Better Call Saul ***Spoilers***

Tarzana2

dark crystal wrote: »

See, the part I've bolded is what I didn't get. Sure, it was fun while he was doing it (getting it out of his system, as Kim put it), but after a week, he was still sleeping on Marco's floor in his crappy apartment and he didn't seem any happier at all. He checked his messages and wanted to return to his life as a lawyer because he was good at it. His clients loved him and according to Kim's phone call, he had a real shot at making partner at the new law firm. Not only would that be validation that everything Chuck said was bull****, but it would have made him a wealthy man without all the ducking and diving. He wouldn't have been that ambulance chaser the Kettleman's accused him of being earlier in the series, but a respected lawyer - something he had been chasing all season.

I just thought the transition was completely rushed at the end, in that I didn't think his week with Marco was shown to have been enough to completely turn his ambitions around. Why was he so hurt by Chuck's betrayal if deep down he agreed with his assessment of him and his abilities? How did being Slippin' Jimmy again for that week bring him any more fulfillment?

I was watching the same 10 episode as you alright and I've thoroughly enjoyed them, but I thought the finale was clumsily handled and a disappointment after the greatness that came before it. Just my opinion.

noodler wrote: »

I have a feeling that Chuck's poorly motivated outburst has completely overshadowed what we have seen of the character to this point.

If "cos he's slippin Jimmy" is the answer to why he turned down the excellent prospect of a parntership in a law firm, which he has worked tirelessly for years to acheive, then there is an issue there for me in terms of writing.

For every morally questionable thing he has done, we have years of working in a mail room whilst studying law and passing the bar before doing public defender cases and elder law.

Put it this way, would Jimmy have turned down the partnership at HMM if Chuck hadn't been so against it? Do you think "cos he's slippin Jimmy" would have made him turn it down? I don't think so and it makes him turning down the other one difficult to get my head around.

I have to agree, this episode was poorly written.

If they wanted to convince me that he was enticed back to his old ways by his sojourn in this week's episode, they failed.

Nothing in what happened in the episode seemed compelling enough to make it believable.

Hated the coin hustle scene too. Yawn. And Marco's death was really cheesy, as mentioned earlier.

A poor episode.

noodler

Tarzana2 wrote: »

I have to agree, this episode was poorly written.

If they wanted to convince me that he was enticed back to his old ways by his sojourn in this week's episode, they failed.

Nothing in what happened in the episode seemed compelling enough to make it believable.

Hated the coin hustle scene too. Yawn. And Marco's death was really cheesy, as mentioned earlier.

A poor episode.

Glad its not just me.

DoYouEvenLift

Finished this over the last few days. Great first season, obviously not on the same level as BB, yet, but I can see some excellent characters and scenarios being introduced during future seasons. I seriously love the creators abilities to blend subtle humour into their shows so well.

johnpatrick81

"If you build it, I will come" :pac:

Great first season with a slightly underwhelming finale. That Kevin Costner bit though, brilliant! I want to be like Jimmy when I grow up

Greyjoy

noodler wrote: »

They wanted him though, he'd be working on the case he brought. There was every chance he would get it.

What exactly is he giving it up for? He has absolutely nothing on the side apart from the Elder Law business. If there was a shady mobster on the sidelines offering 100,000 a year then I would understand the confliction but as it is, he is using throwing away 800k as justification for throwing away the job he has worked so hard for.

Yeah, there needed to be a concrete choice in order to lure Jimmy away from the position in the other law firm. Something that would cause a genuine crisis of conscience other than him thinking "hey I could potentially make a lot of money if I take dodgy clients". Even something as simple as jimmy getting a call about a new case from Nacho, Tuco's henchman, as he pulls into the parking lot.

On a side note my opinion of Hamlin has mellowed a little bit. I liked the scene with him & jimmy as it made Hamlin a little bit less of an asshole.

I think that Jimmy's decision at the end is down to one thing and one thing only, if he takes the partnership position then he's no longer his own man. The appeal of working with Chuck was the Jimmy would finally have proven himself in his brother's eyes and when he realised just how evil his brother was Jimmy realised that working the way he does offers a freedom that no other firm does. I don't think it's about the money so much as it is about Jimmy deciding not to suppress the real him. He's a con man at heart and the finale did a great job of demonstrating that, the early episodes where he practiced his routine in the mirror were not nerves but rather Jimmy adapting his street smarts to a more civilized arena.

jcsoulinger

Don't really get the argument here about why Jimmy didn't take the new offer, He was sick of pretending to be something he wasn't, Its that simple. He has struggled with it through the whole series. Even if chuck had let him work at HHM he would have still come to this realisation eventually. Chuck may have been a dick but he was right about Jimmy.

Over all very poor final episode. The montage with the scams was the worst part and then ya find out only a week had passed, Really bad considering how good they usually are.

folamh

noodler wrote: »

Why he would turn down the chance of a partnership is a little bewildering to me. Okay, so he regrets not keeping the money, but why on earth turn down such a position as a result? Its not like he has a readymade mob family, with better pay, to work for right now?

Because he's tired of playing by everyone's rules for years trying to win his brother's respect, only to have that blow up in his face. Turning down the job marks his self-acceptance as Slippin' Jimmy/Saul.

folamh

noodler wrote: »

We are supposed to believe that Chuck's betrayal has pushed him over the edge but it seems confusing that he has a chance of everything he worked so hard for with the rival firm and is bottling it.

Well, it was an extreme revelation which went against everything he had previously believed. His image of his brother is shattered, and that corresponds with his image of the establishment. It naturally affects a dramatic change of character and behavior in him, as seen first when he snaps in the bingo hall.

Cantstandsya

I thought this episode was fairly weak. From what I've read it was the directorial debut of Peter Gould, the co-creator, and it showed. It was far less coherent than what came before, which was a shame.

I think Jimmy not taking the position makes sense. He was trying to prove to Chuck and himself that he wasn't just Slippin' Jimmy. When Chuck revealed that he didn't think he'd ever change he escaped back to being Slippin' Jimmy to see if Chuck was right...

I think after his week with Marco he'd decided that Chuck was wrong, that he actually wanted to be that lawyer who his clients were reaching out to in his phone messages. He was ready to back to work and to give up Slippin' Jimmy again... until Marco confessed that their week together had been the best of his life, I think in that moment Jimmy realised that what he'd been looking for from Chuck by playing the part of the good lawyer had been there all along in Slippin' Jimmy's world via his friendship with Marco. At the end Jimmy decides to be true to who he really is, to be true to the man Marco adored.

folamh

noodler wrote: »

It would be as easy to say that he is a reformed character whose betrayal by his brother ultimately knocked him back into a a shady life.

A recent review made the point that Saul is like the inverse of Walt. Walt is a bad character who only seems to lead a good/moral life, whereas Saul is a good character (indeed, a "goodman") who seems to lead a bad life. I can't remember which publication I read that in.

squonk

jcsoulinger wrote: »

Over all very poor final episode. The montage with the scams was the worst part and then ya find out only a week had passed, Really bad considering how good they usually are.

Excellent point! I kinda did a 'What now??' at the end of the montage when it was mentioned it was only a week that had passed. It was also straight out of a 40's musical as well which is great when it's done for irony or comedic effect, like Family Guy, but it was kind of cheesy here. Personally I'd have focused on a few scams, faded to black mid scam and used a "One Week Later...." title or something.

There was also somethng a bit hackneyed on the shot before Saul goes full Saul. You know the bigwigs are in town and he's there to meet them but that shot of the grille of the Jag was just a bit heavy handed or something. It's small things like that that grated about this episode.

On the plus side though, I've already said I loved the Kim scene. It was great. Maybe that was down to the actress herself.

Cantstandsya

folamh wrote: »

A recent review made the point that Saul is like the inverse of Walt. Walt is a bad character who only seems to lead a good/moral life, whereas Saul is a good character (indeed, a "goodman") who seems to lead a bad life. I can't remember which publication I read that in.

http://www.vox.com/2015/4/7/8362853/better-call-saul-finale-recap

folamh

Yes, that was the review.

Cantstandsya

Sorry, had just read it myself so thought I'd slap up the link incase anyone wanted a read.

the_monkey

Great ending, setting season 2 up with Saul and Mike ... when is it coming back ?

2016 ? or can we hope for this Autumn ?

bren2001

the_monkey wrote: »

Great ending, setting season 2 up with Saul and Mike ... when is it coming back ?

2016 ? or can we hope for this Autumn ?

Production July and around the same time next year is what Kelly Dixon tweeted.

Muff Richardson

what would Saul stand to gain from the 20% of the $20m figure that chuck mentioned? As in Im guessing it would be nowhere near $4m...after compensation, costs etc would it turn out to be a fairly meagre amount overall?

that crappy montage of Jimmy and the fat lad pulling scams gave me serious flashbacks of a similar scene in some film I can't put my finger on. thought the last episode was brutal in comparison to the rest of the series. there was no sense of a finale whatsoever.

Mars Bar

Muff Richardson wrote: »

that crappy montage of Jimmy and the fat lad pulling scams gave me serious flashbacks of a similar scene in some film I can't put my finger on. thought the last episode was brutal in comparison to the rest of the series. there was no sense of a finale whatsoever.

Reminded me of Hackers with Jonny Lee Miller and Angelina Jolie.

DerekDGoldfish

Muff Richardson wrote: »

what would Saul stand to gain from the 20% of the $20m figure that chuck mentioned? As in Im guessing it would be nowhere near $4m...after compensation, costs etc would it turn out to be a fairly meagre amount overall?

that crappy montage of Jimmy and the fat lad pulling scams gave me serious flashbacks of a similar scene in some film I can't put my finger on. thought the last episode was brutal in comparison to the rest of the series. there was no sense of a finale whatsoever.

