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Police Shoot and Kill Homeless Man

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    threeball wrote: »
    Common sense isn't a strong suit with many mentally ill people and if you're dealing with homeless people you'll be dealing with a lot of mental illness.

    You're no less dead after being shot by someone mentally ill than someone that isn't.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7 Shabadont


    You're no less dead after being shot by someone mentally ill than someone that isn't.

    Yeah - but the cops brought the guns to the scene that represented the threat to them. So there's that.

    Plus cops around the world deal with crazy folks without the need for guns.


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Since there seems to be little or no chance of cops ever getting charged with manslaughter in the US, this sort of action will only increase in the future.

    It's the norm. Cops in Alabama broke an old Indian man's back and only for the outrage expressed by the government of India and it's people resulted in an apology from the governor. The cop still pleaded not guilty:

    http://edition.cnn.com/2015/02/17/us/alabama-police-assault-case/


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    Yep.

    Congratulations, .. or something


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Just a little Samba


    How could he have got the gun with his hands handcuffed behind his back? Surely if the cop wasn't a total idiot he wouldn't have been unclipped while trying to restrain someone. Or better yet, surely nobody would be stupid enough to have a weapon them which could come loose while trying to restrain someone?


  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    threeball wrote: »
    Takes a whole lot more in the position he was in. Try it, lie on the ground with your hands behind your back not being able to move one without moving the other then get someone to kneel beside you and try to grab something from their hip. A object that is designed to grip in the opposite direction to the position in which your hand is positioned, then manoeuvre it into a position where you could actually pull the trigger all while having someone leaning/kneeling on you to control you.

    Shoot much?
    Doesn't matter whether he aims the gun, whether he has a proper grip on it. All he needs is one finger to pull the trigger.
    Doesn't matter where the bullet goes, its going to do damage.

    And, yes, I do shoot. Handguns.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Just a little Samba


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Shoot much?
    Doesn't matter whether he aims the gun, whether he has a proper grip on it. All he needs is one finger to pull the trigger.
    Doesn't matter where the bullet goes, its going to do damage.

    And, yes, I do shoot. Handguns.

    If the gun was clipped into the style of swivel holster than LAPD use it would have been impossible for him to pull the trigger because the trigger would have been covered.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Egginacup wrote: »
    What? In before I express disgust at yet another needless slaying at the hands of the police?

    it's the wrong country for excuses.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    I tend not to care about these things so much because it happened 6 thousand miles away.

    Ireland has been so colonised by the American culture that we think we are living there.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,780 ✭✭✭sentient_6


    While im disgusted with this, have any of the people who keep saying over and over that the man was handcuffed actually watched the video? He was swinging at the cops before they put him on the ground and only about 10 seconds pass before he's shot. He fairly fought on the ground too so I hardly think they got the cuffs on. This is an aside to the issue anyway, if four cops can't restraint him probably it just shows them for the weak gun ho pussies they are.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,570 ✭✭✭Mint Aero


    Seriously, are those footpaths just littered with homeless people and their tents. Look across the street looks like it's lined with homeless people. :confused:


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Shoot much?
    Doesn't matter whether he aims the gun, whether he has a proper grip on it. All he needs is one finger to pull the trigger.
    Doesn't matter where the bullet goes, its going to do damage.

    And, yes, I do shoot. Handguns.

    I would image that if the cops stomped on his cuffed hands and arms until they were shattered and paralysed and then repeatedly shot him until he was dead you would claim that he could have gotten his tongue onto the trigger and discharged one of the guns and that the rest of us should just stfu bacause we don't know shit about guns.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,780 ✭✭✭sentient_6


    Mint Aero wrote: »
    Seriously, are those footpaths just littered with homeless people and their tents. Look across the street looks like it's lined with homeless people. :confused:

    Ever been to the states? San Francisco and San Diego are the worst I've seen, didn't get into L.A. for barely a day to see it properly. Its horrific.


