Munster vs Leinster buildup

The Rape of Lucretia

aimee1 wrote: »

why not great hope for Leo?

Because that would only be wishful thinking based on no evidence. He has zero coaching track record (if anything, guilt by association with the MOC regime).
However there is definitely a better style to Leinster this season, but too early to draw any conclusions.

The Rape of Lucretia

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I'm actually chuffed to see that somebody else has seen this. give Leo time and it will come good.

On what do you base this statement. For me, its impossible to state that with any authority.

aimee1

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Because that would only be wishful thinking based on no evidence. He has zero coaching track record (if anything, guilt by association with the MOC regime).
However there is definitely a better style to Leinster this season, but too early to draw any conclusions.

precisely. too early to judge him one way or the other but there is far more positives then negatives so far for me. So im going to remain positive.

irishbucsfan

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

On what do you base this statement. For me, its impossible to state that with any authority.

It will never be possible to state the potential ability of any coach or player with any authority. It's all opinion, I agree with him though, Leo has all the traits to be a great coach in the future and I have no problem drinking the koolaid until we see any evidence to the contrary.

aimee1

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

On what do you base this statement. For me, its impossible to state that with any authority.

you posted there is "no great hope for him". There is nowhere near enough evidence to give a clear judgement but the signs so far are more good then bad.

Cullen has had 3 months with this Leinster squad after 18-19 were at RWC
Lam had all summer on the back of 2 seasons out west with minimal RWC disruption
Foley had all summer and last season with Munster
Kiss has had 2 months with Ulster

former total

Leinster

Leo has done a great job so far. I don't blame him for the Wasps debacle at all, and other than that the results and performances have been decent.

I don't see any reason not to be optimistic.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

former total wrote: »

Leo has done a great job so far. I don't blame him for the Wasps debacle at all, and other than that the results and performances have been decent.

I don't see any reason not to be optimistic.

To me Leinster under Leo still look like a team finding their feet but are heading in the right direction. There's been so many changes in lineups from week to week, performances and results have varied greatly but looking at the league they're currently sitting 3rd and only 4 points off the top. They're still a good bit off being the team they used to be and perhaps they will never be that team again but as a realistic Leinster fan I'd be happy enough with what we've seen so far, European campaign aside.

Munster, on the other hand, look like a team that are a bit lost.

Interested Observer

For me the Wasps game sticks out like a sore thumb but otherwise I'm happy enough with Cullen. Toulon are just a better team and I'd no real expectation from either game, but Leinster were competitive in both.

The Bath away game was a disappointing result but Leinster could and imo should have won it.

The league has been really quite good. Beaten Ulster, Munster and Glasgow now, have had seen a lot of some of the young guys who got little or no chance under MOC, have one of the best defences in the league, and look very good to make the playoffs. All this while missing 20 players or something to the RWC.

molloyjh

Interested Observer wrote: »

For me the Wasps game sticks out like a sore thumb but otherwise I'm happy enough with Cullen. Toulon are just a better team and I'd no real expectation from either game, but Leinster were competitive in both.

The Bath away game was a disappointing result but Leinster could and imo should have won it.

The league has been really quite good. Beaten Ulster, Munster and Glasgow now, have had seen a lot of some of the young guys who got little or no chance under MOC, have one of the best defences in the league, and look very good to make the playoffs. All this while missing 20 players or something to the RWC.

And we have a game in hand.

Rightwing

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

To me Leinster under Leo still look like a team finding their feet but are heading in the right direction. There's been so many changes in lineups from week to week, performances and results have varied greatly but looking at the league they're currently sitting 3rd and only 4 points off the top. They're still a good bit off being the team they used to be and perhaps they will never be that team again but as a realistic Leinster fan I'd be happy enough with what we've seen so far, European campaign aside.

Munster, on the other hand, look like a team that are a bit lost.

Munster are in big, big trouble. I've been saying it for a while. It's a worry for Irish rugby.

mfceiling

slingerz wrote: »

I wouldn't swap Pienaar for Murray either.

But CJ stander gets in any team at the moment

Apologies...forgot about CJ. Would definitely have him ahead of Reidy, Faloon, Diack or Wilson.

Bridge93

While being admittedly biased from a Leinster point of view, the only players in the Munster squad I think I would be delighted to have are Murray, Earls, Ryan. I would happily have Stander and POM but they are not a big step up, if at all than what Leinster have already.

