Breastfeeding Mom in restaurant stare off...

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ThinkProgress

sup_dude wrote: »

Because one is done in a sexual, attention seeking way. The other is done to feed a child.



Because the child needs to eat and that is how it eats.

But you are looking at it in a very black and white manner. Breasts are a symbol of both things at the same time. They don't stop being a one or the other, just because you want them to be.

Obviously a nursing mother is probably viewing her breasts in only one way in that moment. But everyone else doesn't have that luxury.

You can't expect random people out in the public to be in the exact same mental state as a nursing mother at that exact moment in time...

lazygal

ThinkProgress wrote: »

But you are looking at it in a very black and white manner. Breasts are a symbol of both things at the same time. They don't stop being a one or the other, just because you want them to be.

Obviously a nursing mother is probably viewing her breasts in only one way in that moment. But everyone else doesn't have that luxury.

You can't expect random people out in the public to be in the exact same mental state as a nursing mother at that exact moment in time...

There's something a bit off if you think a baby being fed is sexual in any way.

Kev W

ThinkProgress wrote: »

But you are looking at it in a very black and white manner. Breasts are a symbol of both things at the same time. They don't stop being a one or the other, just because you want them to be.

Obviously a nursing mother is probably viewing her breasts in only one way in that moment. But everyone else doesn't have that luxury.

You can't expect random people out in the public to be in the exact same mental state as a nursing mother at that exact moment in time...

You can expect them to be respectful. Or is that too much?

ceadaoin.

sup_dude wrote: »

Then it might surprise you to learn that it can be difficult to get a breast fed baby to bottle feed, even if it's breast milk. Even if they can, why should they?

As well as that, its not too easy to produce milk with a pump either, often you'd be lucky to get a bottles worth. The body is primed to provide milk for a child, not a plastic contraption.

Ave Sodalis

ThinkProgress wrote:

You can't expect random people out in the public to be in the exact same mental state as a nursing mother at that exact moment in time...

Anyone who thinks a mother breastfeeding their child is sexual is a twisted individual in my opinion. Yes you can differentiate between boobs being sexual and boobs being practical. It's very immature and/or prudish if you can't.

jimdublin15

ThinkProgress wrote: »

So, if a woman was to expose her breast in a swanky restaurant with no child present, it would be considered highly disrespectful and uncivilized. Most establishments would likely request you to leave.

But if there is a child present, it automatically becomes perfectly legitimate and even normal behavior? Sorry, but this is where my brain gets confused with matters of social etiquette.

In my opinion, it should either be socially acceptable for a woman to have her breasts on view... or it should be not socially acceptable. Why all the flip flopping around?

If a female breast is deemed worthy of covering up for matters of modesty... then why should modesty go out the window just because your child needs to eat?

I don't buy into the notion that one scenario can be considered uncivilized while the other scenario is completely the opposite.

The flip flopping around, is attitudes in society are always changing and developing and we can hope and try to shape them for the better. Saying that we always have people with different opinions and that is the one thing that is never going to change, I don't think you will find any subject or topic with a 100% agreement rate in society.

I disagree with the modesty part and the swanky restaurant. If a woman on a date in a swanky restaurant get her breasts out as foreplay or fun as example it's a very different context than feeding once dependent baby. So i see no reason for anyone to cover up when feeding babies, i think it's good other kids see and learn from it. That's how babies are fed.

That said the lady in the OP posted story she is sitting in a public cafe / diner and out of all the patrons in the place, 1 woman allegedly had a different point of view and looked at her. I think breastfeeding mum's response is over the top and counter productive, I think a better response would be to have continued as normal feeding her baby and ignored the 1 sole woman who's negative opinion was in the tiny minority within the restaurant. To be honest to me the story sounds some what attention seeking and staged and it's creating a drama out of nothing.

ceadaoin.

ThinkProgress wrote: »

But you are looking at it in a very black and white manner. Breasts are a symbol of both things at the same time. They don't stop being a one or the other, just because you want them to be.

Obviously a nursing mother is probably viewing her breasts in only one way in that moment. But everyone else doesn't have that luxury.

You can't expect random people out in the public to be in the exact same mental state as a nursing mother at that exact moment in time...

Are you saying you would get aroused in public if you saw a flash of breast while a mother was breastfeeding in a totally not sexual manner? That's just weird.

If that was the case that would be your problem, not the fault of the woman using her breasts in the way they were intended.

One eyed Jack

eviltwin wrote: »

One Eye, you know I love you and think you're sound but by God you are sounding like an awfully prudish fuddy duddy on this thread. Its just a breast, the rare occassion you see more than you want just turn your gaze elsewhere. Let the woman get on with feeding her child in peace. Even if you do happen to see a nipple or whatever so what?

But I already do eviltwin in fairness. I don't and have never gotten upset or offended or think bad of a woman breastfeeding in public. I'd notice if she had her top off and was alternating between breasts but hey, whatcha gonna do, and I would instantly leap to her defense if someone else tried to make her feel bad for breastfeeding in public (though she may object to me being sexist and tell me she can stand up for herself, I'll take that risk)...

But, what I absolutely cannot stand, is someone doing something unusual, and then complaining because she's being stared at, so what does she do? Has her friend take a pic of her staring off into the distance while breastfeeding like she's staring someone else down...

I just can't take that seriously, and I wouldn't encourage that kind of attitude is all. No problem with her breastfeeding, big problem with her attitude is all.

eviltwin

Breasts are sexual and I wouldn't expect anyone to be able to switch that off just like that but come on, we can all exercise a bit of self control and maturity can't we?

lazygal

One eyed Jack wrote: »

But I already do eviltwin in fairness. I don't and have never gotten upset or offended or think bad of a woman breastfeeding in public. I'd notice if she had her top off and was alternating between breasts but hey, whatcha gonna do, and I would instantly leap to her defense if someone else tried to make her feel bad for breastfeeding in public (though she may object to me being sexist and tell me she can stand up for herself, I'll take that risk)...

But, what I absolutely cannot stand, is someone doing something unusual, and then complaining because she's being stared at, so what does she do? Has her friend take a pic of her staring off into the distance while breastfeeding like she's staring someone else down...

I just can't take that seriously, and I wouldn't encourage that kind of attitude is all. No problem with her breastfeeding, big problem with her attitude is all.

What exactly is so unusual about breastfeeding a child that entails needing to pump and feed artificially or feed in a manner that involves exposing no more than a nipple?

eviltwin

One eyed Jack wrote: »

But I already do eviltwin in fairness. I don't and have never gotten upset or offended or think bad of a woman breastfeeding in public. I'd notice if she had her top off and was alternating between breasts but hey, whatcha gonna do, and I would instantly leap to her defense if someone else tried to make her feel bad for breastfeeding in public (though she may object to me being sexist and tell me she can stand up for herself, I'll take that risk)...

But, what I absolutely cannot stand, is someone doing something unusual, and then complaining because she's being stared at, so what does she do? Has her friend take a pic of her staring off into the distance while breastfeeding like she's staring someone else down...

I just can't take that seriously, and I wouldn't encourage that kind of attitude is all. No problem with her breastfeeding, big problem with her attitude is all.

And I would agree with everything you just said if you were directing your comments towards this particular person but you are commenting that "women should" or "why don't women" so even if you aren't including 99.9% of breastfeeders in that it sounds like you are and that is part of the reason we have such ****ty attitudes to breast feeding in this country and are bottom of the breastfeeding league tables.

LETHAL LADY

As a side point my 7 year old boy came in all embarrassed a few weeks ago and asked me if breastfeeding was real. He'd seen the ads on telly for formula and just couldn't make sense of it all in his own head. :pac:

One eyed Jack

eviltwin wrote: »

And I would agree with everything you just said if you were directing your comments towards this particular person but you are commenting that "women should" or "why don't women" so even if you aren't including 99.9% of breastfeeders in that it sounds like you are and that is part of the reason we have such ****ty attitudes to breast feeding in this country and are bottom of the breastfeeding league tables.

Ok well I didn't mean to come across like that, I just meant what i was saying to come across as alternative suggestions, they're not ideal obviously and we were all raised on the breast is best mantra, and until my wife couldn't breastfeed (it just wasn't happening, between the two of them), I'd only ever heard of it, and we had to try all sorts of alternatives and she felt like she was being judged by everyone because according to her, she couldn't do what seemed like for every other mother the most natural thing in the world. She had to bite her tongue more times when she felt like screaming, because of course a plastic teat is shyte in comparison fo what is most natural. What she didn't do was make a big song and dance about it and expect other people should be considerate of the fact she couldn't breastfeed and all the rest of it.

The real reason IMO we have such shítty attitudes to breastfeeding in this country is because for so many women it actually isn't the most natural thing in the world, it's a long, frustrating, painful and emotionally draining process that can leave a woman feeling like a failure as a mother if it just isn't happening for her. It just comes off as yet another competitive sport among women at times, which is why aa much as I'd like to see women being encouraged to breastfeed, I hate the way some women feel like they deserve a clap on the back for it.

mynameis905

One eyed Jack wrote: »

But I already do eviltwin in fairness. I don't and have never gotten upset or offended or think bad of a woman breastfeeding in public.

