So when will there be a referendum on criminalizing meat eating?

LoTR

bnt wrote: »

Not entirely clear what the OP wants. He/She/It is under no obligation to eat meat and has always been free to be a vegetarian. Is that not enough, or is the idea to ban meat-eating for those of us who aren't vegetarian? Is so, that's a patronising idea that goes against the current liberal trend of letting people be who they are.

We are not arguing about what is the best color in the world, where one can go with the "liberal trend of letting people be who they are," we are talking about the lives and existences of other sentient beings. No one has any kind of right to deprive others of their life, to torture and mistreat them, whether they be human, dog, or pig. Every sentient being has the right to its own life in its natural setting. Clearly laws exist that prevent people from doing whatever it is they want to other people, I'm saying laws should exist to protect farm animals as well. There is no celestial definition that says dogs should be protected while farm animals abused and slaughtered, as the Western world seems to think.

Sam Kade

pconn062 wrote: »

I am a recent convert to vegetarianism. I've been having some difficulties in recent times with the way we rely on meat so much as part of our diet. I researched the topic and decided to make the choice to cut meat out on a trial basis to see how it goes. However I am determined not to become a preachy veggie, I think people need to inform themselves on the topic and make their own decisions.

If people researched the topic and knew the details behind modern factory farming and the way in which the majority of meat is produced (especially chicken and pork), I imagine many would reconsider their current position. The way industrialised farming has removed any compassion from animal husbandry is truly shocking. Sure, it makes for rough reading (and viewing if you wish) but it is the reality of modern farming and meat production. I think Paul McCartney's line still holds true "if slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be vegetarian". *


*Hope this doesn't sound too preachy!

Not many factory farms in Ireland. You obviously rely on youtube for your information on farming. McCartney talks nonsense. I been in a meat factory and seen the whole process from start to finish I still eat meat. I've also tried mccartneys wife's crap sausages and there's nothing like the real thing.

ThinkProgress

Shenshen wrote: »

I think it's morally dubious to feed anybody anything - what they want to eat should be up to each individual.

The only thing we should be giving people is choices. And as much information as they need in order to make an informed choice.

I'm not advocating any diet as superior over another for everybody. I think we are adaptable creatures... omnivores certainly. I agree with you about a varied diet - it's sensible.

I've tried many dietary ideas. From my experience, it's costly and time consuming to achieve optimal health on veg / vegan diets... I eat far less food when I include meat in my diet compared with any veg / vegan diet I attempted.

People also forget that there is a long term cost to your body when you ask it to digest large amounts of plant matter. It puts a tax on the digestion system over time. We fully digest meat - we don't fully digest plant matter! (I'm talking about too much raw fruit & veg predominantly)

Meat also makes us stronger, faster and probably smarter too. Many believe our meat consumption caused our brains to develop the way they have.

pconn062

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I don't know anybody who doesn't know full well how meat gets to the table. It's a delusion that everybody would turn vegan "if they only knew". They know. They don't.

I agree to a point, however I thought I knew how meat was produced these days. I live in rural Ireland and grew up working on farms. But during my reading on the topic I was shocked by the specific details related to modern, industrial, factory farming. Any sense of humane treatment that I seen on farms when I was younger seems to have been largely lost in the processes of factory farming. That shocked me and was enough to make me reconsider my diet (and I was a pretty big meat eater!).

LoTR

ThinkProgress wrote: »

The reality is, we have an expanding population - there is one rule for those in the developed world, and another for those in the underdeveloped world.

Find me a diet that is A) optimal for health kind to the animals and planet C) sustainable for 7 billion + people.....? Because that's basically the only way some of these peta / greenpeace types will ever be truely happy!

But those goals are not aligned together. The poor need to fed, and kept alive... the rich (or less poor) want to be well nourished for optimal health.

You can't feed the world on veg / vegan diet... unless you're talking rice... which I guess is technically achieving that goal. But at what cost to health / environment etc?

The reality of what some people want is just not achievable right now!

The "there is no alternative" argument is almost always used exclusively by capitalists, who insist it is the only political system under which humans can operate. That is absurd and does immense damage around the world, to people and animals alike. It is true that capitalism has pushed the world into a situation where it will be extremely difficult to change all that we are doing and scale back - but that does not mean that it's impossible. Is there any other truly horrible and despicable thing out there in the world where people will be fine with going "oh well it is as it is, so just leave it." ?

Bongalongherb

Ye've got to eat meat folks, good necessary protein to keep a healthy body healthy.

The day that criminalising meat eating comes in is the day I will be a skinny un-healthy long streak of misery.

Paramite Pie

LoTR wrote: »

"Earthlings" with Joaquin Phoenix is a fantastic documentary about this issue.

Have you ever watched a nature documentary? Lions? Bears? Hamsters?! Heck even my neighbours dog killed a wee kitten. The poor dog didn't know any better of course.

Nature is inherently cruel. I'm all for more transparency on slaughter houses and I'm firmly against cattle pens or chicken coops. Free range all the way. Most anti-meat documentaries focus on US mega farms, we've nothing like that here. I live in a rural area where I see a lot of farm animals out in fields. I know where my meat comes from & I'm okay with that.

It's the Circle of Life; Eat Eat Eat. Nom.

pconn062

Sam Kade wrote: »

Not many factory farms in Ireland. You obviously rely on youtube for your information on farming. McCartney talks nonsense. I been in a meat factory and seen the whole process from start to finish I still eat meat. I've also tried mccartneys wife's crap sausages and there's nothing like the real thing.

The majority of pork and chicken in this country is raised through industrial means. I certainly don't rely on youtube for my information, I've read most of the recent reports of farming methods specific to Ireland (and as I said, I live in rural Ireland and grew up working on farms).

I agree with you on McCartneys wife's sausages but I don't see what that has got to do with anything, seen as I don't eat or endorse them?!

Adamantium

folamh wrote: »

Br0tip: Just because we've evolutionarily adapted to post-agricultural foods like grains, doesn't mean they're optimal for our health. It just means that we can survive on them, not necessarily thrive. This is evidenced by the comparative lack of nutrients and vitamins in post-agricultural foods, as well as the presence of phytates in them (compounds designed to prevent access). I'm sick of people thinking they've debunked paleo eating by showing how our ancestors adapted to eat grains. It's not a health criterion.

As a very rough rule of thumb, the more ancient a food is in our history of consumption, the healthier it likely is for humans to consume.

That said, it's all a spectrum of better choices and worse choices, rather than a binary of good choices and bad choices! I'll eat me a nice big bowl of Neolithic quinoa over a Wispa bar.

We've not developed to eat grains at all, in fact they're probably the most large barrier to human health since 6000 years ago. Grains allowed the population to explode and survive.

Ancient nomads and meat eaters were likely far healthier, than we will ever be bar modern day athletes, be even though the dangers of chasing herds of animals meant that pre-agriculture lives were shorter (but not by much as many so often think). When the population and agriculture took off and grains allowed civilisation, our normal level of health declined.

When you think about it we just had to feed ourselves and the rest of time we could relax and play, it's one reason why people are so hesitant to contact isolated tribes in the rainforests because they could be ejected from the freedom of the 4th world into the hardships of the 3rd world, better off not knowing some would say

One historian reported that "Agriculture was the worst mistake in human history"

folamh

LoTR wrote: »

The "there is no alternative" argument is almost always used exclusively by capitalists, who insist it is the only political system under which humans can operate. That is absurd and does immense damage around the world, to people and animals alike. It is true that capitalism has pushed the world into a situation where it will be extremely difficult to change all that we are doing and scale back - but that does not mean that it's impossible. Is there any other truly horrible and despicable thing out there in the world where people will be fine with going "oh well it is as it is, so just leave it." ?

I would contend that the market competition and resulting efficiency of production of laissez-faire capitalism has served the needs of vegan consumers very well, and has provided them with many alternatives.

CK73

Shenshen wrote: »

That argument always amuses me, in fairness.

There are quite a number of strictly vegetarian species out there who would have a right laugh at the pitiful excuse for canines us humans carry around in our mouths.

Next time you chew a piece of meat, try and do that with your canines

I mostly do use them and the incisors as I lost the molars on the one side of my mouth due to braces as a child and a dodgy dentist as an adult. Chewing is arduous work, while cutting through meat is not a problem so much.

I do think that we should be prepared to kill the animals we eat and I do think it should be done humanly, but we were not designed to be vegetarians and I say that as someone who apparently comes from an arable background, if 'Eat right for your blood type' is to be believed.

I don't think we should be wasteful with meat products. I find it disrespectful to throw meat away, as an animal died for nothing and I don't think we are meant to eat it in the vast quantities that some do today, but it is part of our diet and personally I don't think it should be denied or disapproved of, just ask for a more respectful consumption.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Paramite Pie wrote: »

Have you ever watched a nature documentary? Lions? Bears? Hamsters?! Heck even my neighbours dog killed a wee kitten. The poor dog didn't know any better of course.

Nature is inherently cruel. I'm all for more transparency on slaughter houses and I'm firmly against cattle pens or chicken coops. Free range all the way. Most anti-meat documentaries focus on US mega farms, we've nothing like that here. I live in a rural area where I see a lot of farm animals out in fields. I know where my meat comes from & I'm okay with that.

It's the Circle of Life; Eat Eat Eat. Nom.

That bit in bold is sort of the crux of the matter isn't it?