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    sentient_6 wrote: »
    Ever been to the states? San Francisco and San Diego are the worst I've seen, didn't get into L.A. for barely a day to see it probably. Its horrific.

    New York is pretty awful too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,314 ✭✭✭caustic 1


    It is very easy to sit and judge here where we can rewind and review a situation that has been videoed, however being involved I'm sure in such a volatile confrontation must be dam scary and I am sure you are on heightened guard at all times so that when things do get out of control you react in a heartbeat. Was it excessive? Perhaps. If you were in fear of your life or that of a friend then perhaps not.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,434 ✭✭✭AlanG


    Am I missing something. At what point are so many people seeing him being successfully handcuffed? It seems like an over-reaction but it's pretty hard to judge from this video.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,570 ✭✭✭Mint Aero


    sentient_6 wrote: »
    Ever been to the states? San Francisco and San Diego are the worst I've seen, didn't get into L.A. for barely a day to see it probably. Its horrific.


    No not yet. I've heard it's pretty bad alright


  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭Uncle Ruckus


    Land of the Free...yeah if you have enough money and power you are free to piss on everyone else. You know what really is ironic about Murica? They are so religious but they are unaware that the society they strive for is philsophical Satanism-i.e. material selfishness and an obsession with weapons and war. If Jesus were born in America he would be labelled a pinko hippy liberal and told to get a job.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,515 ✭✭✭Firefox11


    Mint Aero wrote: »
    Seriously, are those footpaths just littered with homeless people and their tents. Look across the street looks like it's lined with homeless people. :confused:

    Skid Row as described on the the BBC:


    Name given to a central district of Los Angeles with a large homeless population

    Estimates of district's population range from 8,000 to 11,000 people, predominantly black people, with a homeless population of about 2,500, according to the LA Chamber of Commerce

    Described by the Associated Press as a "tenuous comfort zone for many who hit the rock bottom of their lives in America"

    Homeless people tended to gravitate to the area historically as it was near a railway terminal - "the last stop on the train for the whole country", according to the Union Rescue Mission charity

    Other US cities have their own "skid rows", with the term believed to have originated in Seattle, Washington State


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,642 ✭✭✭MRnotlob606


    Why does this happen in the US ?.What is wrong with America ? I mean the US is always the first to condemn the atrocities of some other nation, but when tragedy occurs on their own door step it sort of undermines the democratic framework that the US supposedly stands for.

    Definitely excessive force used.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    yipeeeee wrote: »
    Im not trying to be callous, it's just something I think it's quite obvious.

    But he could have mental problems alright, but is a cop trained to deal with such instances, they see someone reaching for a gun or grabbing it, it's how they react.

    Every police officer should be well trained in how to deal with mental illness! Even if they arresting someone or questioning them as a suspect, they should not be talking to people in that screamy, shouty, intimidating way that is only going to serve to escalate the situation.

    If the police officers (two at the most, the rest should have remained well in the background) had gone up to the man and calmly and respectfully told him they needed to question him and the reasons why, there most likely would have been no incident at all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭RWCNT


    AlanG wrote: »
    Am I missing something. At what point are so many people seeing him being successfully handcuffed? It seems like an over-reaction but it's pretty hard to judge from this video.

    I can't make out anything in the video after the guy goes down, I'm always sketchy about what the power of suggestion can do to influence what people see in these situations.
    Caustic 1 wrote: »
    It is very easy to sit and judge here where we can rewind and review a situation that has been videoed, however being involved I'm sure in such a volatile confrontation must be dam scary and I am sure you are on heightened guard at all times so that when things do get out of control you react in a heartbeat. Was it excessive? Perhaps. If you were in fear of your life or that of a friend then perhaps not.

    Anyone can understand that but these are trained professionals who should be held to a higher standard.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,592 ✭✭✭jaykay74


    If the contention here is that in tackling a single unarmed man that a group of 5 or 6 police officers allow the unarmed man to become armed thats pretty sloppy stuff.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭eeepaulo


    The suspect the police call him, is that suspected of dying?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,293 ✭✭✭threeball


    You're no less dead after being shot by someone mentally ill than someone that isn't.

    Well done on taking half a post and removing the context


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,122 ✭✭✭BeerWolf


    Was Samuel Jackson recording that... ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,293 ✭✭✭threeball


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Shoot much?
    Doesn't matter whether he aims the gun, whether he has a proper grip on it. All he needs is one finger to pull the trigger.
    Doesn't matter where the bullet goes, its going to do damage.

    And, yes, I do shoot. Handguns.

    Next time your shooting try the manoeuvre I just described and see how you get on. not very well i'd bet. Also given that its LAPD they're probably carrying Glock 22 or Glock 17's which have a safety feature which require both the trigger safety and the trigger to be depressed simultaneously. A mere formality while being kneeled on with your hands cuffed behind you back.


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    Mint Aero wrote: »
    No not yet. I've heard it's pretty bad alright

    Go onto google maps for LA and search for skid row. Take the google streetview grand tour. It's fcuking dire.


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    One thing I notice is that the American police seem overly inclined to shoot to kill, they don't seem to consider the option to shoot to disable.

    Oh, you're going to get bombarded by replies from "experts" now who will state by wounding someone you've just transformed them from a would-be killer to a "pissed off would-be killer" or some rubbish and that a wounded guy can still pull the trigger. Better to just "finish him off".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,906 ✭✭✭Streetwalker


    Jesus just seeing this now. Very very sad that life in America has come to this. A very fractured society with what looks like a war going on between cops pumped up on steroids defending the have's against the have not's.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭Dr. Mantis Toboggan


    One thing I notice is that the American police seem overly inclined to shoot to kill, they don't seem to consider the option to shoot to disable.

    I'm not condoning shooting anyone, but i think i read somewhere that they aim at the largest target, that is the chest area/abdomen.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    Egginacup wrote: »
    What? In before I express disgust at yet another needless slaying at the hands of the police?

    Huh?
    Egginacup wrote: »
    And what does any of this have to do with you or I?

    Even if, in your fantastic imagination, Vladimir Putin killed someone, then why are you so animated about it?
    He can kill who he wants in his own country. Why are you cribbing about what happens in another country? UNLESS you think you have a right to tell how others ought to be.

    Is that the case?

    Murder is an abomination and state sanctioned murder is beyond reproach. But if you feel the onus is upon you to criticise the machinations within another person's land then surely you would have no issue with them commenting or even interfering in your land, No?

    Funny how you all of a sudden care about needless slaying.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Just a little Samba


    Egginacup wrote: »
    Oh, you're going to get bombarded by replies from "experts" now who will state by wounding someone you've just transformed them from a would-be killer to a "pissed off would-be killer" or some rubbish and that a wounded guy can still pull the trigger. Better to just "finish him off".

    The real reason is it's easier to hit a torso than it is to hit a leg or a shoulder, and even if you hit a shoulder, you're probably going to puncture a lung and kill the person you hit.

    But either way, why the feck carry a gun when apprehending an unarmed man for the love of christ?
    Take his legs out from under him with a stick and pin him down, if 4 or 5 unarmed men can't do that without ballsing it up they need to be tested for mental competency and given some training on how to do their jobs,


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,906 ✭✭✭Streetwalker


    Noxin wrote: »
    I remember I used to think I'd love to live in the states..
    The place really has gone bat $hit insane.

    Lived in NY in the 90's for several years and found it very safe although it was Manhattan and not Queens/Brooklyn etc.. That said even then it there was an obvious issue with how the NYPD treated black people and people from poorer areas compared to middle and upper class people. There was a huge fracture between the community in those poorer areas and the police department and a general lack of respect between them. Don't get me wrong im not saying they had to deal with angels all the time but they seemed to treat black people with a hoddie a lot different than a white guy in a suit.

    Anyway it seem to be getting worse and I fear it's only a matter of time before a fuse lights the anger nation wide in the US.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    I'm not condoning shooting anyone, but i think i read somewhere that they aim at the largest target, that is the chest area/abdomen.
    The real reason is it's easier to hit a torso than it is to hit a leg or a shoulder, and even if you hit a shoulder, you're probably going to puncture a lung and kill the person you hit.
    That makes sense, but is surely rendered moot when you and a bunch of your mates are standing directly over the person. Even I couldn't miss an arm or leg at point-blank range.


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    caustic 1 wrote: »
    It is very easy to sit and judge here where we can rewind and review a situation that has been videoed, however being involved I'm sure in such a volatile confrontation must be dam scary and I am sure you are on heightened guard at all times so that when things do get out of control you react in a heartbeat. Was it excessive? Perhaps. If you were in fear of your life or that of a friend then perhaps not.

    People keep banging on about cops risking their lives every minute of every day. It's bullsh1t. There are higher on-the-job death rates for farm workers, trawlermen, construction workers, than there are for cops. People seem to think everyday for these guys is worse than a Christian going into the damn Coliseum.
    These cops are completely detached from reality and that's how they're trained...to view everyone as their enemy and act with brute force at the slightest provocation or resistance to subjugation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭Dr. Mantis Toboggan


    Egginacup wrote: »
    People keep banging on about cops risking their lives every minute of every day. It's bullsh1t. There are higher on-the-job death rates for farm workers, trawlermen, construction workers, than there are for cops. People seem to think everyday for these guys is worse than a Christian going into the damn Coliseum.
    These cops are completely detached from reality and that's how they're trained...to view everyone as their enemy and act with brute force at the slightest provocation or resistance to subjugation.

    Is it just the American police you have a problem with, or is it police forces in general?


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    Huh?



    Funny how you all of a sudden care about needless slaying.

    shruikan, you completely missed the point about the Nemtsov murder. His murder was appalling as well. I wasn't condoning it. But trawl away if it makes you happy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Just a little Samba


    kylith wrote: »
    That makes sense, but is surely rendered moot when you and a bunch of your mates are standing directly over the person. Even I couldn't miss an arm or leg at point-blank range.

    I wouldn't trust the morons in the US police forces to hit a donkeys arse with a banjo, there was no need for him to have a gun on him, and if it was on him it should have been securely clipped in his holster which covers the trigger.
    The gun, a glock, also has a safe action trigger so it's not as simply as one finger on the trigger setting the gun off, you need a full grip and a considerable effort to fire the gun.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Is it just the American police you have a problem with, or is it police forces in general?

    If this didn't happen in America, Eggy wouldn't be posting here.

    The hate is strong with that kid.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,906 ✭✭✭Streetwalker


    Egginacup wrote: »
    People keep banging on about cops risking their lives every minute of every day. It's bullsh1t. There are higher on-the-job death rates for farm workers, trawlermen, construction workers, than there are for cops. People seem to think everyday for these guys is worse than a Christian going into the damn Coliseum.
    These cops are completely detached from reality and that's how they're trained...to view everyone as their enemy and act with brute force at the slightest provocation or resistance to subjugation.

    I'd argue they don't treat everyone as their enemy only those who are from poorer backgrounds. Then again im speaking from personal experience going back 10-15 years ago maybe things have changed. A side point is these guys seem to be all on steroids and hitting the gym hard every other day as they are huge. Maybe that's another reason why they are so full of anger and aggression when situations call for a calm head at times?


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    The real reason is it's easier to hit a torso than it is to hit a leg or a shoulder, and even if you hit a shoulder, you're probably going to puncture a lung and kill the person you hit.

