Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Another Company Discriminates Against Gays

2456734

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    If I owned a printing shop and was asked to print pro-life literature, you know the kind with the near term abortions on it could I refuse because of my beliefs? (I'm pretty staunchly pro-choice and pro-gay rights - but it's a fair point)

    Of course you can ........... if however you were employed by a printer and he told you to print something you disagreed with then you'd either have to print it or find another job


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    Cuban Pete wrote: »
    Except being one's own boss doesn't place one above the law.

    The printer didn't break the law ...........


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    You'd actually find that this happens more than is reported in the media, there was a prominent city center pub here in Galway that ejected two friends of ours because they shared a kiss, and in a certain restaurant gay people recieved abuse from the staff. Neither instance ever made it to a new story. And I didn't suggest businesses as a whole would discriminate, but that enough business might do so that it would impact upon people's lives.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    Refusing to print something that's involved in illegal activity (kiddie fiddling and terrorism both being that) is sliiiightly different.
    It's a valid point nonetheless. Consider a man who walks into a printing store in 1993 and asks for leaflets saying Arrest all homosexuals now! and the business refuses based on their beliefs that homosexuality is natural and should not be a criminal offense. Should the printing company have been forced to serve the customer? The guy just wanted his leaflets printed; Was he discriminated against because of his sexuality (i.e. being straight) or because of his beliefs? (which were supported by the law.) It's not as straightforward and simplistic as we might think.


  • Posts: 14,344 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Fair enough if their Christianity is important to how they conduct their business but they should make that known in their branding.


    It's painfully clear! I know not many here will have been near them, as most of ye aren't from the area, obviously, but it's 'slap you in the face' obvious that they're a religious bunch.

    Fair enough if they've been doing business with him for 4 years he should respect their decision to not deal with him on an issue they find sensitive to their beliefs.

    If I wanted gay wedding invites or posters for my upcoming swingers party made, they're the last place I'd go, because they make it clear they're a christian bunch who have strong beliefs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    it's not the individual they object to (they've done business with him for four years), it's the material they object to .......... and they are well within their rights both morally and legally to refuse to put their name/reputation to a product for whatever reason.
    It's not a public service, it's their business ........ nobody has the right to remove the printer's right to choice.

    Did they know he was gay before the wedding invites job?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    It's painfully clear! I know not many here will have been near them, as most of ye aren't from the area, obviously, but it's 'slap you in the face' obvious that they're a religious bunch.

    Fair enough if they've been doing business with him for 4 years he should respect their decision to not deal with him on an issue they find sensitive to their beliefs.

    If I wanted gay wedding invites or posters for my upcoming swingers party made, they're the last place I'd go, because they make it clear they're a christian bunch who have strong beliefs.

    How is it obvious?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    So he decided to discriminate against a gay person.
    Thus associating the business with discrimination.
    Smart person.

    Like it or not there are a lot of people in Ireland who would share his beliefs and may be prone to use his services based on this situation thus possibly creating new business opportunities for the printer ......... conversely those same people may stop using a particular printer solely because he/she prints material which they may find objectionable thus losing business for that printer ......... it works both ways.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    Dumb Printer: I wont take the job due to religious views
    Customer: OMG Discrimination!!

    Smart Printer: Don't have capacity, try the printer across town
    Customer: ok thanks see ya


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Did they know he was gay before the wedding invites job?

    Dunno how often would it come up in conversation in your day to day dealings with customers ? Unless the business in Llandewi Breffi.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    I always said the bakers up north were in their right to design a cake for an lgbt group if it was against their beliefs but that was because they wouldn't design the same cake for anyone. However even though these printers seemed happy to serve this customer up until now there is no reason to believe they knew he was gay and as they already print and sell wedding invitations to straight people this does seem like discrimination.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    Did they know he was gay before the wedding invites job?
    Eh, if I walked in there tomorrow and asked for the same job they'd refuse me too. Am I being discriminated against because of my sexuality (i.e. heterosexual) ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Cormac... wrote: »
    But we can be friends Links and do all sorts of Japanesey things :(

    What sort of things? Make onigiri? And katsudon?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    Did they know he was gay before the wedding invites job?

    I don't know .......... however even if the printer decides that he won't do business with homosexuals or ginger people or people from Cork then that is his right ......... why should an individual be forced to run his/her business based on your opinion?


  • Posts: 14,344 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    eviltwin wrote: »
    How is it obvious?


    For a start, when you walk in the door there's a TV displaying a cheesy, christian recruit-y type video.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    I always said the bakers up north were in their right to design a cake for an lgbt group if it was against their beliefs but that was because they wouldn't design the same cake for anyone. However even though these printers seemed happy to serve this customer up until now there is no reason to believe they knew he was gay and as they already print and sell wedding invitations to straight people this does seem like discrimination.

    It is undoubtedly discrimination (in my opinion anyway) but who are you/me/anybody to discriminate against the printer's right to choice?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    however even if the printer decides that he won't do business with homosexuals or ginger people or people from Cork then that is his right ......... why should an individual be forced to run his/her business based on your opinion?

    Rights are a legal thing, decided by lawmakers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    For a start, when you walk in the door there's a TV displaying a cheesy, christian recruit-y type video.

    Seriously? I can't stand religious types who have to drag it into their professional arena.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    It is undoubtedly discrimination (in my opinion anyway) but who are you/me/anybody to discriminate against the printer's right to choice?

    We have anti-discrimination laws. We are not discriminating against the printer because we don't allow anyone to discriminate (well in theory we don't with unfair exceptions for the Catholic church and the publicans but that's another issue).


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    Rights are a legal thing, decided by lawmakers.

    Exactly .......... and those same legal rights apply to the printer in question ........ keep in mind that he didn't actually do anything illegal by refusing to print what he found to be questionable material.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,068 ✭✭✭Specialun


    Im surprised this story is getting somuch attension

    I listened to niall boylan last night where it all began

    Alot of the posters here and online sites are forgetting alot of key information

    First of all the printers didnt just go "ah here you like man, fook off" and the guy ran out of the shop crying

    The business was declined not because of the guy being gay, it was because the owners are against gay marraige/civil partnerships because of their strong religeos beliefs

    The owner of the printing company was very respectful imo. He called to the salon, asked to speak to the guy in private. This was declined and the owner had to give his reason s infront of clients on the shop floor...

    The guy in question imo ismilking the living sh!te out of it


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    Specialun wrote: »
    Im surprised this story is getting somuch attension

    I listened to niall boylan last night where it all began

    Alot of the posters here and online sites are forgetting alot of key information

    First of all the printers didnt just go "ah here you like man, fook off" and the guy ran out of the shop crying

    The business was declined not because of the guy being gay, it was because the owners are against gay marraige/civil partnerships because of their strong religeos beliefs

    The owner of the printing company was very respectful imo. He called to the salon, asked to speak to the guy in private. This was declined and the owner had to give his reason s infront of clients on the shop floor...

    The guy in question imo ismilking the living sh!te out of it


    SSssshsh with the facts, the free stuff is rolling in


  • Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭BetterThanThou


    As a gay man, I can say I'm not really bothered by this. If people want to exercise their religious views, so be it. I just won't give him any of my business, nor would I associate myself with someone with such beliefs. I'm totally accepting of someone exercising their beliefs, whether I agree with it or not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    K4t wrote: »
    Ideally, what would happen here is that people (gay and non-gay) would boycott the store, forcing the storeowners to change their policy (and hopefully ridiculous religious views), or to go out of business.

    Thought you were all for free speech and that?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,446 ✭✭✭Cody montana


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    Like it or not there are a lot of people in Ireland who would share his beliefs and may be prone to use his services based on this situation thus possibly creating new business opportunities for the printer ......... conversely those same people may stop using a particular printer solely because he/she prints material which they may find objectionable thus losing business for that printer ......... it works both ways.

    Why would I like it, it's backwards and these sort of beliefs have no place in modern Ireland.
    Many things that were once accepted as being right are now considered wrong.

    Hopefully this place will lose business and it should be a lesson to everyone.
    Discrimination on sexuality has no place in Ireland.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Clandestine


    A shop has every right to refuse a service is they wish. Anti-discrimination legislation is a joke, and its hilarious to see all the moral crusaders on the companies Facebook page going off the deep end at them. If only they were this concerned over, you know, actual issues that matter.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    Exactly .......... and those same legal rights apply to the printer in question ........ keep in mind that he didn't actually do anything illegal by refusing to print what he found to be questionable material.

    You may well be right about that interpretation.

    The thing is, people are confusing "rights" with "what should be rights".

    The difficulty for people like myself is wondering how to morally adjudicate on where rights collide, which they do all the time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    We have anti-discrimination laws. We are not discriminating against the printer because we don't allow anyone to discriminate (well in theory we don't with unfair exceptions for the Catholic church and the publicans but that's another issue).

