Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Another Company Discriminates Against Gays

Options
12467…57

Comments

  • Options
    #92
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    You may well be right about that interpretation.

    The thing is, people are confusing "rights" with "what should be rights".

    The difficulty for people like myself is wondering how to morally adjudicate on where rights collide, which they do all the time.

    So it's a case of "that is illegal!!" .......... "no it's not" .......... "oh ......... well it should be because then the law would fall in line with my own personal opinions and beliefs" ........... thankfully the real world doesn't work like that ....... yet.


  • Options
    #93
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    All of that has been done, we actively boycott those establishments, friends were sharing info about what happened on facebook, TripAdvisor reviews were made, we did make our voices heard and honestly? You might be surprised how little people care. Friends will still establish the food place because hey they like it and it's convenient, we're a relatively small amount of customers. Most people just don't care enough to inconvenience themselves.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I said if businesses as a whole were allowed to get away with this kind of discrimination, eg if this "conscience clause" was made law, not that businesses as a whole would. My entire point is that it wouldn't have to be all businesses to negatively impact your life.
    Permabear wrote: »
    As I've said, that's highly unlikely, because businesses are far more interested in your money than your sex life.

    It might be unlikely, but what if you're in a smaller more conservative/religious town?


  • Options
    #94
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    Gays persecute Drogheda couple for religious beliefs




    you could spin it that way too


  • Options
    #95
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    And those anti-discrimination laws don't apply in this case ......... the printer exercised his right to refuse business.

    It amazes me that people here are angry at the printer because he was honest more so than because he refused to print the material.
    If the law is changed then people like him would not change their views or policies ........ they would simply invent a reason not to do business with certain people/groups ........ so what would be the point.

    Honest in that he honest about the bits of the bible that suit him. Highly doubt he's following the it's that don't suit him


  • Options
    #96
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    So it's a case of "that is illegal!!" .......... "no it's not" .......... "oh ......... well it should be because then the law would fall in line with my own personal opinions and beliefs" ........... thankfully the real world doesn't work like that ....... yet.

    It is exactly how the real world works.

    On discussion threads, even more so.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #97
    Cody montana
    Registered Users Posts: 5,259 ✭✭✭Cody montana


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    Says who? You?? Thankfully we live in a country were the opinions of a few cannot force an individual to bend to the will of others.

    Is it discrimination, yes or no?


  • Options
    #98
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Links234 wrote: »
    All of that has been done, we actively boycott those establishments, friends were sharing info about what happened on facebook, TripAdvisor reviews were made, we did make our voices heard and honestly? You might be surprised how little people care. Friends will still establish the food place because hey they like it and it's convenient, we're a relatively small amount of customers. Most people just don't care enough to inconvenience themselves.



    I said if businesses as a whole were allowed to get away with this kind of discrimination, eg if this "conscience clause" was made law, not that businesses as a whole would. My entire point is that it wouldn't have to be all businesses to negatively impact your life. It might be unlikely, but what if you're in a smaller more conservative/religious town?

    Would being gay for example come up in general conversation when buying a paper or paying for petrol ? Moving goal post to generate a perfect storm of events to make out this is General practice in Ireland is Fascicle. It only comes up in a very small number of cases. I don't agree with the Discrimination but trying to make it up where it is not.


  • Options
    #99
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Links234 wrote: »
    My entire point is that it wouldn't have to be all businesses to negatively impact your life.

    This point is generally lost in the mix, and it's worth restating. It's not the fact that, say, 99.99% will offer service, nor is it the fact that 0.01% will refuse service - everyone can live with that.

    It's the fact that 100% are legally entitled to refuse service.


  • Options
    #100
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    Lollipops23 wrote: »
    So a large section of Irish society not being afforded equal rights doesn't matter? Just so I'm clear where you're coming from on this.

    Large section ......... thought they were still considered a minority?

    Here's a little known fact ......... the majority of Irish people discriminate against homosexuals albeit mostly passively (jokes for example) and that is unlikely to change any time soon ........ the only change in "Modern Ireland" in recent years is political correctness.


  • Options
    #101
    Ben D Bus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,117 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    mikemac1 wrote: »
    Dumb Printer: I wont take the job due to religious views
    Customer: OMG Discrimination!!

