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Lack of new routes at Cork airport

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I don't see how opening the old terminal would help when the new terminal isn't even at half capacity. All you'd be doing is increasing the overheads for no reason.

    The old terminal isn't even very attractive and had rather basic facilities.

    You'd just give passengers a poor experience and increase costs for no reason.

    There's no T1 or T2 there's just one operational terminal.

    The debt is a big issue but the weak marketing to date has been a bigger one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    How exactly would it reduce costs by doubling overheads?

    Lack of terminal capacity is certainly not an issue at Cork!

    Opening more terminal space in a second building would just cause two issues : huge increase in operating costs and a huge problem for retail sales.

    As it stands the airport could offer cheaper slots anyway. It's not short of stands, slots, check in desks etc etc

    The new terminal is pretty empty for large chunks of the day anyway!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    It would incrementally increase overheads, while bringing in substantially more revenue.

    It used be that every flight I took originated in Cork, now it's one in 5.

    How would it bring in more revenue?

    There's already loads of spare capacity in the existing terminal. The airport can't reduce fees due to a big debt burden and it's not offering attractive enough marketing deals.

    Opening a second terminal would if anything increase fees and overheads so, your ticket price would just go up.

    Why would another substandard terminal building attract new airlines if the fees can't be reduced and there were no incentives?

    I think to date there's been very passive marketing - that's improving

    The major issue was the collapse of the economy. A large % of holiday flights and regular flights to Eastern Europe disappeared with the recession and change in the economy. Bear in mind that while Cork City is recovering fast, a lot of the areas Cork Airport serves are still pretty recession hit relative to Dublin& Leinster.

    A lot of people may also have disposed of holiday homes in Spain and elsewhere due to the financial crisis or, aren't using them frequently opting to let them instead.

    People aren't flying as much.

    You've also had a slide in tourism numbers for a while due to the Eurozone, UK and global recessions. That's only recovering now and lasted years. The cheaper Euro may drive UK visits up a lot but may hit outbound traffic to the UK although it'll have no impact on traffic to other EZ countries as the costs remain stable.

    The other big issue is massively improved road to Dublin.

    Also Ryanair ran airlines off routes by going below cost and the when they had no competition, closing the route because they'd put way too much capacity on. I'm pretty sure that experience has made low cost carriers wary of Cork and other regional Irish airports.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Passenger numbers at Dublin Airport increased by 8% last year to 21.7 million

    http://daa.ie/gns/media-centre/press-releases/15-01-12/Dublin_Airport_Passenger_Numbers_Up_8_To_21_7M.aspx

    To put that in perspective traffic at Dublin grew by almost as much as total annual traffic at Cork Airport.

    As I said, there's been a strong recovery in Dublin with a localised recovery in Cork City.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 709 ✭✭✭lostinsuperfunk


    Spacetime is right.
    The operating terminal has spare capacity for at least 1,000,000 passengers per annum. It has plenty of room to expand and bring in more revenue. Why open another terminal incurring fit-out costs and increasing overall operating costs?
    This is the same DAA thinking that got the airport into its current debt-ridden state.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭beer enigma


    kub wrote: »
    Andip, you mentioned that traffic should increase in Cork in 2016, is that because it is an election year or is that just a coincidence?

    There's a slight restructure of the debt repayment due in 2016 which will ease the burden on Cork - that may well have been planned for an election year, but either way it will allow Cork to offer better incentives by way of landing fees etc & they are already in talks with another carrier for 2016 as a result.

    The other positive is that all of the offices in the old building should have been migrated to the new terminal by the end of 2015 so in effect the costs associated with keeping the old building 'live' can be thrown into the development pot ( and I won't need to keep an umbrella in my office).

    At the moment, there are too many people in the old terminal to allow it to be knocked, so again once migrated, that's another option.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    As I said, there's been a strong recovery in Dublin with a localised recovery in Cork City.
    .
    .
    A lot of people may also have disposed of holiday homes in Spain and elsewhere due to the financial crisis or, aren't using them frequently opting to let them instead.

    People aren't flying as much.

    That's not empirically supported.

