Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 Updated Mod Note Post 1

robopaddy2 · 09-09-2015 12:24AM

conditioned games wrote: »

It's usually local people that drive a turnaround in a club from underage up, Dungarvan look the most likely western team to win a county now which is some huge turnaround since 2009. I see munster don't allow combined schools teams anymore since Dungarvan colleges won it twice. In leinster there's dublin north, Dublin south, Antrim, meath, laois, offaly, and wexford combined schools teams. In munster the harty cup now seems to be dominated by Cork schools with 7 and just 2 from waterford which seems very lob sided.

West Limerick still have a combined schools in the Harty.

robopaddy2 · 09-09-2015 01:03AM

archieknox wrote: »

Again looking at some results from the West of the county I can't help but notice a familiar pattern emerging around the same areas. Tourin beaten last weekend by Modeligo puts them in a relegation struggle. Shamrocks on the other side struggling aswell. Take the Bennetts out of the Ballysaggart side and they're in the same situation. What I'm getting at is,is it a coincidence that all these intermediate clubs are struggling while the senior teams in their parishes aswell are in the same boat? I include Tallow in that even though they qualified for the quarter finals as they're nowhere near challenging for the championship. Is it time to move out the die hards up there and discuss amalgamations or are each of them happy that the other is in the same position which makes it ok rather than looking at the bigger picture? Local rivalry gets you so far and probably fills the local pub on the night of the game but what else? Please don't tell me that's what our association was/is based on! Surely we've a bigger thought process than that where the future of the games in these areas must be the priority. As I mentioned in a previous post due to alot of reasons country clubs are struggling for numbers so to me the obvious thing to do is amalgamate. Yes all clubs are proud of their history and their success and rightly so but is that a good enough reason to stifle the game in these areas? I'm sure the people in Ballyhale aren't regretting it!
In my town of Dungarvan the situation was different as we always had the numbers but the structures were never there. Now thankfully this has been rectified through both the club and the schools. Maybe the same needs to be done in Tramore as it is shameful to see such a large populated area with neither a competitive senior hurling or football team in the town.

Don't agree with what you're trying to say at all. Ballysaggart and Shamrocks both field second string sides and Tourin got to a county intermediate final a couple years ago. Hardly the a sign of an area where hurling is being 'stifled'. Yes Lismore and Ballyduff have gone backwards in the senior grade over the last few years but that's life. Tallow are the same now as they have ever been, and Cappoquin don't forget are Munster club intermediate champions. Had they not hit the self-destruction button and lost 3 of their best players I have no doubt they would have been a lot more competitive at senior this year and could have been dark horses to go along way even. Club sides come in peaks and throughs you can't start pointing the finger anytime someone meets a few lean years. As recently as 2008 Dungarvan were within a whisker of going down Junior, only barely beat Ballysaggart in a relegation play-off to stay up intermediate. Didn't see too many 'die-hards' in there moving to discuss amalgations with Abbeyside?

On a serious note, I think maybe a senior 'group team' for the junior and intermediate clubs in that area might be worth looking at. But if your talking about trying to get rid of some of those smaller clubs just because a couple of the bigger teams are having a couple of lean years is nonsense argument. It would serve no purpose only to further decrease the amount of players playing the game in these areas

PTH2009 · 09-09-2015 01:33AM

robopaddy2 wrote: »

West Limerick still have a combined schools in the Harty.

prob siad this before but i would like to see a combined waterford city schools team in the harty cup alongside De La Salle College.

Students from Mount Sion CBS, St Pauls, Waterpark, Newtown etc

Mountainlad · 09-09-2015 07:22AM

I heard Shamrocks were very good this year.

conditioned games · 09-09-2015 08:10AM

robopaddy2 wrote: »

West Limerick still have a combined schools in the Harty.

Not this year they don't

Mountainlad · 09-09-2015 08:52AM

I see An Rinn down in 4th on the IHC group two west table. Do they not make the quarters given they beat Brickeys and have a better head to head?

thesultan · 09-09-2015 10:09AM

Dungarvan for years had good underage record but they never really got much of them at adult level. The current bunch have stuck together as well as poaching players from surrounding clubs to make them very competitive.

deiseach · 09-09-2015 11:00AM

thesultan wrote: »

Dungarvan for years had good underage record but they never really got much of them at adult level. The current bunch have stuck together as well as poaching players from surrounding clubs to make them very competitive.

archieknox · 09-09-2015 03:26PM

thesultan wrote: »

Dungarvan for years had good underage record but they never really got much of them at adult level. The current bunch have stuck together as well as poaching players from surrounding clubs to make them very competitive.