    Smart Printer: Don't have capacity, try the printer across town
    Customer: ok thanks see ya

    In a free society people shouldn't have to hide their beliefs.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #102
    Magico Gonzalez
    Registered Users Posts: 2,328 ✭✭✭Magico Gonzalez


    The non-entity known as "the market" doesn't really include the people 99% who disagree with discrimination (not offering a service based on sexuality is discrimnation, doesn't matter which services were offered previously) but will never avail of the services of that shop.

    If there enough people to sustain a cofee shop that donated all proceeds to the KKK is that OK because those nutters get to label themselves as "the market", the all knowing, self correcting, illusive non-entity yet to be seen in action?

    It's incumbent on the majority to protect the minority rights in my view. Of course a fair and inclusive society should hold this as an important ideal. One of those rights ought to be access to the same services as any other person.

    Would you be OK if these were extreme Free Presbyterian's in Ballymena who refused to send out a confirmation card because they were against the Catholic church? Say they had made some birthday invites but felt they had to draw the line at confirmation as it contravened their own nutty faith?

    The shadowy euphemism "the market" is, quite frankly, a bit of an @rsehole.


  • Options
    #103
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Didn't the printer guy turn up at yer mans work and start spouting off about it? Embarrassing him at his workplace?
    Bang out of order.


  • Options
    #104
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    Clandestine wrote: »
    A shop has every right to refuse a service is they wish. Anti-discrimination legislation is a joke, and its hilarious to see all the moral crusaders on the companies Facebook page going off the deep end at them. If only they were this concerned over, you know, actual issues that matter.

    Ok. Let's say they have the right to refuse. Do the couple have the right to publicise the refusal and do people who are not gay but who see the printers views as bigoted have a right to know their views and take their business elsewhere?


  • Options
    #105
    Clandestine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Clandestine


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    Do the couple have the right to publicise the refusal and do people who are not gay but who see the printers views as bigoted have a right to know their views and take their business elsewhere?
    Sure


  • Options
    #106
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    Do the couple have the right to publicise the refusal and do people who are not gay but who see the printers views as bigoted have a right to know their views and take their business elsewhere?

    That's pretty much the way things are at present.


  • Options
    #107
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    Thought you were all for free speech and that?
    I am; freedom to disagree with those I do not agree with, but not by forcing my beliefs on them, like the Catholic church and many followers such as yourself have no qualms about doing.


  • Options
    #108
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    I know I will get slated, But No one has the right to have a business do work for them. Both parties enter into a contract so if either do not want to. This needs to be put into the discrimination legislation. As at the moment it's not Illegal. But it's hard to prove anyway in a lot of cases the shop may just refuse to serve a black or gay or other Religion Its up to the aggrieved party to prove intent. On a side note if it was the In Religion at the moment refusing on Beliefs most people would be on going “As is Their Right” and all that.
    K4t wrote: »
    Ideally, what would happen here is that people (gay and non-gay) would boycott the store, forcing the storeowners to change their policy (and hopefully ridiculous religious views), or to go out of business.


    Yeah I agree with this.

    I also don't think I would like to do business with a place that said "i don't want to serve you but by law I'm obliged to" if I had any other alternative

    If they don't want to make a gay marriage cake/flyers/posters/anything, I don't think they should have to.
    And if a gay couple run a bakery and don't want to make an anti gay marriage cake (flyers/posters/etc), I don't think they should have to do that either.


  • Options
    #109
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    And just so I'm clear, of course this should cut both ways. If I owned my own business, maybe I open a little ramen bar (;)) and someone I don't like walks in, lets say John Waters pops in and wants a bite to eat, he'll get served no fuss.


  • Options
    #110
    arayess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭arayess


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Seriously? I can't stand religious types who have to drag it into their professional arena.

    Aren't you brilliant


  • Options
    #111
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    It is exactly how the real world works.

    On discussion threads, even more so.

    That is not how the real world works ...... laws are usually implemented to match the opinions of the majority not the minority ......... this thread alone shows that opinions are 50/50 on this situation.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #112
    stimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 7,817 ✭✭✭stimpson


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    So it's a case of "that is illegal!!" .......... "no it's not" .......... "oh ......... well it should be because then the law would fall in line with my own personal opinions and beliefs" ........... thankfully the real world doesn't work like that ....... yet.

    You really haven't a clue, have you?