    And those anti-discrimination laws don't apply in this case ......... the printer exercised his right to refuse business.

    It amazes me that people here are angry at the printer because he was honest more so than because he refused to print the material.
    If the law is changed then people like him would not change their views or policies ........ they would simply invent a reason not to do business with certain people/groups ........ so what would be the point.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Smidge


    I swear, at times I despair.
    How the hell were these people(printers)tying their shoelaces, never mind running what would seem to be a fairly successful business?
    I mean, unless they were asked to print graphic sexual images of two guys shagging, and I highly doubt that considering these were wedding invitations, what the hell kind of infringement on their religious beliefs did printing these invites really cause?
    Its seems to be bigotry for bigotrys sake.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 335 ✭✭JohnBee


    This is the usual baiting that is spouted by the "oppressed".

    It seems most people have difficulty separating the business relationship (i.e. that exists between printer and customer, in this case a gay man), and also the task at hand, printing an invitation.

    If the gay couple's wedding planner (who for argument's sake was a straight married man with children) came into the store and was denied the printing of the invitations, would people still view it as discrimination? Or just the business ethos.

    Similarly, if those who are pro-choice are denied printing, is that discrimination?

    The fact that this discussion even exists is a sign of the ridiculousness of the situation that exists. In fact, if we think if discrimination against gays in Ireland, it seems we are faring pretty good. We don't hear in the news of businesses refusing to serve or deal with gay people, surely a good sign that Ireland has matured in its attitudes. The fact that every business doesn't want to do what they are told (whether it is by a gay or straight person) is a separate issue, and is not necessarily a sign of discrimination.

    This man is clearly quite religious and carries that everywhere in his life. It is highly likely that he has turned down requests before that dont fit with his ethos. However, because clearly those individuals where not disadvantaged females, gay, or non-caucasion, we dont hear about it. He has not discriminated against this man as he has served him for 4 years.

    The gay community has to grow up and learn to pick the battles to chose. This ain't one of them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,420 ✭✭✭Lollipops23


    If only they were this concerned over, you know, actual issues that matter.

    So a large section of Irish society not being afforded equal rights doesn't matter? Just so I'm clear where you're coming from on this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    It's amazing how quick mob/herd mentality forms when an issue like this arises. Don't get me wrong, I don't support their stance one bit and am in no way religious but just had a look at their Facebook page their and it is being bombarded with comments including:
    These shower of uneducated rats should be shut down...homophobic scumbags

    and (on a picture of their building)
    Hope it falls down on top of them!

    People shouldn't use social media to hide behind comments they wouldn't dare say to someones face.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 156 ✭✭Cuban Pete


    A shop has every right to refuse a service is they wish. Anti-discrimination legislation is a joke, and its hilarious to see all the moral crusaders on the companies Facebook page going off the deep end at them. If only they were this concerned over, you know, actual issues that matter.

    It's okay, we already know what libertarians think on the matter.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    Not sure if it went ahead or not but there was a push to prevent discrimination against those worth convictions.

    Would anyone have issues with a business refusing someone based on this.

    If iona wanted something printed to promote a no vote on marriage equality a printer should be able to refuse, same with a venue refusing to host their events.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    pconn062 wrote: »
    It's amazing how quick mob/herd mentality forms when an issue like this arises. Don't get me wrong, I don't support their stance one bit and am in no way religious but just had a look at their Facebook page their and it is being bombarded with comments including:



    and (on a picture of their building)



    People shouldn't use social media to hide behind comments they wouldn't dare say to someones face.


    Be great someday if some journalist tracked down the people who makes comments like this and ask them to 'clarify' their remarks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    Why would I like it, it's backwards and these sort of beliefs have no place in modern Ireland.
    Many things that were once accepted as being right are now considered wrong.

    Hopefully this place will lose business and it should be a lesson to everyone.
    Discrimination on sexuality has no place in Ireland.

    Says who? You?? Thankfully we live in a country were the opinions of a few cannot force an individual to bend to the will of others.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Clandestine


    So a large section of Irish society not being afforded equal rights doesn't matter?
    What do you mean by that? This is a business refusing to make a cake for a gay couple because they don't support gay marriage, where does "equal rights" come into it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Varik wrote: »
    Not sure if it went ahead or not but there was a push to prevent discrimination against those worth convictions.

    Would anyone have issues with a business refusing someone based on this.

    If iona wanted something printed to promote a no vote on marriage equality a printer should be able to refuse, same with a venue refusing to host their events.

