Breastfeeding Mom in restaurant stare off...

lazygal · 06-12-2015 10:54PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It's a fairly safe assumption all the same. There's generally no necessity to expose the whole breast in the manner in which this woman has done.

I understand of course that she was trying to make a point about people's attitudes to breastfeeding in public, but the facts speak for themselves when she could only find one woman to have a stare-down with while she was feeding her baby.

Her attitude IMO is incredibly immature.

Again, you're telling us how to breastfeed despite never having done it yourself. How do you happen to know how breastfeeding every child and toddler works for every woman? Because you think it should work that way?

One eyed Jack · 06-12-2015 10:58PM

sup_dude wrote: »

What? How is it not better? How can people not being judged for something that needs to happen and happens for a very specific reason, be the better option?

Is there some necessity in Western society for women to breastfeed in public?

I don't think there is, and I don't think people actually care all that much either, certainly not as much as some people would want them to, which is why women who make a point of themselves breastfeeding in public on social media merely come off as attention seekers to me personally.

People who have issues with breast feeding not being covered up are the people with the problem.

Couldn't they say the very same thing about you though? That if you have issues with being asked to breastfeed discreetly, that you're the one with the problem if you have a problem with being asked to be discreet while breastfeeding in public?

Your arguments are getting weaker and weaker. We should go back to women not voting because why is women voting better? We should also abolish SSM again because why is that better? In fact, we should all judge people for being gay because how is that not better than not judging them. There are places in the world where child labour is the norm but I guess we shouldn't bother getting rid of that either because why is it any better?

Those are totally different issues with their own contexts, can we at least try to stick to discussing breastfeeding in public in Western society?

Wibbs · 06-12-2015 11:01PM

sup_dude wrote: »

So what if the whole breast is exposed? It's not in any way sexual and those who think otherwise have quite the twisted mind.

T'is a funny one SD. "Naked" and "Sexual" is extremely cultural in nature. In extremis we have Amazonian tribes where both men and women are to use an Americanism naked as jaybirds, save for a thin string belt on the ladies and a penis sheath on the gentlemen. We're talking fannies and bewbs and balls in plain view. However, if a woman takes off her thin belt she is seen as "sexual" and "shameful", ditto for the the men who take of their penis sheaths. It's a fascinating area of human psychology and sexuality actually. We're a species that invented fetish as part of our reproduction.

lazygal · 06-12-2015 11:01PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Is there some necessity in Western society for women to breastfeed in public?

I don't think there is, and I don't think people actually care all that much either, certainly not as much as some people would want them to, which is why women who make a point of themselves breastfeeding in public on social media merely come off as attention seekers to me personally.

Couldn't they say the very same thing about you though? That if you have issues with being asked to breastfeed discreetly, that you're the one with the problem if you have a problem with being asked to be discreet while breastfeeding in public?

Those are totally different issues with their own contexts, can we at least try to stick to discussing breastfeeding in public in Western society?

So women like me should only breastfeed in private. If I'd gone along with this "advice" I wouldn't have been outside my house with my children for three and a half years. Stop digging, One Eyed Jack. Breastfeeding in public is perfectly legal and if you've some whacky ideas about whipping out breasts and telling women to be discrete about feeding a baby that says more about how out of kilter some people's views on normal feeding of babies and toddlers is.

jam_mac_jam · 06-12-2015 11:02PM

Jesus Christ. They are only tits, even if they are whipping them out which most women don't anyway. why would you care its as much as you would see on a beach in most of Europe. I honestly can't understand why it would bother anyone. The child needs to eat if it upsets you look away.

jam_mac_jam · 06-12-2015 11:04PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Is there some necessity in Western society for women to breastfeed in public?

I don't think there is, and I don't think people actually care all that much either, certainly not as much as some people would want them to, which is why women who make a point of themselves breastfeeding in public on social media merely come off as attention seekers to me personally.

Couldn't they say the very same thing about you though? That if you have issues with being asked to breastfeed discreetly, that you're the one with the problem if you have a problem with being asked to be discreet while breastfeeding in public?

