava 19, Rococoko 20, Cullen 20, Cane 20, Atiga 20, Collins 20, Guildford 20, Ralph 20, McCaw 20, Mauger 20 (also Lomu 19 1994, Wilson 20 1993, Innes 20 1989, Little 20 1990)

    Yis can check it out here.

    http://stats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/records/player/youngest_appearance.html?id=3;type=team
    http://stats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/records/player/youngest_appearance.html?id=8;type=team
    He has not shown anything so far that would suggest he is ready to jump straight into an Ireland match day squad.

    Right now he has potential, that is all.


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    #648
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,556 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Age ? 21 for the 6N. He launched Henshaw at the same age.
    Lack of experience. Maybe.
    6'1" and 14st. What are we looking for now ?
    He looks a more darting and creative centre than Henshaw, McCloskey or Payne, with better pace and side step than all.
    It wouldn't be hard to be more creative than Payne and Henshaw, which must be one of the most boring centre partnerships in world rugby.

    McCloskey is a completely different player in a different position. Can't really compare, Ringrose will never be able to bring the power and brute force that McCloskey can for example. The two of them might make a very decent partnership in a few years time!


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    #649
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    awec wrote: »
    It wouldn't be hard to be more creative than Payne and Henshaw, which must be one of the most boring centre partnerships in world rugby.

    McCloskey is a completely different player in a different position. Can't really compare, Ringrose will never be able to bring the power and brute force that McCloskey can for example. The two of them might make a very decent partnership in a few years time!

    Does that not suggest that Stuie at 12 and Rings at 13 is the future then ? The only question is how manage that transition.

    (you cant use it not being hard to be more creative than Payne or Henchie as Ringrose' problem though)


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    #650
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,042 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    awec wrote: »
    He has not shown anything so far that would suggest he is ready to jump straight into an Ireland match day squad.

    Right now he has potential, that is all.

    Well no, he is quite clearly delivering at Pro12 level. I suspect he'd be just fine in Europe too and I hope we'll get to see that in the coming weeks.


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    #651
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,931 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    Well no, he is quite clearly delivering at Pro12 level. I suspect he'd be just fine in Europe too and I hope we'll get to see that in the coming weeks.

    I keep saying it but given that Europe is a write off now for Leinster there is no reason not to give the likes of Ringrose and VDF a shot against really good opposition.


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    #652
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,042 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    I keep saying it but given that Europe is a write off now for Leinster there is no reason not to give the likes of Ringrose and VDF a shot against really good opposition.

    VdF played both Toulon games. Was part of an overpowered pack but I don't think he looked out of his depth.


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    #653
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,556 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Does that not suggest that Stuie at 12 and Rings at 13 is the future then ? The only question is how manage that transition.

    (you cant use it not being hard to be more creative than Payne or Henchie as Ringrose' problem though)

    It could be the future for sure! But then again, both players could fail to make the step up. We'll just have to wait and see.

    Bound to be better to watch than two full backs in the middle of the park though!


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    #654
    flouncer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 681 ✭✭✭flouncer


    awec wrote: »
    It wouldn't be hard to be more creative than Payne and Henshaw, which must be one of the most boring centre partnerships in world rugby.

    McCloskey is a completely different player in a different position. Can't really compare, Ringrose will never be able to bring the power and brute force that McCloskey can for example. The two of them might make a very decent partnership in a few years time!

    As a connacht supporter I shouldnt say this but i totally agree. Henshaw is utterly boring. Boring as a full back, boring as a centre. Look forward to the mccloskey aki centre partnership.


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    #655
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,604 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    Neil Francis
    I actually don't really care if Ringrose plays for Ireland this year, so long as he gets serious minutes for Leinster ASAP.


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    #656
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    Ah dude, that's the sort of limp conservative attitude that gets Irish rugby nowhere. From what I've seen he looks very promising. In NZ, that means making at least the training squad. In Ireland, it means waiting a few more years. He looks about the same size as snakey Smith, and he did just fine at international level.

    NB: Had a quick look at the pro era (1995 onwards)

    Ireland - Luke Fitz 19, Rhys Ruddock 19, Darcy 19
    NZ - Toeava 19, Rococoko 20, Cullen 20, Cane 20, Atiga 20, Collins 20, Guildford 20, Ralph 20, McCaw 20, Mauger 20 (also Lomu 19 1994, Wilson 20 1993, Innes 20 1989, Little 20 1990)

    Yis can check it out here.

    http://stats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/records/player/youngest_appearance.html?id=3;type=team
    http://stats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/records/player/youngest_appearance.html?id=8;type=team

    There's also Robbie Henshaw 19, Stuart Olding 19, Iain Henderson 20, Rob Kearney 20, Tommy Bowe 20 etc. I'm sure there's a lot more.


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    #657
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,279 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Stheno wrote: »
    I'd take Best over those three tbh.

    Doesnt last the 80 though. But a contender alright.


    No front row player plays 80 these days ??


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    #658
    mfceiling
    Registered Users Posts: 12,791 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    Mark Robson almost had heart failure yesterday at ringrose making his break. He out paced a second row, stepped inside a defender and threw a middling enough pass to ica. I'll be honest here and say I'd be disappointed if any player from 11 -15 on both sides couldn't have done that.


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    #659
    Utah_Saint
    Registered Users Posts: 1,789 ✭✭✭Utah_Saint


    Ringrose is not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy...


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    #660
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    It was really bad defending from Dave Foley in particular. He got himself into an awful position.

    But at the same time you have to give the kid credit. I'm sure anyone 11-15 on either side could have done that, but I'd have my doubts whether they would have done that. He kept his cool, he fixed JOD and burnt him on the inside and then he stepped Conway. He could have gone onto finish it himself really but chose the safe option.

    It was the type of play that typifies why there's a lot of excitement around him. He isn't particularly big/powerful or quick but he's a really smart player who executes the basics very well. I suppose in that respect he's a coaches dream.


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    #661
    matthew8
    Registered Users Posts: 9,599 ✭✭✭matthew8


    mfceiling wrote: »
    Mark Robson almost had heart failure yesterday at ringrose making his break. He out paced a second row, stepped inside a defender and threw a middling enough pass to ica. I'll be honest here and say I'd be disappointed if any player from 11 -15 on both sides couldn't have done that.

    That's harsh. Getting around the second row was easy and so was the 2 on 1 but he did well to find Isa, the obvious player to pass to was probably covered.


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