    I usually find it's only Discrimination when it's the right group involved.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,825 ✭✭✭Timmyctc


    Are we not having a referendum on Gay Marriage. Would it be discrimination to vote 'No'? The fact we're having a referendum means people are entitled to believe gay people deserve the right to marry and some people clearly do not. The self-employed man politely exercised his right to the latter imo and should be able to. Not that I agree with him a single iota, mind you, I'll certainly be voting yes in the referendum. I'd bet good money that he'd refuse to print pro-choice material if I asked him to do it and no one would accuse him of being anti-Donegalian :


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    You may well be right about that interpretation.

    The thing is, people are confusing "rights" with "what should be rights".

    The difficulty for people like myself is wondering how to morally adjudicate on where rights collide, which they do all the time.

    So it's a case of "that is illegal!!" .......... "no it's not" .......... "oh ......... well it should be because then the law would fall in line with my own personal opinions and beliefs" ........... thankfully the real world doesn't work like that ....... yet.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    All of that has been done, we actively boycott those establishments, friends were sharing info about what happened on facebook, TripAdvisor reviews were made, we did make our voices heard and honestly? You might be surprised how little people care. Friends will still establish the food place because hey they like it and it's convenient, we're a relatively small amount of customers. Most people just don't care enough to inconvenience themselves.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I said if businesses as a whole were allowed to get away with this kind of discrimination, eg if this "conscience clause" was made law, not that businesses as a whole would. My entire point is that it wouldn't have to be all businesses to negatively impact your life.
    Permabear wrote: »
    As I've said, that's highly unlikely, because businesses are far more interested in your money than your sex life.

    It might be unlikely, but what if you're in a smaller more conservative/religious town?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    Gays persecute Drogheda couple for religious beliefs




    you could spin it that way too


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    And those anti-discrimination laws don't apply in this case ......... the printer exercised his right to refuse business.

    It amazes me that people here are angry at the printer because he was honest more so than because he refused to print the material.
    If the law is changed then people like him would not change their views or policies ........ they would simply invent a reason not to do business with certain people/groups ........ so what would be the point.

    Honest in that he honest about the bits of the bible that suit him. Highly doubt he's following the it's that don't suit him


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    So it's a case of "that is illegal!!" .......... "no it's not" .......... "oh ......... well it should be because then the law would fall in line with my own personal opinions and beliefs" ........... thankfully the real world doesn't work like that ....... yet.

    It is exactly how the real world works.

    On discussion threads, even more so.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,446 ✭✭✭Cody montana


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    Says who? You?? Thankfully we live in a country were the opinions of a few cannot force an individual to bend to the will of others.

    Is it discrimination, yes or no?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Links234 wrote: »
    All of that has been done, we actively boycott those establishments, friends were sharing info about what happened on facebook, TripAdvisor reviews were made, we did make our voices heard and honestly? You might be surprised how little people care. Friends will still establish the food place because hey they like it and it's convenient, we're a relatively small amount of customers. Most people just don't care enough to inconvenience themselves.



    I said if businesses as a whole were allowed to get away with this kind of discrimination, eg if this "conscience clause" was made law, not that businesses as a whole would. My entire point is that it wouldn't have to be all businesses to negatively impact your life. It might be unlikely, but what if you're in a smaller more conservative/religious town?

    Would being gay for example come up in general conversation when buying a paper or paying for petrol ? Moving goal post to generate a perfect storm of events to make out this is General practice in Ireland is Fascicle. It only comes up in a very small number of cases. I don't agree with the Discrimination but trying to make it up where it is not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Links234 wrote: »
    My entire point is that it wouldn't have to be all businesses to negatively impact your life.

    This point is generally lost in the mix, and it's worth restating. It's not the fact that, say, 99.99% will offer service, nor is it the fact that 0.01% will refuse service - everyone can live with that.

    It's the fact that 100% are legally entitled to refuse service.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    So a large section of Irish society not being afforded equal rights doesn't matter? Just so I'm clear where you're coming from on this.

    Large section ......... thought they were still considered a minority?

    Here's a little known fact ......... the majority of Irish people discriminate against homosexuals albeit mostly passively (jokes for example) and that is unlikely to change any time soon ........ the only change in "Modern Ireland" in recent years is political correctness.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,136 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    mikemac1 wrote: »
    Dumb Printer: I wont take the job due to religious views
    Customer: OMG Discrimination!!

    Smart Printer: Don't have capacity, try the printer across town
    Customer: ok thanks see ya

    In a free society people shouldn't have to hide their beliefs.


  • Advertisement
This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement