So when will there be a referendum on criminalizing meat eating?

kylith

So, say you got your wish and eating animal products was made illegal tomorrow. What would you suggest we do with all the animals?

awec

LoTR wrote: »

There is more than enough information, there is more then enough evidence, there is more than enough reasons to choose change, and there are practically no excuses left - other than if you don't feel society pressuring you to do the right thing, it is easier for you to ignore it or dismiss it.

We don't need an excuse. Meat is great.

If you don't want to eat it then nobody cares. But I would argue that pontificating on here in your stereotypical tree hugging sanctimonious tone will not advance your cause at all.

Sam Kade

kylith wrote: »

So, say you got your wish and eating animal products was made illegal tomorrow. What would you suggest we do with all the animals?

Set them free they will say. Imagine the consequences of that. The cattle will roam eat all our food source (veggies) then they will breed in the wild die of disease and old age and tb will be rampant once again in humans. Other than that just kill them off but then they will just be contradicting themselves. In reality it would be easier get rid of vegans

LoTR

kylith wrote: »

So, say you got your wish and eating animal products was made illegal tomorrow. What would you suggest we do with all the animals?

I did not say tomorrow. I said by referendum. Which means when the majority of people willfully make the change in their lives, abandon these practices, and then come together to vote for a new law. When people wake up, when the corporations and slaughterhouses receive significantly less profit and demand, these animals will stop being bred in such huge numbers.

More:

It’s fairly straightforward: if we stop eating them, we stop breeding them. The most likely scenario for a vegan world is not one in which everyone stops eating animals overnight, but one in which demand for animal products gradually continues to decline, and fewer and fewer animals are bred as a result. At some point along the way, as more people become persuaded of the immorality of exploiting animals, we will hope to see the needless killing of animals for food recognized not only as a moral wrong, but as a legal wrong as well.

http://freefromharm.org/eating-animals-addressing-our-most-common-justifications/#sthash.KeokePzq.dpuf

awec

LoTR wrote: »

I did not say tomorrow. I said by referendum. Which means when the majority of people willfully make the change in their lives, abandon these practices, and then come together to vote for a new law. When people wake up, when the corporations and slaughterhouses receive significantly less profit and demand, these animals will stop being bred in such huge numbers.

More:

http://freefromharm.org/eating-animals-addressing-our-most-common-justifications/#sthash.KeokePzq.dpuf

Doesn't address the issue of the current farm animals.

If I own 100 beef cows on my land and I can no longer sell them for meat what do I do with them? Open the gate and just let them dander out?

folamh

Brancott wrote: »

They are also one of the more stupid creatures I've ever experienced, the only reason they exist is to give us glorious quarter pounders

From an animal's perspective, humans might look incredibly stupid.

Mellifera

LoTR wrote: »

Vegetarians are people who do not pay for the lifelong brutalization, torture, denial of every single last natural experience for an animal... And other practices from the stone age that any rational person today would find abhorrent. We have since advanced, at least a tiny bit I should hope. Yet comments like yours smash that hope.

And yet a lot of vegetarians use leather products, glue, etc...the by-products of the 'lifelong brutalization, torture, denial of every single last natural experience for an animal'. I doubt many check the origins of these products.

kylith

LoTR wrote: »

I did not say tomorrow. I said by referendum. Which means when the majority of people willfully make the change in their lives, abandon these practices, and then come together to vote for a new law. When people wake up, when the corporations and slaughterhouses receive significantly less profit and demand, these animals will stop being bred in such huge numbers.

Except that there can't be a referendum because eating meat, or not eating meat, is not in the constitution. You want a referendum on criminalising meat eating, which means that you want meat eating to be criminalised. This has nothing to do with people willingly making the decision to stop eating meat because if it's a willing choice then there would be no need to criminalise it.

It’s fairly straightforward: if we stop eating them, we stop breeding them. The most likely scenario for a vegan world is not one in which everyone stops eating animals overnight, but one in which demand for animal products gradually continues to decline, and fewer and fewer animals are bred as a result. At some point along the way, as more people become persuaded of the immorality of exploiting animals, we will hope to see the needless killing of animals for food recognized not only as a moral wrong, but as a legal wrong as well.

http://freefromharm.org/eating-animals-addressing-our-most-common-justifications/#sthash.KeokePzq.dpuf

What kind of timescale do you see this occurring in? A cow, born today, can live for 20 years or more. Sheep for a decade. Chickens for about 8-10 years. Horses (eaten in many countries) can live to be 30. What is to be done with the animals still alive if there was no demand for the meat?

Wouldn't you feel bad about the fact that so many species (that is, of domesticated animals; a domestic sheep is so far removed from its wild brethren as to be practically a different animal) would be made extinct?

Personally I think that if there is to be any reduction in the amount of animals reared for meat it will be an increase in the production of lab-grown meat, not because people turn to vegetables.

I have family in the beef cattle business, and I've been in an abattoir. I have no ethical or moral problems eating meat having seen first hand how it's produced.

kylith

ThinkProgress wrote: »

What we actually get from cows: http://api.ning.com/files/m1FL*rlKeI3mxBSXvUIu4ohLCxN6GtsXmspaH4og9oVN-iXI44X*54TAJiFaoT1HZyYIxV76cdjcgJ--i-swb69dcdPZ8M4f/NoSuchThingAsAVegan.jpg

I'd like to take a moment to lol at the fact that fake egg is made with cow blood. LOL.

Brancott

folamh wrote: »

From an animal's perspective, humans might look incredibly stupid.

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1458480/thumbs/o-TROY-MCCLURE-570.jpg?1

Brancott

Where does this nonsense stop ?.
What about plants that show reactions akin to a nervous system ?.
The endgame for crap like this could be that in 20 years time it will be illegal to cut the grass.

LLewellen Farquarson

Brancott wrote: »

Where does this nonsense stop ?.
What about plants that show reactions akin to a nervous system ?.
The endgame for crap like this could be that in 20 years time it will be illegal to cut the grass.

I really wish it was illegal to cut the grass.

Then I'd get a few hours each Saturday in the summer back to relax, rather than being pestered to do something that would then be illegal.

ThinkProgress

LoTR wrote: »

It's interesting that you can dismiss pretty much every single last moral argument in the world with that. As long as you feel not enough people are calling you out, you will continue convincing yourself that you are in the right.

But since you have asked for more information, I hope people will read and watch some of these below. There is more than enough evidence to present, from various sources.

Sustainable statistics on the damage modern day factory farming causes to the environment, to public health, to workers, and to animal welfare: http://www.sustainabletable.org/869/impacts-of-industrial-agriculture

Most important: Undercover investigations of the standard practices at factory farms across America and other countries in the western world: http://www.mercyforanimals.org/investigations

U.N. Environment Programme (Unep) study analyzing 'how farming practices are destroying the natural world.' http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/feb/18/halve-meat-consumption-scientists

Breakdown of the various types of abuses factory farmed animals suffer: https://www.aspca.org/fight-cruelty/farm-animal-cruelty/what-factory-farm

Nutrition guide for people wanting to become vegetarian or vegan, explaining as it has been shows by millions of people worldwide why it is more than possible, inexpensive and convenient to live without meat: http://www.chooseveg.com/foodplate

There is more than enough information, there is more then enough evidence, there is more than enough reasons to choose change, and there are practically no excuses left - other than if you don't feel society pressuring you to do the right thing, it is easier for you to ignore it or dismiss it.

I haven't dismissed "every single last moral argument"... but I do think you're coming at this from a far too impassioned and idealist perspective to actually see the practical implications of what you are suggesting!

You need to take a step back, cool it with all the preachy finger pointing, pontificating etc and actually absorb some of the valid points that people have tried to make to you.

You love to highlight problems, but you are very weak at addressing practical solutions.

You have completely side-stepped good worthwhile points, in favor of more links to evidence of problems. You even try to educate people on things that many are already well informed on.

NEWSFLASH: We're not naive children, we know problems exist.

silverfeather

ThinkProgress wrote: »

NEWSFLASH: We're not naive children,

Speak for yourself.:o

osarusan

Crooked Jack wrote: »

When will we have a referendum on the brutality, depravity, torture, and the horrific killings of other living things such as crops, fruit and vegetables?

Salads are only for murderers,
coleslaw's a fascist regime
Don't think that they don't have feelings,
just cause a radish can't scream.

kylith

osarusan wrote: »

Salads are only for murderers,
coleslaw's a fascist regime
Don't think that they don't have feelings,
just cause a radish can't scream.

Vegetarians are cruel, unfeeling people.
Everyone knows a carrot screams when grated.
Potatoes, the earth's little lobsters, boiled in their skins...

I can't find the poem online, but I've always liked it.

It's also true. The smell of cut grass is the smell of grass screaming. Onions making you cry - an onion desperately trying to protect itself. Vegetables don't want to be eaten. To eat a carrot is to kill a carrot as surely as to eat beef is to kill a cow.

traprunner

I can't believe that After Hours took this thread seriously! :eek:

humanji

traprunner wrote: »

I can't believe that After Hours took this thread seriously! :eek:

We once had a thread in After Hours by a guy who genuinely thought he was the second coming of Jesus, so it's hard to know what to believe any more.

traprunner

humanji wrote: »

We once had a thread in After Hours by a guy who genuinely thought he was the second coming of Jesus, so it's hard to know what to believe any more.

Thanks for the tip! I think I'll be looking that one up for the craic.

topper75

Whisky Mac wrote: »

What in the constitution needs amending here? Which section?!

You didn't do much research around the last referendum in your rush to the polling booth I reckon; amendments can be insertions.

humanji

traprunner wrote: »

Thanks for the tip! I think I'll be looking that one up for the craic.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056421351
Post #97 is where the magic happens.

