Better Call Saul Spoilers

Tony EH · 08-04-2015 9:11am

noodler wrote: »

I wish people would stop quoting the bitter ramblings of Chuck and using "cos he's Slippin Jimmy' as a catch-all explanation!

Chuck's motivations for saying it were bitter and twisted.

It would be as easy to see that he is a reformed character whose betrayal by his brother ultimately knocked him back into a a shady life.

But, it's not "the bitter ramblings of Chuck", it's the script and the character. Jimmy McGill is a scammer. A scammer who tried to break into something other than being a small time scammer, but a scammer nonetheless.

His old folks home schtick wasn't entered into out of the goodness of his heart, it was a get rich quick scam, where he stood to benefit greatly.

Chucks betrayal simply greased the wheels for Jimmy to, ahem, slip back into his old ways.

Doctor Jimbob · 08-04-2015 9:13am

noodler wrote: »

But 'Deep down' he worked his ass off to get a degree, pass the bar, work in elder law, discover the class action suit etc - Very difficult to argue he has no interest in the position deep down.

All of which he did to prove himself to Chuck as much as anything else. Note the fact he says 'he's my brother' a few times during his trip home: despite Chuck's 'betrayal' he still looks up to the guy. Plus as someone else just pointed out he's not turning his back on being a lawyer, he's simply turning his back on being a straight laced one.

We are supposed to believe that Chuck's betrayal has pushed him over the edge but it seems confusing that he has a chance of everything he worked so hard for with the rival firm and is bottling it.

Which there could be a number of reasons for: 1) Chucks betrayal hit him harder than some people are allowing for; 2) He thinks he can earn more money by being a dodgy lawyer. 3) Despite his hard work he never truly wanted to go down that path or 4), and I'd say the most likely: Some combination of the above.

noodler · 08-04-2015 9:14am

johnpatrick81 wrote: »

Finally, it's like he has walked away from a billion dollar fee the way some of you are reacting. He had a possible job with this other firm, there was still loads of work ahead of him to even get the job, brown nosing, etc. It was not a done deal.

They wanted him though, he'd be working on the case he brought. There was every chance he would get it.

What exactly is he giving it up for? He has absolutely nothing on the side apart from the Elder Law business. If there was a shady mobster on the sidelines offering 100,000 a year then I would understand the confliction but as it is, he is using throwing away 800k as justification for throwing away the job he has worked so hard for.

johnpatrick81 · 08-04-2015 9:19am

noodler wrote: »

They wanted him though, he'd be working on the case he brought. There was every chance he would get it.

What exactly is he giving it up for? He has absolutely nothing on the side apart from the Elder Law business. If there was a shady mobster on the sidelines offering 100,000 a year then I would understand the confliction but as it is, he is using throwing away 800k as justification for throwing away the job he has worked so hard for.

He had a tip that they were interested. Kim even mentioned to turn up at the court as "it would look good", hinting it was not by any means a sealed deal. His big act as he was walking towards the door trying to make a great impression highlighting the fact that he was gonna have to put on a show and perhaps be somebody he really isn't.

Yikes, he is not giving it up for Elder law, he is giving it up to become SAUL GOODMAN!! Jaysus! He no longer wants to be mr good guy impressing Chuck. It's **** Chuck, hello Saul. Really?!?!!?

Tony EH · 08-04-2015 9:23am

All we need to know about Jimmy McGill is that he's not even genuine enough to trade under his own name for gods sake. He uses a Jewish name to sound more authentic!

Jimmy is the epitome of a shyster lawyer. He's Lionel Hutz made flesh.

I think some people are blinded by the fact that he's the star of the show and that he's a rounded character and not some mustache twirling Vaudevillian cutout.

FloatingVoter · 08-04-2015 9:25am

Tony EH wrote: »

But, it's not "the bitter ramblings of Chuck", it's the script and the character. Jimmy McGill is a scammer. A scammer who tried to break into something other than being a small time scammer, but a scammer nonetheless.