You obviously do. Earlier you were criticising women who breast fed over their top rather than under with your nonsense about their being a 'correct' way to breastfeed a child. You also suggested that women should use a pump prior to going out. Now you're completely ok with breastfeeding in public?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

and I would instantly leap to her defense if someone else tried to make her feel bad for breastfeeding in public

Unlikely, unless your real life persona is the complete opposite of your posting style online.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

(though she may object to me being sexist and tell me she can stand up for herself, I'll take that risk)

You just couldn't resist getting that dig in and discrediting the woman, could you?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

But, what I absolutely cannot stand, is someone doing something unusual, and then complaining because she's being stared at, so what does she do?

But, but, but I thought you had no problem with breastfeeding? I would have thought that a practise like breastfeeding that millions of women around the world do on a daily basis could hardly be considered 'unusual'

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No problem with her breastfeeding, big problem with her attitude is all.

Sure...

ThinkProgress

sup_dude wrote: »

Anyone who thinks a mother breastfeeding their child is sexual is a twisted individual in my opinion. Yes you can differentiate between boobs being sexual and boobs being practical. It's very immature and/or prudish if you can't.

I never said the act of breastfeeding was sexual. (people on this forum really love jumping the gun wherever possible:rolleyes:)

Breasts are are a sexual symbol... just because you have a baby present, doesn't mean that everybody can just flick a switch and view your breasts as nothing more than udders on a cow!

I really don't think our brains function like that. I personally don't have any problem with public breastfeeding. It doesn't really bother me. I'm certainly not visibly offended by it in any manner.

I'm just questioning the logic that WE AS SOCIETY (of somewhat reformed monkeys), have managed to make breasts into something that should be covered up and hidden in polite society....

And we can really see the stupidity of that kind of social conditioning, when you look at a subject like this. And people are still getting hoodwinked by it right now, in this thread... while parroting out BS like context etc.

We are brainwashed to see things a certain way. And that process never stops... it merely changes shape occasionally.

People are also very dishonest in these situations too. They say what it is they're expected to say. If society says you should view the breasts of a nursing mother as non-sexual... then that's what most cowards will parrot out.

FOR PEOPLE THAT LIKE TO MISREAD I'LL REPEAT IN CAPS - I'M NOT SAYING BABIES OR BREASTFEEDING ARE SEXUAL. (wind your necks in) :P

eviltwin

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Ok well I didn't mean to come across like that, I just meant what i was saying to come across as alternative suggestions, they're not ideal obviously and we were all raised on the breast is best mantra, and until my wife couldn't breastfeed (it just wasn't happening, between the two of them), I'd only ever heard of it, and we had to try all sorts of alternatives and she felt like she was being judged by everyone because according to her, she couldn't do what seemed like for every other mother the most natural thing in the world. She had to bite her tongue more times when she felt like screaming, because of course a plastic teat is shyte in comparison fo what is most natural. What she didn't do was make a big song and dance about it and expect other people should be considerate of the fact she couldn't breastfeed and all the rest of it.

The real reason IMO we have such shítty attitudes to breastfeeding in this country is because for so many women it actually isn't the most natural thing in the world, it's a long, frustrating, painful and emotionally draining process that can leave a woman feeling like a failure as a mother if it just isn't happening for her. It just comes off as yet another competitive sport among women at times, which is why aa much as I'd like to see women being encouraged to breastfeed, I hate the way some women feel like they deserve a clap on the back for it.

Well breast is best, there is no way a synthetic milk can replace breast milk. Formula is fine, nothing wrong with it but its never going to be the same as the real thing. And I'm not a breast feeding fanatic, only one of my kids was breast fed and only for a few weeks. I would have been very similar to your wife, no support in the hospital, no friends or family with children to help, no money to pay for a lactation consultant so some people are doomed from the start but the women who do succeed should be given all the help and support they need in order to facilitate it imo.

Ave Sodalis

ThinkProgress wrote:

I never said the act of breastfeeding was sexual. (people on this forum really love jumping the gun wherever possible )

In fairness you said that people can't just stop thinking of breasts as sexual just because there's a child, which implies that they find breastfeeding sexual. I was far from the only person who took you up that way so it's probably not people jumping the gun but more so poor phrasing on your behalf.

Azalea

Yeah not every woman manages to breastfeed - and they don't deserve to be criticised, it can be very upsetting and difficult and painful. But breast is still the better of the two for baby, so it is the more ideal if the woman can manage it.

I agree with you, ThinkProgress, if people see breasts in a sexual context all the time, it's gonna be a bit weird for them seeing them in a breastfeeding context, so I can understand them feeling uncomfortable. But they just gotta... suck it up I guess I would cover mine up as much as possible, as it would be embarrassing for me and for others for it to be fully exposed, but if a woman does expose her breast, I guess just look away.

emo72

How the **** is this even a thread? And how the **** did it make this many pages?

