Munster vs Leinster buildup

aimee1 · 28-12-2015 8:25pm

slingerz wrote: »

He's not international class in a month of Sunday's.

He looked good enough against SA in November 2014. He has captained Leinster too. So he is international quality backrow.

Edit - at 7 too, not his more natural 6

slingerz · 28-12-2015 8:25pm

Leinster

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No he hasn't. He isn't the best back row at Munster. Heaslip and Sean O'Brien both demonstrated how much more they have to their game just this last weekend.

Stander will have a big fight on his hands to get an Ireland shirt unless there are injuries. Himself, POM and Ruddock may well be in a shootout for the 6 jersey or a bench spot with Henry ahead of all three of them for the bench against teams like England and Wales.

A full strength Leinster backrow of Ruddock, SOB, Heaslip up against a full strength Munster backrow of POM, TOD and CJ is a lot more competitive than lumping Copeland, JOD in there with Stander.

Hagz · 28-12-2015 8:29pm

Ruddock will start in the 6N.

He was already next in line behind POM, he's in great form and he's a pet favourite of Joe Schmidt.

Mahatma Geansai · 28-12-2015 8:35pm

Hagz wrote: »

Ruddock will start in the 6N.

He was already next in line behind POM, he's in great form and he's a pet favourite of Joe Schmidt.

Stander wasn't eligible at the time. Ruddock does have the pet favourite factor in his pocket though.

Despite unrivaled form, I think Stander will find it extremely difficult to break into the side.

Pink Fairy · 28-12-2015 8:36pm

Leinster

aimee1 wrote: »

Ruddock is far from that. He has had injury issues and just when he looked to be getting himself established with Ireland in november last year he got injured and a recurrence ruined any chance of him getting a RWC spot.

He's an average journeyman, nothing more

molloyjh · 28-12-2015 8:39pm

Pink Fairy wrote: »

He's an average journeyman, nothing more

You can't actually believe that? The guy came in at the last second against SA last year in his weakest position in the back row and shone. His form for Leinster the last few weeks has been fantastic. Anyone who has been watching the guy at all over the last year or two can clearly see he is a quality operator. Claiming he is average or a journeyman is little more than nonsense.

aimee1 · 28-12-2015 8:42pm

Pink Fairy wrote: »

He's an average journeyman, nothing more

journeyman? how do you figure that out?

swiwi_ · 28-12-2015 8:43pm

People come on now. Take off the blue and red glasses and repeat after me

"Ruddock and Stander are both good rugby players".

Sorted.

aimee1 · 28-12-2015 8:44pm

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Stander wasn't eligible at the time. Ruddock does have the pet favourite factor in his pocket though.

Despite unrivaled form, I think Stander will find it extremely difficult to break into the side.

That not Ruddocks fault. He stepped into his least favourable backrow position because of Henry's illness and was one of irelands best players on the night.

Stander doesnt have unrivalled form. Best backrow in the country over the last 2 years is jamie heaslip, by a distance.

errlloyd · 28-12-2015 8:50pm

Neil Francis

Ruddock has carried Leinster in games in the past, but I really like stander. I won't worry with either tbh.

For the record, my backrow is 6 SOB, 7 vdf, 8 Heaslip. With stander on the bench. Vdf interchangeable with Henry

28-12-2015 8:51pm

Neil Francis

aimee1 wrote: »

That not Ruddocks fault. He stepped into his least favourable backrow position because of Henry's illness and was one of irelands best players on the night.

Stander doesnt have unrivalled form. Best backrow in the country over the last 2 years is jamie heaslip, by a distance.

It's an amazing statement given Heaslip literally just demonstrated not two days ago how much more he has to his game than Stander. Baffling!

Ruddock does have plenty of work to do to convince people he is international standard, but those who watched him in the AIs and seeing what he does for Leinster will have plenty of hope that he can.

Journeyman though - seriously..

awec · 28-12-2015 8:54pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's an amazing statement given Heaslip literally just demonstrated not two days ago how much more he has to his game than Stander. Baffling!

Ah he didn't. He was very good but this is just OTT.

aimee1 · 28-12-2015 8:57pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's an amazing statement given Heaslip literally just demonstrated not two days ago how much more he has to his game than Stander. Baffling!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAJ4smlJ1jY

if heaslip isnt doing this he is having a bad game. Never mind being there abouts at the top of the tackle count practically every week, or making multiple first up carries to set the next phase up, or always in or around his ball carrier as support or the many crucial interventions he consistently makes, Hogg in Murrayfield for example.

awec · 28-12-2015 9:02pm

For what it's worth I've no issue with Ruddock at 6 as he is a very good player but if Henderson was fit he slots in there no questions asked.

Stander is an 8 I think, he should provide competition to Heaslip.

In other news, Ringrose is miles from a cap despite whatever nonsense BOD was spouting on Twitter. Even ignoring his age and lack of experience he is very small and would be eaten alive at test level. Give him a season or two to hopefully bulk a bit and sort himself at Leinster.

Mahatma Geansai · 28-12-2015 9:05pm

aimee1 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAJ4smlJ1jY

if heaslip isnt doing this he is having a bad game. Never mind being there abouts at the top of the tackle count practically every week, or making multiple first up carries to set the next phase up, or always in or around his ball carrier as support or the many crucial interventions he consistently makes, Hogg in Murrayfield for example.

Stander pretty much is top of both the tackle and carry stats every week for Munster. Stander offers the same workrate in defense but his carrying in on a whole other level.

Mahatma Geansai · 28-12-2015 9:07pm

awec wrote: »

For what it's worth I've no issue with Ruddock at 6 as he is a very good player but if Henderson was fit he slots in there no questions asked.

Stander is an 8 I think, he should provide competition to Heaslip.

In other news, Ringrose is miles from a cap despite whatever nonsense BOD was spouting on Twitter. Even ignoring his age and lack of experience he is very small and would be eaten alive at test level. Give him a season or two to hopefully bulk a bit and sort himself at Leinster.

BOD is a cheer-leader as a pundit. He was a great player, but I wouldn't put much weight in his opinion as a pundit. I highly doubt that he would hold Ringrose in such high regard had he come on the season 2/3 years ago.

flutered · 28-12-2015 9:09pm

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Stander wasn't eligible at the time. Ruddock does have the pet favourite factor in his pocket though.

Despite unrivaled form, I think Stander will find it extremely difficult to break into the side.

the irish coach do not do change easily

aimee1 · 28-12-2015 9:12pm

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Stander pretty much is top of both the tackle and carry stats every week for Munster. Stander offers the same workrate in defense but his carrying in on a whole other level.

So while Heaslip was winning 6n titles Stander was tearing it up against the dragons, zebre, treviso, cardiff and edinburgh etc

Heaslip made 20 tackles to standers 9 yesterday [espn scrum is source]. Stander's carrying is very good but Heaslip isnt Leinsters predominant ball carrier. SOB, Cronin and McGrath, Healy would be more utilised in that role.

Heaslip made the hit which gave Ryan a shot at a turnover which Leinster ran the length to score close to the posts. He also made 3 other key interventions in the Leinster 22 which led to turnovers/penalties in the second half. Moments which killed momentum that Munster had built up.

flutered · 28-12-2015 9:14pm

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

I doubt Leinster willingly let Munster have >60% possession and 70% territory yesterday. If a team is ignoring Munster's tactical kicking, surely it should be harder for Munster to gain meters with ball in hand as the defense would be set for a side which will run.

If Munster had a 10/player who could reliably kick for goal (was Murray going to kick yesterday?), there wouldn't be such a pressure to go to the corner for tries. They cannot keep the scoreboard ticking over from the boot, so there is huge pressure to push for tries. Couple that pressure to low-confidence and you've a recipe for Munster's current situation.

Leinster deserved the win yesterday because they were clinical with the chances they did get. However, Munster - despite a poor maul and the weaker scrum - controlled the game everywhere except on the scoreboard.

if a team has not a scrum then it has nothing, theat saying is as true today as when i herd it back in the mists of time

Interested Observer · 28-12-2015 9:15pm

aimee1 wrote: »

So while Heaslip was winning 6n titles Stander was tearing it up against the dragons, zebre, treviso, cardiff and edinburgh etc

Heaslip made 20 tackles to standers 9 yesterday [espn scrum is source]. Stander's carrying is very good but Heaslip isnt Leinsters predominant ball carrier. SOB, Cronin and McGrath, Healy would be more utilised in that role.

Heaslip made the hit which gave Ryan a shot at a turnover which Leinster ran the length to score close to the posts. He also made 3 other key interventions in the Leinster 22 which led to turnovers/penalties in the second half. Moments which killed momentum that Munster had built up.

Tackle counts are one thing, but Stander doesn't influence the game in defence line Heaslip does. Not even close really. He's a better ball carrier though, Heaslip wasn't used to carry at all yesterday.

Pink Fairy · 28-12-2015 9:15pm

Leinster

flutered wrote: »

if a team has not a scrum then it has nothing, theat saying is as true today as when i ....... ! herd ! ........it back in the mists of time

That's a Freudian slip I'd ever i heard one, G'wan the Bull !!

flutered · 28-12-2015 9:16pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Munster have been suffering from the same problem, ability in the red zone, for weeks now and it hasn't been fixed.

the munster set up is a retirement home for ex players, a safety net, with no threat to their income for another two years

swiwi_ · 28-12-2015 10:10pm

awec wrote: »

In other news, Ringrose is miles from a cap despite whatever nonsense BOD was spouting on Twitter. Even ignoring his age and lack of experience he is very small and would be eaten alive at test level. Give him a season or two to hopefully bulk a bit and sort himself at Leinster.

Ah dude, that's the sort of limp conservative attitude that gets Irish rugby nowhere. From what I've seen he looks very promising. In NZ, that means making at least the training squad. In Ireland, it means waiting a few more years. He looks about the same size as snakey Smith, and he did just fine at international level.

NB: Had a quick look at the pro era (1995 onwards)

Ireland - Luke Fitz 19, Rhys Ruddock 19, Darcy 19
NZ - Toeava 19, Rococoko 20, Cullen 20, Cane 20, Atiga 20, Collins 20, Guildford 20, Ralph 20, McCaw 20, Mauger 20 (also Lomu 19 1994, Wilson 20 1993, Innes 20 1989, Little 20 1990)

Yis can check it out here.

http://stats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/records/player/youngest_appearance.html?id=3;type=team
http://stats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/records/player/youngest_appearance.html?id=8;type=team

flouncer · 28-12-2015 10:25pm

swiwi_ wrote: »

Ah dude, that's the sort of limp conservative attitude that gets Irish rugby nowhere. From what I've seen he looks very promising. In NZ, that means making at least the training squad. In Ireland, it means waiting a few more years. He looks about the same size as snakey Smith, and he did just fine at international level.

All indicators would say that what awec suggests is true. Do you think o'halloran will replace rob Kearney even though he is clearly on fire these days. Do you think cian Healy will not start for Ireland (if fit) even though he has not impressed in the slightest. Does conor Murray get the call over kieran marmion even though marmion is playing out of his skin. Indeed marmion wont get ahead of reddan. Is Andrew Trimble not the best winger in Ireland (with Keith earls a close second) but likely Dave Kearney will be selected above either of them. There is a basis for feeling somewhat negative about Irish selections.

Interested Observer · 28-12-2015 10:30pm

flouncer wrote: »

All indicators would say that what awec suggests is true. Do you think o'halloran will replace rob Kearney even though he is clearly on fire these days. Do you think cian Healy will not start for Ireland (if fit) even though he has not impressed in the slightest. Does conor Murray get the call over kieran marmion even though marmion is playing out of his skin. Indeed marmion wont get ahead of reddan. Is Andrew Trimble not the best winger in Ireland (with Keith earls a close second) but likely Dave Kearney will be selected above either of them. There is a basis for feeling somewhat negative about Irish selections.

You've a collection of very strange examples there. Awec is saying Ringrose couldn't handle international rugby. Andrew Trimble is a seasoned international, so is Murray, so is Healy.

The Rape of Lucretia · 28-12-2015 10:34pm

awec wrote: »

In other news, Ringrose is miles from a cap despite whatever nonsense BOD was spouting on Twitter. Even ignoring his age and lack of experience he is very small and would be eaten alive at test level. Give him a season or two to hopefully bulk a bit and sort himself at Leinster.

Age ? 21 for the 6N. He launched Henshaw at the same age.
Lack of experience. Maybe.
6'1" and 14st. What are we looking for now ?
He looks a more darting and creative centre than Henshaw, McCloskey or Payne, with better pace and side step than all.

The Rape of Lucretia · 28-12-2015 10:41pm

flouncer wrote: »

All indicators would say that what awec suggests is true. Do you think o'halloran will replace rob Kearney even though he is clearly on fire these days.

O'Halloran is decent, but not sure that he is doing enough to deserve taking Rob's place. A factor is also what new centres may be infront of Rob. Joe will not go for wholesale changes in one go.

flouncer wrote: »

Do you think cian Healy will not start for Ireland (if fit) even though he has not impressed in the slightest.

Its quite possible Church will not start IMO.

flouncer wrote: »

Does conor Murray get the call over kieran marmion even though marmion is playing out of his skin. Indeed marmion wont get ahead of reddan.

Marmion playing out of his skin (if he is), is still sub Murray. No way in the world has Marms done anything to suggest he should be ahead of a fit Murray. Marms might just skip Redser at this juncture though.

flouncer wrote: »

Is Andrew Trimble not the best winger in Ireland (with Keith earls a close second) but likely Dave Kearney will be selected above either of them.

He is. Earlsie is not a close second though. Not even second. Fitzie is in much better form. Doubt Dave will get a look in this 6N barring injuries.

Mahatma Geansai · 28-12-2015 10:48pm

If Dave Kearney gets near any Irish squads in the near future, there is something seriously wrong.

The Rape of Lucretia · 28-12-2015 10:49pm

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

If Dave Kearney gets near any Irish squads in the near future, there is something seriously wrong.

Yes. Injuries.
I would guess all, including Joe, and Dave, and his Mum would agree with this.

flouncer · 28-12-2015 10:49pm

Interested Observer wrote: »

You've a collection of very strange examples there. Awec is saying Ringrose couldn't handle international rugby. Andrew Trimble is a seasoned international, so is Murray, so is Healy.

Thats exactly it. There will be no change. Experienced internationals over youth every time. Ok thats Irish thread stuff. That aside (and here I must apologize for my comments yesterday) I'm wondering at the lack of effectiveness of the Munster backline. Would it be fair to say that presented ball is so slow that zebo/conway/earls are rendered ineffective. I didnt like that bleyendaal wasnt given the kicking duties. Not a confidence vote and unhelpful for his future progression. If you pick him at outhalf you must at least believe in him. That wasnt shown yesterday. Even with Scannell kicking horrendously, Bleyendaal wasnt handed the reins.

Munster vs Leinster buildup

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