Lack of new routes at Cork airport

draiochtanois

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SpaceTime

I don't see how opening the old terminal would help when the new terminal isn't even at half capacity. All you'd be doing is increasing the overheads for no reason.

The old terminal isn't even very attractive and had rather basic facilities.

You'd just give passengers a poor experience and increase costs for no reason.

There's no T1 or T2 there's just one operational terminal.

The debt is a big issue but the weak marketing to date has been a bigger one.

draiochtanois

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SpaceTime

How exactly would it reduce costs by doubling overheads?

Lack of terminal capacity is certainly not an issue at Cork!

Opening more terminal space in a second building would just cause two issues : huge increase in operating costs and a huge problem for retail sales.

As it stands the airport could offer cheaper slots anyway. It's not short of stands, slots, check in desks etc etc

The new terminal is pretty empty for large chunks of the day anyway!

draiochtanois

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SpaceTime

draiochtanois wrote: »

It would incrementally increase overheads, while bringing in substantially more revenue.

It used be that every flight I took originated in Cork, now it's one in 5.

How would it bring in more revenue?

There's already loads of spare capacity in the existing terminal. The airport can't reduce fees due to a big debt burden and it's not offering attractive enough marketing deals.

Opening a second terminal would if anything increase fees and overheads so, your ticket price would just go up.

Why would another substandard terminal building attract new airlines if the fees can't be reduced and there were no incentives?

I think to date there's been very passive marketing - that's improving

The major issue was the collapse of the economy. A large % of holiday flights and regular flights to Eastern Europe disappeared with the recession and change in the economy. Bear in mind that while Cork City is recovering fast, a lot of the areas Cork Airport serves are still pretty recession hit relative to Dublin& Leinster.

A lot of people may also have disposed of holiday homes in Spain and elsewhere due to the financial crisis or, aren't using them frequently opting to let them instead.

People aren't flying as much.

You've also had a slide in tourism numbers for a while due to the Eurozone, UK and global recessions. That's only recovering now and lasted years. The cheaper Euro may drive UK visits up a lot but may hit outbound traffic to the UK although it'll have no impact on traffic to other EZ countries as the costs remain stable.

The other big issue is massively improved road to Dublin.

Also Ryanair ran airlines off routes by going below cost and the when they had no competition, closing the route because they'd put way too much capacity on. I'm pretty sure that experience has made low cost carriers wary of Cork and other regional Irish airports.

draiochtanois

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SpaceTime

draiochtanois wrote: »

Passenger numbers at Dublin Airport increased by 8% last year to 21.7 million

http://daa.ie/gns/media-centre/press-releases/15-01-12/Dublin_Airport_Passenger_Numbers_Up_8_To_21_7M.aspx

To put that in perspective traffic at Dublin grew by almost as much as total annual traffic at Cork Airport.

As I said, there's been a strong recovery in Dublin with a localised recovery in Cork City.

lostinsuperfunk

Spacetime is right.
The operating terminal has spare capacity for at least 1,000,000 passengers per annum. It has plenty of room to expand and bring in more revenue. Why open another terminal incurring fit-out costs and increasing overall operating costs?
This is the same DAA thinking that got the airport into its current debt-ridden state.

beer enigma

kub wrote: »

Andip, you mentioned that traffic should increase in Cork in 2016, is that because it is an election year or is that just a coincidence?

There's a slight restructure of the debt repayment due in 2016 which will ease the burden on Cork - that may well have been planned for an election year, but either way it will allow Cork to offer better incentives by way of landing fees etc & they are already in talks with another carrier for 2016 as a result.

The other positive is that all of the offices in the old building should have been migrated to the new terminal by the end of 2015 so in effect the costs associated with keeping the old building 'live' can be thrown into the development pot ( and I won't need to keep an umbrella in my office).

At the moment, there are too many people in the old terminal to allow it to be knocked, so again once migrated, that's another option.

Dannyboy83

SpaceTime wrote: »

As I said, there's been a strong recovery in Dublin with a localised recovery in Cork City.
.
.
A lot of people may also have disposed of holiday homes in Spain and elsewhere due to the financial crisis or, aren't using them frequently opting to let them instead.

People aren't flying as much.

That's not empirically supported.

1. The number of Corkonians flying has not decreased significantly at all; but the number flying from Cork Airport has by 500,000

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/ryanair-say-movement-is-needed-to-lower-cork-airport-charges/
Mr Jacobs conceded that Cork Airport had been unable to offer the same type of deals as other airports, such as Shannon, because it had been saddled with debts of more than €120m.

He also revealed that 500,000 Corkonians flew with Ryanair in 2014 from other airports while 812,000 flew with the airline from Cork.
He said: “We’ve got growth in the number of Corkonians flying with us out of Shannon, out of Dublin, but not everyone in Cork wants to do that. It’s not really in our hands. We’d like to have more flights back here. We need to get the charges down. There needs to be a big movement (in prices) for Cork to be competitive.”

2. Factor in another 500,000 people for South Munster:

http://www.independent.ie/business/more-than-a-million-fliers-bypass-120m-cork-airport-30975357.html
It is now estimated that more than one million passenger journeys by Munster-based travellers bypass Cork Airport in favour of Dublin, Shannon and even Kerry.
Ryanair told the Irish Independent that they handled 500,000 Cork-based passengers from other Irish airports last year including Dublin, Shannon and Kerry.
A further 500,000 south Munster-based passengers are also opting for Dublin and Shannon services with Aer Lingus and other carriers due to greater route choices including transatlantic services.

That gives a total of 1million bypassing Cork Airport.

Just to go over the actual collapse of Cork Airport again:
Peak figures from Cork were 3.2 million
Recent figures were slipping under 2.1 million
Difference: 1.1 million

3. Now compare the gains at Shannon, Knock, Kerry and Dublin

Traffic losses at Cork have been offset by commensurate gains elsewhere.

The latest Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) figures show that while Dublin (+6.5pc) and Shannon (+18.7pc) both registered significant increases in passenger numbers in 2014, Cork suffered further losses (-3.8pc).

After 5 years of decline, Shannon airport saw a 17% increase in passengers in 2014. The airport gained over 200,000 passengers
.
.
The good news for Shannon comes in contrast to the massive downturn in passengers for Cork airport. Cork airport has lost 36% of its passengers, over a million in total. Over the same period, it has lost carriers including Malev, EasyJet, Wizz, ThomsonFly, CentralWings, BMIBaby, Air Wales, British European and Loganair. The painful part is that over 500,000 Munster flyers have chosen to use other airports, despite Cork airport spending €120 million on a new terminal.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoi...on-284203.html
a peak of 3.25m passengers in 2008, Cork airport looks set to drop to 2.1m this year. Shannon has seen a slight increase, from 1.3m passengers in 2012 to 1.4m last year. Dublin Airport handled 20.17m passengers in 2013 — up 6% on 2012. Cork has seen its passenger numbers slump by almost 5% since the start of the year alone, with July figures down almost 6%. That compares to a 15% increase in passenger figures at Shannon for the first six months of 2014.

However, if one delves behind the headline numbers, there are a number of factors which have lead to the decline at Cork.

The biggest impact between 2008 and now has been the loss of the Cork-Dublin route which, at its peak, accounted for half a million passengers per year.

In the last 12-18 months, it has been the loss of Wizz Air, which used Cork as its only Irish hub to a number of Eastern European locations and which accounted for 11% of the market. When Ryanair came in for a piece of its action, Wizz Air departed. With Wizz Air gone, Ryanair then moved those flights to Shannon. That is estimated to have cost Cork Airport 70,000 passengers this year so far, and will reach 150,000 by year end.

You are correct about the improved road to Dublin being a factor (hence when I think the inertia surrounding the Limerick-Cork abomination 'suits' the government at the moment, as that will only kill Cork faster).

The loss of the WizzAir flights has been a serious blow.
I'm happy to pay over the odds to fly to the Baltic from Cork, as are many passengers I'd imagine, but we don't have the choice any longer, as the flight was moved to Shannon.

Flying from Shannon costs me more anyway, petrol, parking and so on.
I'd rather fly from Cork and pay the difference.
Cork cannot compete with Shannon tho.

highlydebased

Dannyboy83 wrote:

The loss of the WizzAir flights has been a serious blow. I'm happy to pay over the odds to fly to the Baltic from Cork, as are many passengers I'd imagine, but we don't have the choice any longer, as the flight was moved to Shannon.

Cork-Vilnius was dropped and not moved to SNN.

JCX BXC

Its strange isn't it, when there is complaints about the debt, Shannon is doing amazingly well stealing all of corks routes. When there a more general discussion about how cork is a great airport, it is said that Shannon is doing awful and has no real routes.

Make up your minds! And try to do it without making up things!

Dannyboy83

highlydebased wrote: »

Cork-Vilnius was dropped and not moved to SNN.

Here is an analogy:
Dunnes lost 100k customers.
Lidl had a commensurate gain of 100k customers.

'Stealing' doesn't enter the equation. Lidl have outcompeted Dunnes and attracted their customers.
(Unless one suggests that Lidl attracted 100k shoppers who DID NOT previously shop at Dunnes)

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoi...on-284203.html
In the last 12-18 months, it has been the loss of Wizz Air, which used Cork as its only Irish hub to a number of Eastern European locations and which accounted for 11% of the market. When Ryanair came in for a piece of its action, Wizz Air departed. With Wizz Air gone, Ryanair then moved those flights to Shannon. That is estimated to have cost Cork Airport 70,000 passengers this year so far, and will reach 150,000 by year end.

Cork is losing 70k passengers, up to 150k passengers, to Shannon, from a flight dropped from Cork.

Shannon has outcompeted Cork.
Cork is unable to compete with any other airports.

Key word is commensurate.

JCX BXC

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Here is an analogy:
Dunnes lost 100k customers.
Lidl had a commensurate gain of 100k customers.

'Stealing' doesn't enter the equation. Lidl have outcompeted Dunnes and attracted their customers.
(Unless one suggests that Lidl attracted 100k shoppers who DID NOT previously shop at Dunnes)



Cork is losing 70k passengers, up to 150k passengers, to Shannon, from a flight dropped from Cork.

Shannon has outcompeted Cork.
Cork is unable to compete with any other airports.

Key word is commensurate.

So what airline put in a replacement route to Shannon after wizz left? None. The anology doesn't work because the original point was again incorrect.

Dannyboy83

Carnacalla wrote: »

So what airline put in a replacement route to Shannon after wizz left? None. The anology doesn't work because the original point was again incorrect.

The analogy works perfectly.

1. WizzAir had a flight to Lithuania from Cork.
2. Ryanair, pursuing standard tactics, opened a competing flight & hunted them out of the market.
3. Ryanair moved the flight to Shannon, from Cork, to take advantage of a better business model.
4. Up to 150k former Cork to Lithuania Customers are now forced to fly from Shannon, as the Cork service no longer exists.
5. Estimated that up to 50k are also now flying from Dublin.

Shannon and Dublin had have commensurate gains relative to Cork's losses.

Your contention requires that Shannon and Dublin have created 200k 'NEW' Passengers. That is statistically impossible.

JCX BXC

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The analogy works perfectly.

1. WizzAir had a flight to Lithuania from Cork.
2. Ryanair, pursuing standard tactics, opened a competing flight & hunted them out of the market.
3. Ryanair moved the flight to Shannon, from Cork, to take advantage of a better business model.
4. Up to 150k former Cork to Lithuania Customers are now forced to fly from Shannon, as the Cork service no longer exists.
5. Estimated that up to 50k are also now flying from Dublin.

Shannon and Dublin had have commensurate gains relative to Cork's losses.

Your contention requires that Shannon and Dublin have created 200k 'NEW' Passengers. That is statistically impossible.

No service was moved from Cork to Shannon. None. A cork-villnus route is in no way the same as a Shannon-kaunas route. It was more like a transfer of the knock route as the flight is operated by a *Kaunas* aircraft. That's right, not a Villnus or Cork aircraft. Get your facts straight.

draiochtanois

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JCX BXC

draiochtanois wrote: »

Cork - Modlin / Warsaw is now Shannon - Modlin / Warsaw

When did Warsaw Modlin move from Poland to Lithuania?

draiochtanois

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Dannyboy83

Carnacalla wrote: »

No service was moved from Cork to Shannon. None. A cork-villnus route is in no way the same as a Shannon-kaunas route. It was more like a transfer of the knock route as the flight is operated by a *Kaunas* aircraft. That's right, not a Villnus or Cork aircraft. Get your facts straight.

My facts are straight. (and clearly presented).

You have presented no counter argument, other than an extremely weak contention that a Shannon-Kaunas route which primarily cannibalised the passengers of a Cork-Vilnius route, is not comparable.

This is irrational.

By this logic, when 100k Dunnes shoppers no longer buy Chef Ketchup, but Lidl's Kania brand Ketchup, you are asserting that
A) Ketchup != Ketchup.
100k former Dunnes Shoppers no longer eat ketchup

Irrational argument is irrational.

JCX BXC

My god arguing with you is futile. Did you even read the remark that Shannon-Kaunas is simply a transfer of Knock-Kaunas. I've had this argument before and eventually it was found that I was in fact correct. It may have even been with you.

SpaceTime

To be perfectly honest, I'd take Ryanair's statements with a very large dose of salt.

They've been trying to start a Cork-Shannon price war for some time. I'd like to see evidence of those numbers of Cork passengers using Shannon.

I know plenty of people who just don't bother flying to various places because there's no flight ex Cork and plenty of others who just don't really travel as much anymore at all due to financial constraints.

Dannyboy83

Carnacalla wrote: »

My god arguing with you is futile. Did you even read the remark that Shannon-Kaunas is simply a transfer of Knock-Kaunas. I've had this argument before and eventually it was found that I was in fact correct. It may have even been with you.

Arguing is not futile, merely I am relying on logic and verifiable fact, and you are relying on opinion.

I doubt you have convinced me of that statement, since the only reason I actually maintain an interest in the Cork Airport issue, is solely due to the inconvenience the loss of the Cork flight is causing me.
I still use the Malaga flight occasionally, but that's it.

I did previously claim that many would simply fly to Stansted and you argued differently. On that issue, the passenger transfer figures show undeniably that you were correct and I was incorrect, the former Cork to Lithuania passengers now compose the vast majority of the current Shannon to Lithuania passengers.

I also have anecdotal experience since I regularly fly to Lithuania and know the distances involved are small.
A train from Kaunas to Vilnius is less than an hour.
It's a journey many will end up making regardless of where they land.
Public transport in Lithuania is considerably better than Ireland in many respects and very affordable by our standards.
It's also merely the landing point for many travelling further onto Latvia/Estonia.
Consequently, the entrypoint is much less significant than it is in Ireland, which is i) an island, ii) has atrocious public transport facilities outside Dublin.

I'm not criticising Ryanair for moving the flight, it's fully compliant with their business model.
Nor do I criticise Shannon for gaining the flight, they have a superior model to Cork and outcompeted Cork.
Nor do I criticise Cork for losing the flight, they are unable to alter their business model.
The criticism lies solely with the DAA.
And I despair at the inaction by the DAA.

However, I am content to use Shannon airport, provided some action is taken with regard to the road. This is my biggest gripe.

The contention that the Shannon flight is merely a Knock-Kaunas flight is not statistically possible.

I have already explained why this is so, but I must ask you, the 150k customers who previously flew from Cork to Lithuania. Where do you argue they now fly from?

JCX BXC

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Arguing is not futile, merely I am relying on logic and verifiable fact, and you are relying on opinion.

The fave is Villnus was not moved to Shannon. That's a fact. A verifiable fact. Go check the Ryanair page.

The contention that the Shannon flight is merely a Knock-Kaunas flight is not statistically possible.

How so? The passengers that used the knock service would mostly use the Shannon service, it's operated by the same aircraft as the old knock route?

beer enigma

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

My facts are straight. (and clearly presented).

You have presented no counter argument, other than an extremely weak contention that a Shannon-Kaunas route which primarily cannibalised the passengers of a Cork-Vilnius route, is not comparable.

This is irrational.

By this logic, when 100k Dunnes shoppers no longer buy Chef Ketchup, but Lidl's Kania brand Ketchup, you are asserting that
A) Ketchup != Ketchup.
100k former Dunnes Shoppers no longer eat ketchup

Irrational argument is irrational.

Boards is a place for discussion, not argument...please read the rules.

Dannyboy83

Andip wrote: »

Boards is a place for discussion, not argument...please read the rules.

In logic and philosophy, an argument is a series of statements typically used to persuade someone of something or to present reasons for accepting a conclusion.

argumentation; the action or process of reasoning systematically in support of an idea, action, or theory.

I primarily post in the Politics forum, posters are expected to be able to back up their statements (it's in the forum charter). I can use different terminology if you prefer; debate.

I see no mention against debating (logical argumentation) in this Forum's Charter

[Sticky] Forum Charter
For those of you who haven't posted here before, welcome!

We got along without one of these for long enough, so I'll keep it brief...

-The general boards.ie rules apply.
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-Personal abuse is not tolerated under any circumstances; if you have a point to make you can do so without resorting to petty insults.
-Please use the "Report this post" feature (visible on each and every post under the user's profile) whenever you see something which breaches the charter or the general rules of boards.
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-Text Speak is also frowned upon, please try to use your entire keyboard when making a post.If you are unsure of anything PM a Mod,thats what we are here for.
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Now that the necessary is out of the way, enjoy!