    From http://www.equality.ie/en/Information/Equal-Status/
    The Equal Status Act 2000 came into force on the 25th October 2000.
    It was amended by the Equality Act 2004 on the 19th July 2004.
    The Acts relate to discrimination based on the following 9 grounds: Gender, Civil Status, Family Status, Age, Race, Religion, Disability, Sexual Orientation, Membership of the Traveller community.
    The Acts apply to people who:
    Buy and sell a wide variety of goods    ,
    Use or provide a wide range of services,
    Obtain or dispose of accommodation,
    Attend at, or are in charge of, educational establishments,
    There are separate provisions on discriminatory clubs.
    However all complaints must relate to at least one of the 9 discriminatory grounds listed in the previous point.

    The shop is in beach of the legislation as they have discriminated based on Sexual Orientation. It's not that difficult to understand.


  • Options
    #113
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    Clandestine wrote: »
    Sure

    Cool. I could live with that. Maybe the printers should put up a sign saying no gay wedding invitations printed here. So at least they aren't hiding their bigotry from the general public. I'm pretty sure we don't actually need discrimination laws in this area as society will take care of bigots through refusing to do business with them.


  • Options
    #114
    Magico Gonzalez
    Registered Users Posts: 2,328 ✭✭✭Magico Gonzalez


    Specialun wrote: »
    Im surprised this story is getting somuch attension

    I listened to niall boylan last night where it all began

    Alot of the posters here and online sites are forgetting alot of key information

    First of all the printers didnt just go "ah here you like man, fook off" and the guy ran out of the shop crying

    The business was declined not because of the guy being gay, it was because the owners are against gay marraige/civil partnerships because of their strong religeos beliefs

    The owner of the printing company was very respectful imo. He called to the salon, asked to speak to the guy in private. This was declined and the owner had to give his reason s infront of clients on the shop floor...

    The guy in question imo ismilking the living sh!te out of it

    Ah, so long as he was discrimating against them in private and quietly, that's OK?

    Uppity gays, causing a scene? Is that it?

    Sorry. His religious beliefs are discriminatory.


  • Options
    #115
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Links234 wrote: »
    And just so I'm clear, of course this should cut both ways. If I owned my own business, maybe I open a little ramen bar (;)) and someone I don't like walks in, lets say John Waters pops in and wants a bite to eat, he'll get served no fuss.

    This is the best suggestion on the thread.

    Piping hot, under ten Euro (including an Asahi beer), surcharge for skullets.


  • Options
    #116
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Links234 wrote: »
    And just so I'm clear, of course this should cut both ways. If I owned my own business, maybe I open a little ramen bar (;)) and someone I don't like walks in, lets say John Waters pops in and wants a bite to eat, he'll get served no fuss.

    I think that should be your choice really.
    If john waters published yet another article on how much he hates gay people then walks into a gay people run shop I don't think they should be obliged to serve him


  • Options
    #117
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    It's sad that people would listen to the imaginary man living in the clouds. Have they always had these delusions? Other than that, a business that can afford to turn down work must be doing very well indeed, nice if you can pick and choose according to the voice in your head. As for people saying "he can accept or refuse anyone he likes", well, if he is such a precious little flower, he shouldn't be in business. Business is about funny little metal discs and printed sheets of paper called money, they are the reason most of us do anything, but I suppose mentally Ill people should also be allowed to run businesses.
    Tell you what, I'll open a printers and will refuse anyone who wants anything religious printed, citing my own paganism as an excuse. See how that flies...
    Now wait for the roar of the gombeens.


  • Options
    #118
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    stimpson wrote: »
    You really haven't a clue, have you?
    He has made the most sense of anyone in this thread, so I'd be worried if he didn't have a clue. As I said earlier, if I walked into that shop tomorrow and asked for the same service, I'd probably be refused too; that does not mean I'm being discriminated against because of my sexuality (i.e. straight)


  • Options
    #119
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    Cody montana wrote: »
    Is it discrimination, yes or no?

    Read my posts, I've already stated that I believe it is ......... but that's only in my own personal opinion.

    However another poster made a relevant point here ......... if a heterosexual married man with children born in wedlock asked this printer to print the material then in all likelihood the printer would still have refused to print the invitations ....... so the printer not be discriminating against the individual (gay or straight) but rather the material itself ......... can one discriminate against inanimate objects?


  • Options
    #120
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    That is not how the real world works ...... laws are usually implemented to match the opinions of the majority not the minority

    :pac:

    Back to the jurisprudence kennels with ya, MadDog.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #121
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    I was refused entry from the Gay sauna in Dublin on the basis of my sex.



    Opps I forgot, discrimination by some groups is celebrated


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement