So when will there be a referendum on criminalizing meat eating?

RandomName2

This is the thing about vegitarians and vegans that get on my nerves. Also about non-veggies!

Why is it all the same? Brutally torturing and killing animals which are subsequently eaten is seen as exactly the same as killing animals for food. Reality check: there is no need for animals to be treated cruelly - regardless of whether or not there's meat processing involved! Gah!

pconn062

Sam Kade wrote: »

We were talking about Ireland not the UK You worked on several farms :rolleyes: but you refer to US words to describe them yeah right.

Eh, you were the one to mention the UK first?

And I don't what you mean by "US words" but I imagine it's your way of trying to back out of the argument so I'll leave you to it.

Geniass

The logical step after this is to stop all animals eating other animals.

Of course that would be cruel to meat only eating animals so they would need to be put down, along with domesticated animals such as cows etc. that have evolved to be looked after by humans (there is no wild for them to survive unless we put aside huge chunks of land for a bovine sanctuary.

Maybe as a reparations for all the years of eating them. We can evacuate the displaced humans.

DeadHand

Geniass wrote: »

The logical step after this is to stop all animals eating other animals.

Of course that would be cruel to meat only eating animals so they would need to be put down, along with domesticated animals such as cows etc. that have evolved to be looked after by humans (there is no wild for them to survive unless we put aside huge chunks of land for a bovine sanctuary.

Maybe as a reparations for all the years of eating them. We can evacuate the displaced humans.

No, no.

Listen to the zealots! The great friesian herds will be allowed to roam free and noble on the plains of Meath! We'll ethnically cleanse all those mean old farmers (Nazis!) from the land and pass it over to our animal equals! Benjy the gay (and castrated, and slowly dying) bull can be their chief!

These people have an Enid Blyton view of the countryside. Infantile.

DeadHand

RandomName2 wrote: »

Brutally torturing and killing animals which are subsequently eaten is seen as exactly the same as killing animals for food

And, (apart from rare, isolated incidents) food animals are not brutally tortured and killed in this country. They are reared and kept to strictly enforced, high animal welfare standards and slaughtered as painlessly and humanely as possible under departmental, veterinary supervision and, nowadays, even the supervision of dedicated welfare officers.

Those who dribble about "torture" have no idea what they are talking about. The nearest most have gotten to actual livestock was the school outing to a petting zoo.

folamh

OP, more on bivalvitarianism: http://sentientist.org/2013/05/20/the-ethical-case-for-eating-oysters-and-mussels

ToddyDoody

LoTR wrote: »

My dear Irish friends,

Seeing as you like referendums so much, and like "setting things right,".

*heads for the door*

Cee-Jay-Cee

OP do you type out "the brutality, depravity, torture, and the horrific killings of other sentient beings" each time or cut and paste it from the numerous other times you typed/used it?

Sam Kade

pconn062 wrote: »

Eh, you were the one to mention the UK first?

And I don't what you mean by "US words" but I imagine it's your way of trying to back out of the argument so I'll leave you to it.

You need to eat some meat to get you brain in gear. Let me make it clearer for you you said you worked on several Irish farms then use phrases like raising cattle on pasture which more than likely you picked up from an American youtube video. Here we say rear cattle on grass, what type of work did you do on all these farms?

Geniass

Sam Kade wrote: »

Here we say rear cattle on grass, what type of work did you do on all these farms?

He was an AI man.


























Except for the artificial bit :pac:

LoTR

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

OP do you type out "the brutality, depravity, torture, and the horrific killings of other sentient beings" each time or cut and paste it from the numerous other times you typed/used it?

Type it out. Because this is what this really is about. The brutality, depravity, torture, and the horrific killings of other sentient beings. I doubt there has been a single discussion ever on the internet not to confuse this issue with a general "is eating meat ok?" But in the western capitalist world, of which Ireland is a proud member, the two are inseparable. If you are purchasing meat, from the store, from the restaurant etc. you are contributing to the inhuman atrocities you see in the video in the first post. This thread is a good example of all the different mental gymnastics people (supposedly good, "progressive" thinking people) will perform to trick their souls into thinking it's ok for them to continue funding this practice with their wallets and their choices. Some have outright admitted they will not watch the video or read any of my links at all - yet they will reply, they will talk when they refuse to listen and refuse to see.

One day this this will change, one day people will look back at how humans treated animals and the "excuses" they used to justify it, and they will be absolutely sickened and absolutely revolted.