Those are totally different issues with their own contexts, can we at least try to stick to discussing breastfeeding in public in Western society?

Yes there is a necessity, they have a hungry baby. So it is necessary to feed the baby. Fairly straight forward I should think. or should women stay in private until the baby is weened.

Ave Sodalis · 06-12-2015 11:05PM

One eyed Jack wrote:

Is there some necessity in Western society for women to breastfeed in public?

Yes. Babies need to be fed and that question and your reply to your iwn question just shows your ignorance on the topic.

One eyed Jack wrote:

I don't think there is, and I don't think people actually care all that much either, certainly not as much as some people would want them to, which is why women who make a point of themselves breastfeeding in public on social media merely come off as attention seekers to me personally.

But this thread shows in a very clear light that people do care. It's not a case of "I don't see it therefore it doesn't exist". There have been multiple posts on this thread alone saying how they think women should cover up and be discrete when breast feeding. Why should they? What's wrong with it? Why do people feel offended by it? Why should a woman be discrete when breast feeding?

One eyed Jack wrote:

Couldn't they say the very same thing about you though? That if you have issues with being asked to breastfeed discreetly, that you're the one with the problem if you have a problem with being asked to be discreet while breastfeeding in public?

No, again, your post is completely devoid of logic and is almost becoming victim blaming if it was applied to other contexts.

One eyed Jack wrote:

Those are totally different issues with their own contexts, can we at least try to stick to discussing breastfeeding in public in Western society?

But your logic can be applied in the exact same way here. But because it doesn't add up here, you're just going to ignore it.

lazygal · 06-12-2015 11:06PM

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Yes there is a necessity, they have a hungry baby. So it is necessary to feed the baby. Fairly straight forward I should think. or should women stay in private until the baby is weened.

WHO guidelines are to feed until two years of age. So if you followed that and had a few children close in age you'd be years at home feeding discretely without exposing more than a nipple.

One eyed Jack · 06-12-2015 11:07PM

lazygal wrote: »

Again, you're telling us how to breastfeed despite never having done it yourself. How do you happen to know how breastfeeding every child and toddler works for every woman? Because you think it should work that way?

I'm not telling anyone how to breastfeed their own children if I make an observation that it's generally not something that's done in public, and it's certainly not something that's done in public with the whole breast exposed. If the woman in the OP wants to expose her whole breast while she's breastfeeding, then she's creating issues for herself, and she is fully aware of this fact.

It's also a fact that most people never got the memo that it's rude to stare at other people, but a fair few of them seem to be of the attitude that if someone doesn't like being stared at, that's their problem.

Some people are just inconsiderate, but most people in society are able to be rational about these things and don't seek to take offense at every opportunity, nor do they seek to cause offense at every opportunity for a few likes on social media.

XR3i · 06-12-2015 11:08PM

big breast, small baby

lazygal · 06-12-2015 11:10PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'm not telling anyone how to breastfeed their own children if I make an observation that it's generally not something that's done in public, and it's certainly not something that's done in public with the whole breast exposed. If the woman in the OP wants to expose her whole breast while she's breastfeeding, then she's creating issues for herself, and she is fully aware of this fact.

It's also a fact that most people never got the memo that it's rude to stare at other people, but a fair few of them seem to be of the attitude that if someone doesn't like being stared at, that's their problem.

Some people are just inconsiderate, but most people in society are able to be rational about these things and don't seek to take offense at every opportunity, nor do they seek to cause offense at every opportunity for a few likes on social media.

You think she's doing breastfeeding wrong. How she feeds might just work for her and her child. Sometimes my toddler wants to feed lying down, or hold onto one breast while feeding from the other. Just because you don't generally see feeding done a certain way doesn't mean this woman was doing breastfeeding wrong.

jam_mac_jam · 06-12-2015 11:10PM

lazygal wrote: »

WHO guidelines are to feed until two years of age. So if you followed that and had a few children close in age you'd be years at home feeding discretely without exposing more than a nipple.

Exactly, I can't see you not having a hungry child outside for two years as quite stupid. The idea that you can restrict feeding a child to in private is laughable. why should you either, its the problem of those who disagree with it really.