His old folks home schtick wasn't entered into out of the goodness of his heart, it was a get rich quick scam, where he stood to benefit greatly.

Chucks betrayal simply greased the wheels for Jimmy to, ahem, slip back into his old ways.

He didn't scam the old folks. He may start now. He was drafting wills for pocket money. He genuinely did spot a hustle going on and worked hard to bring it down legitimately.

noodler · 08-04-2015 9:29am

Some of you seem to be judging him based on his exploits in BB which kind of precludes any discussion of this series!

Tony EH · 08-04-2015 9:30am

FloatingVoter wrote: »

He didn't scam the old folks. He may start now. He was drafting wills for pocket money. He genuinely did spot a hustle going on and worked hard to bring it down legitimately.

I'm not saying he was actually scamming the old folks, but the situation was a get rich quick scam, where he stood to benefit hugely, regardless of the consequences.

There's obviously a softer side to Jimmy and that can be seen in some of his dealings with the OAPs.

But, he's a dodgy a as 3 Bob note.

johnpatrick81 · 08-04-2015 9:31am

Oh man................slipping Jimmy, how many more times do we have to say it. It has nothing to do with BB! Watch back the 10 episodes, there are endless clear indications of his character being flawed....wanting to CROSS THE DOUBLE YELLOW LINES! Ah jaysus I give up.

Tony EH · 08-04-2015 9:33am

Exactly.

You don't even have to watch 'Breaking Bad' to see Jimmy McGill for what he is.

That last episode was important. It showed that Jimmy is always one step away from what he came from and can always move (I won't say slip) back over the line.

That last ep could have been about anything really, but it showed Jimmy for who he really is and why he becomes who he does.

Clareman · 08-04-2015 9:42am

James McGill went from being a con-artist living under the shadow of his brother, that shadow got even darker once he took a dump into a car with 2 kids in it (any one else find that very very funny by the way???), he tried to better himself a whole lot in the hope of getting the approval of his brother, once he found out his brother was never going to approve of him he was at a cross road, 1 was to go back to his old ways (he tried that and didn't like it), 1 was to go his brothers way (partner in a big firm) and the other was to go his own way, he chose his own way and so the trip to the dark side has begun

dark crystal · 08-04-2015 9:44am

johnpatrick81 wrote: »

I don't get why people are having such difficulty understanding the path he took.

First, yes, the slipping Jimmy, not just cos of Chuck, but cos of who he is. We have seen it from the word go. He's hardly straight laced! This last episode just nailed it home, his lil week with Marco reliving the GOOD TIMES!

Secondly, he is not throwing all that hard work away. He is merely combining it with his other lifestyle. We all know he goes on to be Saul, so he utilizes the law stuff and ties it in with his shady side.

Finally, it's like he has walked away from a billion dollar fee the way some of you are reacting. He had a possible job with this other firm, there was still loads of work ahead of him to even get the job, brown nosing, etc. It was not a done deal.

I didn't think it could be any clearer and much more obvious. Were we all watching the same 10 episodes?

See, the part I've bolded is what I didn't get. Sure, it was fun while he was doing it (getting it out of his system, as Kim put it), but after a week, he was still sleeping on Marco's floor in his crappy apartment and he didn't seem any happier at all. He checked his messages and wanted to return to his life as a lawyer because he was good at it. His clients loved him and according to Kim's phone call, he had a real shot at making partner at the new law firm. Not only would that be validation that everything Chuck said was bull****, but it would have made him a wealthy man without all the ducking and diving. He wouldn't have been that ambulance chaser the Kettleman's accused him of being earlier in the series, but a respected lawyer - something he had been chasing all season.

I just thought the transition was completely rushed at the end, in that I didn't think his week with Marco was shown to have been enough to completely turn his ambitions around. Why was he so hurt by Chuck's betrayal if deep down he agreed with his assessment of him and his abilities? How did being Slippin' Jimmy again for that week bring him any more fulfillment?

