Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 Updated Mod Note Post 1

Mountainlad · 06-09-2015 11:11PM

Deskjockey wrote: »

Sunday Game team of the Year
1. Colm Callanan G
2. Paul Murphy KK
3. Joey Holden KK
4. Cathal Barrett TN/TS
5. Daithi Burke G
6. Tadhg de Búrca WD
7. Cillian Buckley KK
8. Michael Fennelly KK
9. David Burke G
10. Jonathan Glynn G
11. Richie Hogan KK
12. TJ Reid KK
13. Ger Aylward KK
14. Seamus Callanan TN/TS
15. Maurice Shanahan WD

Is that there car reg beside them?

Deskjockey · 06-09-2015 11:23PM

Mountainlad wrote: »

Is that there car reg beside them?

Yep. Thought it was too stalkerish to put full numbers up. But I have them

robopaddy2 · 06-09-2015 11:34PM

Deskjockey wrote: »

Sunday Game team of the Year
1. Colm Callanan G
2. Paul Murphy KK
3. Joey Holden KK
4. Cathal Barrett TN/TS
5. Daithi Burke G
6. Tadhg de Búrca WD
7. Cillian Buckley KK
8. Michael Fennelly KK
9. David Burke G
10. Jonathan Glynn G
11. Richie Hogan KK
12. TJ Reid KK
13. Ger Aylward KK
14. Seamus Callanan TN/TS
15. Maurice Shanahan WD

Hard to argue with that even though Id have our own Aussie Gleeson in there somewhere

danganabu · 07-09-2015 10:39AM

redlead wrote: »

Nah sure look at the harmless red card brick got last year in the league and they wouldn't remove it. Not sure in hurling such a ban would be removed if you are from a non big three county. It's a disgraceful decision from the Gaa. There must be some serious buffoons on those appeals committees. I've lost a lot of respect for them over this. It seriously undermines the referees too.

While I agree with your sentiment re the entire disciplinary structure you're claim re the big three in hurling is miles off and has no foundation what so ever or have you any examples to back it up??

Mountainlad wrote: »

When you see how Kilkenny drop there half forward and midfield line backs and break in the counter attacking way, it rally pisses me off the way we keep getting compared to Donegal.

What were doing is basically what they do with the addition of just playing a sweeper. So basically, we have one extra man further back but other than its similar in terms of setup.

Totally agree and have being saying it all year, KK were the first team to adopt it, Waterford merely took it to the next level, but KK dont do tactics lol, there are none as blind as those who will not see!

JesusRef · 07-09-2015 10:46AM

After a host of some of the best players ever retire, Kilkenny coast to another All - Ireland and should have won by 7-10 points yesterday.

Well done to them they are the Masters at the game, after the hope that 2013 would bring a new dawn it is back to the same old same old, it is hard to see any of the other sides compete with them over the next few years.

It's 20 years ago since Clare burst into the scene in 1995, since then more teams ha e dropped back into the shadows then have emerged from them - the amount of counties that have gone backwards since then - no new non traditional counties have emerged even though 2 generations of hurlers could have been produced in that time.

In the '90s We had Tipp, KK, Galway, Wexford, Offally, Cork, Lmk, Waterford, Clare all either champions or serious contenders - it was meant to be hurling revolution but the GAA have proven since then that they cannot even promote this game as a participation sport in our own country

Mehapoy · 07-09-2015 10:58AM

JesusRef wrote: »

After a host of some of the best players ever retire, Kilkenny coast to another All - Ireland and should have won by 7-10 points yesterday.

Well done to them they are the Masters at the game, after the hope that 2013 would bring a new dawn it is back to the same old same old, it is hard to see any of the other sides compete with them over the next few years.

It's 20 years ago since Clare burst into the scene in 1995, since then more teams ha e dropped back into the shadows then have emerged from them - the amount of counties that have gone backwards since then - no new non traditional counties have emerged even though 2 generations of hurlers could have been produced in that time.

In the '90s We had Tipp, KK, Galway, Wexford, Offally, Cork, Lmk, Waterford, Clare all either champions or serious contenders - it was meant to be hurling revolution but the GAA have proven since then that they cannot even promote this game as a participation sport in our own country

I think its as much a case of other counties going backwards as Kilkenny going ahead, I mean in a sport where there are only about 8 contenders to have Waterford and Limerick not winning an ai in 40+ years is a serious failure...galway is coming up 30 years, offaly unlikely to be up there in the foreseeable future. most have bigger populations than Kilkenny so should be able to compete, Cork with their population should not be struggling so much, granted Waterford and Limerick have improved at underage but you'd Wonder what the county boards have been doing in these counties...

deiseach · 07-09-2015 11:40AM

There's one constant in Kilkenny in the last 15 or so years. Once that is gone, Kilkenny will come back down to terra firma. Until that happens, might as well enjoy the journey.

