Guinness Pro12 2015/2016 Season thread

total former · 20-07-2015 3:44pm

The IRFU will probably rotate it again in a year or two so that we go back to not having Munster v Leinster at Christmas and the issue will resolve itself anyway.

irishbucsfan · 20-07-2015 4:26pm

total former wrote: »

The IRFU will probably rotate it again in a year or two so that we go back to not having Munster v Leinster at Christmas and the issue will resolve itself anyway.

Except they'll rotate Ulster v Leinster into it's place...

total former · 20-07-2015 4:50pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Except they'll rotate Ulster v Leinster into it's place...

Or Leinster v Connacht, but yes, exactly.

molloyjh · 20-07-2015 5:02pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Is there any evidence that you can't have A without B? Is playing one or two more matches going to make much of a difference to Ireland?

What we're talking about there is the Ireland camp at Christmas coinciding with the inter-pros at Christmas. Ultimately this is what the issue is. That clash means we don't have full strength squads. And if we assume for now that inter-pros at Christmas will remain (a safe bet given the logistics around Christmas time) then could we really move the Ireland camp? And if so to when exactly do we move it given the timing of the European games?

irishbucsfan · 20-07-2015 5:19pm

total former wrote: »

Or Leinster v Connacht, but yes, exactly.

Well it's already on just days later, there's two interpros on.

phog · 20-07-2015 6:11pm

Worst case scenario this year is that the four provinces could be playing their European games away from home on Sunday 20th December.

Would it be possible for the Irish Squad to go into Irish camp on Monday 21st Dec to Wed 23rd Dec and allow the lads return to the provinces for the post Xmas Pro12 games.

How long are they normally in camp over the Xmas period?

total former · 20-07-2015 6:53pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well it's already on just days later, there's two interpros on.

But last season, the second interpro (Leinster v Ulster) was full strength so no issue.

The issue is that it's Munster v Leinster that is being devalued. No one really cared when it was the other interpro games on the 26/27th.

irishbucsfan · 20-07-2015 6:59pm

total former wrote: »

But last season, the second interpro (Leinster v Ulster) was full strength so no issue.

The issue is that it's Munster v Leinster that is being devalued. No one really cared when it was the other interpro games on the 26/27th.

They did, don't you remember the uproar when BMcL sent the Ravens to the RDS?

It wasn't as big a deal when Ulster were in the doldrums because the games weren't as relevant. Now with the addition of playoffs and the increased competitiveness of the league they are huge missed opportunities. One of the best Leinster games last season was the Ulster game.

total former · 20-07-2015 7:23pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

They did, don't you remember the uproar when BMcL sent the Ravens to the RDS?

It wasn't as big a deal when Ulster were in the doldrums because the games weren't as relevant. Now with the addition of playoffs and the increased competitiveness of the league they are huge missed opportunities. One of the best Leinster games last season was the Ulster game.

Nothing like the complaints that arose last Christmas IIRC but anyway...

I don't disagree that it reduces the competitiveness of the fixture. But the unalterable reality is that derbies will happen over Christmas. That is just not going to change because it suits quite literally everyone, unions, clubs, fans and TV. The only variable is which derby happens when and that's not a flaw of the league or its structure.

So the only solution to this issue is relaxation of the IRFU demands on player management. Personally I can't imagine anyone really benefits from a two-day get together in Carton House but so long as Joe wants it, that's how it's going to be.

molloyjh · 20-07-2015 8:33pm

total former wrote: »

Nothing like the complaints that arose last Christmas IIRC but anyway...

I don't disagree that it reduces the competitiveness of the fixture. But the unalterable reality is that derbies will happen over Christmas. That is just not going to change because it suits quite literally everyone, unions, clubs, fans and TV. The only variable is which derby happens when and that's not a flaw of the league or its structure.

So the only solution to this issue is relaxation of the IRFU demands on player management. Personally I can't imagine anyone really benefits from a two-day get together in Carton House but so long as Joe wants it, that's how it's going to be.

I'm sure if there was no benefit to it Joe wouldn't have been shy in scrapping it. Isn't it that camp that they properly review the AIs? I'm sure there's also discussion about how they're going to approach the upcoming 6Ns.

sydneybound · 28-07-2015 9:10am

This could have been mentioned elsewhere but good seeing the Italians get a tv deal on a FTA channel for both their domestic league and Pro12 matches

http://www.pro12rugby.com/news/17565.php#8mWxTEVGHIvi4j5I.97

Can't say I know of Rai Sport or how popular it is in Italy but at least this year they have a tv deal in place before the season starts.

phog · 04-08-2015 9:51pm

Pro12 rugby appoint a new MD. Hope he can grow the league.

thomond2006 · 04-08-2015 9:59pm

phog wrote: »

Pro12 rugby appoint a new MD. Hope he can grow the league.

Any chance he could change those 6pm kickoffs so I don't have to take a day off to make a game?

irishbucsfan · 04-08-2015 10:13pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Any chance he could change those 6pm kickoffs so I don't have to take a day off to make a game?

Nothing much will change, John Feehan is the decision maker for the Pro 12, he also fulfills the same role for the 6 Nations, whether or not you think that's a good idea depends on personal opinion I suppose!

molloyjh · 25-08-2015 9:47am

Ah bless, someone brought their kid along to the launch of the Pro12.

11891153_1154882414539898_1565613468890394614_n.jpg?oh=e25bd8a5819b0a6665b4b1704b78ff5e&oe=5681DB6B

.ak · 25-08-2015 9:50am

I love the fact in most of the pics everyone is trying to look all cool and serious .... except Locky!

matthew8 · 05-09-2015 7:11pm

Haven't seen a thread. Thrilling finish to Glasgow Scarlets here.

Edit: Scarlets hold on inside their 22 with 11 men (3 yellows, 1 injured) to win 16-10, were 16-5 up with 25 seconds left.

vienne86 · 05-09-2015 7:12pm

matthew8 wrote: »

Haven't seen a thread. Thrilling finish to Glasgow Scarlets here.

Scarlets hold on to win 10-16.

b.gud · 06-09-2015 4:38pm

Zebre are thrashed by Cardiff 61-13

matthew8 · 06-09-2015 4:45pm

Hat trick of tries for Rhys Patchell but 1 for 8 off the tee. Cardiff missed 19 points in kicks.

molloyjh · 06-09-2015 4:55pm

matthew8 wrote: »

Hat trick of tries for Rhys Patchell but 1 for 8 off the tee. Cardiff missed 19 points in kicks.

What!? So they could have been on 80? That's pure mental. The Italians are becoming a total shambles, both at club level and international level. There was a sign they might have stepped it up a bit a couple of years ago but any progress seems to have disappeared.

Greyian · 06-09-2015 5:00pm

matthew8 wrote: »

Haven't seen a thread. Thrilling finish to Glasgow Scarlets here.

Edit: Scarlets hold on inside their 22 with 11 men (3 yellows, 1 injured) to win 16-10, were 16-5 up with 25 seconds left.

Glasgow were absolutely brutal. They used up a little over 5 minutes (starting just before 73:00) in scrums.

Then, when they had the 4 man advantage, they threw the game away by attempting a speculative offload in the last play. Absolute lunacy.

irishbucsfan · 06-09-2015 5:05pm

molloyjh wrote: »

What!? So they could have been on 80? That's pure mental. The Italians are becoming a total shambles, both at club level and international level. There was a sign they might have stepped it up a bit a couple of years ago but any progress seems to have disappeared.

I think we may see an end to their involvement in the Pro 12 soon unfortunately, especially if they continue to decline and the financial issues remain. I wonder if they could compete in Pro D2.

sydneybound · 06-09-2015 5:35pm

molloyjh wrote: »

What!? So they could have been on 80? That's pure mental. The Italians are becoming a total shambles, both at club level and international level. There was a sign they might have stepped it up a bit a couple of years ago but any progress seems to have disappeared.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think we may see an end to their involvement in the Pro 12 soon unfortunately, especially if they continue to decline and the financial issues remain. I wonder if they could compete in Pro D2.

A tad of an over reaction there lads. Treviso only lost by 5 points away to Munster last night.

Zebre are missing so many players due to the World Cup and don't have depth. Let's judge both Italians more after a few home games.

Italy didn't even finish bottom of the Six Nations, Scotland did who Italy beat away from home. They also did quite well yesterday against Wales and only lost by 4 points away from home. They should have beaten Scotland at home a few weeks back.

The Italians paid off the amount they owed to the league. Inclusion of the two Italians are vital to develop rugby in Italy.

CatFromHue · 06-09-2015 5:43pm

They've Dragons next week so a big loss there would be very telling.

They are missing 9 guys to the RWC and did recruit heavily from the lower division of Italian rugby too

irishbucsfan · 06-09-2015 5:50pm

sydneybound wrote: »

A tad of an over reaction there lads. Treviso only lost by 5 points away to Munster last night.

Zebre are missing so many players due to the World Cup and don't have depth. Let's judge both Italians more after a few home games.

Italy didn't even finish bottom of the Six Nations, Scotland did who Italy beat away from home.

The Italians paid off the amount they owed to the league. Inclusion of the two Italians are vital to develop rugby in Italy.

It's not an overreaction at all. Who finished in the bottom two places of the league last season? Who finished in the bottom two places of the league the season before that? Zebre had 15 points over the entire campaign, they're falling away. I'm not basing my opinion of the teams on one game. I'm basing my opinion of the teams on the poor quality of the teams teams themselves.

Also, the inclusion of the teams in the league is not vital in developing rugby in Italy. There's no basis for that whatsoever, I don't think you've thought it through. People aren't drawn to the sport by Zebre losing every week. If the teams were successful they'd draw people to the sport, or if the national side in particular was successful it would draw people to the sport, in the absence of both of those factors it's local investment that will make a difference. It would be nice if meritocracy had kicked the Italians on a bit but they can't really compete at the moment and they're only really incentivised to beat each other.

I definitely want them to remain in the league by the way, I would like to see them become competitive, but I can't see it happening if they're finishing bottom every year and not improving, eventually someone will look for an alternative way to spend the millions that they're lining Celtic League Ltd's pockets with.

aimee1 · 06-09-2015 7:30pm

matthew8 wrote: »

Hat trick of tries for Rhys Patchell but 1 for 8 off the tee. Cardiff missed 19 points in kicks.

cardiff played rugby, zebre played tag, looking at highlights now on bbc wales scrum v. zebre chasing the shadows of the shadows

RAKM · 06-09-2015 8:29pm

Time to replace them with London Scottish and London Welsh. they could get good support from home fans and away fans when the likes of Leinster, Ospreys etc. play in London. Tbh the rest cannot be expected to care so much about the development of Rugby in Italy. We've given them a decent chance and it has not worked. They have probably disimproved since they came in.

CatFromHue · 06-09-2015 10:26pm

10, 29, and 15 points is what they finished up with in their 3 seasons so they're not exactly falling from a height.

thomond2006 · 06-09-2015 10:30pm

Treviso were good last night but I counted 8 foreigners in their starting lineup. You'd hope for Italian rugby's sake that there will be more Italian players starting once RWC is finished. Unfortunately they didn't push on from their 2011/12 finish when they finished only 4 points behind Munster in the league.

jacothelad · 07-09-2015 12:31pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Treviso were good last night but I counted 8 foreigners in their starting lineup. You'd hope for Italian rugby's sake that there will be more Italian players starting once RWC is finished. Unfortunately they didn't push on from their 2011/12 finish when they finished only 4 points behind Munster in the league.

Were all the foreign players non qualified for Italy?

thomond2006 · 08-09-2015 11:25am

Murrayfield will host the final.

Tickets will go on sale next week. Price £20 - £45.

CatFromHue · 08-09-2015 1:55pm

Munster and Glasgow didn't sell out Ravenhill last season, 17K, so putting it in Murrayfield is a big ask.

Podge_irl · 08-09-2015 2:09pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

Munster and Glasgow didn't sell out Ravenhill last season, 17K, so putting it in Murrayfield is a big ask.

A lot more time to sell tickets now though. Still a big ask all things considered.

awec · 08-09-2015 2:25pm

It'll never sell out. Not a hope. A Leinster Munster final wouldn't even sell it out.

CatFromHue · 08-09-2015 2:27pm

There's more time overall but still only a week between the SFs and the Final so I don't see a big crowd there for this one.

aimee1 · 08-09-2015 3:10pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

There's more time overall but still only a week between the SFs and the Final so I don't see a big crowd there for this one.

Selling point is a weekend in Edinburgh. Think it will have a respectable crowd as a result.

phog · 08-09-2015 3:27pm

Imho, the exchange rate killed the final last year, if it's the same next May then I can't see many more heading over to Edinburgh, though it is a fabulous city.

A £28 ticket became a €42 ticket after converting from sterling to euro.

awec · 08-09-2015 3:37pm

The final last year was saved by the fact Munster fans had a relatively cheap trip (exchange rate aside they had no flights and could do a day trip with little hassle) and the Irish teams tend to be the best supported teams in terms of numbers. Imagine last years final was in Wales, would there even have been 10k there?

This year they'll be praying that Glasgow make the final because I doubt even a Leinster Munster final would get much more than the 17k last year in a much bigger stadium given there is only a week for people to get sorted. Two Welsh teams in the final and it'll be a disaster.

Can't see many people booking flights in advance of knowing their team will be there.

jacothelad · 08-09-2015 3:41pm

awec wrote: »

The final last year was saved by the fact Munster fans had a relatively cheap trip (exchange rate aside they had no flights and could do a day trip with little hassle) and the Irish teams tend to be the best supported teams in terms of numbers. Imagine last years final was in Wales, would there even have been 10k there?