Well that 20 million was an estimate based on the number of places they thought sandpiper was involved in initially, HHM are working with another firm now because the number of places involved is larger than expected. So the total settlement could be more than 20m.

But even taking the 20m as a ballpark, if the legal fees ended up being €5m on this and the firm after paying for costs, staff etc made 20% partners profit on this then Jimmy would be in line for €1m in purely ball park terms.

DoYouEvenLift

We'll also get to have updates on the case as it plays out in future as well won't we? I thought that part was brilliant, how he discovered the case and it developed over a couple of episodes with his brother so I'm interested in it now. I'm going to take a guess that it doesn't play out too well or successful for Saul though given the quality of his practice in BB.


If they found one branch of old folks home doing this they could also look into others for individual cases before the original case got national coverage. That way they'd have multiple huge cases and payouts.

folamh

I presume Gustavo will play a big part in the next season. In Breaking Bad, Mike seems to be Gus' guy rather than Saul's. So BCS will have to show how that arrangement came to be.

FloatingVoter

Gus isn't a natural frontman and survives by not drawing attention to himself. Even at this early point I would imagine an ex-cop with the skills that Mike has will have come to the attention of Gus. He'd be checking to see if Mike really did leave the force, wasn't some FBI plant etc.

As for Saul having no money in BB, he runs a cheap and shoddy ambulance chasing firm as a front for what he really does. Provide laundering, brokerage, and connections for some of the most serious organised criminals in the US. His life at the high end of the criminal money spectrum did not start when Jesse walked Walt through the door. It merely started to finish.

DoYouEvenLift

folamh wrote: »

I presume Gustavo will play a big part in the next season. In Breaking Bad, Mike seems to be Gus' guy rather than Saul's. So BCS will have to show how that arrangement came to be.

Would've thought Gus would've been kept closer to the last season when they're really close to the BB timeline

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Gus isn't a natural frontman and survives by not drawing attention to himself. Even at this early point I would imagine an ex-cop with the skills that Mike has will have come to the attention of Gus. He'd be checking to see if Mike really did leave the force, wasn't some FBI plant etc.

As for Saul having no money in BB, he runs a cheap and shoddy ambulance chasing firm as a front for what he really does. Provide laundering, brokerage, and connections for some of the most serious organised criminals in the US. His life at the high end of the criminal money spectrum did not start when Jesse walked Walt through the door. It merely started to finish.

Lold hard at this, just thinking about Walt's character waking in the door and the impending doom following him.

FloatingVoter

DoYouEvenLift wrote: »

Lold hard at this, just thinking about Walt's character waking in the door and the impending doom following him.

It would have deprived us of hours of entertainment, but a lot of people would still be ticking along nicely doing business as per usual if someone had taken a baseball bat to Walt's pointy head at that point. Thanks, I'll not rewatch BB again without seeing a little black cloud over Walt's bald spot.

DoYouEvenLift

FloatingVoter wrote: »

It would have deprived us of hours of entertainment, but a lot of people would still be ticking along nicely doing business as per usual if someone had taken a baseball bat to Walt's pointy head at that point. Thanks, I'll not rewatch BB again without seeing a little black cloud over Walt's bald spot.

He's an absolutely unforgettable character, a genius creation. I wonder was he always a ticking time bomb though or was that all just due to the new criminal environment he got into that completely changed him to be how he was. Like, if he had never been diagnosed with cancer would he really have continued like normal into old age and just lived a totally regular life until he died of old age? It's just the transformation seemed to seamless and natural from a totally normal family man and teacher into an absolute nutcase, was that side of him was always there just waiting to be triggered lol. And was cancer the only thing to trigger it.


I've only watched BB once, when it was all airing, and that's it. I really want to rewatch it all but the longer I wait the better it'll be since I'll have forgotten a lot of it so hoping I can hold out until BCS is completely finished. I really want to be able to say The Wire or Game of Thrones is my favourite show but when I think about this, suddenly Breaking Bad just pops into my head like "nope"

FloatingVoter

^ Walt would have trotted into old age. A forgotten grump. That old turnip about how 10-20% of people you know are psychopaths is true. Most of them don't present openly because there isn't a war on, they're not backed into a corner. A high percentage go on to become CEOs or frustrated teachers.
As it stands, he was working two crap jobs, facing death and financial ruin. That's a corner. Having no empathy and an ego the size of a planet were his two assets alongside a twisted bent for chemistry.

Mardy Bum

noodler wrote: »

Why he would turn down the chance of a partnership is a little bewildering to me. Okay, so he regrets not keeping the money, but why on earth turn down such a position as a result? Its not like he has a readymade mob family, with better pay, to work for right now?

Because of what Marco said about their time together before the last stunt. It was the best week of his life and then he died. This didn't resonate with Jimmy until it was all set up for him to effectively become his brother. He realised this was not him he had to be his own man.

The show is about masculine identity and it is a wonderful exploration

kevohmsford

Really enjoyed the first season. Some great characters.