Interested Observer

Bridge93 wrote: »

While being admittedly biased from a Leinster point of view, the only players in the Munster squad I think I would be delighted to have are Murray, Earls, Ryan. I would happily have Stander and POM but they are not a big step up, if at all than what Leinster have already.

You can do this from any angle though, Munster fans probably would be perfectly happy with TOD for example over some of our backrow options and that's because there just isn't room in the Leinster squad for a TOD despite him being a really good player.

Mahatma Geansai

With all the doom and gloom about Munster, its worth remembering that they were the dominant side yesterday. Confidence is shot and composure in the red-zones (attack and defense) is gone, but they still managed to control possession and territory against Leinster.

There is no easy fix, but Munster aren't too far away from being a good side; they have been on top with possession/territory/meters made in their last three losses. Assuming that the issues aren't a morale issue caused by the management (I'm starting to think that it is), a couple of consistent performances from the kicking tee and a small rub of the green might be all Munster need to turn the recent losses into wins.

Confidence is the issue at present and things will only get worse until Munster win again. Considering its Ulster and Stade Francais next up, this 5 game losing streak might well become a 7 game one.

Fireball07

How disappointing was yesterday? All those clichéd words that coaches use like accuracy were sorely absent yesterday, we just weren't clinical at any part of the pitch. Not having a kicker confident to kick anything in the opposition half as Madigan was killed us too.


But how many times did we get near the 22 or inside and do absolutely nothing. Leinster were just way better at every breakdown. Losing Earls was a massive blow aswell, he was starting to make things happen.


I'd say the scoreline didn't accurately reflect the balance of play, but Leinster did deserve the win because they were able to finish their chances and we've struggled in that regard all seasons.

Mahatma Geansai

Neil Francis

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

With all the doom and gloom about Munster, its worth remembering that they were the dominant side yesterday. Confidence is shot and composure in the red-zones (attack and defense) is gone, but they still managed to control possession and territory against Leinster.

There is no easy fix, but Munster aren't too far away from being a good side; they have been on top with possession/territory/meters made in their last three losses. Assuming that the issues aren't a morale issue caused by the management (I'm starting to think that it is), a couple of consistent performances from the kicking tee and a small rub of the green might be all Munster need to turn the recent losses into wins.

Confidence is the issue at present and things will only get worse until Munster win again. Considering its Ulster and Stade Francais next up, this 5 game losing streak might well become a 7 game one.

You have to acknowledge that the reason teams keep offering possession to Munster is because they are highly predictable and easy to defend against. The reason they gain so much meters is because their tactical kicking game is ignored so they are making ground with ball in hand. These aren't always stats to be proud of.

mfceiling

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You have to acknowledge that the reason teams keep offering possession to Munster is because they are highly predictable and easy to defend against. The reason they gain so much meters is because their tactical kicking game is ignored so they are making ground with ball in hand. These aren't always stats to be proud of.

This is very true. Under Penney Munster used to crab sideways across the field and end up nowhere. Now they seem to bash it up and eventually get turned over or end up knocking on or an aimless kick to nothing.
Not having a reliable kicker is killing them. If they got 6 or 7 penalties in the opposition half you could realistically assume they might get 3 or maybe 6 points. With ROG it would be 12 points minimum.

Mahatma Geansai

Deleted User wrote: »

You have to acknowledge that the reason teams keep offering possession to Munster is because they are highly predictable and easy to defend against. The reason they gain so much meters is because their tactical kicking game is ignored so they are making ground with ball in hand. These aren't always stats to be proud of.

I doubt Leinster willingly let Munster have >60% possession and 70% territory yesterday. If a team is ignoring Munster's tactical kicking, surely it should be harder for Munster to gain meters with ball in hand as the defense would be set for a side which will run.

If Munster had a 10/player who could reliably kick for goal (was Murray going to kick yesterday?), there wouldn't be such a pressure to go to the corner for tries. They cannot keep the scoreboard ticking over from the boot, so there is huge pressure to push for tries. Couple that pressure to low-confidence and you've a recipe for Munster's current situation.

Leinster deserved the win yesterday because they were clinical with the chances they did get. However, Munster - despite a poor maul and the weaker scrum - controlled the game everywhere except on the scoreboard.