Ave Sodalis · 06-12-2015 11:11PM

One eyed Jack wrote:

If the woman in the OP wants to expose her whole breast while she's breastfeeding, then she's creating issues for herself, and she is fully aware of this fact.

That's an awful attitude to have. Woman should also not wear short skirts because if she does, she could be raped.. but if she is, then it's own problem for wearing the short skirt becausd she should have known and she should wear trousers in future.

One eyed Jack · 06-12-2015 11:18PM

lazygal wrote: »

You think she's doing breastfeeding wrong. How she feeds might just work for her and her child. Sometimes my toddler wants to feed lying down, or hold onto one breast while feeding from the other. Just because you don't generally see feeding done a certain way doesn't mean this woman was doing breastfeeding wrong.

I think you're being very unfair there if your only point is that I observed that there was a better way for the woman to breastfeed. I wasn't the only person who said she should pull the top up, rather than trying to pull her breast out over the neckline of the top.

Of course that's naturally going to look more unusual than a woman who is breastfeeding discreetly, rather than this woman who is "I see someone staring at me, take a picture of me staring them down" (someone else obviously took the picture).

lazygal · 06-12-2015 11:21PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I think you're being very unfair there if your only point is that I observed that there was a better way for the woman to breastfeed. I wasn't the only person who said she should pull the top up, rather than trying to pull her breast out over the neckline of the top.

Of course that's naturally going to look more unusual than a woman who is breastfeeding discreetly, rather than this woman who is "I see someone staring at me, take a picture of me staring them down" (someone else obviously took the picture).

Again, you don't know there's a "better" way for her to feed. Even thinking that you know better than the woman and child who are feeding what works for them speaks volumes. I'm sure if you saw my two year old feeding you'd think we're doing it wrong. But it works for us. Why would you need to tell someone how to improve something they're doing just fine?

tayto lover · 06-12-2015 11:23PM

I don't care a bit that she was breastfeeding or exposing herself.
She was in my opinion spoiling for a row and that's the nub of the issue.

One eyed Jack · 06-12-2015 11:25PM

sup_dude wrote: »

That's an awful attitude to have. Woman should also not wear short skirts because if she does, she could be raped.. but if she is, then it's own problem for wearing the short skirt becausd she should have known and she should wear trousers in future.

Clearly in different contexts, different rules are going to apply, so I wouldn't apply those same rules in the same context you would. I was more thinking along the lines that I get stared at all the time for my various physical disabilities, and I can either get upset by that and go around telling everyone to "stop staring at meeee!", or I can accept that it's going to happen, and the bigger a deal I make of it, the worse I'll make it for myself.

Some adults think it's their given right to stare at people, it's one of those things that adults learn to accept as a fact of life.

suicide_circus · 06-12-2015 11:29PM

Attention sought.
Attention gained.

Ave Sodalis · 06-12-2015 11:30PM

One eyed Jack wrote:

Clearly in different contexts, different rules are going to apply, so I wouldn't apply those same rules in the same context you would. I was more thinking along the lines that I get stared at all the time for my various physical disabilities, and I can either get upset by that and go around telling everyone to "stop staring at meeee!", or I can accept that it's going to happen, and the bigger a deal I make of it, the worse I'll make it for myself.

Nope, exact same logic in both contexts. I have no problem with not staring at disabled people. They're not zoo animals. Why can't a society strive to stop it, especially when it has been stopped in other countries? Out of those staring, how many are judging?

ThinkProgress · 06-12-2015 11:31PM

So, if a woman was to expose her breast in a swanky restaurant with no child present, it would be considered highly disrespectful and uncivilized. Most establishments would likely request you to leave.

But if there is a child present, it automatically becomes perfectly legitimate and even normal behavior? Sorry, but this is where my brain gets confused with matters of social etiquette.

In my opinion, it should either be socially acceptable for a woman to have her breasts on view... or it should be not socially acceptable. Why all the flip flopping around?

If a female breast is deemed worthy of covering up for matters of modesty... then why should modesty go out the window just because your child needs to eat?

I don't buy into the notion that one scenario can be considered uncivilized while the other scenario is completely the opposite.