Nature isn't cruel, it's amoral.

Shenshen

ThinkProgress wrote: »

I'm not advocating any diet as superior over another for everybody. I think we are adaptable creatures... omnivores certainly. I agree with you about a varied diet - it's sensible.

I've tried many dietary ideas. From my experience, it's costly and time consuming to achieve optimal health on veg / vegan diets... I eat far less food when I include meat in my diet compared with any veg / vegan diet I attempted.

People also forget that there is a long term cost to your body when you ask it to digest large amounts of plant matter. It puts a tax on the digestion system over time. We fully digest meat - we don't fully digest plant matter! (I'm talking about too much raw fruit & veg predominantly)

Meat also makes us stronger, faster and probably smarter too. Many believe our meat consumption caused our brains to develop the way they have.

My experience is the exact opposite, to be honest.
I find my diet since becoming vegetarian to be both cheaper and I find I need far less to feel full.

As far as health is concerned - I'm no nutritionist, I didn't become vegetarian for that reason, but my after my last check-up my GP told me to keep doing whatever it is I'm doing as she had rarely seen a 40+ year old in such good shape. Anecdotal, but that's all I have.

I have my doubts about the theory of meat being the trigger for our brain development.
Early hominids would not be able to easily obtain amounts of meat that would be significant enough to trigger such an evolution. Chimps and gorillas will hunt and eat some quantities of meat - but apparently not enough to make their brains and intelligence evolve significantly.
And then there's the obvious draw-back of the large number of parasites which might acquire you as a host if you eat raw meat. And the fact that our intestines are too long to properly digest uncooked meat.

However, nutrition would have played a role - a big brain is a hungry organ. And the biggest change we've ever made to our diets, the change that made more calories available to us while consuming the same amounts of food, was starting to cook food.

CK73

blatantrereg wrote: »

encouraged by whom? To my knowledge the biggest authorities generally push cutting out meat and dairy. E.g.: The UN. This is with the notion of a sustainable food supply for a growing population in mind.
Almost everyone is perfectly capable of thriving on a vegetarian diet. (We could not thrive on a wholly carnivorous diet on the other hand.)

Is that why vegetarians use vitamin and mineral capsules? Because they get everything they need from non meat products? I stand corrected.

jimmycrackcorm

If sentient animals have a right to live then what should we do with lions that hunt and kill gazelle?

Because as long as it's ok for one species to kill another for food then the argument only comes down to choice.

LoTR

Paramite Pie wrote: »

Have you ever watched a nature documentary? Lions? Bears? Hamsters?! Heck even my neighbours dog killed a wee kitten. The poor dog didn't know any better of course.

Nature is inherently cruel. I'm all for more transparency on slaughter houses and I'm firmly against cattle pens or chicken coops. Free range all the way. Most anti-meat documentaries focus on US mega farms, we've nothing like that here. I live in a rural area where I see a lot of farm animals out in fields. I know where my meat comes from & I'm okay with that.

It's the Circle of Life; Eat Eat Eat. Nom.

Second repeat on same question, but to be expected:

1) Lions and other wild animals also kill each others young, and kill others of the same species over disputes over territory, or mates. Why are humans then not allowed by law to murder babies, or murder other humans over land, or romantic interests? Why are these things considered crazy and sadistic? Because humans are supposed to have achievement some level of moral enlightenment, we are no longer cavemen killing everything and everyone that we see fit for our personal benefit.

2) "Free range" is the biggest lie of them all, it's a marketing scheme that plays on people's deep-rooted but suppressed realization that paying for torture and slaughter is wrong, by offering them a "choice" that makes them feel better - but in reality the animals in these "free range" situations receive pathetically limited extra space to live, and are not spared at all from the majority of abuses non-"free range" animals endure.

3) Clearly larger industries like the U.S. have a much larger scale of abuse going on, but it happens all over the western, capitalist world, it is a necessity in order to meet the demands of ever-growing populations. This has been documented and proven everywhere. No capitalist country is free from this.

Ireland, however, would have an easier time significantly scaling down or hopefully one day getting rid entirely of these atrocities, - as long as the people are willing to show the same passion and commitment as they did in this past referendum.

ThinkProgress

LoTR wrote: »

The "there is no alternative" argument is almost always used exclusively by capitalists, who insist it is the only political system under which humans can operate. That is absurd and does immense damage around the world, to people and animals alike. It is true that capitalism has pushed the world into a situation where it will be extremely difficult to change all that we are doing and scale back - but that does not mean that it's impossible. Is there any other truly horrible and despicable thing out there in the world where people will be fine with going "oh well it is as it is, so just leave it." ?

But where is your alternative? You've done a lot of finger pointing, but where is the viable alternative from you?