Brewster

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

I doubt Leinster willingly let Munster have >60% possession and 70% territory yesterday. If a team is ignoring Munster's tactical kicking, surely it should be harder for Munster to gain meters with ball in hand as the defense would be set for a side which will run.

If Munster had a 10/player who could reliably kick for goal (was Murray going to kick yesterday?), there wouldn't be such a pressure to go to the corner for tries. They cannot keep the scoreboard ticking over from the boot, so there is huge pressure to push for tries. Couple that pressure to low-confidence and you've a recipe for Munster's current situation.

Leinster deserved the win yesterday because they were clinical with the chances they did get. However, Munster - despite a poor maul and the weaker scrum - controlled the game everywhere except on the scoreboard.

The only place Munster controlled the game was in the territory and possession stakes. Ultimately this counts for little. In every facet of the game that actually matters, Leinster were comfortably the better team namely the scrum, line out, breakdown, maul, ability to make a line break, tackle completion. Munster scored what id call a very unorthodox try, other than this they really didn't threaten Leinster's line that much.

aimee1

Brewster wrote: »

The only place Munster controlled the game was in the territory and possession stakes. Ultimately this counts for little. In every facet of the game that actually matters, Leinster were comfortably the better team namely the scrum, line out, breakdown, maul, ability to make a line break, tackle completion. Munster scored what id call a very unorthodox try, other than this they really didn't threaten Leinster's line that much.

A kicker who nailed his kicks was another area which is a glaring issue for munster at this stage. If they cant take kicks at goal, and the lineout/maul doesnt work then they are in trouble. Thats basics.

thomond2006

Munster have been suffering from the same problem, ability in the red zone, for weeks now and it hasn't been fixed.

The Rape of Lucretia

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

With all the doom and gloom about Munster, its worth remembering that they were the dominant side yesterday.
Confidence is the issue at present

Dominant ???
What game were you watching ? Only score was a try that should have been disallowed. Little or no real scoring threat from forwards, backs, and not to mention from the kicking tee.

Confidence is low. But with justification. It is not a co tributor to the low performance, it is a consequence.
3 or 4 high quality players could make the difference, and will come along some day. But at the moment they just arent there or even on the horizon. Little Foley can do about that and he is playing with the cards he is dealt.

KingBrian2

Neil Francis

Watched yesterday. Great game. Belated reaction but yeah go Leinster. Enjoyed that match in particular the last 8 minutes, constant defending and would you look at that interception try. :cool:

slingerz

Leinster

aimee1 wrote: »

Ruddock, SOB, Heaslip at leinster. Thats an international backrow. For me Stander doesnt get into that backrow.

He most definitely does. Ruddock is a journeyman if ever there was

slingerz

Leinster

Bridge93 wrote: »

While being admittedly biased from a Leinster point of view, the only players in the Munster squad I think I would be delighted to have are Murray, Earls, Ryan. I would happily have Stander and POM but they are not a big step up, if at all than what Leinster have already.

POM gets in any side in the country.

Mahatma Geansai

slingerz wrote: »

He most definitely does. Ruddock is a journeyman if ever there was

That's not fair on Ruddock. He is a very good player. However, Stander, although not Irish, has been the best backrow in the country over the last 18 months or so.

Mahatma Geansai

Neil Francis

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

has been the best backrow in the country over the last 18 months or so.

No he hasn't. He isn't the best back row at Munster. Heaslip and Sean O'Brien both demonstrated how much more they have to their game just this last weekend.

Stander will have a big fight on his hands to get an Ireland shirt unless there are injuries. Himself, POM and Ruddock may well be in a shootout for the 6 jersey or a bench spot with Henry ahead of all three of them for the bench against teams like England and Wales.

aimee1

slingerz wrote: »

He most definitely does. Ruddock is a journeyman if ever there was

Ruddock is far from that. He has had injury issues and just when he looked to be getting himself established with Ireland in november last year he got injured and a recurrence ruined any chance of him getting a RWC spot.

Interested Observer

I reckon Ruddock will start at 6 in the 6N if he's fit. Has put in good performances at international level, is a natural 6, and one thing very much in his favour is he's very very good in the lineout which is one of POM's major roles in the team, so he comes closest to filling that gap.

slingerz

Leinster

aimee1 wrote: »

Ruddock is far from that. He has had injury issues and just when he looked to be getting himself established with Ireland in november last year he got injured and a recurrence ruined any chance of him getting a RWC spot.

He's not international class in a month of Sunday's.