So when will there be a referendum on criminalizing meat eating?

Sam Kade · 23-05-2015 9:22pm

pconn062 wrote: »

How do you think the majority of chicken is raised in the UK? Free-range? I worked on several different farms (during my teenage years), one of which was predominantly a beef cattle farm and the animals were mostly treated well, raised on pastures. Most of the beef produced in Ireland is still raised outdoors and grass fed, hence why I didn't mention beef in my original point.

We import almost €300m worth of chicken every year and Irish poultry farms are closing down as they cant compete

ThinkProgress · 23-05-2015 9:24pm

CK73 wrote: »

I don't think our digestive system adapts that quickly. There are loads of foods my digestive system can't tolerate, with grains being one of them.

I actually don't eat a lot of meat because of that, but that is my digestive system, where other people may tolerate meat a lot better and find it harder to tolerate high levels of veg and grains.

We are all different and all from different geographical locations. I do think that we are governed by our historical location and the kind of farming and foods available to us, as this is where the tolerants levels are built up. You can't just decide to change and not expect some problems.

I agree, everyone is slightly different. I don't eat massive quantities of meat - my body wouldn't tolerate that either.

Clearly there are people than seem suited to almost exclusively plant-based diets... or they force their body to adapt because of their moral stance.

I tried fruitarianism for a while, after watching that aussie dude on youtube... but my body rejected that diet in quite a violent fashion. lol

I genuinely believe my body requires meat and dairy for optimal health. I actually do quite well on a certain amount of refined carbs too. (not highly refined though)

I limit consumption of vegetables. And I eat zero fruit. I'm very healthy, fit and not carrying any weight.

But that's my body!

Bongalongherb · 23-05-2015 9:26pm

Sam Kade wrote: »

We import almost €300m worth of chicken every year and Irish poultry farms are closing down as they cant compete

Just imagine what it would be like without a snack-box. That would be seriously depressing.

eoinzy2000 · 23-05-2015 9:27pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Who let the hippies in? Lock and load. In before the nonsense bro and sis science of "we're actually vegetarians by design" nonsense. If it wasn't for animal protein we'd be still swinging through the trees. And yep I can back that up with facts and figures and actual science.

I'm all for improving the living conditions of those animals we raise for food and we should be eating less meat(and stodgy carbs too while we're at it), but if you wanna go full veggie, knock yourself out, but maybe keep the tie dyed sandal wearing meat is murder guff to yourselves OK?

Couldn't have said it better myself. You'll be looking for a referendum to make it illegal not to believe in your god next and preaching all over the shop about it.

jungleman · 23-05-2015 9:28pm

LoTR wrote: »

My dear Irish friends,

Seeing as you like referendums so much, and like "setting things right," I am just wondering when you will have a Yes/No referendum on whether brutality, depravity, torture, and the horrific killings of other sentient beings is something the Irish people will continue to support and strongly engage with, or stand up against?

Will the Irish be the first people in the world to criminalize the brutality, depravity, torture, and the horrific killings of other sentient beings (and purchasing such things)....or does the Irish people's definition of mercy not extend to other sentient beings?

When will this referendum be held? And what would you vote for? Will people one day gather with flags in Dublin Castle to celebrate the fall of brutality, depravity, torture, and the horrific killings of other sentient beings? Will one day the Irish people set an example for the world? Or will nothing ever convince you to open up your heart to those that cannot speak for themselves?

"Earthlings" with Joaquin Phoenix is a fantastic documentary about this issue.

Okay first of all, this is ridiculously exaggerated.

We don't need a referendum for this, there is nothing about consuming meat in the Irish constitution.

Irish livestock aren't killed by "brutality, depravity, torture, or horrific killings". Irish livestock is protected by EU law. Beef is a huge Irish export, and those cattle are treated unbelievably well. We don't have CAFOs (concentrated animal feed operations) here. They're not corn-fed. They are treated unbelievably well, and are killed quickly and humanely.

Irish cattle aren't pumped with hormones. Irish meat is not cleaned with ammonia. These practices are common in the US, not Ireland.

Irish dairy cattle are stocked at an average 2.1 p/hectare. Beef cattle are stocked at an average 1.71 p/hectare. Those are ridiculously humane statistics. They ensure that cattle don't overgraze a patch and have a constant supply of fresh grass. Compare that with CAFOs in the US where the livestock is corn-fed, which causes chronic infection as cattle struggle to digest it. Irish cattle suffer none of that.