This year they'll be praying that Glasgow make the final because I doubt even a Leinster Munster final would get much more than the 17k last year in a much bigger stadium given there is only a week for people to get sorted. Two Welsh teams in the final and it'll be a disaster.

Can't see many people booking flights in advance of knowing their team will be there.

The answer is a two legged final. Home and Away. Simples. Bin Zebre, gain the time.

b.gud · 08-09-2015 3:42pm

awec wrote: »

The final last year was saved by the fact Munster fans had a relatively cheap trip (exchange rate aside they had no flights and could do a day trip with little hassle) and the Irish teams tend to be the best supported teams in terms of numbers. Imagine last years final was in Wales, would there even have been 10k there?

This year they'll be praying that Glasgow make the final because I doubt even a Leinster Munster final would get much more than the 17k last year in a much bigger stadium given there is only a week for people to get sorted. Two Welsh teams in the final and it'll be a disaster miracle.

Can't see many people booking flights in advance of knowing their team will be there.

FYP

CatFromHue · 08-09-2015 4:06pm

Glasgow sold 10K for their home SF last season so I'm sure the powers that be are hoping they'll make it again this season as no way will any other team be bringing that amount.

The biggest attendance so far for a Pro12 final was the Munster v Leinster one but considering there's only 2 hours drive between Dublin and Limerick it's much easier, and cheaper, for that fixture.

bilston · 08-09-2015 4:26pm

Ballsy move by the Pro 12.

By playing the final at a stadium as famous as Murrayfield you give it a bit more prestige which is no bad thing.

Hopefully they fill at least half the stadium.

awec · 08-09-2015 4:28pm

bilston wrote: »

Ballsy move by the Pro 12.

By playing the final at a stadium as famous as Murrayfield you give it a bit more prestige which is no bad thing.

Hopefully they fill at least half the stadium.

It holds like 67k.

If they even hit 20k I'll be shocked.

bilston · 08-09-2015 5:27pm

awec wrote: »

It holds like 67k.

If they even hit 20k I'll be shocked.

It depends on who is in the final. An Ulster Glasgow final might do ok.

irishbucsfan · 08-09-2015 5:37pm

I think it's very hard to predict. There was 80,000 people in Twickenham for the premiership final this year. That seems a very high figure, I think a lot of those people make their minds up quite early. They do a lot of advertising for that from early on which helps I think. I think we could certainly get 40k to a Pro 12 final.

bilston · 08-09-2015 5:44pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think it's very hard to predict. There was 80,000 people in Twickenham for the premiership final this year. That seems a very high figure, I think a lot of those people make their minds up quite early. They do a lot of advertising for that from early on which helps I think. I think we could certainly get 40k to a Pro 12 final.

The difficulty is if the semi finals are the week before it is harder to make arrangements to get to the final a week later. In England it's a case of booking a train or taking the car or hiring a bus, in the Pro 12 it invariably involves booking a flight which isn't cheap.

Glasgow could bring 15k to a final as could Ulster (Scotland is easy enough to get to and large NI community there already) throw in 5,000 'rugby tourists' and you have 35,000. That's do-able. Leinster and Munster could bring decent support as well.

If a Welsh team are in the final then, well, there'll be quite an echo in the stadium...

CatFromHue · 08-09-2015 5:52pm

In the Aviva nearly all the clubs are only 2 to 3 hours drive from Twickenham so you can go and back easy enough on the same day.

In the Pro12 Edinburgh is a flight option or a drive, or long drive, ferry, and then another 2 hours or so drive.

If you're flying it looks like an over nighter for Leinster and Munster as it looks like the last flight out of Edinburgh is mid afternoon.

So the cost and time involved in getting to and back for a Pro12 final in Edinburgh for everyone bar the Scots team is pretty big.

irishbucsfan · 08-09-2015 5:54pm

I think you're massiely underestimating the price of UK rail, amazingly you can fly from Dublin to Edinburgh with Aer Lingus for less than a train from Bath to London if you book early enough!

I think it's more the reputation of it than anything else. I found a lot of people were going to the Premiership final just because it's what they did. You get the same at the European finals. If it became a habitual trip for Celtic League fans it'd be really great (wouldn't mind a trip down to Italy!)

phog · 08-09-2015 5:56pm

Afaik, there are no flights direct from Shannon to either Glasgow or Edinburgh. I think Ryanair operate out of Cork to Glasgow. Obviously, Dublin has flights direct to both airports.

I doubt many rugby fans based in the Midwest will bother with the final until closer to the event and might want until they know who's in it.

Guinness Pro12 2015/2016 Season thread

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