    1. The number of Corkonians flying has not decreased significantly at all; but the number flying from Cork Airport has by 500,000
    http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/ryanair-say-movement-is-needed-to-lower-cork-airport-charges/
    Mr Jacobs conceded that Cork Airport had been unable to offer the same type of deals as other airports, such as Shannon, because it had been saddled with debts of more than €120m.

    He also revealed that 500,000 Corkonians flew with Ryanair in 2014 from other airports while 812,000 flew with the airline from Cork.
    He said: “We’ve got growth in the number of Corkonians flying with us out of Shannon, out of Dublin, but not everyone in Cork wants to do that. It’s not really in our hands. We’d like to have more flights back here. We need to get the charges down. There needs to be a big movement (in prices) for Cork to be competitive.”

    2. Factor in another 500,000 people for South Munster:
    http://www.independent.ie/business/more-than-a-million-fliers-bypass-120m-cork-airport-30975357.html
    It is now estimated that more than one million passenger journeys by Munster-based travellers bypass Cork Airport in favour of Dublin, Shannon and even Kerry.
    Ryanair told the Irish Independent that they handled 500,000 Cork-based passengers from other Irish airports last year including Dublin, Shannon and Kerry.
    A further 500,000 south Munster-based passengers are also opting for Dublin and Shannon services with Aer Lingus and other carriers due to greater route choices including transatlantic services.

    That gives a total of 1million bypassing Cork Airport.

    Just to go over the actual collapse of Cork Airport again:
    Peak figures from Cork were 3.2 million
    Recent figures were slipping under 2.1 million
    Difference: 1.1 million

    3. Now compare the gains at Shannon, Knock, Kerry and Dublin

    Traffic losses at Cork have been offset by commensurate gains elsewhere.
    The latest Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) figures show that while Dublin (+6.5pc) and Shannon (+18.7pc) both registered significant increases in passenger numbers in 2014, Cork suffered further losses (-3.8pc).
    After 5 years of decline, Shannon airport saw a 17% increase in passengers in 2014. The airport gained over 200,000 passengers
    .
    .
    The good news for Shannon comes in contrast to the massive downturn in passengers for Cork airport. Cork airport has lost 36% of its passengers, over a million in total. Over the same period, it has lost carriers including Malev, EasyJet, Wizz, ThomsonFly, CentralWings, BMIBaby, Air Wales, British European and Loganair. The painful part is that over 500,000 Munster flyers have chosen to use other airports, despite Cork airport spending €120 million on a new terminal.
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoi...on-284203.html
    a peak of 3.25m passengers in 2008, Cork airport looks set to drop to 2.1m this year. Shannon has seen a slight increase, from 1.3m passengers in 2012 to 1.4m last year. Dublin Airport handled 20.17m passengers in 2013 — up 6% on 2012. Cork has seen its passenger numbers slump by almost 5% since the start of the year alone, with July figures down almost 6%. That compares to a 15% increase in passenger figures at Shannon for the first six months of 2014.

    However, if one delves behind the headline numbers, there are a number of factors which have lead to the decline at Cork.

    The biggest impact between 2008 and now has been the loss of the Cork-Dublin route which, at its peak, accounted for half a million passengers per year.

    In the last 12-18 months, it has been the loss of Wizz Air, which used Cork as its only Irish hub to a number of Eastern European locations and which accounted for 11% of the market. When Ryanair came in for a piece of its action, Wizz Air departed. With Wizz Air gone, Ryanair then moved those flights to Shannon. That is estimated to have cost Cork Airport 70,000 passengers this year so far, and will reach 150,000 by year end.

    You are correct about the improved road to Dublin being a factor (hence when I think the inertia surrounding the Limerick-Cork abomination 'suits' the government at the moment, as that will only kill Cork faster).

    The loss of the WizzAir flights has been a serious blow.
    I'm happy to pay over the odds to fly to the Baltic from Cork, as are many passengers I'd imagine, but we don't have the choice any longer, as the flight was moved to Shannon.

    Flying from Shannon costs me more anyway, petrol, parking and so on.
    I'd rather fly from Cork and pay the difference.
    Cork cannot compete with Shannon tho.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,471 ✭✭✭highlydebased


    Dannyboy83 wrote:
    The loss of the WizzAir flights has been a serious blow. I'm happy to pay over the odds to fly to the Baltic from Cork, as are many passengers I'd imagine, but we don't have the choice any longer, as the flight was moved to Shannon.


    Cork-Vilnius was dropped and not moved to SNN.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,281 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Its strange isn't it, when there is complaints about the debt, Shannon is doing amazingly well stealing all of corks routes. When there a more general discussion about how cork is a great airport, it is said that Shannon is doing awful and has no real routes.

    Make up your minds! And try to do it without making up things!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Cork-Vilnius was dropped and not moved to SNN.

    Here is an analogy:
    Dunnes lost 100k customers.
    Lidl had a commensurate gain of 100k customers.

    'Stealing' doesn't enter the equation. Lidl have outcompeted Dunnes and attracted their customers.
    (Unless one suggests that Lidl attracted 100k shoppers who DID NOT previously shop at Dunnes)
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoi...on-284203.html
    In the last 12-18 months, it has been the loss of Wizz Air, which used Cork as its only Irish hub to a number of Eastern European locations and which accounted for 11% of the market. When Ryanair came in for a piece of its action, Wizz Air departed. With Wizz Air gone, Ryanair then moved those flights to Shannon. That is estimated to have cost Cork Airport 70,000 passengers this year so far, and will reach 150,000 by year end.

    Cork is losing 70k passengers, up to 150k passengers, to Shannon, from a flight dropped from Cork.

    Shannon has outcompeted Cork.
    Cork is unable to compete with any other airports.

    Key word is commensurate.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,281 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    Here is an analogy:
    Dunnes lost 100k customers.
    Lidl had a commensurate gain of 100k customers.

    'Stealing' doesn't enter the equation. Lidl have outcompeted Dunnes and attracted their customers.
    (Unless one suggests that Lidl attracted 100k shoppers who DID NOT previously shop at Dunnes)



    Cork is losing 70k passengers, up to 150k passengers, to Shannon, from a flight dropped from Cork.

    Shannon has outcompeted Cork.
    Cork is unable to compete with any other airports.

    Key word is commensurate.

    So what airline put in a replacement route to Shannon after wizz left? None. The anology doesn't work because the original point was again incorrect.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Carnacalla wrote: »
    So what airline put in a replacement route to Shannon after wizz left? None. The anology doesn't work because the original point was again incorrect.

    The analogy works perfectly.

    1. WizzAir had a flight to Lithuania from Cork.
    2. Ryanair, pursuing standard tactics, opened a competing flight & hunted them out of the market.
    3. Ryanair moved the flight to Shannon, from Cork, to take advantage of a better business model.
    4. Up to 150k former Cork to Lithuania Customers are now forced to fly from Shannon, as the Cork service no longer exists.
    5. Estimated that up to 50k are also now flying from Dublin.

    Shannon and Dublin had have commensurate gains relative to Cork's losses.

    Your contention requires that Shannon and Dublin have created 200k 'NEW' Passengers. That is statistically impossible.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,281 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    The analogy works perfectly.

    1. WizzAir had a flight to Lithuania from Cork.
    2. Ryanair, pursuing standard tactics, opened a competing flight & hunted them out of the market.
    3. Ryanair moved the flight to Shannon, from Cork, to take advantage of a better business model.
    4. Up to 150k former Cork to Lithuania Customers are now forced to fly from Shannon, as the Cork service no longer exists.
    5. Estimated that up to 50k are also now flying from Dublin.

    Shannon and Dublin had have commensurate gains relative to Cork's losses.

    Your contention requires that Shannon and Dublin have created 200k 'NEW' Passengers. That is statistically impossible.

    No service was moved from Cork to Shannon. None. A cork-villnus route is in no way the same as a Shannon-kaunas route. It was more like a transfer of the knock route as the flight is operated by a *Kaunas* aircraft. That's right, not a Villnus or Cork aircraft. Get your facts straight.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,281 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Cork - Modlin / Warsaw is now Shannon - Modlin / Warsaw

    When did Warsaw Modlin move from Poland to Lithuania?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Carnacalla wrote: »
    No service was moved from Cork to Shannon. None. A cork-villnus route is in no way the same as a Shannon-kaunas route. It was more like a transfer of the knock route as the flight is operated by a *Kaunas* aircraft. That's right, not a Villnus or Cork aircraft. Get your facts straight.

    My facts are straight. (and clearly presented).

    You have presented no counter argument, other than an extremely weak contention that a Shannon-Kaunas route which primarily cannibalised the passengers of a Cork-Vilnius route, is not comparable.

    This is irrational.

    By this logic, when 100k Dunnes shoppers no longer buy Chef Ketchup, but Lidl's Kania brand Ketchup, you are asserting that
    A) Ketchup != Ketchup.
    B) 100k former Dunnes Shoppers no longer eat ketchup

    Irrational argument is irrational.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,281 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    My god arguing with you is futile. Did you even read the remark that Shannon-Kaunas is simply a transfer of Knock-Kaunas. I've had this argument before and eventually it was found that I was in fact correct. It may have even been with you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    To be perfectly honest, I'd take Ryanair's statements with a very large dose of salt.

    They've been trying to start a Cork-Shannon price war for some time. I'd like to see evidence of those numbers of Cork passengers using Shannon.

    I know plenty of people who just don't bother flying to various places because there's no flight ex Cork and plenty of others who just don't really travel as much anymore at all due to financial constraints.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Carnacalla wrote: »
    My god arguing with you is futile. Did you even read the remark that Shannon-Kaunas is simply a transfer of Knock-Kaunas. I've had this argument before and eventually it was found that I was in fact correct. It may have even been with you.

    Arguing is not futile, merely I am relying on logic and verifiable fact, and you are relying on opinion.

    I doubt you have convinced me of that statement, since the only reason I actually maintain an interest in the Cork Airport issue, is solely due to the inconvenience the loss of the Cork flight is causing me.
    I still use the Malaga flight occasionally, but that's it.

    I did previously claim that many would simply fly to Stansted and you argued differently. On that issue, the passenger transfer figures show undeniably that you were correct and I was incorrect, the former Cork to Lithuania passengers now compose the vast majority of the current Shannon to Lithuania passengers.

    I also have anecdotal experience since I regularly fly to Lithuania and know the distances involved are small.
    A train from Kaunas to Vilnius is less than an hour.
    It's a journey many will end up making regardless of where they land.
    Public transport in Lithuania is considerably better than Ireland in many respects and very affordable by our standards.
    It's also merely the landing point for many travelling further onto Latvia/Estonia.
    Consequently, the entrypoint is much less significant than it is in Ireland, which is i) an island, ii) has atrocious public transport facilities outside Dublin.

    I'm not criticising Ryanair for moving the flight, it's fully compliant with their business model.
    Nor do I criticise Shannon for gaining the flight, they have a superior model to Cork and outcompeted Cork.
    Nor do I criticise Cork for losing the flight, they are unable to alter their business model.
    The criticism lies solely with the DAA.
    And I despair at the inaction by the DAA.

    However, I am content to use Shannon airport, provided some action is taken with regard to the road. This is my biggest gripe.

    The contention that the Shannon flight is merely a Knock-Kaunas flight is not statistically possible.

    I have already explained why this is so, but I must ask you, the 150k customers who previously flew from Cork to Lithuania. Where do you argue they now fly from?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,281 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    Arguing is not futile, merely I am relying on logic and verifiable fact, and you are relying on opinion.
    The fave is Villnus was not moved to Shannon. That's a fact. A verifiable fact. Go check the Ryanair page.
    The contention that the Shannon flight is merely a Knock-Kaunas flight is not statistically possible.
    How so? The passengers that used the knock service would mostly use the Shannon service, it's operated by the same aircraft as the old knock route?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭beer enigma


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    My facts are straight. (and clearly presented).

    You have presented no counter argument, other than an extremely weak contention that a Shannon-Kaunas route which primarily cannibalised the passengers of a Cork-Vilnius route, is not comparable.

    This is irrational.

    By this logic, when 100k Dunnes shoppers no longer buy Chef Ketchup, but Lidl's Kania brand Ketchup, you are asserting that
    A) Ketchup != Ketchup.
    B) 100k former Dunnes Shoppers no longer eat ketchup

    Irrational argument is irrational.

    Boards is a place for discussion, not argument...please read the rules.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Andip wrote: »
    Boards is a place for discussion, not argument...please read the rules.

    In logic and philosophy, an argument is a series of statements typically used to persuade someone of something or to present reasons for accepting a conclusion.

    argumentation; the action or process of reasoning systematically in support of an idea, action, or theory.

    I primarily post in the Politics forum, posters are expected to be able to back up their statements (it's in the forum charter). I can use different terminology if you prefer; debate.

    I see no mention against debating (logical argumentation) in this Forum's Charter

    [Sticky] Forum Charter
    For those of you who haven't posted here before, welcome!

    We got along without one of these for long enough, so I'll keep it brief...

    -The general boards.ie rules apply.
    -No spamming, no trolling, no flaming, no advertising.No posting or linking offensive material (such as pornography).
    -Personal abuse is not tolerated under any circumstances; if you have a point to make you can do so without resorting to petty insults.
    -Please use the "Report this post" feature (visible on each and every post under the user's profile) whenever you see something which breaches the charter or the general rules of boards.
    -A thread that has nothing to do with Cork will be moved to a more suitable forum.
    -Text Speak is also frowned upon, please try to use your entire keyboard when making a post.If you are unsure of anything PM a Mod,thats what we are here for.
    -Occasionally the more elitist among us like to pull the piss out of the PROC (People's Republic of Cork). Since this invariably results in a response in kind from PROCers, and means I have to issue either a forum ban or a siteban, it is not A Good Thing. Let them have their sandpit, and we'll have ours.
    -While threads about nightclubs/bars are acceptable, please do not drag the thread down by insulting staff members. This includes general insulting of certain profession when you mention a nightclubs/bars name.
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    Now that the necessary is out of the way, enjoy!

    If I am in breach of the rules, then I apologise, but you need to be more specific as to how, because it's not at all clear to me presently.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Carnacalla wrote: »
    The fave is Villnus was not moved to Shannon. That's a fact. A verifiable fact. Go check the Ryanair page.

    Claiming something is a fact doesn't make it so.

    If you wish to convince me, you need to provide evidence to substantiate your claim.

    How can I be expected to believe that opinion, when that opinion is incongruent with all available facts and statements:
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/passenger-numbers-soar-by-15-at-shannon-276613.html
    Speaking at the launch of its new services from Shannon, Ryanair’s Peter Bellew was critical of prices at Cork Airport which is losing its Ryanair service to Vilnius in Lithuania.

    “Shannon Airport has been far more progressive in terms of its pricing and its charges than Cork has. Cork hasn’t responded in the same way as the other airports to the change in the travel tax.

    “This year we have had limited enough aircraft available to put on new routes. We have found the prices are just too expensive in Cork.”
    http://www.eveningecho.ie/2014/10/24...set-fall-year/
    While increasing routes through Dublin and Shannon, Ryanair has cut services from Cork saying the charges here are too high. Cork Airport is controlled by the Dublin Airport Authority while Shannon has been made independent and debt-free.
    As a result, it can offer attractive landing charges to secure new routes. Ryanair has already switched some of its flights from Cork to Shannon to avail of cheaper charges. In the last month, their Cork to Lithuania flight was moved to Shannon.

    Carnacalla wrote: »
    How so? The passengers that used the knock service would mostly use the Shannon service, it's operated by the same aircraft as the old knock route?

    Because the addition of 3 routes in April 2014 resulted in a record breaking year at Knock airport, with passenger numbers exceeding 700,000 for the first time in the airport’s 29 year history.
    In 2014, the annual number of passengers using the airport increased by over 38,000 to 703,324, an increase of 5.7% on 2013 numbers.

    Shannon's European routes posted a 200,000 passenger increase on their European routes alone.
    http://www.shannonairport.ie/gns/about-us/traffic-figures.aspx
    European traffic saw the largest increase of 70% to over 400,000 passengers

    Europe
    2012- 236,699
    2013- 251,813
    2014- 427,887

    Domestic traffic contracted, while the next largest increase was transatlantic traffic, at 10%, or 30,000 passengers, followed by Great Britain, at under 30,000 passengers.

    Cork is estimated to have ceded from 70k, up to 150k passengers to Shannon as a result of the loss of the Lithuania route alone.
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoi...on-284203.html
    In the last 12-18 months, it has been the loss of Wizz Air, which used Cork as its only Irish hub to a number of Eastern European locations and which accounted for 11% of the market. When Ryanair came in for a piece of its action, Wizz Air departed. With Wizz Air gone, Ryanair then moved those flights to Shannon. That is estimated to have cost Cork Airport 70,000 passengers this year so far, and will reach 150,000 by year end.

    Ryanair have stated that up to 500,000 Corkonians are flying with Ryanair from Airports other than Cork:
    http://www.independent.ie/business/more-than-a-million-fliers-bypass-120m-cork-airport-30975357.html
    Ryanair told the Irish Independent that they handled 500,000 Cork-based passengers from other Irish airports last year including Dublin, Shannon and Kerry.

    As I said, it's statistically impossible.

    In order for that to be a valid assertion, the less than 38,000 former passengers from Knock would have had to begun cloning themselves, and the up to 150k former passengers from Cork would have had to take a vow not to fly to Lithuania anymore.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 573 ✭✭✭rebs23


    Carnacalla wrote: »
    No service was moved from Cork to Shannon. None. A cork-villnus route is in no way the same as a Shannon-kaunas route. It was more like a transfer of the knock route as the flight is operated by a *Kaunas* aircraft. That's right, not a Villnus or Cork aircraft. Get your facts straight.
    It's very obvious from this thread that you wish to defend Shannon airport and everything to do with it including the blatantly unfair competitive advantage handed to it by the deal it got (100 million wiped off its debt and the ongoing rent roll from former Shannon development properties) but it is simply not true to state that airlines have not moved routes from Cork to Shannon as a result of the favourable deals that Shannon can now offer airlines.
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/no-state-funding-lifeline-for-cork-airport-315271.html
    http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/cork-airport-passenger-numbers-1930643-Feb2015/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,281 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Just to clarify, I am in favour of a debt wipe of Cork Airport. The debt was caused under the mismanagement of the DAA and should be wiped.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,516 ✭✭✭Outkast_IRE


    This post has been deleted.
    Is that you MOL


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,281 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Actually no, it was created by building a 120 million terminal when an upgrade of 20 million to the old one would have done.

    It is a stupid white elephant.

    Is that not mismanagement?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    rebs23 wrote: »
    It's very obvious from this thread that you wish to defend Shannon airport and everything to do with it including the blatantly unfair competitive advantage handed to it by the deal it got (100 million wiped off its debt and the ongoing rent roll from former Shannon development properties)
    How many times are you going to repeat this in the thread?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,281 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Also to clarify, Shannon Airport will not get any use of the Shannon development rents. It's just rolling rumour to benefit corks agenda.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭roundymac


    How many times are you going to repeat this in the thread?
    As often as needed, it is the truth, it seems to me that the SNN lobby are scared that Cork will get debt relief, well don't worry lads, as long as Cork has ministers like Simom Coveny and meps like like Deridre "clown" Clune SNN is quite safe.


  • Registered Users Posts: 573 ✭✭✭rebs23


    How many times are you going to repeat this in the thread?
    As often as necessary especially when others drag it off topic or make ridiculous claims about Shannon and the reason for "the lack of new routes at Cork airport" which is the title of this thread. Amazing the amount of posters on here from the Shannon lobby.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,281 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    rebs23 wrote: »
    As often as necessary especially when others drag it off topic or make ridiculous claims about Shannon and the reason for "the lack of new routes at Cork airport" which is the title of this thread. Amazing the amount of posters on here from the Shannon lobby.

    Your comments were in fact, incorrect. You really cannot use the words -"when others make riduclous claims about Shannon"


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  • Registered Users Posts: 573 ✭✭✭rebs23


    Carnacalla wrote: »
    Your comments were in fact, incorrect. You really cannot use the words -"when others make riduclous claims about Shannon"

    What comments? The ones about Cork losing routes to Shannon I presume after the deal? Did you actually read the comments from the Chairman of the DAA in the links above? Or should we believe a spokesperson for Shannon posting anon on an Internet forum?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,281 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    rebs23 wrote: »
    What comments? The ones about Cork losing routes to Shannon I presume after the deal? Did you actually read the comments from the Chairman of the DAA in the links above? Or should we believe a spokesperson for Shannon posting anon on an Internet forum?