DamagedTrax

LoTR wrote: »

My dear Irish friends,

Seeing as you like referendums so much, and like "setting things right," I am just wondering when you will have a Yes/No referendum on whether brutality, depravity, torture, and the horrific killings of other sentient beings is something the Irish people will continue to support and strongly engage with, or stand up against?

Will the Irish be the first people in the world to criminalize the brutality, depravity, torture, and the horrific killings of other sentient beings (and purchasing such things)....or does the Irish people's definition of mercy not extend to other sentient beings?

When will this referendum be held? And what would you vote for? Will people one day gather with flags in Dublin Castle to celebrate the fall of brutality, depravity, torture, and the horrific killings of other sentient beings? Will one day the Irish people set an example for the world? Or will nothing ever convince you to open up your heart to those that cannot speak for themselves?

"Earthlings" with Joaquin Phoenix is a fantastic documentary about this issue.

EDIT: Since I can post things now, this video says more than I can possibly ever explain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhBWDzkqEPY Please watch.

as a meat eater i would vote if somehow this became a referendum issue. i would sleep a lot better at night knowing my meat was raised in comfort and treated humanely at the last.

unfortunately we live in a country where the leaders are mates with puppy farmers, so im not sure proper regulation of the livestock industry is high on their agenda. if cute puppies dont change their ideas, walking juicy steaks certainly wont... also, imaginary deity forbid the proper treatment of animals eats into profit :eek:

Magico Gonzalez

humanji wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056421351
Post #97 is where the magic happens.

You just don't get that kind of crazy anymore. We've gone all normal.

LoTR

To all the, what I am certain are "genuine" queries about whether plants and animals are the same thing: plants do not form emotional families, they have no thoughts, they make no plans, they are not sentient beings. You know this very well.

Animals, especially farmed animals, share these characteristics - including cows, pigs, chickens and turkeys. While Ireland is not really huge on pets, in America the majority of meat eaters have a dog or a cat - but those animals have the right to life just as much as farmed animals. It is very hypocritical of people to feel disturbed at other cultures eating cats and dogs or killing dolphins while at the same time they support the western meat eating industry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaqR9V4XkXA

But in a related issue, the abuse of the planet, which stems directly from people holding attitudes such as the ones displayed in this thread, contributes to the continued impoverishment and harm to millions of people around the world. This attitude harms the planet, the animals, and the people. Humanity generally thinks it is always in a state of "progress," but materialism and the want for flesh is actually setting us backward here.

Samaris

Ah look, LotR, we'll take you seriously when you take arguments against your post seriously. At the moment you're just repeating yourself ad nauseum.

LoTR

Samaris wrote: »

Ah look, LotR, we'll take you seriously when you take arguments against your post seriously. At the moment you're just repeating yourself ad nauseum.

I have replied to every single last argument that warrants a serious response, and I have posted plenty of academic links and further research done on pretty much every point made. Every last one. The popular "bbq is tasty" is not an argument.

jungleman

LoTR wrote: »

I have replied to every single last argument that warrants a serious response, and I have posted plenty of academic links and further research done on pretty much every point made. Every last one. The popular "bbq is tasty" is not an argument.

Do you know what an academic paper is? Because it ain't a facebook page, a link to the Indo, or a link to the Guardian.

Magico Gonzalez

LoTR wrote: »

I have replied to every single last argument that warrants a serious response, and I have posted plenty of academic links and further research done on pretty much every point made. Every last one. The popular "bbq is tasty" is not an argument.

It's simple.

As a country we do not place the same value on animal life as human life.

I'm ok with that to be frank, as are the vast majority of Irish citizens. When that changes, come back to us.

I do think we should afford animals a better quality existence before we kill and eat them, in stark terms they should be comfortable before hitting my plate.

Humans are a species, dogs and cats (amongst others) are other distinct species, again I'm comfortable with elevating them above other animals on an emotional level due to the special relationship that we as humans have decided to cultivate with them.

Nature is cruel, we could spend hours listing the horrendous brutal nature of intra species and extra species relationships. We, as humans, prioritise our own comfort and survival.

I'm ok with that, I'm fine with controlling animal populations responsibly, happy to eat animals. No point pulling the punches, once we're all honest about it I can't see the problem I do think peope should be very aware of where the food comes from. I can't abide people who wince at the sight of raw meat, or meat on the bone or carcasses being slaughtered.

If you are queasy about the reality of meat and it's journey to your plate, you shouldn't eat it. DOn't buy cheap meat produced cruelly.

kylith

LoTR wrote: »

I have replied to every single last argument that warrants a serious response, and I have posted plenty of academic links and further research done on pretty much every point made. Every last one. The popular "bbq is tasty" is not an argument.

We enjoy eating meat
We are designed to eat meat
Were it not for eating meat we would not have evolved to where we are now
Going vegan would involve killing millions of animals
Going vegan requires taking supplements which omnivores get from their food
Our food animals die much, much less stressful deaths, and have much, much better lives than wild animals

darkpagandeath

If only producing fruit veg did not kill off more weight in insects than Meat consumed...