And more to come!!! You heard it here first!!

JesusRef · 09-09-2015 08:03PM

archieknox wrote: »

And more to come!!! You heard it here first!!

Ya word is they will nearly have the victorious colleges team eventually. ..

In a roundabout way people will get their wish of seeing a combined group team

tomwaterford · 09-09-2015 10:25PM

thesultan wrote: »

Dungarvan for years had good underage record but they never really got much of them at adult level. The current bunch have stuck together as well as poaching players from surrounding clubs to make them very competitive.

Used they not be very hamstrung slightly by lads emigrating/moving away for work and couldn't commit fully?

archieknox · 10-09-2015 07:38AM

JesusRef wrote: »

Ya word is they will nearly have the victorious colleges team eventually. ..

In a roundabout way people will get their wish of seeing a combined group team

Yep we're getting there! Couple of fellas in the junior ranks might like a chance to play senior!

JesusRef · 10-09-2015 09:35AM

archieknox wrote: »

Yep we're getting there! Couple of fellas in the junior ranks might like a chance to play senior!

Mt Sion or Ballygunnar wouldn't turn them away

DiscoStew · 10-09-2015 05:58PM

archieknox wrote: »

Yep we're getting there! Couple of fellas in the junior ranks might like a chance to play senior!

What's the general feeling in the club with this approach Archie? One joining next year has connections to the club at underage so that's more understandable but in general is their an acceptance to this approaching of players or are members of the club put out by it?

Mountainlad · 10-09-2015 06:57PM

JesusRef wrote: »

Mt Sion or Ballygunnar wouldn't turn them away

Hearing they might have some unexpected logistical rivalry in that as well.

archieknox · 11-09-2015 12:34AM

DiscoStew wrote: »

What's the general feeling in the club with this approach Archie? One joining next year has connections to the club at underage so that's more understandable but in general is their an acceptance to this approaching of players or are members of the club put out by it?

All joking aside its not welcomed by most of the members as its portraying the club in a negative light. Strong rumours of one high profile player joining up with his brothers next year alright and definitely canvassing has taken place in the past resulting in another addition this year but personally I'm against it. Its surely better to win with your own and as you can imagine when new acquisitions are taking the places of the homegrown players it can lead to disharmony. But unfortunately it has been going on in this county for years especially with city clubs so it isn't going to change especially with the transfer system we have in this county. The Cork transfer system is the one to replicate and it would put an end to all the chopping and changing. Alot of these approaches are being done without consent which doesn't help either.
At the moment we have the nucleus of a decent senior side whether its good enough to win a county remains to be seen but if we can't win it with what we have I personally wouldn't be for approaching players from different clubs to reach the promised land. We're lucky in that all our underage work is now benefiting the seniors but its the likes of Cois Brid, St Pats, St. Carthages,St. Olivers etc are losing out as these youngsters are heading off,in some cases to 3 different clubs so whom really benefits from that? I understand fully why these clubs are formed at underage but would it not be better to see them through together to adult level thereby the standard of all championships increases and thereby lessens the chances of these transfers taking place? My honest opinion is something has to be done up west of the county to compete with the likes of Ballygunner DLS in the city as these clubs are getting even stronger year on year with consistent underage success to continue their adult domination whereas up here some clubs might have one or two strong underage teams once every 6-7 yrs and must depend on this to try to compete with the big boys. That cannot be sustained long term and as long as these city clubs continue to grow at underage the longer their reign continues at senior level. Again I say Dungarvan as a town should have enough numbers to be competitive whereas for some of the teams further up west must seriously be concerned about the long term future of their sides. Yes clubs go through peaks and troughs but is that enough for the better players in those sides? Take Darragh and Shane Fives can people honestly say that if they had the chance to play under a strong group team at senior level they wouldn't jump at the chance? Maybe I'm wrong but for 2 outstanding intercounty hurlers id imagine they'd love the chance to play competitively at senior level in the county. The Bennetts in Ballysaggart must surely be the same,the Roches from the Shamrocks are in the same boat. Wouldn't you have a decent senior side if lets say Tourin,Ballysaggart and the Shamrocks came together and entered the fray together? Always options available just to look at them more seriously.

mickotallow · 11-09-2015 09:15AM

archieknox wrote: »

All joking aside its not welcomed by most of the members as its portraying the club in a negative light. Strong rumours of one high profile player joining up with his brothers next year alright and definitely canvassing has taken place in the past resulting in another addition this year but personally I'm against it. Its surely better to win with your own and as you can imagine when new acquisitions are taking the places of the homegrown players it can lead to disharmony. But unfortunately it has been going on in this county for years especially with city clubs so it isn't going to change especially with the transfer system we have in this county. The Cork transfer system is the one to replicate and it would put an end to all the chopping and changing. Alot of these approaches are being done without consent which doesn't help either.
At the moment we have the nucleus of a decent senior side whether its good enough to win a county remains to be seen but if we can't win it with what we have I personally wouldn't be for approaching players from different clubs to reach the promised land. We're lucky in that all our underage work is now benefiting the seniors but its the likes of Cois Brid, St Pats, St. Carthages,St. Olivers etc are losing out as these youngsters are heading off,in some cases to 3 different clubs so whom really benefits from that? I understand fully why these clubs are formed at underage but would it not be better to see them through together to adult level thereby the standard of all championships increases and thereby lessens the chances of these transfers taking place? My honest opinion is something has to be done up west of the county to compete with the likes of Ballygunner DLS in the city as these clubs are getting even stronger year on year with consistent underage success to continue their adult domination whereas up here some clubs might have one or two strong underage teams once every 6-7 yrs and must depend on this to try to compete with the big boys. That cannot be sustained long term and as long as these city clubs continue to grow at underage the longer their reign continues at senior level. Again I say Dungarvan as a town should have enough numbers to be competitive whereas for some of the teams further up west must seriously be concerned about the long term future of their sides. Yes clubs go through peaks and troughs but is that enough for the better players in those sides? Take Darragh and Shane Fives can people honestly say that if they had the chance to play under a strong group team at senior level they wouldn't jump at the chance? Maybe I'm wrong but for 2 outstanding intercounty hurlers id imagine they'd love the chance to play competitively at senior level in the county. The Bennetts in Ballysaggart must surely be the same,the Roches from the Shamrocks are in the same boat. Wouldn't you have a decent senior side if lets say Tourin,Ballysaggart and the Shamrocks came together and entered the fray together? Always options available just to look at them more seriously.

One fundamental flaw I see in all this is the eliteism being promoted in your argument. Yes everyone wants to win a county title and compete against the very best teams. You kind of contradict yourself in the way you say surely If ye can't win it with what ye have you personally would be against approaching other players to reach the promised land. You then quote the Bennets, the Fives and the Roches in saying you'd have a fine senior team there. But what about the rest of the lads who play for Ballysaggart, Tourin and Shamrocks. Lads like Janie O Brien, the Wilkinsons and the O'Donovans. Lads who give their all for their club. Who take pride in representing their club and being a part of it's history.
People seem to think that if a club is not winning it's respective county or reaching semi finals then it should just give up and join up with another club. Damn history and tradition. We in Tallow learned the true power of the club this year when unfortunately we lost a valued club member suddenly, the mother of 3 if our most influencial players. But we stood together as a club and the whole town provided support. The effort made by the club in offering support and guards of honour and food was commented on by many people from outside our club. And we're not the only club who do this. How diluted would that be if you took the GAA club out of Tallow and formed a s**t hot senior club with Shamrocks,Ballyduff and Ballysaggart etc.

JesusRef · 11-09-2015 02:30PM

Best if Luck to the Camogie girls on Sunday - I can't turn my back on watching my county in an All Ireland final in Croke Park so Looking forward to travelling to see the girls collecting the cup on Sunday, hopefully many more will do the same.

Another sign of Waterfords emergence as a GAA county is the strides camogie has been making on the club and county scene, it's brilliant and the skill levels of the current team are unreal.

archieknox · 11-09-2015 07:15PM

mickotallow wrote: »

One fundamental flaw I see in all this is the eliteism being promoted in your argument. Yes everyone wants to win a county title and compete against the very best teams. You kind of contradict yourself in the way you say surely If ye can't win it with what ye have you personally would be against approaching other players to reach the promised land. You then quote the Bennets, the Fives and the Roches in saying you'd have a fine senior team there. But what about the rest of the lads who play for Ballysaggart, Tourin and Shamrocks. Lads like Janie O Brien, the Wilkinsons and the O'Donovans. Lads who give their all for their club. Who take pride in representing their club and being a part of it's history.
People seem to think that if a club is not winning it's respective county or reaching semi finals then it should just give up and join up with another club. Damn history and tradition. We in Tallow learned the true power of the club this year when unfortunately we lost a valued club member suddenly, the mother of 3 if our most influencial players. But we stood together as a club and the whole town provided support. The effort made by the club in offering support and guards of honour and food was commented on by many people from outside our club. And we're not the only club who do this. How diluted would that be if you took the GAA club out of Tallow and formed a s**t hot senior club with Shamrocks,Ballyduff and Ballysaggart etc.

No contradiction there at all I simply put it that these players should be given the opportunity to play as a group team I never mentioned them leaving their clubs at all. Yes ye lost a valued member of yer club as did we in tragic circumstances but don't for one minute put a rubbish argument that the people of the town wouldn't come together for guards of honour etc over hurling? We had clubs from all of West Waterford attend our club grounds as a mark of respect some weeks back for a person that was respected in every walk of life not just GAA but then if people are narrow minded enough to let sport get in the way of such tragedies then they have no business being involved in it at all. I'm sure Mick Kearney would have made sandwiches for ye if ye were stuck!
I can see now why this discussion of broadening such opportunities will always fall on deaf ears!! Fear of change is a frightening thing.

Mountainlad · 11-09-2015 08:16PM

Lads like the Fives' (probably unfair to be specifically mentioning them but anyway) have the opportunity to play at a much higher level already i.e. with Waterford. It's the other members whose plight should be of most concern.

I'd be in favour of group teams where one clubs is clearly struggling with numbers. If this isn't happening already it is bound to happen. I don't believe for example, Kilgobinet should be out on their own at this stage.

You would think that small parishes would be an issue but then Modeligo won a Munster Junior last year, Cappoquin a Munster Intermediate and Ballinameela almost won the Waterford intermediate.

Cornerstonelad · 11-09-2015 09:10PM

archieknox wrote: »

No contradiction there at all I simply put it that these players should be given the opportunity to play as a group team I never mentioned them leaving their clubs at all. Yes ye lost a valued member of yer club as did we in tragic circumstances but don't for one minute put a rubbish argument that the people of the town wouldn't come together for guards of honour etc over hurling? We had clubs from all of West Waterford attend our club grounds as a mark of respect some weeks back for a person that was respected in every walk of life not just GAA but then if people are narrow minded enough to let sport get in the way of such tragedies then they have no business being involved in it at all. I'm sure Mick Kearney would have made sandwiches for ye if ye were stuck!
I can see now why this discussion of broadening such opportunities will always fall on deaf ears!! Fear of change is a frightening thing.

Archie make your mind up do you want amalgamations or group teams. Group teams have been tried in the county over many decades,generally with little success. Maybe they should be tried again, if there is a will. The clubs from as you say 'up there' seem to be doing fine without accumulating hordes of silverware. They are integral parts of their communities.

mickotallow · 11-09-2015 09:43PM

archieknox wrote: »

No contradiction there at all I simply put it that these players should be given the opportunity to play as a group team I never mentioned them leaving their clubs at all. Yes ye lost a valued member of yer club as did we in tragic circumstances but don't for one minute put a rubbish argument that the people of the town wouldn't come together for guards of honour etc over hurling? We had clubs from all of West Waterford attend our club grounds as a mark of respect some weeks back for a person that was respected in every walk of life not just GAA but then if people are narrow minded enough to let sport get in the way of such tragedies then they have no business being involved in it at all. I'm sure Mick Kearney would have made sandwiches for ye if ye were stuck!
I can see now why this discussion of broadening such opportunities will always fall on deaf ears!! Fear of change is a frightening thing.

Archie. This isn't a contest to see which club has suffered the biggest tragedy. The point I was trying to make is that clubs are an integral part of the community and there is more to clubs than silverware. How did people let sport get in the way of such tragedies? The GAA is the focal point of our community and as such comes together in such times so the family don't have to ask Mick Kearney to make sandwiches. But maybe pointing this out to a dungarvan clubman who's club seem to think that your affiliation to a club isn't born out of pride, history or sense of camaraderie with lifelong teammates but rather the promise of glory.

As for discussion on broadening opportunities. I'm all for discussion just not preaching. I played on the group teams that were set up in early 2000's. And while I was proud to play on such teams I never felt the same satisfaction as playing for my own club. And if anything I found playing on these teams detracted from the commitment I was giving to Tallow. If others feel different to me on this matter then more power to them. I just don't feel there is any desire from players or clubs to set up group teams.

cul beag · 11-09-2015 10:19PM

mickotallow wrote: »

Archie. This isn't a contest to see which club has suffered the biggest tragedy. The point I was trying to make is that clubs are an integral part of the community and there is more to clubs than silverware. How did people let sport get in the way of such tragedies? The GAA is the focal point of our community and as such comes together in such times so the family don't have to ask Mick Kearney to make sandwiches. But maybe pointing this out to a dungarvan clubman who's club seem to think that your affiliation to a club isn't born out of pride, history or sense of camaraderie with lifelong teammates but rather the promise of glory.

As for discussion on broadening opportunities. I'm all for discussion just not preaching. I played on the group teams that were set up in early 2000's. And while I was proud to play on such teams I never felt the same satisfaction as playing for my own club. And if anything I found playing on these teams detracted from the commitment I was giving to Tallow. If others feel different to me on this matter then more power to them. I just don't feel there is any desire from players or clubs to set up group teams.

I haven't the faintest clue what Archie is trying to say here? Group teams? Amalgamations? For instance lets say this year either Ballyduff or Lismore are relegated so am I right in thinking his logic is that which ever is relegated they could join Ballysaggart or form a group team with them? And then maybe the following week play each other in the intermediate championship? How would that one work? And who is to say Ballysaggart won't win this year's intermediate? What then?
Some of the best games are between local rivals why do you think the Western junior and intermediate championships draw bigger crowds than most senior games? A little bit of progress being made by a league of nations team in the"old boro" and we all have to listen to preaching from the pulpit. Sort out that clown of an u21 manager ye gave us instead of worrying about something ye know FA about!

shoddy14 · 12-09-2015 06:38PM

cul beag wrote: »

I haven't the faintest clue what Archie is trying to say here? Group teams? Amalgamations? For instance lets say this year either Ballyduff or Lismore are relegated so am I right in thinking his logic is that which ever is relegated they could join Ballysaggart or form a group team with them? And then maybe the following week play each other in the intermediate championship? How would that one work? And who is to say Ballysaggart won't win this year's intermediate? What then?
Some of the best games are between local rivals why do you think the Western junior and intermediate championships draw bigger crowds than most senior games? A little bit of progress being made by a league of nations team in the"old boro" and we all have to listen to preaching from the pulpit. Sort out that clown of an u21 manager ye gave us instead of worrying about something ye know FA about!

Who will you chose to pair up with DLS if their relegated next year?

PTH2009 · 12-09-2015 07:04PM

Disaster for de la salle. At least Kevin Moran and Jake Dillon will get a month or 2 off before they go back training for Waterford

Mountainlad · 12-09-2015 08:21PM

Ballygunner v mount Sion
Fourmilewater v Roanmore
Passage v Tallow
Dungarvan v ballyduff

De La Salle are bad, but in fairness FMW were impressive and missing 3 starters for the entire game, with Conor Gleeson only playing 13 minutes. Probably not going to win a county but they will be tough opposition for anyone they play. It means two of the last years semi finalists will be gone.

And all this talk about an 8 team championship, sure de La Salle do be hammering everyone

Alf Tupper · 12-09-2015 08:35PM

shoddy14 wrote: »

Who will you chose to pair up with DLS if their relegated next year?

De La Saviours:)

Back to the future!

PTH2009 · 12-09-2015 09:09PM

hard to believe de la salle a club who were in a all ireland senior club final in 2008/09 and could (should of) won the all ireland club in 2010/11 could be playing in the eastern intermediate championship in 2016. John Mullane will call it a day id say if they are relagated.

robopaddy2 · 12-09-2015 11:59PM

Cant say my heart bleeds for either DLS or Lismore finding themselves in a relegation final. DLS have done their fair share of poaching underage players from smaller clubs over the years. Maybe now it might show other players joining one of 'the big city clubs' is not all its cracked up to be. Also Lismore should have one 2 or 3 senior county titles over the past 20 years. But being caught up in their own sense of entitlement has seen them shoot themselves in the foot on many occasions.

Weldone to the clubs that made it through against the odds. Mt Sion and Ballygunner being paired against each other in the quarters should make things interesting

DeiseDawg · 13-09-2015 10:08AM

Jamie barron the best player on display in fraher field last night. Mighty impressed with conor gleeson, when he came on. martin f o neill and eoin mcgrath impressed for mt sion. Maurice shanahan's freetaking is superb, fouling lismore is handing them scores. something gone very wrong with de la salle, and it has to be inside their own camp.
Mt sion ballygunner and the relegation game should be crackers.

Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 Updated Mod Note Post 1