Ropaire · 07-09-2015 12:31PM

deiseach wrote: »

There's one constant in Kilkenny in the last 15 or so years. Once that is gone, Kilkenny will come back down to terra firma. Until that happens, might as well enjoy the journey.

Depends on who takes over from him and how they want to play the game. Club championship in kilkenny is alot better than most other counties and although they have a smaller overall population they have a better pick of quality hurlers as their club scene is so strong. China or India aren't exactly steamrolling the world in sport (not the ones I waych anyway) like.

JesusRef · 07-09-2015 12:38PM

Waterford, Wexford, Limerick and Clare are on the right track underage, but the game is not spreading at all.. its sad to think that in a large parts of the country boys who love watch hurling on the telly will never get to swing a hurley in competition or get to be coached in an organised fashion.

Speaking of Waterford what the hell happened in this county between 1963ish and 1998? We totally dropped off the hurling map yet hurling was still strong in the county, I know Limerick feel the same from the book unlimited heartbreak, it's like something was lost in those years... We have been up there now for close on 20 years, for us to not be involved for close to 40 years before that really is hard to understand

deiseach · 07-09-2015 12:38PM

Kilkenny should always be a force in the game. It ain't guaranteed - I'm just about old enough to remember when Tipperary went nine years without winning a single championship match, and losing to Waterford in 1983 was seen as a plucky effort (FAO mods - that's yer Waterford link ) - but in the long run they should come out ahead. Brian Cody is something else altogether though. If they're lucky, they'll get a Louis Van Gaal to keep them ticking over. If they're unlucky . . . Man Utd fans will be able to tell you what 'unlucky' looks like.

deiseach · 07-09-2015 01:04PM

JesusRef wrote: »

Speaking of Waterford what the hell happened in this county between 1963ish and 1998? We totally dropped off the hurling map yet hurling was still strong in the county, I know Limerick feel the same from the book unlimited heartbreak, it's like something was lost in those years... We have been up there now for close on 20 years, for us to not be involved for close to 40 years before that really is hard to understand

It's definitely worth investigating why we went into such a disastrous decline after the mid 1960's, but if we were to look at the GAA in the county backwards from the mid 1990's then the anomalous period was the success, not the failure. It's perhaps unfair to read too much in the first few decades of the Association when everything was in a state of flux, and we were significant enough a presence to host the very first national championship in Tramore and even a few All-Ireland finals in Dungarvan. But on the field we were a disaster, when we even managed to get onto the field at all. We played two championship games in the 19th century. Two! The only Munster final we reached in the first 40 years of the GAA was in 1903. Beating Kerry in the Munster semi-final might not have been that bad given they had won the All-Ireland in 1891, but the 27-point trimming in the final against Tipperary suggests a fluke win. By the 1910's, when eight different counties won the All-Ireland, including each of our four 'rivals' in Munster, we managed one draw in the entire decade, against Clare in 1911 - and we gave a walkover in the replay. Things had improved by the late 1920's, and it's surely no coincidence that we reached the Munster final in 1929 in the same year we won the Minor All-Ireland. We continued to be competitive on-and-off throughout the next three decades, but the 1980's might have looked like the reversion to the mean to anyone who lived through it.

TL;DR: don't take our current standing in the game as the norm.

JesusRef · 07-09-2015 01:05PM

Ropaire wrote: »

Depends on who takes over from him and how they want to play the game. Club championship in kilkenny is alot better than most other counties and although they have a smaller overall population they have a better pick of quality hurlers as their club scene is so strong. China or India aren't exactly steamrolling the world in sport (not the ones I waych anyway) like.

St. Kierans play a huge part as well, hurlers from all over kilkenny are hothouses in there and the geography of the county means the best young hurlers can go there as distance isn't really a factor.

To name some of the club's sending players in there based on 2014 panels

Dunamaggin, O'Loughlin Geals, James Stephens, Barrow Rangers, Bennett bridge, Dicksboro, Gowran, Graige-ballycallan, ballyhale shamrocks, Clara, tullaroan, Thomas town, rower inistioge

As well as more clubs besides (erins own, emeralds, fenians, Danesfort)

All kilkenny clubs, many big senior clubs and recent county champions.
The school is unaffected by the loss of borders like other previous big hitters on the college hurling scene.. All the while kilkenny cbs not doing to bad either.

It would be like a school more centrally located in waterford taking in the best players from around The city and dungarvan regions...