    A spokesperson for Shannon? Ha! That's rich.

    No, the comments about the Shannon Development rents. I actually commented on it already, did you read that one?


  • Registered Users Posts: 573 ✭✭✭rebs23


    Carnacalla wrote: »
    A spokesperson for Shannon? Ha! That's rich.

    No, the comments about the Shannon Development rents. I actually commented on it already, did you read that one?
    It's pretty simple really the holding company in charge of Shannon Airport get an annual ten roll from the former Shannon Development properties? What is there not to understand or disagree with or how is incorrect to state that this hand over of state property to a company running an Airport gives it a competitive advantage over other Airports?
    What is the annual rent roll from these?

    There has been plenty of links in this thread from a lot of different sources talking about this point and the unfair competitive advantage handed to Shannon by this government which is resulting in Cork losing flights to Shannon and not being able to offer the same deals. Maybe you should have a read of them?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,281 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Are you suggesting misconduct on behalf of Shannon Airport? That's a very serious claim, would you like to show evidence?


    Also, before making all them uneducated claims, read my recent position on Cork Airport.


  • Registered Users Posts: 573 ✭✭✭rebs23


    Carnacalla wrote: »
    Are you suggesting misconduct on behalf of Shannon Airport? That's a very serious claim, would you like to show evidence?


    Also, before making all them uneducated claims, read my recent position on Cork Airport.
    Read the following;
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/no-state-funding-lifeline-for-cork-airport-315271.html
    http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/cork-airport-passenger-numbers-1930643-Feb2015/
    They include the following paragraph;
    Mr Ó Ríordáin also said Cork Airport was at a disadvantage compared to other airports, pointing out that, during the separation of Shannon Airport from DAA (formerly Dublin Airport Authority), Shannon had €100m in debts written off and now had properties that generated substantial rent.

    Misconduct? Uneducated claims? Interesting that someone from the Shannon Region is posting on the Cork City forum in a thread about cork airport so much.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,281 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Mr O Riordan is mistaken, he has not done his research. I have cited this article before for being incorrect.

    Also, who are you to tell me where I can post? It seems to be the opinion of you that unless I am 100% supportive of cork airport I should f**k off and not post. Is that not your opinion?

    Its fairly obvious that the hostility of your posting shows how you have little points to make so reverting to petty insults fills up the spaces missing by lack of evidence/meaningful points.

    I'm behind cork Airport and think it should get a debt wipe, but such myths and hostility spread by the above post do not help anything.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,029 ✭✭✭Rhys Essien


    Carnacalla wrote: »
    Mr O Riordan is mistaken, he has not done his research. I have cited this article before for being incorrect.

    Also, who are you to tell me where I can post? It seems to be the opinion of you that unless I am 100% supportive of cork airport I should f**k off and not post. Is that not your opinion?

    Its fairly obvious that the hostility of your posting shows how you have little points to make so reverting to petty insults fills up the spaces missing by lack of evidence/meaningful points.

    I'm behind cork Airport and think it should get a debt wipe, but such myths and hostility spread by the above post do not help anything.

    Why do you continue to spell Cork wrong??.You cant be forgetting the Capital C.:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,331 ✭✭✭✭leahyl


    Guys, to be honest it's a getting a bit annoying all this stupid arguing and reporting posts for the least thing. Can you all please just discuss this civilly and stop resorting to petty comments. Please also remember that the title of the thread is "Lack of new routes at CORK airport" so please keep on topic.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    This will probably be my last post in this thread, so I intend to sum up my views as follows;

    The length of this thread and passion of the posters, regardless of their position, serves as an indictment of the government's refusal to even discuss the issue, nevermind find a resolution. Forums such as boards.ie contine to demonstrate the disconnect between government and the taxpayer/electorate, in a way which was never possible previously.

    I don't know how the people of Limerick/Shannon feel on the matter, but the Examiner has commented on the perception of the ongoing neglect of South-West on an increasing basis recently, and the Irish Times are even getting in on the act now.