Ave Sodalis · 06-12-2015 11:33PM

ThinkProgress wrote:

But if there is a child present, it automatically becomes perfectly legitimate and even normal behavior? Sorry, but this is where my brain gets confused with matters of social etiquette.

Because one is done in a sexual, attention seeking way. The other is done to feed a child.

ThinkProgress wrote:

If a female breast is deemed worthy of covering up for matters of modesty... then why should modesty go out the window just because your child needs to eat?

Because the child needs to eat and that is how it eats.

lazygal · 06-12-2015 11:35PM

ThinkProgress wrote: »

So, if a woman was to expose her breast in a swanky restaurant with no child present, it would be considered highly disrespectful and uncivilized. Most establishments would likely request you to leave.

But if there is a child present, it automatically becomes perfectly legitimate and even normal behavior? Sorry, but this is where my brain gets confused with matters of social etiquette.

In my opinion, it should either be socially acceptable for a woman to have her breasts on view... or it should be not socially acceptable. Why all the flip flopping around?

If a female breast is deemed worthy of covering up for matters of modesty... then why should modesty go out the window just because your child needs to eat?

I don't buy into the notion that one scenario can be considered uncivilized while the other scenario is completely the opposite.

Breastfeeding is necessary. A baby or child who's breastfeeding needs to do so on demand. Its how it works biologically.

It really shows how little people understand about the normal way to feed children that they think breastfeeding is more about showing off your body than feeding your child is the way that's tailor made for them.

One eyed Jack · 06-12-2015 11:39PM

lazygal wrote: »

Again, you don't know there's a "better" way for her to feed. Even thinking that you know better than the woman and child who are feeding what works for them speaks volumes. I'm sure if you saw my two year old feeding you'd think we're doing it wrong. But it works for us. Why would you need to tell someone how to improve something they're doing just fine?

You don't know either that they're doing "just fine", because you can't read babies minds...

Yes, I know that's a stupid argument, but it has as much validity as your own in suggesting that she's doing it in a way that suits the baby either.

I won't quote your other post but I never suggested anyone hide away and breastfeed in private either. Christ I'm not so black and white as that. I've already said I've no issue with women breastfeeding in public, I've no issue with women exposing their breasts in public, I just don't particularly care.

What I have an issue with, is people complaining because people are staring at them for doing something unusual in public. Unusual because it is uncommon.

sup_dude I'm far from ignorant on the topic. Here in the West we have these incredible little gadgets called breast pumps, and you can put the breast milk in bottles and take it with you in your changing bag along with all the other stuff a baby night need when they're out.

06-12-2015 11:41PM

sup_dude wrote: »

If it reasonably makes people feels inadequate/uncomfortable, no.

Couldn't you say the exact same thing for breastfeeding?

As an aside, I don't mind breastfeeding. I remember approaching two women before to take their photo (im a photographer) and was making small talk for 2-3 mins with them before i went to take the photo, at which point one of them asked could i wait til they were finished breastfeeding. I was literally standing talking to her for 2-3 minutes and didn't notice she was breastfeeding a child.

If this woman could be that discreet, I'm pretty sure big juggs from the OP didn't quite need to be so 'in your face' with the way in which she was doing it. I'd agree with earlier posters that she was just looking for attention.

Kev W · 06-12-2015 11:41PM

ThinkProgress wrote: »

So, if a woman was to expose her breast in a swanky restaurant with no child present, it would be considered highly disrespectful and uncivilized. Most establishments would likely request you to leave.

But if there is a child present, it automatically becomes perfectly legitimate and even normal behavior? Sorry, but this is where my brain gets confused with matters of social etiquette.

In my opinion, it should either be socially acceptable for a woman to have her breasts on view... or it should be not socially acceptable. Why all the flip flopping around?

If a female breast is deemed worthy of covering up for matters of modesty... then why should modesty go out the window just because your child needs to eat?

I don't buy into the notion that one scenario can be considered uncivilized while the other scenario is completely the opposite.

So what you're telling us here is that you don't understand the concept of context.

eviltwin · 06-12-2015 11:41PM

One Eye, you know I love you and think you're sound but by God you are sounding like an awfully prudish fuddy duddy on this thread. Its just a breast, the rare occassion you see more than you want just turn your gaze elsewhere. Let the woman get on with feeding her child in peace. Even if you do happen to see a nipple or whatever so what?

Ave Sodalis · 06-12-2015 11:42PM

One eyed Jack wrote:

sup_dude I'm far from ignorant on the topic. Here in the West we have these incredible little gadgets called breast pumps, and you can put the breast milk in bottles and take it with you in your changing bag along with all the other stuff a baby night need when they're out.

Then it might surprise you to learn that it can be difficult to get a breast fed baby to bottle feed, even if it's breast milk. Even if they can, why should they?

MadsL · 06-12-2015 11:42PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Is there some necessity in Western society for women to breastfeed in public?

I don't think there is, and I don't think people actually care all that much either, certainly not as much as some people would want them to, which is why women who make a point of themselves breastfeeding in public on social media merely come off as attention seekers to me personally.

Couldn't they say the very same thing about you though? That if you have issues with being asked to breastfeed discreetly, that you're the one with the problem if you have a problem with being asked to be discreet while breastfeeding in public?

Those are totally different issues with their own contexts, can we at least try to stick to discussing breastfeeding in public in Western society?

Hope you don't find it off topic but are you also opposed to topless beaches, naked mixed saunas and naked people at music festivals?

lazygal · 06-12-2015 11:43PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You don't know either that they're doing "just fine", because you can't read babies minds...

Yes, I know that's a stupid argument, but it has as much validity as your own in suggesting that she's doing it in a way that suits the baby either.

I won't quote your other post but I never suggested anyone hide away and breastfeed in private either. Christ I'm not so black and white as that. I've already said I've no issue with women breastfeeding in public, I've no issue with women exposing their breasts in public, I just don't particularly care.

What I have an issue with, is people complaining because people are staring at them for doing something unusual in public. Unusual because it is uncommon.

sup_dude I'm far from ignorant on the topic. Here in the West we have these incredible little gadgets called breast pumps, and you can put the breast milk in bottles and take it with you in your changing bag along with all the other stuff a baby night need when they're out.

Wow now you've moved into telling us to pump and bottle feed! Why on earth would I bother spending loads of time pumping and sterilizing bottles and bottle feeding when I could just breastfeed without the hassle?
Once again your lack of knowledge of what breastfeeding involves is obvious. Mine son refused all bottles. And I only ever got an ounce or so while pumping. Not to mention the time involved.
I'd have more respect for your views if you didn't constantly offset your issues with women breastfeeding with "advice" on how they should do it properly.

mynameis905 · 06-12-2015 11:43PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

My consultants have no experience of what it's like to be blind in one eye, nor to have a gammy hip, but I'll trust their judgement and their knowledge and their education any day over my own, because they know what they're talking about, even if they have never experienced it for themselves.

I don't have to have breastfed to know how it works, I have a fair idea already.

The comparison is ridiculous. A consultant ophthalmologist or rheumatologist will have completed medical school, a few years of hospital training and a further 4-5 years of specialised training in their field. Comparing their knowledge, expertise & clinical experience to your personal anecdotes and malformed ideas about breastfeeding is laughable.

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

We have this exact thread every few months. You'll have one person continuously using terms like "whipping them out" when there's no evidence anyone actually feeds a baby in public like that.
It's the breastfeeding equivalent of the "I'm not a racist but..." argument. Just admit you don't like women breastfeeding in public.

Nail, hammer, head.

Except they can't admit it. The second they do they lose all credibility and by extension, the argument. The problem is that the misogynists, bigots and homophobes have never really gone away - they've just developed an interesting strategy in obfuscating issues to hide their ideals behind a veneer of respectability.

'I'm not against breastfeeding but women shouldn't whip the whole tit out in public'

'I'm not against homosexuality but they shouldn't be having public displays of affection'

'I'm not against gay marriage but won't someone please think of the children?'

And on and on and on ad nauseam.

Breastfeeding Mom in restaurant stare off...

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