As st Colmans are now showing these schools are only as good as the surrounding clubs these days

JesusRef · 07-09-2015 01:12PM

deiseach wrote: »

It's definitely worth investigating why we went into such a disastrous decline after the mid 1960's, but if we were to look at the GAA in the county backwards from the mid 1990's then the anomalous period was the success, not the failure. It's perhaps unfair to read too much in the first few decades of the Association when everything was in a state of flux, and we were significant enough a presence to host the very first national championship in Tramore and even a few All-Ireland finals in Dungarvan. But on the field we were a disaster, when we even managed to get onto the field at all. We played two championship games in the 19th century. Two! The only Munster final we reached in the first 40 years of the GAA was in 1903. Beating Kerry in the Munster semi-final might not have been that bad given they had won the All-Ireland in 1891, but the 27-point trimming in the final against Tipperary suggests a fluke win. By the 1910's, when eight different counties won the All-Ireland, including each of our four 'rivals' in Munster, we managed one draw in the entire decade, against Clare in 1911 - and we gave a walkover in the replay. Things had improved by the late 1920's, and it's surely no coincidence that we reached the Munster final in 1929 in the same year we won the Minor All-Ireland. We continued to be competitive on-and-off throughout the next three decades, but the 1980's might have looked like the reversion to the mean to anyone who lived through it.

TL;DR: don't take our current standing in the game as the norm.

So the 50's and 60's and recent resurgence are the outliers, the thought of returning to the norm will keep me awake at night

deiseach · 07-09-2015 01:13PM

JesusRef wrote: »

So the 50's and 60's and recent resurgence are the outliers, the thought of returning to the norm will keep me awake at night

We have to maintain that attitude. Can't take anything for granted...

JesusRef · 07-09-2015 01:48PM

deiseach wrote: »

We have to maintain that attitude. Can't take anything for granted...

Ya just look at Offally as a cautionary tale for us

hardybuck · 07-09-2015 03:20PM

JesusRef wrote: »

Ya just look at Offally as a cautionary tale for us

Not the best example. Offaly were a football county before hurling got stronger in the 80s.

danganabu · 07-09-2015 03:57PM

hardybuck wrote: »

Not the best example. Offaly were a football county before hurling got stronger in the 80s.

Exactly, the player pool in Offaly for hurling is tiny and they simply over achieved for a number of years with an exceptional bunch of players.

JesusRef · 07-09-2015 04:06PM

danganabu wrote: »

Exactly, the player pool in Offaly for hurling is tiny and they simply over achieved for a number of years with an exceptional bunch of players.

They had exceptional players, but they didn't over achieve, they won what they deserved to win, they won there first title in 1981 and their last in 1998 so it's not like it was one freak team - it was more then that, it didn't happen by accident but they didn't follow it up - that's the point you can never take your eye off the ball

danganabu · 07-09-2015 04:10PM

JesusRef wrote: »

They had exceptional players, but they didn't over achieve, they won what they deserved to win, they won there first title in 1981 and their last in 1998 so it's not like it was one freak team - it was more then that, it didn't happen by accident but they didn't follow it up - that's the point you can never take your eye off the ball

Over achieved was perhaps the wrong choice of words, more that they boxed abover their weight as a hurling county and it was unsustainable with their player pool and resources, they still should never have fallen to where they are now and you are right that has been as the result of neglegince on the county boards part.

JesusRef · 07-09-2015 04:21PM

danganabu wrote: »

Over achieved was perhaps the wrong choice of words, more that they boxed abover their weight as a hurling county and it was unsustainable with their player pool and resources, they still should never have fallen to where they are now and you are right that has been as the result of neglegince on the county boards part.

Yes they may have punched above their weight but they did it over such a long period of time that it should have been sustainable enough for them to be at least competitive - that is reach quarter finals consistently.
Their board most take the blame for letting all that work just wilt and die, god forbid it would ever happen us but it seems that we have the structures in place to produce competitive teams for the next while

danganabu · 07-09-2015 04:39PM

JesusRef wrote: »

Yes they may have punched above their weight but they did it over such a long period of time that it should have been sustainable enough for them to be at least competitive - that is reach quarter finals consistently.
Their board most take the blame for letting all that work just wilt and die, god forbid it would ever happen us but it seems that we have the structures in place to produce competitive teams for the next while

Yeah I'm not really well informed of the structures in place in Waterford but certainly from the outside it looks like everything is in good shape and teh underage talent being produced backs this assertion up.

Ofally is actually shambolic, I remember Michael Duignan and one the Pilkingtons I think went to the county board a number of years ago with a blueprint of what was needed as they could see this coming and they were more or less told to go away.