If I am in breach of the rules, then I apologise, but you need to be more specific as to how, because it's not at all clear to me presently.

Dannyboy83

Carnacalla wrote: »

The fave is Villnus was not moved to Shannon. That's a fact. A verifiable fact. Go check the Ryanair page.

Claiming something is a fact doesn't make it so.

If you wish to convince me, you need to provide evidence to substantiate your claim.

How can I be expected to believe that opinion, when that opinion is incongruent with all available facts and statements:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/passenger-numbers-soar-by-15-at-shannon-276613.html
Speaking at the launch of its new services from Shannon, Ryanair’s Peter Bellew was critical of prices at Cork Airport which is losing its Ryanair service to Vilnius in Lithuania.

“Shannon Airport has been far more progressive in terms of its pricing and its charges than Cork has. Cork hasn’t responded in the same way as the other airports to the change in the travel tax.

“This year we have had limited enough aircraft available to put on new routes. We have found the prices are just too expensive in Cork.”

http://www.eveningecho.ie/2014/10/24...set-fall-year/
While increasing routes through Dublin and Shannon, Ryanair has cut services from Cork saying the charges here are too high. Cork Airport is controlled by the Dublin Airport Authority while Shannon has been made independent and debt-free.
As a result, it can offer attractive landing charges to secure new routes. Ryanair has already switched some of its flights from Cork to Shannon to avail of cheaper charges. In the last month, their Cork to Lithuania flight was moved to Shannon.

Carnacalla wrote: »

How so? The passengers that used the knock service would mostly use the Shannon service, it's operated by the same aircraft as the old knock route?

Because the addition of 3 routes in April 2014 resulted in a record breaking year at Knock airport, with passenger numbers exceeding 700,000 for the first time in the airport’s 29 year history.
In 2014, the annual number of passengers using the airport increased by over 38,000 to 703,324, an increase of 5.7% on 2013 numbers.

Shannon's European routes posted a 200,000 passenger increase on their European routes alone.

http://www.shannonairport.ie/gns/about-us/traffic-figures.aspx
European traffic saw the largest increase of 70% to over 400,000 passengers

Europe
2012- 236,699
2013- 251,813
2014- 427,887

Domestic traffic contracted, while the next largest increase was transatlantic traffic, at 10%, or 30,000 passengers, followed by Great Britain, at under 30,000 passengers.

Cork is estimated to have ceded from 70k, up to 150k passengers to Shannon as a result of the loss of the Lithuania route alone.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoi...on-284203.html
In the last 12-18 months, it has been the loss of Wizz Air, which used Cork as its only Irish hub to a number of Eastern European locations and which accounted for 11% of the market. When Ryanair came in for a piece of its action, Wizz Air departed. With Wizz Air gone, Ryanair then moved those flights to Shannon. That is estimated to have cost Cork Airport 70,000 passengers this year so far, and will reach 150,000 by year end.

Ryanair have stated that up to 500,000 Corkonians are flying with Ryanair from Airports other than Cork:

http://www.independent.ie/business/more-than-a-million-fliers-bypass-120m-cork-airport-30975357.html
Ryanair told the Irish Independent that they handled 500,000 Cork-based passengers from other Irish airports last year including Dublin, Shannon and Kerry.

As I said, it's statistically impossible.

In order for that to be a valid assertion, the less than 38,000 former passengers from Knock would have had to begun cloning themselves, and the up to 150k former passengers from Cork would have had to take a vow not to fly to Lithuania anymore.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

rebs23

Carnacalla wrote: »

No service was moved from Cork to Shannon. None. A cork-villnus route is in no way the same as a Shannon-kaunas route. It was more like a transfer of the knock route as the flight is operated by a *Kaunas* aircraft. That's right, not a Villnus or Cork aircraft. Get your facts straight.

It's very obvious from this thread that you wish to defend Shannon airport and everything to do with it including the blatantly unfair competitive advantage handed to it by the deal it got (100 million wiped off its debt and the ongoing rent roll from former Shannon development properties) but it is simply not true to state that airlines have not moved routes from Cork to Shannon as a result of the favourable deals that Shannon can now offer airlines.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/no-state-funding-lifeline-for-cork-airport-315271.html
http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/cork-airport-passenger-numbers-1930643-Feb2015/