You want the world to be vegetarian / vegan? What does this world of yours look like...? Everybody eating rice & lentils?

Maybe the real problem is not our dietary choices, but the population explosion and the fact that we have people of many different economic variances. There is no "one-size fits all solution"...

Higher meat consumption has always been linked to greater affluence. Lower with greater poverty.

If the world population keeps expanding... you probably will get your wish for a vegetarian world. Because very soon, rice might be the only food we can all afford.

eviltwin

CK73 wrote: »

Is that why vegetarians use vitamin and mineral capsules? Because they get everything they need from non meat products? I stand corrected.

I've never used a multi vitamin, I've been vegetarian 23 years.

folamh

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If sentient animals have a right to live then what should we do with lions that hunt and kill gazelle?

Because as long as it's ok for one species to kill another for food then the argument only comes down to choice.

One might oppose killing animals on utilitarian grounds: that minimizing suffering as much as possible is the goal, even if we can't (and shouldn't) prevent animals from killing each other.

Shenshen

CK73 wrote: »

I mostly do use them and the incisors as I lost the molars on the one side of my mouth due to braces as a child and a dodgy dentist as an adult. Chewing is arduous work, while cutting through meat is not a problem so much.

I do think that we should be prepared to kill the animals we eat and I do think it should be done humanly, but we were not designed to be vegetarians and I say that as someone who apparently comes from an arable background, if 'Eat right for your blood type' is to be believed.

I don't think we should be wasteful with meat products. I find it disrespectful to throw meat away, as an animal died for nothing and I don't think we are meant to eat it in the vast quantities that some do today, but it is part of our diet and personally I don't think it should be denied or disapproved of, just ask for a more respectful consumption.

Fully agree with everything. We're not designed to be vegetarian nor carnivorous, we are omnivores.
We've got a choice, but our choices should be respected either way.

CK73

ThinkProgress wrote: »

But where is your alternative? You've done a lot of finger pointing, but where is the viable alternative from you?

You want the world to be vegetarian / vegan? What does this world of yours look like...? Everybody eating rice & lentils?

Maybe the real problem is not our dietary choices, but the population explosion and the fact that we have people of many different economic variances. There is no "one-size fits all solution"...

Higher meat consumption has always been linked to greater affluence. Lower with greater poverty.

If the world population keeps expanding... you probably will get your wish for a vegetarian world. Because very soon, rice might be the only food we can all afford.

I wonder what would happen to all the cows, pigs, sheep and chickens if eating meat and poultry was outlawed?

Neon_Lights

A full Irish with quorn sausages doesn't have the same impact pal

Shenshen

CK73 wrote: »

Is that why vegetarians use vitamin and mineral capsules? Because they get everything they need from non meat products? I stand corrected.

What vitamin and mineral capsules?
I've never had one in my life!

The only people I know who take them are some girls in the office who are constantly on diets - currently , the rage seems to be the chicken and salmon diet. No carbohydrates, and only raw vegetables. Plus about 5 different vitamin supplements as day.

Doesn't sound appealing to me, but to each their own.

Bongalongherb

The boiling of live lobsters is a bit unsavoury, why don't they just keep them alive and then when it's ready for supper just euthanize them. Did you ever hear the screams from the lobster when put into boiling water ? poor little crustaceans.

Shenshen

Neon_Lights wrote: »

A full Irish with quorn sausages doesn't have the same impact pal

Try the Linda McCartney ones, they're deadly

ThinkProgress

CK73 wrote: »

I wonder what would happen to all the cows, pigs, sheep and chickens if eating meat and poultry was outlawed?

They'd rise up and overthrow us... then they'd start eating us! lol

blatantrereg

Adamantium wrote: »

One historian reported that "Agriculture was the worst mistake in human history"

No it was a geographer. He makes some interesting sociological arguments to support the notion too. He thinks it led to social inequality and disease resulting from concentrated settlements etc. However he does not state that grains are an unhealthy food.

http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html

Bongalongherb

I have to agree, the Linda McCartney ones are actually very tasty, especially the sausages. I find the burgers to cause a lot of gas belching though, but the sausages are really nice dipping them into ketchup.

Sam Kade

pconn062 wrote: »

The majority of pork and chicken in this country is raised through industrial means. I certainly don't rely on youtube for my information, I've read most of the recent reports of farming methods specific to Ireland (and as I said, I live in rural Ireland and grew up working on farms).

I agree with you on McCartneys wife's sausages but I don't see what that has got to do with anything, seen as I don't eat or endorse them?!

Most of the chicken sold here is produced in the uk, pork maybe but the majority of beef is produced from grass. What type of farms did you work on? Mccartney's sausages was a dig at McCartney and his personal politics.

folamh

Better off getting nut cutlets than that synthetic Quorn/TVP crap!