Lack of new routes at Cork airport

KCAccidental

Don't think Cork airport will ever go bankrupt while under DAA ownership. The mothership would swallow any losses.

If it did end up bankrupt, I would imagine the government would intervene. As for private business trying to reopen the old terminal... the cost of refurbishing and getting the place up to security standards wouldn't be worth the effort.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

KCAccidental

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/mhcwaugbqlsn/

down at the end.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Nemanrio

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Maybe so, but as has already been said, the cost to bring it up to syandard would surely be quite significant?

KCAccidental

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

there is no such thing as terminal 1 & 2 at Cork Airport. There is the terminal and then there is a building in a state of decay with no baggage system or facilities.

JCX BXC

May I ask, is the Old Terminal used anymore, even for offices?

Dannyboy83

KCAccidental wrote: »

Don't think Cork airport will ever go bankrupt while under DAA ownership. The mothership would swallow any losses.

You may well be right, but Cork Airport is already insolvent and performing atrociously, so Cork's future depends on the DAA not having any problems themselves.

If it did end up bankrupt, I would imagine the government would intervene.

Possibly, but it would depend on the political climate at the time it goes bankrupt.

If it continues to be a money pit, and it no longer features as part of the strategic development plans, any government can justify it's closure citing declining passenger numbers and lack of demand, with an alternative service available at Shannon.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

KCAccidental

Carnacalla wrote: »

May I ask, is the Old Terminal used anymore, even for offices?

I think there are some offices in there or there was up until couple of years ago, but it is mainly empty. You get the odd cultural event up there.

Dannyboy83

KCAccidental wrote: »

there is no such thing as terminal 1 & 2 at Cork Airport. There is the terminal and then there is a building in a state of decay with no baggage system or facilities.

The old building will probably be demolished regardless of who buys it.

Private business would be buying access to the runway and facilities, Air services from Cork can be highly profitable in the absence of the current public monopoly.

A private company will be able to compete with Shannon and Dublin on an even playing field, more than likely they would end up buying the new terminal back from NAMA in the future.

notharrypotter

Fascinating.

We have gone from talking about air bridges and who wants to pay to use them to putting Cork airport plc into NAMA.

The state via the DAA owns Cork airport so NAMA will never enter the equation.

We are emerging from a severe recession and a realignment of wealth.
Air travel is finding its "natural level" for Knock/Shannon/Kerry/Cork airports.

Whether part of the DAA or as a stand alone entity, commercial concerns will be paramount.

I nave visited all airports in the Republic bar Donegal over the years, mostly out of curiosity.

Critical mass is a issue. Leave aside the its my local airport sentiment and be objective.

Each airport infrastructure can accommodate "X - local" number passengers per annum.

Where "X - local" number is less than 5 million you have problems.
New EU rules on state support to Airports views 5 million passengers as being the magic number where an airport can be self sufficent.

Add the current passenger numbers of Knock/Shannon/Kerry/Cork and what do you get?


The cost of increasing that capacity at Knock/Shannon/Kerry/Cork will be beyond the ability of the airport concerned without outside assistance (taxpayer to you and me).

Cork new terminal has ample capacity for the foreseeable future (decades).

The volume of traffic operating into Knock/Shannon/Kerry/Cork is amply contained by current infrastructure.

Do I see growth in passengers at Knock/Shannon/Kerry/Cork over the coming years?

Yes.

Do I see significant extra infrastructure needed at Knock/Shannon/Kerry/Cork?

No.

Do I see refurbishment of current structures at Knock/Shannon/Kerry/Cork?

A qualified yes.

The new rules regarding state support for airports will have an input.

I see 2 being able to fund most remedial works within their own resources.
The other 2 will need state support either via direct from the Dept of Transport or sideways using the local authorities remains to be seen.

This access to funding for what will never be economically viable will be a balancing act between supporting NEEDED access and vanity projects.

The proposers of many of the projects will be over emphasizing the benefits while underplaying the cost.

Yes airbridges are lovely when its raining but like everything in life they cost money.

1. Can Kerry/Knock afford them?
2. Can Cork afford to buy and operate more?

That is the bottom line.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

beer enigma

Carnacalla wrote: »

May I ask, is the Old Terminal used anymore, even for offices?

Yes, my own office is still in the old building.

We have quite a few in use, mainly in one section where is doesn't leak (as much), also have the Duty Managers office & Ops in there.

notharrypotter

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Out of curiosity what do you think pays for the heat/light/staff/rates etc?

What comparisons have you to support your high charges comment?

Air travel still has an aura of mystery causing some commentators to have some unrealistic ideas.

Airport's are a large chunk of real estate with similarly large fixed costs, most transparent to the normal passenger.

While Ryanair and other Low Cost operations have driven down the cost of travel, the unseen fixed costs of running an airport have not gone away.

When passenger numbers are high the cost is spread over a greater number resulting in a lower average per passenger charge.
When passenger numbers are low the cost is spread over a smaller number resulting in a higher average per passenger charge.

The last point coupled with improved surface connectivity can become a vicious circle.

SpaceTime

The most easily addressed issue is marketing. We need to ensure that cork airport is promoted as well as possible and that it's connected to a tourism and possibly conference marketing effort (particularly when new venues open up in Cork City over the coming years).

I think they also need to look at subsidising transport links to Cork Airport to get passengers in from the hinterland and catchment area.

One of the biggest issues is all roads and public transport tends to lead to Dublin and even where it also leads to Cork, there's no awareness amongst the public.

Cork needs to market itself much more aggressively both the airport and the City itself too as a shopping destination for people from all over the Midlands and south.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

notharrypotter

What other airport's charges have you used for comparison?

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

notharrypotter

Nice try.
Can you give like for like for Ireland?

Can you give like for like utility costs?

Can you give like for like social costs?

Can you quantify state support, both overt and covert?

Can you give like for like Air Traffic Control charges?

It's easy to be glib but the world is spread rarely black and white.

Far too easy to spout "common knowledge" when the actual devil is in the detail.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

notharrypotter

So you have nothing.

Merely parroting.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

notharrypotter

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

So you do not have anything?:D

beer enigma

Put the handbags away please lads

daithi7

Cork is now firmly stuck between a capital and a debt free place and it simply cannot compete.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/coveney-rules-out-debt-deal-for-cork-airport-322323.html

With Cork being run by a monopolistic crowd called the Dublin Airport Authority (the clue is in the name , init?!), who really just want it as feeder airport to their main asset in Dublin (after all, Cork may be transformed into a true competitor by a government with some cop on and cojones some day, so why help it now???...), Cork is operationally, budgetarily and every other way shackled down by a monopolistic, competitor owner.

Also with Shannon having landed a debt free deal, they can and are undercutting Cork at every turn. The last freight business left Cork this week for Shannon, that is alarming. This along with something like 120,000 passengers a year. That's not acceptable for the island's second city, especially with employment and progress now almost totally dependent on the multinational sector these days, who simple demand regular air access to a city like Cork, before even considering locating there.

What's really needed from Cork's and Ireland Inc's point of view is a strong, viable, independent Cork Airport, fully free of the shackles of the DAA. Everyone knows this. The obvious way to set this up is for a full review by consultants to determine the manageable level of debt that the airport can sustain, and then incorporate it with this level of debt and a new umbrella owner and management team and business plan going forward. That is a straightforward solution to a 10 year old political deception. Thanks Bertie, you beaut!!

How any self respecting government can leave a brand new, brilliant & vital piece of infrastructure flounder and lose passengers and traffic for so long in its second city, during a crisis time for the country, with increased regional employment the only solution, is a question we should ask of our gormless and witless politicians. It's truly pathetic.

JCX BXC

FedEx didn't leave cork for Shannon. Get your facts straight people!

beer enigma

Carnacalla wrote: »

FedEx didn't leave cork for Shannon. Get your facts straight people!

Quite right and cargo won't save Cork anyway. Plans are to move the cargo area anyway as it's taking up valuable space close to the terminal.

It's hard to comment much as I'm privy to a lot of what's going on and can't say much, but there are a few hard facts here:

- For cork to lower its landing fees just to attract Ryanair would be suicide, whilst a great carrier, ryanair makes its money from its model of moving from one site to another to get preferential rates. The original deal with Shannon is nearly unsustainable for shannon and there's a good chance a lot of ryanair routes will move during 2015/16. If cork lowered it rates to get Ryanair in then Ryanair would have a hold over cork to further lower rates or they could move, that would close cork. The management of cork, under current budget restraints are playing a good long game.

- cork is expected to be down 5% again this year, but predicted to be even or slightly up for 2016

- talk of Ryanair and the old terminal is rubbish, it needs roughly €60m to get it useable again and as landlords, DAA /CAA would have to pay. Ryanair would be tenants, no other way of doing it as the IAA security rules would prohibit Ryanair controlling security etc. there's no baggage system in there any more, the roof is leaking, the windows and doors need replacing and the security system alone would make it unfeasable. Spend on the terminal would be an operational expense which limits the ability to write it off. Knock it down ( you can write the costs off) and rebuild is Capex which is deductible. Chuck in a conference centre and you have a saleable asset that could bring in traffic.

- USA......hmm, could be done, runway will take a 757 which would do the trick but unless Norweigan low cost from Dub (which isn't really low) takes off then can't see this happening. Dub sees its future as a transit hub not a departure hub. Etheopian is the one to watch from Dub.

And finally, the good news, 2016 is seen as a good year for Cork given current and......if they can get a deal on debt then it actually looks quite rosy.

Excuse the length of message, but good to put some myths right.

Nemanrio

Andip wrote: »

Quite right and cargo won't save Cork anyway. Plans are to move the cargo area anyway as it's taking up valuable space close to the terminal.

It's hard to comment much as I'm privy to a lot of what's going on and can't say much, but there are a few hard facts here:

- For cork to lower its landing fees just to attract Ryanair would be suicide, whilst a great carrier, ryanair makes its money from its model of moving from one site to another to get preferential rates. The original deal with Shannon is nearly unsustainable for shannon and there's a good chance a lot of ryanair routes will move during 2015/16. If cork lowered it rates to get Ryanair in then Ryanair would have a hold over cork to further lower rates or they could move, that would close cork. The management of cork, under current budget restraints are playing a good long game.

- cork is expected to be down 5% again this year, but predicted to be even or slightly up for 2016

- talk of Ryanair and the old terminal is rubbish, it needs roughly €60m to get it useable again and as landlords, DAA /CAA would have to pay. Ryanair would be tenants, no other way of doing it as the IAA security rules would prohibit Ryanair controlling security etc. there's no baggage system in there any more, the roof is leaking, the windows and doors need replacing and the security system alone would make it unfeasable. Spend on the terminal would be an operational expense which limits the ability to write it off. Knock it down ( you can write the costs off) and rebuild is Capex which is deductible. Chuck in a conference centre and you have a saleable asset that could bring in traffic.

- USA......hmm, could be done, runway will take a 757 which would do the trick but unless Norweigan low cost from Dub (which isn't really low) takes off then can't see this happening. Dub sees its future as a transit hub not a departure hub. Etheopian is the one to watch from Dub.

And finally, the good news, 2016 is seen as a good year for Cork given current and......if they can get a deal on debt then it actually looks quite rosy.

Excuse the length of message, but good to put some myths right.

If fees aren't going to be lowered, then what is the plan to attract other airlines? Where is the incentive?

kub

Andip, you mentioned that traffic should increase in Cork in 2016, is that because it is an election year or is that just a coincidence?