I was watching the same 10 episode as you alright and I've thoroughly enjoyed them, but I thought the finale was clumsily handled and a disappointment after the greatness that came before it. Just my opinion.

noodler · 08-04-2015 9:45am

I have a feeling that Chuck's poorly motivated outburst has completely overshadowed what we have seen of the character to this point.

If "cos he's slippin Jimmy" is the answer to why he turned down the excellent prospect of a parntership in a law firm, which he has worked tirelessly for years to acheive, then there is an issue there for me in terms of writing.

For every morally questionable thing he has done, we have years of working in a mail room whilst studying law and passing the bar before doing public defender cases and elder law.

Put it this way, would Jimmy have turned down the partnership at HMM if Chuck hadn't been so against it? Do you think "cos he's slippin Jimmy" would have made him turn it down? I don't think so and it makes him turning down the other one difficult to get my head around.

johnpatrick81 · 08-04-2015 9:50am

Holy sheeeeeeeeeeet. Forget about Chuck and the new law firm job POSSIBILITY for a sec will ye. And focus on all Jimmy's stunts. The skateboard brothers, the deal with Tuco's buddy, the fake billboard save, the deal with the Kettermans, using Mike, this is just off the top of my head. Then we have all the other stories like him taking a sheeeeeeeeeeeeeet in a sunroof, him trying to make a buck out of old people, trying to get out of paying car park fees, robbing cucumber water, etc etc etc. He doesn't want a straight office lawyer job!!! He wants to be Saul!! Chuck was actually his only chance of going straight but once he lost his faith he became Saul.

johnpatrick81 · 08-04-2015 9:52am

Oh my god. Oh my. I'm out.

noodler · 08-04-2015 9:55am

johnpatrick81 wrote: »

Oh my god. Oh my. I'm out.

I'll miss your reasoned points regarding "cos he's Slippin Jimmy" and calls to disregard huge swaths of the plot!

08-04-2015 9:55am

noodler wrote: »

But 'Deep down' he worked his ass off to get a degree, pass the bar, work in elder law, discover the class action suit etc - Very difficult to argue he has no interest in the position deep down.

We are supposed to believe that Chuck's betrayal has pushed him over the edge but it seems confusing that he has a chance of everything he worked so hard for with the rival firm and is bottling it.

He did all of those things because he thought it would gain Chuck's affection. He stopped the conman life for his brother. Then once he realized that even after all Jimmy did, Chuck still looked down on him! It shattered his everything, his world.

I think that's why the bingo scene was important - everything he was doing was for his brother, but the realisation dawned, so he went back to his previous life, which he did for himself and not for anyone else and made him happy.

Tony EH · 08-04-2015 9:57am

noodler wrote: »

I have a feeling that Chuck's poorly motivated outburst has completely overshadowed what we have seen of the character to this point.

If "cos he's slippin Jimmy" is the answer to why he turned down the excellent prospect of a parntership in a law firm, which he has worked tirelessly for years to acheive, then there is an issue there for me in terms of writing.

For every morally questionable thing he has done, we have years of working in a mail room whilst studying law and passing the bar before doing public defender cases and elder law.

Put it this way, would Jimmy have turned down the partnership at HMM if Chuck hadn't been so against it? Do you think "cos he's slippin Jimmy" would have made him turn it down? I don't think so and it makes him turning down the other one difficult to get my head around.

I think you need to stop looking at Jimmy through the prism of Chuck and look at the character himself.

He ain't no saint of his own accord.

Jimmy's written as a dodgy guy. He may have charm and is not an out and out monster. But, he's still not someone who is a straight, trustworthy person.

Not by a long shot.

johnpatrick81 · 08-04-2015 9:59am

noodler wrote: »

I'll miss your reasoned points regarding "cos he's Slippin Jimmy" and calls to disregard huge swaths of the plot!

