So when will there be a referendum on criminalizing meat eating?

Plryty

blatantrereg wrote: »

Western vegetarians are not deficient in minerals.

I've already posted about how phytic acid really isn't as big a deal as people tend to think.

Western vegetarians are likely to have lower levels of DHA, carnosine and creatine. None of these are essential nutrients and affordable supplements are available for all three. Lower carnosine levels are offset by significantly lower AGE consumption.

It is important that vegans supplement with vitamin B12 (directly or via fortified food).

Oxalates, tannins, phytates & even excessive fiber intake as is common enough to see in vegetarian diets from the inclusion of beans, are all contributing factors towards the bioavailability of minerals. Antagonistic effects between the uptake of certain minerals can occur.

I never said vegetarians were deficient however, I did say they pose high risk groups. My previous posts about two pages back address this. In ireland, vitamin D & iodine can be added to that list too unless you consume childrens cereal.

LoTR

jungleman wrote: »

Wow. Okay this is hilarious.

First of all, let me assure you I am well aware of how capitalism works. I'm a geographer, baby.

Second of all, Ireland has lots of McDonalds. Which sell Irish beef. Guaranteed Irish beef. The food is pure muck, but that's besides the point. Yeah it's an American brand, but the franchises in Ireland only use Irish beef. No Irish cattle are abused or tortured. I think you know that very well.

Okay next of all, you talk about "animals being deprived of their natural settings". Irish cattle are reared in fields. Large open spaces.... If cattle aren't supposed to be there, then what is their "natural setting"? In an office? In outer space? You're talking nonsense, man!

I'm speaking about the subject as someone who has studied global foodscapes and who knows a bit about it. Your arguments are pretty weak and emotive, in fairness. You completely glossed over my last post and took from it little bits which you twisted into a mish-mash of drivel. You're passionate about the subject and that's grand, but you're not making a coherent argument.

I don't think a single person here is confused about my argument, no matter how much some may disagree with it. There is nothing whatsoever "confusing" about not buying meat.

The fact that the meat at McDonalds might come from Ireland and not America does not mean that you are not supporting a global brand of abuse, and the many other companies like it. Ireland is well and fully integrated in the web of capitalism, and subsequently in the web of abuse, and until you make changes to do that, the capitalist empire all bears responsibility for the cruelty it inflicts upon others.

Third of all, it is embarrassing I even have to show you otherwise, but here is right away an article about horrific pig abuse where Cork Circuit Criminal Court Judge Sean O’Donnabhain proclaims that the abuse documented here is NOT isolated but is "cruelty on an industrial scale." http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/one-of-irelands-biggest-pig-farmers-jailed-for-18-months-after-starving-pigs-cannibalised-each-other-30987421.html

Industrial scale.

And here is a petition from Irish animal-rights group ARAN about cow-abuse: https://www.facebook.com/155913217835225/photos/a.160903520669528.37234.155913217835225/795785027181371/?type=1&theater The petition is about not subjecting the cows to even worse treatment by exporting them overseas, something no one denies, but that does not mean that their fate in Ireland is "pleasant" by any stretch of the imagination. Read further.

And you're descriptions of cows raised for mass slaughter "are reared in fields in large open spaces" sounds like a 4-year-old being fooled by milk-carton advertising, not a "geographer," baby.

For all I know Ireland may indeed have some of the "nicer" conditions, in fact it is a small country with a small population so it would not be illogical. That means next to nothing, however, I can not believe anyone can take the argument "It ain't as bad as other places, so we're grand." If you have human trafficking cases, you don't go "well the sex-slaves are given more food that normal, and there ain't as many of them compared to Cambodia, so we're grand" - you go out and eradicate all of that.

LoTR

Plryty wrote: »

And the vegan clothes you buy come from companies which sell other non-vegan clothes products produced in factories which also manufactur non-vegan clothings, thus you supporting them is inadvertently aiding companies that support practices you are against i.e the use of animals. The vegan foods you buy, will come from plots of land that were developed for agriculture & displaced a number of species. The harvesting of this vegan food-produce will result in unavoidable collateral deaths of various native rodents & bird species. But of course, your baseline for what is depriving animals of their natural settings seems to only extend as far as farmed animals.

Oh yeah, and I'm also typing from a computer, so I'm polluting the planet and should just shut up about it. How'd you miss that one?

All the issues you describe, none of which you make because you are actually concerned but because you want an excuse not to change your lifestyle, stem directly from capitalism and the rising tidal wave of human population, which makes it hard to be entirely environmentally sound. None of us can ever live a "perfect" life - but if we can't do the absolute simplest of things, if we can't simply start refusing to pay for abuse, then there is no hope for anything else. If people started doing that, if people started choosing compassion over materialism, solutions will start opening up. But nothing will ever change with an attitude of "everything is bad so I'll just continue doing bad things."

kylith

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Just to clarify, are you calling for a complete ban on animal farming and for everyone to turn vegan?

AKA the mass slaughter of thousands upon thousands of animals, and hectares upon hectares of meadows being ploughed up and turned into monocultures.

Bongalongherb

Wibbs wrote: »

+1000

JM, bear in mind you're dealing with a hippie and as such any appeal to logic is falling on permanently deaf ears. They will never be satisfied. No matter what. Even if they gained their "utopia", they'd still have an illogical whine about something wrong in paradise. Seriously JM, it's best if you don't engage too deeply in the first place.

Well **** that, I'm a hippy as well, go figure, But my ears are open wide to the opinion.

Umm... a different kind of hippy it seems, not metal but classical, ah I see now, It's all starting to make sense now.

The bears are grand in the goldilocks zone.

ThinkProgress

LoTR wrote: »

Oh yeah, and I'm also typing from a computer, so I'm polluting the planet and should just shut up about it. How'd you miss that one?

All the issues you describe, none of which you make because you are actually concerned but because you want an excuse not to change your lifestyle, stem directly from capitalism and the rising tidal wave of human population, which makes it hard to be entirely environmentally sound. None of us can ever live a "perfect" life - but if we can't do the absolute simplest of things, if we can't simply start refusing to pay for abuse, then there is no hope for anything else. If people started doing that, if people started choosing compassion over materialism, solutions will start opening up. But nothing will ever change with an attitude of "everything is bad so I'll just continue doing bad things."

Where are all your original ideas to save the world...?

All I see is, "I'm a vegetarian, I'm doing my part, so catch up the rest of you knuckle-dragging neanderthals!"

If you had anything original to say, we would have read it by now.

Capitalism is society's answer to overpopulation of people. Do you have a better solution. I understand you're an idealist - I can be one myself in some regards... so I don't resent you for that.

But you just seem to enjoy having a whinge. You don't have the answers any more than any of us! lol

jungleman

LoTR wrote: »

I don't think a single person here is confused about my argument, no matter how much some may disagree with it. There is nothing whatsoever "confusing" about not buying meat.

The fact that the meat at McDonalds might come from Ireland and not America does not mean that you are not supporting a global brand of abuse, and the many other companies like it. Ireland is well and fully integrated in the web of capitalism, and subsequently in the web of abuse, and until you make changes to do that, the capitalist empire all bears responsibility for the cruelty it inflicts upon others.

Third of all, it is embarrassing I even have to show you otherwise, but here is right away an article about horrific pig abuse where Cork Circuit Criminal Court Judge Sean O’Donnabhain proclaims that the abuse documented here is NOT isolated but is "cruelty on an industrial scale." http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/one-of-irelands-biggest-pig-farmers-jailed-for-18-months-after-starving-pigs-cannibalised-each-other-30987421.html

Industrial scale.

And here is a petition from Irish animal-rights group ARAN about cow-abuse: https://www.facebook.com/155913217835225/photos/a.160903520669528.37234.155913217835225/795785027181371/?type=1&theater The petition is about not subjecting the cows to even worse treatment by exporting them overseas, something no one denies, but that does not mean that their fate in Ireland is "pleasant" by any stretch of the imagination. Read further.

And you're descriptions of cows raised for mass slaughter "are reared in fields in large open spaces" sounds like a 4-year-old being fooled by milk-carton advertising, not a "geographer," baby.

For all I know Ireland may indeed have some of the "nicer" conditions, in fact it is a small country with a small population so it would not be illogical. That means next to nothing, however, I can not believe anyone can take the argument "It ain't as bad as other places, so we're grand." If you have human trafficking cases, you don't go "well the sex-slaves are given more food that normal, and there ain't as many of them compared to Cambodia, so we're grand" - you go out and eradicate all of that.

Alright, this is my last post on the matter. Your response is just too tempting to ignore.

A large open space.... How else do you want me to describe a field? Seriously.

I'm not reading any of your links.

You keep going on about capitalism. Yeah the food industry is dependent on capitalism. BUT SO IS EVERYTHING ELSE! I can take a dump and put a capitalist spin on it! It doesn't mean anything! You can't just say that Ireland is a capitalist country, therefore it is tangled up in bad food practices. The fact of the matter is that McDonalds would not be allowed to operate in Ireland unless they complied with EU laws and regulations regarding the sourcing of their meat. But that doesn't tie in with your angle so you take it out of context and nonchalantly throw "capitalism" in there.

You have just compared sex slaves to meat consumption. C'mon, man. I could pick that apart all night but it's time for my beauty sleep so I'll let that one slide.

You want to criminalize meat eating, and "eradicate" it. That is just absurd. See, this is a major flaw in your argument. It's tunnel visioned, and you are completely unwilling to listen to rational arguments that would oppose your pre-existing view. Meat eating and meat production was around long before capitalism, you know.

LoTR

jungleman wrote: »

I'm not reading any of your links.

Well ladies and gentlemen...what else can I possibly do but rest my case.

You keep going on about capitalism. Yeah the food industry is dependent on capitalism. BUT SO IS EVERYTHING ELSE! I can take a dump and put a capitalist spin on it! It doesn't mean anything! You can't just say that Ireland is a capitalist country, therefore it is tangled up in bad food practices. The fact of the matter is that McDonalds would not be allowed to operate in Ireland unless they complied with EU laws and regulations regarding the sourcing of their meat. But that doesn't tie in with your angle so you take it out of context and nonchalantly throw "capitalism" in there.

I never ever said that it doesn't comply with EU laws and regulations. I told you that EU laws and regulations are in firm alignment with U.S. and global capitalist practices, as in they are focused on profit and solely on profit, with minimal "protections" for the animals that not a single animal rights group can praise as actually be anywhere close to "good."

You have just compared sex slaves to meat consumption. C'mon, man. I could pick that apart all night but it's time for my beauty sleep so I'll let that one slide.

Nope, I didn't. I asked how do you approach other issues. I love how you are waiting for that golden gem "oh please please please when is going to mention human abuse cases just so I can ask him if he thinks animals are more important than humans? please" Caring about one does not mean you should not care about the other.

You want to criminalize meat eating, and "eradicate" it. That is just absurd. See, this is a major flaw in your argument. It's tunnel visioned, and you are completely unwilling to listen to rational arguments that would oppose your pre-existing view. Meat eating and meat production was around long before capitalism, you know.

If we can tie in capitalism with wake of the Industrial revolutions...not really. Obviously animals were killed in the past, I repeatedly said that was a different world, and I'm not criticizing that world. But the kind of mass-scale production where billions of animals are abused in order to satisfy an ever-growing human population absolutely is a product of capitalism, it's tied hand-in-hand. That is not "tunnel vision," that is historical fact, and I have no idea what you can point to me otherwise.

ThinkProgress

LoTR wrote: »

Well ladies and gentlemen...what else can I possibly do but rest my case.

If we can tie in capitalism with wake of the Industrial revolutions...not really. Obviously animals were killed in the past, I repeatedly said that was a different world, and I'm not criticizing that world. But the kind of mass-scale production where billions of animals are abused in order to satisfy an ever-growing human population absolutely is a product of capitalism, it's tied hand-in-hand. That is not "tunnel vision," that is historical fact, and I have no idea what you can point to me otherwise.

Why was it a different world? Our needs haven't really changed much over the centuries...

Essentially we are all just organisms on this planet. All living things. Plants included.

You are passing moral judgement on consuming animals. So the plants are pointless, useless entities only fit for consumption? Venus flytrap - please tell me that damn cool plant is not on your shopping list?

It eats things and it's a plant...!? But it's ok to eat mr flytrap, right? B'cause your totally sure it feels nothing. Right?

We may have to eat people one day, if the world becomes too crowded. (hoping I'm long gone before that starts) haha

bodice ripper

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piyZBoHaHDI

.

CK73

I think it is best with the motto 'all good things in moderation'. I worry about fruit and veg, due to the way they are produced these days. All the pesticides and how contaminated they are when they get to my table. There is a very limited choice of organic and of course it is also dearer. A lot of people go on about it not tasting better, therefore a waste of extra cash, but it's not just about flavour, it's about putting something you can trust in your mouth.

Then you have these ready meals, be them with meat or not. All the crap and preservatives that is added to secure a longer shelf life. We don't get normal food any more, we get meat pumped with water or solutions to add weight, crops sprayed with nasty stuff to get them to grow bigger and uniform in size and e numbers to make things look appetising. Everything is meddled with.

Then we wonder why we feel lethargic, bloatered and unable to function properly!

I'd much rather see food brought back to it's natural state, than anything taken away. I would much rather people consumed food with more respect for the origin of the food and respect for what they are putting into their body, but that is never going to happen, as we have evolved to this mess and likely it will just continue in the same way, be it a slightly different direction.

osarusan

Shenshen wrote: »

The only thing we should be giving people is choices. And as much information as they need in order to make an informed choice.

Agreed.

And anybody who takes the time to make themselves informed about diet and the food they eat will have no problems staying healthy, whether they choose to avoid some foods or not.

silverfeather

Humans are omnivores. I accept this scientific fact. We can thrive on many different types of diets. Intensive farming and it's affects in efforts to feed us all meat have to be taken into consideration at some time though.

As for ethics about animals. I am a veggie my personal position is clear. I do not eat meat. I do cook or prepare meat for family or friends sometimes if I feel it is going to be eaten anyway. Some people don't agree with that choice. But I only will if it would be eaten anyway.

The ethics for causing animals distress and pain are clear to me. Non-chordates I realize are different. Oysters for example have no central nervous system and feel no pain. Other non- chordates are similar. I still choose personally not to eat them.

Confinement and slaughter for many species that currently endure them both disturb me.

I have always said on my vegetarianism I honor people's choices. But I would be lying if I said I didn't want to see this actually happen. I have thought about veganism and even tried it. (it's hard!). It's difficult for me to see animals can be raised humanely in confinement for slaughter. Ireland is quite good in some respects. But recently there has been fur farming here in terrible conditions and animal abuse that has nothing to do with farming.

Sam Kade

LoTR wrote: »

Well ladies and gentlemen...what else can I possibly do but rest my case.

QUOTE]You rest your case :rolleyes: your links are useless one about one pig farmer in Ireland and the other a facebook page :rolleyes: It seems to me that you'd want to rest more than your case

force eleven

All the veggies and particularly vegans that I know have pale wan complexions and look tired. You need protein people, meat protein.

Sam Kade

pconn062 wrote: »

How do you think the majority of chicken is raised in the UK? Free-range? I worked on several different farms (during my teenage years), one of which was predominantly a beef cattle farm and the animals were mostly treated well, raised on pastures. Most of the beef produced in Ireland is still raised outdoors and grass fed, hence why I didn't mention beef in my original point.

We were talking about Ireland not the UK You worked on several farms :rolleyes: but you refer to US words to describe them yeah right.

silverfeather

force eleven wrote: »

All the veggies and particularly vegans that I know have pale wan complexions and look tired. You need protein people, meat protein.

BJ's ! Yeah I went there!

ThinkProgress

Veg & vegan advocates are very hypocritical and often quite delusional in their over the top idealism.

There is lots of evidence that show omnivorise diets are better for health. One study actually showed that some strict veg & vegans were 30% more likely to suffer broken bones, due to insufficient calcium.

Also vitamins d, b12, iron and fatty acids are often significantly lower in these people - requiring artificial supplements to stay healthy. (Often these problems don't surface for several years - which makes people believe their diet is perfectly healthy)

Veg & vegans are also statistically far more likely to suffer depression, diet being one of the key factors in mental health.

Also, they have no moral dilemma throwing veg into blenders, even though science has shown that plant matter are very much alive in many respects: including responding to light, touch and gravity. (We are discovering new ways they interact with their environments all the time)

Also, the cultivation of fruit and vegetables for human consumption... Organic and non organic... Causes huge destruction to our environment. Pollution, devastation of animal habitats, killing of millions animals and insects and just as many beneficial predators as pests!

I'll keep eating animals thank you. And you guys can keep your superiority complex, flawed arguments and inferior health!

Dan_Solo

mister gullible wrote: »

I do some hunting myself but can still understand how someone might be averse to meat eating, especially from factory farmed sources such as most pork and chicken. What is hard to understand is why someone's comments on meat eating would inspire anyone else to go out and start shooting pigeons during the nesting season (when it's illegal in any case). Or maybe you're just taunting the OP.

By he same token you should ask why the OP's personal dietary choice should mean the rest of us are forced to follow suit.

GerardKeating

LoTR wrote: »

I can only guess the snark in the above comments is some kind of belief I am against your referendums, I am not - but since the Irish have shown they can turn up in large numbers to vote on social issues, I wonder if this issue of criminalizing the brutality, depravity, torture, and the horrific killings of other sentient beings will also be put up for a vote.

Plants are sentient too

Plryty

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Where are all your original ideas to save the world...?

All I see is, "I'm a vegetarian, I'm doing my part, so catch up the rest of you knuckle-dragging neanderthals!"

If you had anything original to say, we would have read it by now.

Capitalism is society's answer to overpopulation of people. Do you have a better solution. I understand you're an idealist - I can be one myself in some regards... so I don't resent you for that.

But you just seem to enjoy having a whinge. You don't have the answers any more than any of us! lol

Reminds me of that parody The Onion did on ted-talks, where it's jeering the pretentious attitudes the speakers have by offering ideas but without any implementation of the idea.

"Step one: The idea
Step two: The creation

...We've already accomplished step one, we're halfway there"

Maximus Alexander

It's decided. I'm having steak for dinner.

alias no.9

C.K Dexter Haven wrote: »

Are vegetarians classed as an animal or a vegetable?

Nuts may perhaps be appropriate for some?

blatantrereg

I'm very healthy and have been vegetarian for years. You certainly should read up on vegetarian nutrition though if going vegetarian or even experimenting with it.

Bored of thread now, but I came back onto it to post this very enjoyable video of cows:

https://www.facebook.com/AnimalsAustralia/videos/vb.32799215298/10153852684000299/?type=2&theater

J Mysterio

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Veg & vegan advocates are very hypocritical and often quite delusional in their over the top idealism.

There is lots of evidence that show omnivorise diets are better for health. One study actually showed that some strict veg & vegans were 30% more likely to suffer broken bones, due to insufficient calcium.

Also vitamins d, b12, iron and fatty acids are often significantly lower in these people - requiring artificial supplements to stay healthy. (Often these problems don't surface for several years - which makes people believe their diet is perfectly healthy)

Veg & vegans are also statistically far more likely to suffer depression, diet being one of the key factors in mental health.

Also, they have no moral dilemma throwing veg into blenders, even though science has shown that plant matter are very much alive in many respects: including responding to light, touch and gravity. (We are discovering new ways they interact with their environments all the time)

Also, the cultivation of fruit and vegetables for human consumption... Organic and non organic... Causes huge destruction to our environment. Pollution, devastation of animal habitats, killing of millions animals and insects and just as many beneficial predators as pests!

I'll keep eating animals thank you. And you guys can keep your superiority complex, flawed arguments and inferior health!

:pac: brilliant!

J Mysterio

Should vegetarians eat eggs though?

Duggy747

So you ban meat-eating, then what do you do about the textile industry / items and products that use other parts of an animal body like hide and bones?

Dan_Solo

blatantrereg wrote: »

I'm very healthy and have been vegetarian for years.

I'm very healthy and I've never been a vegetarian.
The fact is, being healthy has nothing to do with eating meat. If I eat nothing but chips and didn't exercise I'd be fat and a cardiac waiting to happen just as much as if I ate burgers.

blatantrereg

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I'm very healthy and I've never been a vegetarian.
The fact is, being healthy has nothing to do with eating meat. If I eat nothing but chips and didn't exercise I'd be fat and a cardiac waiting to happen just as much as if I ate burgers.

it was a response to suggestions that vegetarianism is intrinsically unhealthy.
when a thread is this long it just starts going around in circles.

Dan_Solo

silverfeather wrote: »

The ethics for causing animals distress and pain are clear to me. Non-chordates I realize are different. Oysters for example have no central nervous system and feel no pain. Other non- chordates are similar. I still choose personally not to eat them.

Non-chordates don't feel pain? Don't need to say anything really here except "wrong".