    The Buchanan report on regional development way back in 1968, proposed designating both Cork and Limerick/Shannon as “national growth centres”, to counterbalance the development of Dublin, and that was a feature of the 2002 National Spatial Strategy, all largely ignored by government until, along with the National Development plan, they were scrapped in 2013.

    I already made some reference to it way back here, but the government don't have a vision for either Airport beyond Tourism, (and the regional in general apparently), especially not since the development of T2 in Dublin.

    The National Planning Framework is supposed to serve as a replacement for the NSS, and is supposed to be available in the next few weeks, for many months now.

    Despite this, the South-West is economically outperforming the rest of the country
    http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpubl.../#.VF5yAPmsV8E
    • In Ireland in 2011 the South-West region accounted for 36.2% or €36.7 billion of Irish industrial output. Dublin as a region produced 18.9% or €19.2 billion worth of industrial gross output in 2011.
    • South-West, West and Mid-West regions had more persons engaged in foreign owned industrial units than Irish owned in 2011
    • Wages and salaries per person engaged in the Industry sector in Ireland in 2011 was highest in the South-West region at €44,800, while the Dublin region was next highest at €44,700.
    • Almost €7.9 billion was spent on wages and salaries by industrial units in Ireland in 2011. The South-West region had the highest total spend at €1.5 billion while the Dublin region spent €1.4 billion.
    • In 2011, County Cork had the highest value of gross output per person engaged in Ireland at €1.18 million. Mayo and Roscommon combined was the next highest at €0.78 million, while County Dublin was third in the rankings with €0.62 million per person.

    The Examiner have been promoting the redevelopment of Cork, but this comes with a caveat - Cork City Developments: Investment in infrastructure is critical...everyone knows a lot of these projects are destined to fail unless the government demonstrate even a modicum of faith in the city/region's future, by at least planning to address the infrastructural problems.

    I was opposed to the retrofitting of cycling lanes in the city due to the glaring lack of an orbital road (but they are here now, so we may as well make the best of them), but to the best of my knowledge, even the development of the cycling infrastructure came from majority EU funding and it was a 'use it or lose it' scenario.
    Now with the increased congestion in the city and growing population, some breakthrough on the inadequate public transport and parking are more necessary than ever before. I'm not even sure how some of these new developments in the city got the green light given the congestion, but I digress.

    I don't know the specifics with regard to Limerick/Shannon, but I'm sure similar comments could be made in that respect. It's never a good sign when foreigners are surprised at the fact that there isn't even a motorway connecting the 2nd and 3rd cities in 2015, lol! ( 'National' Development Plan my hole! )

    Shannon are fortunate to have broken free from the government paralysis, but more importantly in my honest opinion they have very clearly demonstrated the inadequacy of the government and the DAA by rapidly turning a misery into a success story.

    Cork is still immobilized and will remain so indefinitely, so I feel there is really nothing more to discuss in this thread until that situation changes. My best guess is that Cork will have to suffer much more before it will even be discussed. The core reason being, I feel this specific situation is merely symptomatic (a critical symptom nevertheless) of the overall indifference of yet another Dublin-centric government toward hub strategy and regional development.

    I would never expect the regions, or the hubs, to receive the same level of investment or planning, anymore than a London-centric UK government do, and I was fully aware of that reality when I bought a house here, but it increasingly feels the government are divesting themselves of the regions and it's difficult to believe they have a vision, until they at least have a formal plan.
    It may seem preposterous to a naturally left leaning population here, but I feel there is a growing understanding that we will, in turn, have to heavily divest ourselves of reliance on national government to facilitate our future growth, and engage heavily in PPP schemes & we will also need stronger (and much more competent) local government.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,516 ✭✭✭Outkast_IRE


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »

    Shannon are fortunate to have broken free from the government paralysis, but more importantly in my honest opinion they have very clearly demonstrated the inadequacy of the government and the DAA by rapidly turning a misery into a success story.
    .

    I agree with quite a lot of your post, and to an extent Shannon can be considered a recent success story, however Shannon is now very tightly under the thumb of Ryanair. It is only a matter of time before Ryanair start turning the screws and demanding further cost reductions etc. etc.

    Unfortunately i think that Shannon will end up backing themselves into a corner, however i think it will be many years before we see the full effect.


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