“The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.” ― Martin Luther King Jr. said, and I believe that. The question is what will be left of the planet when the masses start waking up.

Irelandcool

Nothing like hunting deer in ireland with good old fashion flint spears. Then using the skin for clothes and then eat the meat.
I better just bring this back to me hut. Ah isn't it great that we live in the stone age.

FanadMan

LoTR wrote: »

One day this this will change, one day people will look back at how humans treated animals and the "excuses" they used to justify it, and they will be absolutely sickened and absolutely revolted.

No it won't. Humans have eaten meat since time immemorial, humans eat meat now and humans will continue to eat meat forever.

porsche959

So Morrissey, who has never even had the guts to officially 'come out' (oh yeah, you're celibate, whatever) is now patronisingly congratulating the Irish on the Yes vote and saying we need to do more on animal rights?

What a ****ing plank.

porsche959

LoTR wrote: »

Type it out. Because this is what this really is about. The brutality, depravity, torture, and the horrific killings of other sentient beings. I doubt there has been a single discussion ever on the internet not to confuse this issue with a general "is eating meat ok?" But in the western capitalist world, of which Ireland is a proud member, the two are inseparable. If you are purchasing meat, from the store, from the restaurant etc. you are contributing to the inhuman atrocities you see in the video in the first post. This thread is a good example of all the different mental gymnastics people (supposedly good, "progressive" thinking people) will perform to trick their souls into thinking it's ok for them to continue funding this practice with their wallets and their choices. Some have outright admitted they will not watch the video or read any of my links at all - yet they will reply, they will talk when they refuse to listen and refuse to see.

One day this this will change, one day people will look back at how humans treated animals and the "excuses" they used to justify it, and they will be absolutely sickened and absolutely revolted.

“The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.” ― Martin Luther King Jr. said, and I believe that. The question is what will be left of the planet when the masses start waking up.

^ This has to be a p.isstake.

ThinkProgress

porsche959 wrote: »

^ This has to be a p.isstake.

Faux moral outrage. Gives some people's lives a sense of meaning to chastise other people!

If the OP was sincere in their concerns for animal welfare, they would use their energy to create worthwhile and innovative solutions to the problems they see.

I think most people could smell what this thread was about from the very beginning!

blatantrereg

porsche959 wrote: »

So Morrissey, who has never even had the guts to officially 'come out' (oh yeah, you're celibate, whatever) is now patronisingly congratulating the Irish on the Yes vote and saying we need to do more on animal rights?

What a ****ing plank.

In fairness he was public about a relationship with a guy in 1994, so his quibbling about the correct label is just quibbling about the correct label. Possibly annoying and attention seeking, but not cowardly.

I was going to say he's also a long-term vegan. However I checked my facts, and I don't think he actually is. Think I just assumed he is because he's very vocal about meat eating for a very long time. The moral outrage he expresses could be first directed internally then.

Yeah he's a bit full of sh!t alright.

Educate self about veg*n diet. Demonstrate viability. Provide info if people are interested. Don't misrepresent or cherry pick facts to push an agenda... These sorts of things might promote veg*nism... Berating people for eating meat just reaffirms negative stereotypes of squawking pale hippies.

jungleman

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Faux moral outrage. Gives some people's lives a sense of meaning to chastise other people!

If the OP was sincere in their concerns for animal welfare, they would use their energy to create worthwhile and innovative solutions to the problems they see.

I think most people could smell what this thread was about from the very beginning!

And if he really wanted to make any kind of a convincing argument OP could have quoted some academic sources, instead of a facebook page and that rag-masquerading-as-a-broadsheet The Independent.

kylith

I am genuinely curious as to whether it is possible to live a vegan lifestyle solely on locally produced food. For example I could go and buy a couple of acres of land and grow vegetables and rear poultry and rabbits and live a totally self-sustaining life on that. Is it possible for vegans to do the same or is it a lifestyle that depends very heavily on imported (therefore having a massive carbon footprint) foods and synthetic supplements?

blatantrereg

kylith wrote: »

I am genuinely curious as to whether it is possible to live a vegan lifestyle solely on locally produced food. For example I could go and buy a couple of acres of land and grow vegetables and rear poultry and rabbits and live a totally self-sustaining life on that. Is it possible for vegans to do the same or is it a lifestyle that depends very heavily on imported (therefore having a massive carbon footprint) foods and synthetic supplements?