If you have a problem with people eating meat, Ireland isn't the country to start with. Try China. Their population is not only expanding, but it's also getting wealthier. Chinese people are now able to buy imported meat, and the market for meat imports to China is exploding. This has resulted in a growth in soybean plantations. Not only are they a favourite foodstuff of vegetarians, but they are used as feed for cattle, pigs, chicken, and farmed fish.

50 million hectares of land has been converted to soybean plantations in Argentina, Brazil and Paraguay. That's twice the size of the UK. They are destroying the Amazon rainforest, and have wiped out 78% of Paraguay's interior Atlantic rainforest.

The reason I'm banging on about China, soybeans, and South America is because none of that is relevant to Ireland. Irish meat eating is sustainable, it's humane, and it's not devastating the planet. If you are really against indecent animal practices, look to the US. If you're worried about damage to the environment caused by meat eating, look to the meatification of Asia's diet.

Ireland is grand.

Plryty · 23-05-2015 9:29pm

ThinkProgress wrote: »

I agree, everyone is slightly different. I don't eat massive quantities of meat - my body wouldn't tolerate that either. Clearly there are people than seem suited to almost exclusively plant-based diets... or they force their body to adapt because of their moral stance.

I tried fruitarianism for a while, after watching that aussie dude on youtube... but my body rejected that diet in quite a violent fashion. lol

I genuinely believe my body requires meat and dairy for optimal health. I actually do quite well on a certain amount of refined carbs too. (not highly refined though). I limit consumption of vegetables. And I eat zero fruit. I'm very healthy, fit and not carrying any weight. But that's my body!

Cutting out entire food groups as a general rule of thumb is never a good idea. Whilst an argument can be made for the nutritional content of most fruits not being worth the calorie intake when compared to veg, which tends to be far lower in calories & packed with nutrients. Limiting your veg intake whilst not having any fruits is not exactly a great idea.

Typically meats = great sources of minerals with high bioavailability, veg = great sources of vitamins, antioxidants & fibres.

ThinkProgress · 23-05-2015 9:38pm

Plryty wrote: »

Cutting out entire food groups as a general rule of thumb is never a good idea. Whilst an argument can be made for the nutritional content of most fruits not being worth the calorie intake when compared to veg, which tends to be far lower in calories & packed with nutrients. Limiting your veg intake whilst not having any fruits is not exactly a great idea.

Typically meats = great sources of minerals with high bioavailability, veg = great sources of vitamins, antioxidants & fibres.

Don't forget, refined carbs come from vegetation too. There are vitamins and minerals in all plant foods.

You are right, fruits are not as nutritious as vegetables. I love fruit, but I don't feel my body needs it - so I don't eat it.

I think people eat too much fruit and juices too. Especially when told to eat more fruit & veg - most will load up on fruit rather than veg.

My body has adapted, I believe, to getting more energy from fat. Which is good as this energy released slower than carbs.

Bongalongherb · 23-05-2015 9:44pm

My 'intuition' is the master and the ruler of the human body. I'd be sitting down at the computer watching a good documentary and all of a sudden my brain forwards visual images and feelings of going to the fridge to eat some baby-beetroots from the jar. I let the natural instinct take-over and grab a fork and pop out a baby-beet and they are tasty.

I once had a strange urge to eat a pickled onion for some reason, and that was very tasty as well. Right now at this time I feel like an omelette with a sprinkling of red cheddar and shared ham placed onto the omelette at start of cooking.

ThinkProgress · 23-05-2015 9:55pm

Bongalongherb wrote: »

My 'intuition' is the master and the ruler of the human body. I'd be sitting down at the computer watching a good documentary and all of a sudden my brain forwards visual images and feelings of going to the fridge to eat some baby-beetroots from the jar. I let the natural instinct take-over and grab a fork and pop out a baby-beet and they are tasty.

I once had a strange urge to eat a pickled onion for some reason, and that was very tasty as well. Right now at this time I feel like an omelette with a sprinkling of red cheddar and shared ham placed onto the omelette at start of cooking.

Are you pregnant? ;-P

I actually do that too... late at night I find protein and fatty food more appealing.