There's a difference between focus and disregard. You need to focus on the main character in the main show and the main element of his character make up which you have clearly missed somehow even though it has been hammered home for 10 episodes.

dark crystal · 08-04-2015 10:01am

Deleted User wrote: »

He did all of those things because he thought it would gain Chuck's affection. He stopped the conman life for his brother. Then once he realized that even after all Jimmy did, Chuck still looked down on him! It shattered his everything, his world.

I think that's why the bingo scene was important - everything he was doing was for his brother, but the realisation dawned, so he went back to his previous life, which he did for himself and not for anyone else and made him happy.

Did it make him happy though? I'm not sure this episode proved it did.

I understand the point that Chuck's betrayal may have changed his motivation and mindset somewhat, but why go down the path of proving Chuck right, instead of the path of proving him dead wrong? That's my main issue.

stephenl15 · 08-04-2015 10:02am

I obviously missed something along the way, but what is Jimmys relationship with Kim?

Magnate · 08-04-2015 10:03am

noodler wrote: »

If "cos he's slippin Jimmy" is the answer to why he turned down the excellent prospect of a parntership in a law firm, which he has worked tirelessly for years to acheive, then there is an issue there for me in terms of writing.

An actual lawyer addressed this on reddit and I think it explains things perfectly.

I'm seeing a lot of people complaining that Jimmy turning away from the firm offer he had doesn't make a lot of sense, but a lot of it seems to me to stem from this idea that partnership track=guaranteed to become partner and that partners at these firms are Mitt Romney rich.

Partnership-track only means that partnership is on the table, there is no guarantee. Assuming generously that instead of being brought in as a first year associate, they would put Jimmy on track with a 4th year, he would still have 4-5 years to be up for partner.

Partners at even the most profitable nationwide firms may make 7 figures but usually not mid or high 7 figures. Given that this firm is a big regional firm based out of Santa Fe, I would imagine the partners aren't getting past 1.5 million/year if even that much.

Compare to this to what Saul Goodman makes. Even being conservative, we see him rake in 6 figures in deals made in a single day, 7 figure finders' fees, etc. Saul Goodman can make more in a day than Jimmy McGill would have made in a year at that big firm (and the fact that he walked away from 800k in the Kettlesituation made him realize as much).

At the moment where he is walking into the courthouse, Jimmy realizes that he really enjoyed his week with Marco. He likes being sleazy and skirting the law and he's damn good at it. And now he's "slippin' Jimmy with a law degree" (in Chuck's words/echoed in how surprised Marco is that slippin' Jimmy is a lawyer and not making bank).

So, his option is to take the job and work insane hours, spending 60-80+ hours/week reviewing documents, on a computer doing legal research, drafting motions, briefs etc. for low to eventually mid 6 figures and a shot at partner making maybe low 7 figures OR to embrace Slippin' Jimmy, realize pleasing Chuck is a futile task, and do the thing he really loves and enjoys for way, way more money.

Seems like a good choice to me and his time with Marco combined with the Kettlemoney (and Chuck's "slippin' Jimmy with a law degree" comment) made it a reasonable time for him to make the decision too.

I also think the offer was integral to showing that Saul Goodman was not a product of desperation, but a man realizing that he was good at being bad and that he liked it (sound familiar?) and going for it.

johnpatrick81 · 08-04-2015 10:05am

Dark crystal, I see what you are saying. But it is just as easy to understand Jimmy foregoing that opportunity to prove Chuck wrong as much as it is to see why he couldn't be arsed doing it and wanted to try and make a quick dishonest buck using his other skillset. It wasn't an easy decision.

dark crystal · 08-04-2015 10:10am

Well, whether we disagree on the ending or not, I just hope Chuck buys it next season. Something ironic like being killed by a falling electricity pylon or something....

groovie · 08-04-2015 10:11am

stephenl15 wrote: »

I obviously missed something along the way, but what is Jimmys relationship with Kim?

This is what 'Kim' has to say on the subject

stephenl15 · 08-04-2015 10:12am

groovie wrote: »

This is what 'Kim' has to say on the subject

Maybe I didn't miss too much after all

noodler · 08-04-2015 10:14am

noodler wrote: »

Put it this way, would Jimmy have turned down the partnership at HMM if Chuck hadn't been so against it? Do you think "cos he's slippin Jimmy" would have made him turn it down? I don't think so and it makes him turning down the other one difficult to get my head around.

So does anyone have an opinion on this specific point?

Or do you think that it wasn't the partnership he wanted as such, but to work with his borther?

Mousewar · 08-04-2015 10:46am

noodler wrote: »

So does anyone have an opinion on this specific point?

Or do you think that it wasn't the partnership he wanted as such, but to work with his borther?

Yes, he wanted his brother's approval and to work with him. Taking the other job wouldn't have achieved that so the motivation wasn't there. In the end he decided to stop trying to prove himself to his brother and to just be exactly who he wanted to be.
Also, Gilligan likes to show that people's path are of their own choosing and not forced upon them. In Breaking Bad, he creates the illusion that Walt is cooking meth out of necessity to save his family as he is dying. But that illusion is shattered by the end of the show and as early as season 2 we see the conscious decision by Walt to stay in the drug business even though it is no longer required as he has both money and his cancer is in remission ('Stay out of my territory' scene). Saul turning down this job was his equivalent moment imo. Although he has had some difficulties this decision to 'become' Saul wasn't forced on him - he chooses it freely.

squonk · 08-04-2015 10:47am

I found the episode a bit jarring also. I could see the point of going back and reuniting with Marco as a way of getting things out of Jimmy's system. Marco's death was a bit ham fisted.

The quote from the lawyer above was intersting. I found it quite jarring that he just walked away from the legitimate job. He seems to be obsessed with working with Chuck and maybe when push came to shove he realised he didn't want to be legitimate unless Chuck was mentoring him and he'd not be in contact with him in the Santa Fe firm. Maybe it just held out no interest anymore. I think now I realise he figured out what he was good at and realised that was the better direction for him to take. He's in the position that he'll never work with Chuck because Chuck doesn't want that.

I thought Rhea Seehorn was excellent this week. She had a small scene but, for me, it made Jimmy's walking away more poignant. There was just a piece at the end of her call where she smiled that showed that she was just delighted with the outcome and that Jimmy had finally gotten what he deserved and that she was looking forward so much to seeing how things would work out for him. Because of that I hated Jimmy for having second thoughts. Poor Kim!

In the end it didn't feel like a finalé. The show needed a few more episodes perhaps. I'm looking forward to Season 2 but I wish I'd gotten just a little more of Season 1

Tony EH · 08-04-2015 10:55am

Mousewar wrote: »

Yes, he wanted his brother's approval and to work with him. Taking the other job wouldn't have achieved that so the motivation wasn't there. In the end he decided to stop trying to prove himself to his brother and to just be exactly who he wanted to be.
Also, Gilligan likes to show that people's path are of their own choosing and not forced upon them. In Breaking Bad, he creates the illusion that Walt is cooking meth out of necessity to save his family as he is dying. But that illusion is shattered by the end of the show and as early as season 2 we see the conscious decision by Walt to stay in the drug business even though it is no longer required as he has both money and his cancer is in remission ('Stay out of my territory' scene). Saul turning down this job was his equivalent moment imo. Although he has had some difficulties this decision to 'become' Saul wasn't forced on him - he chooses it freely.

Bingo.

And JUST like Walter White, we will see people trying to make all sorts of justifications for Jimmy/Saul's actions over the course of the show, despite the fact that the script clearly paints and will continue to paint him is a relatively bad light.

Better Call Saul ***Spoilers***

Comments

Better Call Saul Spoilers