Interesting question. Climate is too cold for soy. Apparently lentils and chickpeas are viable though. http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/24/ask-alys-chickpeas-from-seed

Not aware of any Irish producers though. Vegan diets generally do depend on imported foods. Taking imports into account the net effect is reportedly a 33% reduction in carbon footprint compared to an omni diet. (20% reduction for vegeatrian.) Source for this info is also The Guardian, so it is specific to UK, but I think Ireland is similar enough in terms of what is available locally and distance from producers for imports.

kylith

blatantrereg wrote: »

Interesting question. Climate is too cold for soy. Apparently lentils and chickpeas are viable though. http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/24/ask-alys-chickpeas-from-seed

Not aware of any Irish producers though. Vegan diets generally do depend on imported foods. Taking imports into account the net effect is reportedly a 33% reduction in carbon footprint compared to an omni diet. (20% reduction for vegeatrian.) Source for this info is also The Guardian, so it is specific to UK, but I think Ireland is similar enough in terms of what is available locally and distance from producers for imports.

I would have thought that the dependence on imported foods would have lead to an increase in carbon footprint. Is it to do with the carbon footprint of raising meat, I wonder? Or is it that omnivores tend to have a more varied diet in general regarding things like biscuits and snack foods which may be produced overseas.

blatantrereg

kylith wrote: »

I would have thought that the dependence on imported foods would have lead to an increase in carbon footprint. Is it to do with the carbon footprint of raising meat, I wonder? Or is it that omnivores tend to have a more varied diet in general regarding things like biscuits and snack foods which may be produced overseas.

It's probably mainly because farming cows has a very high impact on the environment. This includes dairy cows. [If concerned with sustainability perhaps cutting out beef and dairy only would be more beneficial than going vegetarian but still eating dairy.]

Tried to dig up my source. Didn't find it, but the figures appear to be conservative. For example this journal paper says UK vegans have a dietary blueprint about half that of omnivores:

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10584-014-1169-1

Interesting that there is such a small difference between vegetarians and fish eaters in the study. This supports the notion that most of the environmental impact of animal based diets is down to cows.

edit: There's a list of the estimated carbon footprint of many foods inside the article. 100g of fish or chicken has a carbon footprint equivalent to about 110g of eggs or 300ml of milk or a little under 8g of beef - or about 165g of pulses. Pork isn't too bad. Offal is very high for reasons I'm not aware of. "Other meat" is very high, as is "animal fats".
So basically red meat has a shockingly high impact, while most other animal foods are more in line with non-animal foods in terms of environmental impact.

kylith

blatantrereg wrote: »

It's probably mainly because farming cows has a very high impact on the environment. This includes dairy cows. [If concerned with sustainability perhaps cutting out beef and dairy only would be more beneficial than going vegetarian but still eating dairy.]

Tried to dig up my source. Didn't find it, but the figures appear to be conservative. For example this journal paper says UK vegans have a dietary blueprint about half that of omnivores:

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10584-014-1169-1

Interesting that there is such a small difference between vegetarians and fish eaters in the study. This supports the notion that most of the environmental impact of animal based diets is down to cows.

Very interesting, thanks.

Still not giving up meat though

Mesrine65

Meat means dinner :eek:

Crooked Jack

When will we have a referendum on the brutality, depravity, torture, and the horrific killings of other living things such as crops, fruit and vegetables?

Duggy747

porsche959 wrote: »

So Morrissey, who has never even had the guts to officially 'come out' (oh yeah, you're celibate, whatever) is now patronisingly congratulating the Irish on the Yes vote and saying we need to do more on animal rights?

Ah yea, the same Morrissey who called the Chinese a subspecies.

He's an insufferable prick.

Samaris

Eh. The original post was a bit daft and in no way conducive to a proper debate on the subject, so fair play on everyone for actually managing a debate.

Firstly, this is not a matter for a referendum. There is no change required to the Constitution.

Secondly, Ireland is a dairy country. Our economy still relies greatly on dairy and meat farming, and not all of the land that we can use to farm animals on will be sufficient for crop planting. So, would going veggie entirely support our population? I don't know, but I do know that wiping out the livelihoods of a large chunk of our population would not be popular, not to mention the hit to the economy in eradicating a large source of our exports. You can consider that an evil point of view if you wish, but it's a problem.