    But either way, why the feck carry a gun when apprehending an unarmed man for the love of christ?
    Take his legs out from under him with a stick and pin him down, if 4 or 5 unarmed men can't do that without ballsing it up they need to be tested for mental competency and given some training on how to do their jobs,

    Agreed. 2 or 3 nightclub bouncers seem to be able to restrain a troublemaker until the (unarmed) Gardai arrived and take him away. I've seen just 2 bouncers in Dublin pin down a fairly large punter who was screaming abuse at them and all the while the guy's hysterical girlfriend is also screaming abuse at them.

    These 5 or 6 idiots can't restrain a homeless man so just shoot him to death.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Egginacup wrote: »
    People keep banging on about cops risking their lives every minute of every day. It's bullsh1t. There are higher on-the-job death rates for farm workers, trawlermen, construction workers, than there are for cops. People seem to think everyday for these guys is worse than a Christian going into the damn Coliseum.
    These cops are completely detached from reality and that's how they're trained...to view everyone as their enemy and act with brute force at the slightest provocation or resistance to subjugation.

    I have seen photos and footage of US police force training and it does look shockingly close to army training. IMO this is entirely the wrong tack to take; a police service shouldn't be trained to view the public as an enemy, but should be trained to work with the public. A course in negotiation and discource or something similar would be helpful to police.

    When you train your police like soldiers you have to expect them to treat the public like the enemy.


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    Is it just the American police you have a problem with, or is it police forces in general?

    My encounters with Dutch, German and British police have always been pleasant. Even on the one occasion that a cop overstepped his boundaries and I got into an argument with him, he backed off because he knew he had overreacted and his partner had a word with him.

    American cops just beat or kill you on a whim.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,293 ✭✭✭threeball


    kylith wrote: »
    I have seen photos and footage of US police force training and it does look shockingly close to army training. IMO this is entirely the wrong tack to take; a police service shouldn't be trained to view the public as an enemy, but should be trained to work with the public. A course in negotiation and discource or something similar would be helpful to police.

    When you train your police like soldiers you have to expect them to treat the public like the enemy.

    Everything in the states revolves around the military, even their sporting events are military promotional tools and its constantly hammered in to them how un-American it is not to support the actions of their military regardless of the circumstance. The cops are just a less tooled up version of your average army grunt.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭Celticfire


    threeball wrote: »
    Next time your shooting try the manoeuvre I just described and see how you get on. not very well i'd bet. Also given that its LAPD they're probably carrying Glock 22 or Glock 17's which have a safety feature which require both the trigger safety and the trigger to be depressed simultaneously. A mere formality while being kneeled on with your hands cuffed behind you back.
    The gun, a glock, also has a safe action trigger so it's not as simply as one finger on the trigger setting the gun off, you need a full grip and a considerable effort to fire the gun.

    What evidence do you have that the gun was a Glock? According to LAPD website there are many different guns carried by officers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭dbit


    Dancor wrote: »
    At 20 seconds it sounds like ''He's got my gun''


    And with 3 tazers going into this poor chap , he most likely had other things in his hands for brief moments as he jolted about the floor . Come the fook on US cops have a lot to answer for .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    threeball wrote: »
    Everything in the states revolves around the military, even their sporting events are military promotional tools and its constantly hammered in to them how un-American it is not to support the actions of their military regardless of the circumstance. The cops are just a less tooled up version of your average army grunt.

    Not even that less tooled up. Where do you think army surplus hardware goes?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Just a little Samba


    Celticfire wrote: »
    What evidence do you have that the gun was a Glock? According to LAPD website there are many different guns carried by officers.

    The Glock 17 and 22 are the most commonly used guns by police in the US, and if it was somehting else like a Smith and Wesson or a Beretta, they all have actual safetys, which makes them even less likely to discharge.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭dbit


    They are armed by the state , they should be trained to use they're weapons properly regardless of safety on, off, or not avail. Its not like this is the first tme we have seen this sh1t. Long live schwartz wasser !.


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