Here in Tipp I'm concerned myself over the structures we have in place the last number of years, as we have become a dual county the costs have increased massivley and teh county board in their wisdaom has made the needed cuts in the underage setup which ois so short sighted and naive it beggars belief.

Ropaire · 08-09-2015 01:50AM

JesusRef wrote: »

Waterford, Wexford, Limerick and Clare are on the right track underage, but the game is not spreading at all.. its sad to think that in a large parts of the country boys who love watch hurling on the telly will never get to swing a hurley in competition or get to be coached in an organised fashion.

I was very nearly one of those kids, me parents had no interest in the GAA but I loved it when i was a kid. One of our neighbours saw me out with a hurl the whole time and used to throw me in the car with his kids to go training and to games. I was lucky to get a craic at it like.

There's plenty of potential All Stars in alot of the weaker counties who will never get a craic at it because of tradition and cos their county boards don't care. That combined Ulster schools team from a few yeaes back would have given alot of them something to aim for, but it was canned. I'd love to see the GAA merging a few of the weaker counties into regional teams, imagine playing Connacht minus Galway or an Ulster team in the championship, it would be great for hurling people there to have a team to shout for at inter county level.

robopaddy2 · 08-09-2015 02:08AM

JesusRef wrote: »

Yes they may have punched above their weight but they did it over such a long period of time that it should have been sustainable enough for them to be at least competitive - that is reach quarter finals consistently.
Their board most take the blame for letting all that work just wilt and die, god forbid it would ever happen us but it seems that we have the structures in place to produce competitive teams for the next while

It was a golden era for them. The 80s team was backboned by an exceptional Banagher College side which won all Irelands at underage then an all conquering Birr club team came along in the 90s and they remained competitive and successful at intercounty level as a result. Before their successful period in the 80s and 90s they would pretty much have been as they are now, a second rate hurling county, on a par with their neighbours Laois. Hurling is still only played in a very small pocket of the county.

The difference between us now and prior to when the underage hurling structures changed in the county in the early noughties is that hurling has spread to a lot more clubs throughout the county where football would have been more prominent. Look at the county hurling teams at the moment with clubs like Clashmore, Modeligo, Colligan etc being represented. Dungarvan and Abbeyside have re-emerged as a hurling force aswell having been sleeping giants since the 50s and 60s. In times past it was unheard of for the smaller rural clubs to produce intercounty hurlers, and look at county teams from the 1960 to the early noughties our county teams would have been predominantly made up of players from the city, the far east of the county and the far west. There was a vast area of the county which was under developed in terms of promoting the game of hurling and when the development system changed the county as a whole was integrated into the plan and you can see the massive improvements in the quality of players and teams we are producing. The timing happened to coincide with our relative success at senior level from 1998+ aswell which helped in the promotion of the game and getting more young people interested.

So I think our current system should ensure we at least remain competitive, unlike Offaly who don't really promote the game outside of the traditional 10/12 clubs within their county.

deiseach · 08-09-2015 09:05AM

It really is marvellous how players from the smaller clubs can get into the county team. I don't think this was always the case. Legend has it that no less a player than Mick Roche tried out with the Waterford Minors and was spurned for hailing from a piddling little club like St Mollerans. This may not be true - feel free to correct me if its not - but it has the ring of truth, and would be highly unlikely these days.

And you know what makes me really cheerful? Ask anyone what sport they associate with the metropolitan district city of Waterford and they will say 'hurling'. This wasn't always the case in what was one of the most garrison of garrison towns. Read David Smith's biography of John Keane and you'll see why Waterford struggled so badly in the early days of the Association. The city was effectively a GAA wasteland back in the late 19th century, and it took a long time to overcome that handicap. When you look at the decline of the Cork city GAA greats and contrast it with the robust townie swagger that we bring to the game, I think it's something of which Waterford can be justly proud.

danganabu · 08-09-2015 11:10AM

deiseach wrote: »

It really is marvellous how players from the smaller clubs can get into the county team. I don't think this was always the case. Legend has it that no less a player than Mick Roche tried out with the Waterford Minors and was spurned for hailing from a piddling little club like St Mollerans. This may not be true - feel free to correct me if its not - but it has the ring of truth, and would be highly unlikely these days.

I have certainly heard that story before, although was told it was because he was too small rather than from a small club. And to be fair plenty of guys are nothing special at minor and go on to be superstars, Henry Shefflin and Lar Corbett being two very recent examples.

archieknox · 08-09-2015 02:02PM

Again looking at some results from the West of the county I can't help but notice a familiar pattern emerging around the same areas. Tourin beaten last weekend by Modeligo puts them in a relegation struggle. Shamrocks on the other side struggling aswell. Take the Bennetts out of the Ballysaggart side and they're in the same situation. What I'm getting at is,is it a coincidence that all these intermediate clubs are struggling while the senior teams in their parishes aswell are in the same boat? I include Tallow in that even though they qualified for the quarter finals as they're nowhere near challenging for the championship. Is it time to move out the die hards up there and discuss amalgamations or are each of them happy that the other is in the same position which makes it ok rather than looking at the bigger picture? Local rivalry gets you so far and probably fills the local pub on the night of the game but what else? Please don't tell me that's what our association was/is based on! Surely we've a bigger thought process than that where the future of the games in these areas must be the priority. As I mentioned in a previous post due to alot of reasons country clubs are struggling for numbers so to me the obvious thing to do is amalgamate. Yes all clubs are proud of their history and their success and rightly so but is that a good enough reason to stifle the game in these areas? I'm sure the people in Ballyhale aren't regretting it!
In my town of Dungarvan the situation was different as we always had the numbers but the structures were never there. Now thankfully this has been rectified through both the club and the schools. Maybe the same needs to be done in Tramore as it is shameful to see such a large populated area with neither a competitive senior hurling or football team in the town.

leerushon · 08-09-2015 03:24PM

Very surprising result in the West IHC last weekend with Brickeys leaving a 7 point half time lead slip.

Anyone at it ? I heard there was trouble after the game as well.

conditioned games · 08-09-2015 07:53PM

archieknox wrote: »

Again looking at some results from the West of the county I can't help but notice a familiar pattern emerging around the same areas. Tourin beaten last weekend by Modeligo puts them in a relegation struggle. Shamrocks on the other side struggling aswell. Take the Bennetts out of the Ballysaggart side and they're in the same situation. What I'm getting at is,is it a coincidence that all these intermediate clubs are struggling while the senior teams in their parishes aswell are in the same boat? I include Tallow in that even though they qualified for the quarter finals as they're nowhere near challenging for the championship. Is it time to move out the die hards up there and discuss amalgamations or are each of them happy that the other is in the same position which makes it ok rather than looking at the bigger picture? Local rivalry gets you so far and probably fills the local pub on the night of the game but what else? Please don't tell me that's what our association was/is based on! Surely we've a bigger thought process than that where the future of the games in these areas must be the priority. As I mentioned in a previous post due to alot of reasons country clubs are struggling for numbers so to me the obvious thing to do is amalgamate. Yes all clubs are proud of their history and their success and rightly so but is that a good enough reason to stifle the game in these areas? I'm sure the people in Ballyhale aren't regretting it!
In my town of Dungarvan the situation was different as we always had the numbers but the structures were never there. Now thankfully this has been rectified through both the club and the schools. Maybe the same needs to be done in Tramore as it is shameful to see such a large populated area with neither a competitive senior hurling or football team in the town.

Fenor and Kill anamalagated 2 yrs ago and they have a good chance winning the junior this year. A vote by the clubs is the only way but there's not that much history of it in waterford at adult level so can't see it changing in the west any time soon. County board could help encourage it though. What did Dungarvan do to turn it around, was it local people that got involved underage or was there any outside help.

archieknox · 08-09-2015 10:17PM

conditioned games wrote: »

Fenor and Kill anamalagated 2 yrs ago and they have a good chance winning the junior this year. A vote by the clubs is the only way but there's not that much history of it in waterford at adult level so can't see it changing in the west any time soon. County board could help encourage it though. What did Dungarvan do to turn it around, was it local people that got involved underage or was there any outside help.

Ya I could see it working but will it happen up there? I doubt it aswell. Pat Curran was the main instigator of the club being put on a strong footing from top to bottom and he also got the primary school in the town hurling more competitively aswell. It helped I suppose that he thought there aswell. The CBS would have done its part also under Pat Collins and even further back than that with Johnny Barry but when both the CBS and ST. Augustines joined for the Harty under Darragh Duggan it definitely was a huge help to us.

conditioned games · 08-09-2015 11:27PM

It's usually local people that drive a turnaround in a club from underage up, Dungarvan look the most likely western team to win a county now which is some huge turnaround since 2009. I see munster don't allow combined schools teams anymore since Dungarvan colleges won it twice. In leinster there's dublin north, Dublin south, Antrim, meath, laois, offaly, and wexford combined schools teams. In munster the harty cup now seems to be dominated by Cork schools with 7 and just 2 from waterford which seems very lob sided.

Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

Comments

Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 Updated Mod Note Post 1