LETHAL LADY

Azalea wrote: »

Yeah not every woman manages to breastfeed - and they don't deserve to be criticised, it can be very upsetting and difficult and painful. But breast is still the better of the two for baby, so it is the more ideal if the woman can manage it.

I agree with you, ThinkProgress, if people see breasts in a sexual context all the time, it's gonna be a bit weird for them seeing them in a breastfeeding context, so I can understand them feeling uncomfortable. But they just gotta... suck it up I guess I would cover mine up as much as possible, as it would be embarrassing for me and for others for it to be fully exposed, but if a woman does expose her breast, I guess just look away.

I can actually only think of two women within my social circle who went on to successfully breastfeed once they had left the hospital with their baby. Unfortunately imo the supports are only there for women who live in larger urban areas.

greenorchard

One eyed Jack wrote: »

She had to bite her tongue more times when she felt like screaming, because of course a plastic teat is shyte in comparison fo what is most natural. What she didn't do was make a big song and dance about it and expect other people should be considerate of the fact she couldn't breastfeed and all the rest of it.

So because your wife didn't breastfeed it's inconsiderate of other women to do it in public?

And it's only 'unusual' in Ireland as we have the worst breastfeeding rates in the world. One of the ways to help change this is for women to feed in public & help normalise it.

Ave Sodalis

emo72 wrote:

How the **** is this even a thread? And how the **** did it make this many pages?

Because some people think women shouldn't breastfeed in public, some people think women should be as discrete as possible and cover up when breastfeeding in public, and some people think women should just be able to breastfeed in public without judgement from the former two. Generally when people have opposing opinions, it causes a discussion. What I find more confusing is why you found it necessary to add to a thread which very existence is a cause of bewilderment for you.

Micky Dolenz

LETHAL LADY wrote: »

I can actually only think of two women within my social circle who went on to successfully breastfeed once they had left the hospital with their baby. Unfortunately imo the supports are only there for women who live in large urban areas.

women in other parts of the world breastfeed through necessity, cost efficient and practical. how much support do you reckon a women needs to breastfeed?

It is more about convenience then anything in the western world, not doing it. Any woman that sticks at it is some kind of hero. Millions of woman do ti every day across the world.

On the pic, clearly staged and looking for a reaction. if she lobbed that out in my company, I couldn't help but look.

jimdublin15

Azalea wrote: »

Yeah not every woman manages to breastfeed - and they don't deserve to be criticised, it can be very upsetting and difficult and painful. But breast is still the better of the two for baby, so it is the more ideal if the woman can manage it.

Indeed they don't deserve to be criticized but they are. I can recall very clearly the overwhelming pressure my ex-wife had after the birth of out 2 kids. The pressure to breastfeed was overwhelmingly pushed on her, and even i could feel the pressure and feel her distress. It ended up okay in the end.
I would have been fine either way if the kids had gotten the bottle or breast to be honest.

kylith

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What I have an issue with, is people complaining because people are staring at them for doing something unusual in public. Unusual because it is uncommon.

Why do people have to stare though? Just because something is uncommon? We're all aware that in polite society staring is rude so rather than making it about not expecting people not to stare it should be made about reminding people that's it's rude to gawp at others. Considering how people manage to ignore obnoxious drunks you'd think that a breast would be easy to not look at.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

sup_dude I'm far from ignorant on the topic. Here in the West we have these incredible little gadgets called breast pumps, and you can put the breast milk in bottles and take it with you in your changing bag along with all the other stuff a baby night need when they're out.

All of which need to be washed and sterilised, and the milk heated before consumption. Unlike the sterile, perfect temperature milk that comes out of milk ducts. It'd be like using a wheelchair when your legs are perfectly fine; sure you can do it but it's a level of hassle that's just not necessary.

Ave Sodalis

Micky Dolenz wrote:

women in other parts of the world breastfeed through necessity, cost efficient and practical. how much support do you reckon a women needs to breastfeed?

Generally though, the more normal it is, the less support systems are needed.

Gaygooner

How many women do you guys know that "lob" breasts out? Usually it's a careful manoeuvre with the child in her arms

emo72

sup_dude wrote: »

Because some people think women shouldn't breastfeed in public, some people think women should be as discrete as possible and cover up when breastfeeding in public, and some people think women should just be able to breastfeed in public without judgement from the former two. Generally when people have opposing opinions, it causes a discussion. What I find more confusing is why you found it necessary to add to a thread which very existence is a cause of bewilderment for you.

Surely you should be able to breastfeed anywhere! It's the most natural thing of all time.
That's why I posted.

Alf Veedersane

How people have a problem with separating the sexual and the functional and don't find room for context is bizarre.

If you don't like it, don't look.