Thirdly, regardless of whether or not we can happily subsist on a vegetarian diet, it would cause a huge upswing in eating fish, and over-fishing is a major issue already. At the moment, we are already looking at scarce fish populations where once fish were abundant, with consequent effects on the rest of the foodchain in the oceans. Disturbing that balance further by making fish an even more valuable foodsource would be very foolish.

It is true that farming meat is more costly to the earth than farming crops, and we could do with farming less of it, although our ecosystems have evolved to account for the presence of cattle-herds, etc. Suddenly removing them could have adverse effects. We would also need to cover much more of our landspace with crops for the same amount of nutrients, which will also require physically changing some of that landspace, which is costly in itself. Not just in terms of money, but in terms of energy use and ecosystem change.

You will never change peoples minds by throwing around words like "depraved" and "brutal" for perfectly natural processes (eating meat). Even if you suddenly became a totalitarian dictator of the earth, you wouldn't end omnivory. Like it or not, it IS how we were designed/evolved (however you wish to phrase it), and that is why we crave meat. We have a long history of it, and that is not wrong or evil, it is just how it is.

ThinkProgress

kylith wrote: »

I am genuinely curious as to whether it is possible to live a vegan lifestyle solely on locally produced food. For example I could go and buy a couple of acres of land and grow vegetables and rear poultry and rabbits and live a totally self-sustaining life on that. Is it possible for vegans to do the same or is it a lifestyle that depends very heavily on imported (therefore having a massive carbon footprint) foods and synthetic supplements?

You could, but ask yourself is this a realistic model for a world-wide solution? Or is it a 1st world solution to a world-wide problem?

Even if we shared farms in large communes, I don't think this would be attainable for everybody. We'd quickly run out of fertile land and then you also have the cost and time involved. (and of course people will insist on organic - which reduces production capacity and increases cost further)

I believe the solution must involve mass production of food. We must use science to create healthy food that can be produced in minimal space, for minimal cost.

Cows produce A LOT more than just dairy and beef for the land they occupy. They are currently a better use of the land economically speaking than crops.

What we actually get from cows: http://api.ning.com/files/m1FL*rlKeI3mxBSXvUIu4ohLCxN6GtsXmspaH4og9oVN-iXI44X*54TAJiFaoT1HZyYIxV76cdjcgJ--i-swb69dcdPZ8M4f/NoSuchThingAsAVegan.jpg

LoTR

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Faux moral outrage. Gives some people's lives a sense of meaning to chastise other people!

If the OP was sincere in their concerns for animal welfare, they would use their energy to create worthwhile and innovative solutions to the problems they see.

I think most people could smell what this thread was about from the very beginning!

It's interesting that you can dismiss pretty much every single last moral argument in the world with that. As long as you feel not enough people are calling you out, you will continue convincing yourself that you are in the right.

But since you have asked for more information, I hope people will read and watch some of these below. There is more than enough evidence to present, from various sources.

Sustainable statistics on the damage modern day factory farming causes to the environment, to public health, to workers, and to animal welfare: http://www.sustainabletable.org/869/impacts-of-industrial-agriculture

Most important: Undercover investigations of the standard practices at factory farms across America and other countries in the western world: http://www.mercyforanimals.org/investigations

U.N. Environment Programme (Unep) study analyzing 'how farming practices are destroying the natural world.' http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/feb/18/halve-meat-consumption-scientists

Breakdown of the various types of abuses factory farmed animals suffer: https://www.aspca.org/fight-cruelty/farm-animal-cruelty/what-factory-farm

Nutrition guide for people wanting to become vegetarian or vegan, explaining as it has been shows by millions of people worldwide why it is more than possible, inexpensive and convenient to live without meat: http://www.chooseveg.com/foodplate

There is more than enough information, there is more then enough evidence, there is more than enough reasons to choose change, and there are practically no excuses left - other than if you don't feel society pressuring you to do the right thing, it is easier for you to ignore it or dismiss it.

Brancott

The problem is that cows are too tasty, steak, burgers, beef . . . . ahh man it's all good.
They are also one of the more stupid creatures I've ever experienced, the only reason they exist is to give us glorious quarter pounders, yum.
90% of these cows wouldn't exist were it not for us, you're born & get fed for free, you can roam around in large fields with other cows your age, the fatter you get the more the food keeps coming, then they put you in a trailer, bring you to a big special shed, then zap, you remember nothing more.
Mmmm burgers.