Cashew nuts. Or any nuts tbh! lol

Bongalongherb · 23-05-2015 10:07pm

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Are you pregnant? ;-P

I actually do that too... late at night I find protein and fatty food more appealing.

Cashew nuts. Or any nuts tbh! lol

No. The closest I am to pregnant is this fecking beer-belly I can't get rid of.

Nuts are great, not the crazy ones, the planters dry roasted peanuts are lovely. I went through a 250 gramme packet the other nite. They should have a warning on the product though, because once you have one peanut you just have to finish the whole packet.

LoTR · 23-05-2015 10:16pm

ThinkProgress wrote: »

I explained in another post, that I think we are an adaptable creature. Capable of sustaining ourselves on different foods / diets.

We have developed that way out of necessity. Just look at overpopulated regions to see what I mean... But there is a difference between eating for necessity and doing so for optimal health.

But you are talking about some VERY hefty changes. Bringing down capitalism? How?

And you've also got to address the population crisis... because that's the reason we have capitalism and the rich/poor divide. (a desire to escape the misery of poverty / malnourishment / bad health)

Humans have a natural desire to rise above the flock.

So you need to attack this problem from many different angles... it's not as simple as saying "everybody stop eating meat - it's cruel"

You need better food choices for the billions of poor. But also why do you think traditionally that rich people eat more meat? It's not just because it tastes good. It goes deeper than that!

There is evidence that too much vegetation can cause damage to our digestive system. We certainly need those to a degree, but we should not sustain ourselves purely on them.

Agriculture made plants easier to digest... ok granted we probably went a bit too far in the opposite direction with high fructose corn syrup etc... but things like bread and cereals were seen as being more efficient than raw vegetation. (and easier on our guts)

Meat is fully digested by the human body, and also contains fibrous like material. Fat also aids in digestion too. It's a lie that we need HUGE amounts of plant matter to have healthy digestion - there are books and studies that back this up!

btw - nobody's eyes are shut about animal slaughter. I've lived in rural areas for many years... we certainly can do better when it comes to animal treatment - but my eyes are wide open.

I just don't see any big interesting solutions coming from you. But lots of finger waving and rightious indignation!

I did not say it was the entire solution, I said that it starts there. You don't need to have all the problems in the universe solved in order to take the first step - which is simply not choosing meat next time you go into the supermarket, or food place. You start with the choices you make yourself. And is every single post here going to ignore that millions of vegetarians have proven it is perfectly possible to live healthy without eating meat? You start with there. No one has ever said the world is going to be changed overnight. But it's absurd not to do anything - not to do the simplest of things, which is not purchasing torture and death for animals. There is absolutely no excuse for that. Yes people live in different situations in the world, some fringe societies still depend on hunting and gathering for their food, and in the past humans were more dependent. This is not about that. This is about you, a person living in the Western world who has all the choices in the world before them.

LoTR · 23-05-2015 10:31pm

jungleman wrote: »

Okay first of all, this is ridiculously exaggerated.

We don't need a referendum for this, there is nothing about consuming meat in the Irish constitution.

Irish livestock aren't killed by "brutality, depravity, torture, or horrific killings". Irish livestock is protected by EU law. Beef is a huge Irish export, and those cattle are treated unbelievably well. We don't have CAFOs (concentrated animal feed operations) here. They're not corn-fed. They are treated unbelievably well, and are killed quickly and humanely.

Irish cattle aren't pumped with hormones. Irish meat is not cleaned with ammonia. These practices are common in the US, not Ireland.

Irish dairy cattle are stocked at an average 2.1 p/hectare. Beef cattle are stocked at an average 1.71 p/hectare. Those are ridiculously humane statistics. They ensure that cattle don't overgraze a patch and have a constant supply of fresh grass. Compare that with CAFOs in the US where the livestock is corn-fed, which causes chronic infection as cattle struggle to digest it. Irish cattle suffer none of that.

If you have a problem with people eating meat, Ireland isn't the country to start with. Try China. Their population is not only expanding, but it's also getting wealthier. Chinese people are now able to buy imported meat, and the market for meat imports to China is exploding. This has resulted in a growth in soybean plantations. Not only are they a favourite foodstuff of vegetarians, but they are used as feed for cattle, pigs, chicken, and farmed fish.

50 million hectares of land has been converted to soybean plantations in Argentina, Brazil and Paraguay. That's twice the size of the UK. They are destroying the Amazon rainforest, and have wiped out 78% of Paraguay's interior Atlantic rainforest.

The reason I'm banging on about China, soybeans, and South America is because none of that is relevant to Ireland. Irish meat eating is sustainable, it's humane, and it's not devastating the planet. If you are really against indecent animal practices, look to the US. If you're worried about damage to the environment caused by meat eating, look to the meatification of Asia's diet.

Ireland is grand.

This is absurd, quite possibly the most misleading post I have read so far in this thread - and as you can imagine, that takes some beating.

First of all....Ireland is not a country isolated in a distant planet in another galaxy. Ireland is part of the Western world, it is part of the world capitalist system. It is part of the entire chain of abuse and torture. Or do you not have any McDonalds in Dublin? I'm just imagining their presence? Or Subways? Or the thousands of other of American brands? Ireland is willingly part of the capitalist system of cruelty. And so is the EU, I mean does anyone honestly believe, except for American Republicans who hate anything Europe, that the EU does not uphold capitalist principles?

Second of all....it is staggering that you suggest that animals deprived of their natural settings, mistreated and ultimately slaughtered can be "treated unbelievably well." What you are describing is statistics of marginally larger spaces than afforded to American farmed animals. I can not believe that you are upholding this as an argument "well at least we're not as bad as the Americans, so it means we're great." Less cruelty does not mean no cruelty. Is there any human being on this planet you'd be perfectly happy with if they were treated cruelly, but just a bit less cruelly than people in other places? No there isn't, and it's because you don't believe sentient beings have a right to live and have a right to their own existence in their natural habitat. That is the main issue here. That is what you are trying to avoid. And there is no "humane way" to slaughter an animal, or a person, or any sentient being. "Humane murder" is a ridiculous phrase and I do not understand how any rational thinking person can defend it. One method can be "quicker" than an other, all have the same result.

Third of all - and this again repeating things, it doesn't matter that Ireland is not as bad as China, or the U.S., or other places. I have never suggested such a thing. The question is not who is worse. The question is who is going to be the first to stop it.

Edited first post with this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhBWDzkqEPY

Plryty · 23-05-2015 10:42pm

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Don't forget, refined carbs come from vegetation too. There are vitamins and minerals in all plant foods.

You are right, fruits are not as nutritious as vegetables. I love fruit, but I don't feel my body needs it - so I don't eat it.

I think people eat too much fruit and juices too. Especially when told to eat more fruit & veg - most will load up on fruit rather than veg.

My body has adapted, I believe, to getting more energy from fat. Which is good as this energy released slower than carbs.

Whilst plant sources of course do have minerals, they suffer from at least two serious setbacks that I'm aware of, which make meat a better source for minerals

1) They tend to have lower bioavailability due to the plant producing something called anti-nutrients. These anti-nutrients do actually have some beneficial properties in the human diet despite what many seem to think, but they act as chelators or in other words they bind up the minerals like iron, zinc etc preventing our body absorbing them in our gut.
Refinement is simply a food processing technology.
2) Meat sources tend to be more concentrated in minerals because of a process called bioaccumulation, minerals tend to be excreted rather slowly from the body. This is most notable in mercury, whereby you get a magnification effect of low mercury content in simple seafoods like mussels, where as carnivore fish further up the food chain accumulate the mercury content to dangerous levels from feeding on lots of the bottom fish.

This, alongside poor nutritional understanding even amongst vegetarians/vegans such as high consumption of fruits at the expense of veg as you say, probably explains why vegetarians and vegans tend to be risk-groups for nutritional deficiencies in minerals. Like I said, cutting out food groups tends to be a bad idea for these type of reasons

ThinkProgress · 23-05-2015 10:43pm

LoTR wrote: »

I did not say it was the entire solution, I said that it starts there. You don't need to have all the problems in the universe solved in order to take the first step - which is simply not choosing meat next time you go into the supermarket, or food place. You start with the choices you make yourself. And is every single post here going to ignore that millions of vegetarians have proven it is perfectly possible to live healthy without eating meat? You start with there. No one has ever said the world is going to be changed overnight. But it's absurd not to do anything - not to do the simplest of things, which is not purchasing torture and death for animals. There is absolutely no excuse for that.

I don't believe everybody (or possibly anybody) is suited to living on a solely plant-based diet.

I think there are just as many examples of unhealthy veg & vegans as healthy ones. And there are hundreds of millions of examples of healthy meat eaters.

Why does meat fully digest in the human body and plant matter doesn't? If eating animals is something that we need to abandon, why is it so nutritious for our bodies?

Why were the healthiest, wealthiest, strongest and longest living people in past generations the ones who had access to more meat?

And the poorest, most unhealthy individuals forced to eat cheap crops like corn, rice or wheat in huge quantities? (or potatoes for us Irish in our worst time in history)

It's ok for wealthy people in first world countries to "Go Vegan" or "Go Vegetarian" and still manage to get all their essential nutrients.... it's a different story when a poor person attempts it!

If meat is something we should abandon, why has it had such an important place in our diet for... well since forever!?

I don't think it's because we're in love with blood or slaughter... in fact I think we ate meat in spite of that fact. That's the real reason we don't like to see the production process. We need it - and we probably wish we didn't - but we do!

You think it's a simple choice, but have you considered that maybe you're body is a bit different to other people's? Is that possible? (I honestly don't know - maybe some people don't NEED meat and others do?)

Fratton Fred · 23-05-2015 10:47pm

They can do a referendum if they like, as long as eating meat is criminalised for everyone regardless of their race, Faith, gender or sexual orientation.

jungleman · 23-05-2015 10:54pm

LoTR wrote: »

This is absurd, quite possibly the most misleading post I have read so far in this thread - and as you can imagine, that takes some beating.

First of all....Ireland is not a country isolated in a distant planet in another galaxy. Ireland is part of the Western world, it is part of the world capitalist system. It is part of the entire chain of abuse and torture. Or do you not have any McDonalds in Dublin? I'm just imagining their presence? Or Subways? Or the thousands of other of American brands? Ireland is willingly part of the capitalist system of cruelty. And so is the EU, I mean does anyone honestly believe, except for American Republicans who hate anything Europe, that the EU does not uphold capitalist principles?

Second of all....it is staggering that you suggest that animals deprived of their natural settings, mistreated and ultimately slaughtered can be "treated unbelievably well." What you are describing is statistics of marginally larger spaces than afforded to American farmed animals. I can not believe that you are upholding this as an argument "well at least we're not as bad as the Americans, so it means we're great." Less cruelty does not mean no cruelty. Is there any human being on this planet you'd be perfectly happy with if they were treated cruelly, but just a bit less cruelly than people in other places? No there isn't, and it's because you don't believe sentient beings have a right to live and have a right to their own existence in their natural habitat. That is the main issue here. That is what you are trying to avoid. And there is no "humane way" to slaughter an animal, or a person, or any sentient being. "Humane murder" is a ridiculous phrase and I do not understand how any rational thinking person can defend it. One method can be "quicker" than an other, all have the same result.

Third of all - and this again repeating things, it doesn't matter that Ireland is not as bad as China, or the U.S., or other places. I have never suggested such a thing. The question is not who is worse. The question is who is going to be the first to stop it.

Edited first post with this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhBWDzkqEPY

Wow. Okay this is hilarious.

First of all, let me assure you I am well aware of how capitalism works. I'm a geographer, baby.

Second of all, Ireland has lots of McDonalds. Which sell Irish beef. Guaranteed Irish beef. The food is pure muck, but that's besides the point. Yeah it's an American brand, but the franchises in Ireland only use Irish beef. No Irish cattle are abused or tortured. I think you know that very well.

Okay next of all, you talk about "animals being deprived of their natural settings". Irish cattle are reared in fields. Large open spaces.... If cattle aren't supposed to be there, then what is their "natural setting"? In an office? In outer space? You're talking nonsense, man!

I'm speaking about the subject as someone who has studied global foodscapes and who knows a bit about it. Your arguments are pretty weak and emotive, in fairness. You completely glossed over my last post and took from it little bits which you twisted into a mish-mash of drivel. You're passionate about the subject and that's grand, but you're not making a coherent argument.

Plryty · 23-05-2015 10:55pm

LoTR wrote: »

This is absurd, quite possibly the most misleading post I have read so far in this thread - and as you can imagine, that takes some beating.

First of all....Ireland is not a country isolated in a distant planet in another galaxy. Ireland is part of the Western world, it is part of the world capitalist system. It is part of the entire chain of abuse and torture. Or do you not have any McDonalds in Dublin? I'm just imagining their presence? Or Subways? Or the thousands of other of American brands? Ireland is willingly part of the capitalist system of cruelty. And so is the EU, I mean does anyone honestly believe, except for American Republicans who hate anything Europe, that the EU does not uphold capitalist principles?

Second of all....it is staggering that you suggest that animals deprived of their natural settings, mistreated and ultimately slaughtered can be "treated unbelievably well." What you are describing is statistics of marginally larger spaces than afforded to American farmed animals. I can not believe that you are upholding this as an argument "well at least we're not as bad as the Americans, so it means we're great." Less cruelty does not mean no cruelty. Is there any human being on this planet you'd be perfectly happy with if they were treated cruelly, but just a bit less cruelly than people in other places? No there isn't, and it's because you don't believe sentient beings have a right to live and have a right to their own existence in their natural habitat. That is the main issue here. That is what you are trying to avoid. And there is no "humane way" to slaughter an animal, or a person, or any sentient being. "Humane murder" is a ridiculous phrase and I do not understand how any rational thinking person can defend it. One method can be "quicker" than an other, all have the same result.

Third of all - and this again repeating things, it doesn't matter that Ireland is not as bad as China, or the U.S., or other places. I have never suggested such a thing. The question is not who is worse. The question is who is going to be the first to stop it.

And the vegan clothes you buy come from companies which sell other non-vegan clothes products produced in factories which also manufactur non-vegan clothings, thus you supporting them is inadvertently aiding companies that support practices you are against i.e the use of animals. The vegan foods you buy, will come from plots of land that were developed for agriculture & displaced a number of species. The harvesting of this vegan food-produce will result in unavoidable collateral deaths of various native rodents & bird species. But of course, your baseline for what is depriving animals of their natural settings seems to only extend as far as farmed animals.

jackofalltrades · 23-05-2015 10:58pm

LoTR wrote: »

Seeing as you like referendums so much, and like "setting things right," I am just wondering when you will have a Yes/No referendum on whether brutality, depravity, torture, and the horrific killings of other sentient beings is something the Irish people will continue to support and strongly engage with, or stand up against?

Just to clarify, are you calling for a complete ban on animal farming and for everyone to turn vegan?

Wibbs · 23-05-2015 11:28pm

Shenshen wrote: »

I think it's morally dubious to feed anybody anything - what they want to eat should be up to each individual.

The only thing we should be giving people is choices. And as much information as they need in order to make an informed choice.

+1000

jungleman wrote: »

Wow. Okay this is hilarious.

JM, bear in mind you're dealing with a hippie and as such any appeal to logic is falling on permanently deaf ears. They will never be satisfied. No matter what. Even if they gained their "utopia", they'd still have an illogical whine about something wrong in paradise. Seriously JM, it's best if you don't engage too deeply in the first place.

Sam Kade · 23-05-2015 11:35pm

LoTR wrote: »

This is absurd, quite possibly the most misleading post I have read so far in this thread - and as you can imagine, that takes some beating.

First of all....Ireland is not a country isolated in a distant planet in another galaxy. Ireland is part of the Western world, it is part of the world capitalist system. It is part of the entire chain of abuse and torture. Or do you not have any McDonalds in Dublin? I'm just imagining their presence? Or Subways? Or the thousands of other of American brands? Ireland is willingly part of the capitalist system of cruelty. And so is the EU, I mean does anyone honestly believe, except for American Republicans who hate anything Europe, that the EU does not uphold capitalist principles?

Second of all....it is staggering that you suggest that animals deprived of their natural settings, mistreated and ultimately slaughtered can be "treated unbelievably well." What you are describing is statistics of marginally larger spaces than afforded to American farmed animals. I can not believe that you are upholding this as an argument "well at least we're not as bad as the Americans, so it means we're great." Less cruelty does not mean no cruelty. Is there any human being on this planet you'd be perfectly happy with if they were treated cruelly, but just a bit less cruelly than people in other places? No there isn't, and it's because you don't believe sentient beings have a right to live and have a right to their own existence in their natural habitat. That is the main issue here. That is what you are trying to avoid. And there is no "humane way" to slaughter an animal, or a person, or any sentient being. "Humane murder" is a ridiculous phrase and I do not understand how any rational thinking person can defend it. One method can be "quicker" than an other, all have the same result.

Third of all - and this again repeating things, it doesn't matter that Ireland is not as bad as China, or the U.S., or other places. I have never suggested such a thing. The question is not who is worse. The question is who is going to be the first to stop it.

Edited first post with this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhBWDzkqEPY

Why don't you stay in your perfect little world you have in your head and let the real world carry on? You don't like eating meat other people do get over it.

Panda_Turtle · 23-05-2015 11:36pm

Halal meat should be criminalized IMO.

Basically this is the Islamic form of slaughter whereby they must cut the animals throat, a more gruesome way than others where the animal is stunned.

What is halal meat?
By Nick Eardley
BBC News

But overall there should be more checks in place i.e. video surveillance etc. to minimize suffering.

jungleman · 23-05-2015 11:38pm

Wibbs wrote: »

JM, bear in mind you're dealing with a hippie and as such any appeal to logic is falling on permanently deaf ears. They will never be satisfied. No matter what. Even if they gained their "utopia", they'd still have an illogical whine about something wrong in paradise. Seriously JM, it's best if you don't engage too deeply in the first place.

Yep, I'm gonna back away from this one, alright. A la Homer disappearing into the hedge.

ThinkProgress · 23-05-2015 11:49pm

Panda_Turtle wrote: »

But overall there should be more checks in place i.e. video surveillance etc. to minimize suffering.

I don't think we need to go all CSI on our farmers... most are not inherently cruel by nature. They have a job that requires being a bit desensitized - but most are quite humane!

What people like the OP might fail to realize is that we have probably always been the natural predator for these herding animals. And as we became more advanced in our methods, we've simply become more efficient at "hunting" them...

If Lions could do the same, I'm sure they would. They'd also eat the OP without any remorse... although they'd probably still be hungry afterwards.

blatantrereg · 23-05-2015 11:51pm

ThinkProgress wrote: »

It's ok for wealthy people in first world countries to "Go Vegan" or "Go Vegetarian" and still manage to get all their essential nutrients.... it's a different story when a poor person attempts it!

A healthy vegetarian diet is generally cheaper than healthy omni diet. This is especially true if when you restrict matters to essential nutrients.

Lentils and chick peas are highly nutritious and cheap sources of protein, as well as other nutrients which omni diets generally depend on meat for. If you want a high protein diet add in some homemade seitan, which is quick and easy to make, very tasty meat substitute. It's made from gluten which you can buy in bulk very cheaply.

Or alternatively, look at the difference in restaurant prices between veg and meat dishes. If the meat dishes aren't significantly more expensive the vegetarians are probably being ripped off (or the omni people are eating offal).

malnurtured · 24-05-2015 12:02am

folamh wrote: »

Paleo's supposed to be an ideal to strive toward, not something that's negated by not emulating exactly. Most of us are sleeping in 8-hour blocks and exposing ourselves to artificial light, after all. And eating big sweet fruit rather than small bitter wildberries. And yeah some foods such as broccoli are fairly new, but the critical thing is that they have a similar nutritional composition to old veggies. The fact that modern humans don't emulate it perfectly doesn't really constitute "debunking paleo".

The whole point of the Paleo diet is that it was what our ancestors would've eaten, right? But that's not even possible anymore, seeing as food evolves as we do and it isn't the same. Stuff like dairy which they wouldn't have access to is definitely good for your health in moderation too, and you're limiting your intake of vital vitamins and minerals when you throw out a significant portion of modern food. I think it stems from the whole 'it's natural, therefore it must be good' argument, otherwise known as the naturalistic fallacy. I don't see how this is an ideal to strive towards, honestly, but then again I haven't done a lot of research, this is an outsider's view.

ThinkProgress · 24-05-2015 12:05am

blatantrereg wrote: »

A healthy vegetarian diet is generally cheaper than healthy omni diet. This is especially true if when you restrict matters to essential nutrients.

Lentils and chick peas are highly nutritious and cheap sources of protein, as well as other nutrients which omni diets generally depend on meat for. If you want a high protein diet add in some homemade seitan, which is quick and easy to make, very tasty meat substitute. It's made from gluten which you can buy in bulk very cheaply.

Or alternatively, look at the difference in restaurant prices between veg and meat dishes. If the meat dishes aren't significantly more expensive the vegetarians are probably being ripped off (or the omni people are eating offal).

I don't think it is cheaper, because in the long run you need to eat a far bigger quantity of food to keep hunger away and get all the nutrients you need!

I know this from experience trying different veg & vegan diets.

Meat can be costly, but not compared with how much chickpeas or lentils you'd need to consume. Plus fat is very important, which many meats & dairy have in large amounts.

And it's just so much healthier to get all your nutrients, while eating less volume of food. Better for your digestion and better for gut, stomach, bowel etc...

Veg & vegan diets put too much tax on the body's digestive system.

blatantrereg · 24-05-2015 12:06am

Plryty wrote: »

y vegetarians and vegans tend to be risk-groups for nutritional deficiencies in minerals

Western vegetarians are not deficient in minerals.

I've already posted about how phytic acid really isn't as big a deal as people tend to think.

Western vegetarians are likely to have lower levels of DHA, carnosine and creatine. None of these are essential nutrients and affordable supplements are available for all three. Lower carnosine levels are offset by significantly lower AGE consumption.

It is important that vegans supplement with vitamin B12 (directly or via fortified food).

blatantrereg · 24-05-2015 12:13am

ThinkProgress wrote: »

I don't think it is cheaper, because in the long run you need to eat a far bigger quantity of food to keep hunger away and get all the nutrients you need!

I know this from experience trying different veg & vegan diets.

Meat can be costly, but not compared with how much chickpeas or lentils you'd need to consume. Plus fat is very important, which many meats & dairy have in large amounts.

And it's just so much healthier to get all your nutrients, while eating less volume of food. Better for your digestion and better for gut, stomach, bowel etc...

Veg & vegan diets put too much tax on the body's digestive system.

Lentils and chick peas are extremely cheap. You don't need to eat an especially large amount of food to get sufficient nutrients on a vegetarian diet.

Even high protein requirements can be easily met through consumption of meat substitutes like tempeh or seitan. (While avergae protein requiremnets are easily met, you would need to eat a lot of lentils to satisfy a high protein requirement.) Seitan can also be made very cheaply also. Your minimum protein requirement is about .8g per kg body weight if not overweight. You can safely at least double that and might benefit from doing so in certain contexts (for example trying to lose weight while conserving muscle).

The first time I tried a vegetarian diet I quit it after a few months. When I informed myself about vegetarian nutrition and tried again it was much better.
Personally I noticed greatly improved digestion after adopting a vegetarian diet.

On the subject of antinutrients, excessive protein consumption can lead to calcium being leached from bones and a toxic buildup. Excessive urination can be indicative of excessive protein consumption as far as I recall.

edit: I understand the .8g/kg factors in bioavailability of about 85%, which is typical for vegetarian source. The actual minimum of absorbed protein is about .66g/kg.

ThinkProgress · 24-05-2015 12:43am

blatantrereg wrote: »

Lentils and chick peas are extremely cheap. You don't need to eat an especially large amount of food to get sufficient nutrients on a vegetarian diet.
Even high protein requirements can be easily met through consumption of meat substitutes like tempeh or seitan. Seitan can also be made very cheaply also.
The first time I tried a vegetarian diet I quit it after a few months. When I informed myself about vegetarian nutrition and tried again it was much better.
Personally I noticed greatly improved digestion after adopting a vegetarian diet.

If plant matter is perfect, complete nutrition for us humans... why do we need V12 shots when we take it to extreme vegan parameters?

Why do we not have teeth like all other herbivores? (sheep and cows) Hell why don't we just eat the grass and leave the cows alone?

Why do we have internal organs to match the foods we consume? Our stomach is perfect for fermenting and digesting animal protein. Small intestine for mixing chyme and enzymes and absorbing water. The gallbladder to store bile - essential for breaking down and assimilating the fats, amino acids, fatty acids, monosaccharides.

We are perfectly adapted for eating meat. Our body loves the stuff.

Plant material, however, while we need some - we can't tolerate large amounts. It causes bloating and the fiber can cause long term dysfunction is eaten to excess. Plant matter is never fully digested in our body!

al22 · 24-05-2015 12:59am

Joke - there is no law or criminal proscution for animals including people) to consume (eat) oter animals (including other people). Non on any country.
Can be prosecuted for killing people but not for eating people.

Who cares for non-human animals? Too early - the World is not developed enough yet.

So when will there be a referendum on criminalizing meat eating?

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