No contraception, no dole

myshirt · 14-01-2015 12:43am

Truly and genuinely... what the flying f#ck... is this thread a joke? Surely the bulk of you cannot be serious...

Annasopra · 14-01-2015 12:47am

Dean0088 wrote: »

Manchester, fly out Tue back Wed: €34.99 each way. So €70 euro. Say another €80 for a hotel room and €150 for the abortion (and many clinics offer discounts to people who give ROI addresses as they know the costs of travel). Throw in another €50 for a a few meals and public transport. We're talking €300 max.

Could be had for less if you come and go on the same day.

Not saying it's a solution to the problem in this thread. But abortions aren't the reserve of the rich like.

Absolute nonsense that you can get an abortion for €150.

Annasopra · 14-01-2015 12:49am

Dean0088 wrote: »

Fair enough. I have up to 9 weeks for €300 here though.

So your €300 for everything is just basically a completely bad guess

MarkAnthony · 14-01-2015 12:52am

myshirt wrote: »

Truly and genuinely... what the flying f#ck... is this thread a joke? Surely the bulk of you cannot be serious...

As has been said many times we've managed to create a leisure class, a sort of anti-aristocracy if you will in the form of an underclass. As happens with all aristocracies eventually people rise up against it.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people to have some personal responsibility. I'd support the contraception rule but I'd also have some sort of system in place where the the father was tracked down and the dole reduced for every sprog out there.

We're talking about people on the dole here for decades rather than a few months. Social welfare in this country has gotten out of hand, we can't afford to keep doing what we've been doing. The money should be going to people genuinely trying to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

CarpeDiem85 · 14-01-2015 12:55am

Huh! A €1,000
bonus for not having kids. I've heard it all now. Do you know how many kids that could feed, clothe? I definitely didn't spend €1,000 on my child last year. Maybe I should have a few more to make up the difference!!

CruelCoin · 14-01-2015 1:12am

Bambi wrote: »

Hmmm by that logic, did I pay for you to go to school? I probably paid mickey money to your ma too. Are you gonna pay that back?

I wasn't saying that australia is unique in its capacity to produce obnoxious bawbags, this wee island can turn out some fine examples

Difference being my mother worked her entire life, as did my faither. Never once unemployed, and neither have I nor any member of my family been.

The 5 kids woman i refer to in my example is obviously unemployed and staying that way.

Maybe you're fine with treating people like breeding sow's and that's why you're ok supporting it, but not for me thanks.

lmimmfn · 14-01-2015 2:13am

CarpeDiem85 wrote: »

Huh! A €1,000
bonus for not having kids. I've heard it all now. Do you know how many kids that could feed, clothe? I definitely didn't spend €1,000 on my child last year. Maybe I should have a few more to make up the difference!!

yeah its about 6 weeks creache fees or about 6-8 months worth of GP/prescriptions for a 6 month old kid.

Smidge · 14-01-2015 2:23am

kylith wrote: »

Maybe a child support cap would be better? X for the first child, Y for the second child, and nothing for subsequent children.

Of course it would be impossible to implement such a policy without either coming up with 100% reliable contraception or legalising abortion since, currently, a woman who can't get to the UK has no option but to have the baby whether she wants it or not.

For working mothers as well, I assume?

Smidge · 14-01-2015 2:28am

DoYouEvenLift wrote: »

If it was completely pain and discomfort free and 100% guaranteed reversible with instant recovery I would, but "the snip" is none of those. Can one really compare having a surgery with swallowing a pill?

LOL. you're kidding right?

Little bit about the possible side effects of the pill...................

Increased risk of cervical and breast cancers
Increased risk of heart attack and stroke
Migraines
Higher blood pressure
Gall bladder disease
Infertility
Benign liver tumors
Decreased bone density
Yeast overgrowth and infection Increased risk of blood clotting - See more at: http://bodyecology.com/articles/dangers_birth_control_pill.php#.VLXFfSusXu0

macyard · 14-01-2015 2:33am

Calina wrote: »

The idea of medicating a section of the population for economic grounds, and doing it on a gender discriminatory basis comes under the heading of totalitarianism.

Men getting dole would have to get this

www(.)dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2750650/First-male-contraceptive-injection-available-THREE-years.html

Greater chance if both parties are on contraception, they would probably use condoms too to stop STD's, condoms should be free to all on the dole atm.

I know I get the pill free due to medical card, but men cannot get free contraceptive

nxbyveromdwjpg · 14-01-2015 2:39am

CarpeDiem85 wrote: »

Huh! A €1,000
bonus for not having kids. I've heard it all now. Do you know how many kids that could feed, clothe? I definitely didn't spend €1,000 on my child last year. Maybe I should have a few more to make up the difference!!

You spent less than a grand on your child in a full year? Very hard to beleive

CarpeDiem85 · 14-01-2015 2:57am

^How is it? She eats everything I eat, I buy her clothes on sale, she's out of nappies now, I don't spoil her with expensive toys and holidays etc. I look after her myself so no creche fees. Bringing up children doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg.

Smidge · 14-01-2015 3:18am

Gatling wrote: »

This is just for a family of 2 adults and 2 kids

€32,000 per year not including child benefit and Medical cards .
The medical card in your mind doesn't cost anything but the services used do this includes gp and hospital visits

A family of 2+2 gets 19,354.80.
Very disingenuous to give the figure of €32,000 as not everyone gets RA.

Go back and use the figure of €19,354.80 for people who find themselves unemployed with a MORTGAGE and go from there.

Its this kind of pitting people against one another that has us in the state we are in tbh.
If there is soooooo much money to be had at claiming from the state, why isnt everyone packing up their jobs to do so?
Because its utter rubbish and hyperbole and quite frankly life trolling.

hatrickpatrick · 14-01-2015 3:23am

COYVB wrote: »

You honestly reckon people would turn to crime instead of taking the pill?

If there was a male version of the pill and it f*cked up body chemistry as much as the female version, I sure as hell would.

pragmatic1 · 14-01-2015 3:24am

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

Perhaps all women should be issued with chastity belts and the keys be held by the state until they have a good education and a permanent job they can't be sacked from. (The PS comes to mind)

No, but how about people pay their way and take responsibility for their own welfare. Not exactly controversial.

Smidge · 14-01-2015 3:24am

TheSheriff wrote: »

Havent read the whole thread, I am sure there are some very valid arguments in it.

Just wanted to contribute to the "its a good idea" team.

I think it is a brilliant idea. I know of several women living in North Cork who have had children with the sole aim of going on benefits.

Sickening bunch. We need progressive moves like this in Ireland.

Several women?

In the WHOLE of North Cork?????

Couldn't be as many as that, surely? :rolleyes:

ceadaoin. · 14-01-2015 3:25am

CarpeDiem85 wrote: »

^How is it? She eats everything I eat, I buy her clothes on sale, she's out of nappies now, I don't spoil her with expensive toys and holidays etc. I look after her myself so no creche fees. Bringing up children doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg.

Sorry that's still hard to believe. Birthday and Christmas presents? Days out? Activities? Family meals out? Doctors visits? Surely even her share of the food eaten from the grocery shop would be more than €1000 over a year.

Photo-Sniper · 14-01-2015 3:29am

Thread reminds me of some rte tv show where some fella was screaming and roaring that the ''gubbermint " wouldn't give him and his family a bigger house. I'm sure he had 7 or 8 kids.

macyard · 14-01-2015 3:36am

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

If there was a male version of the pill and it f*cked up body chemistry as much as the female version, I sure as hell would.

The copper coil does not mess with hormones, the new male injection will have the same effect as that once it comes in, both are long lasting and reversible so if you get a job it can be undone.

Copper coil is available now for women

Rosy Posy · 14-01-2015 3:44am

macyard wrote: »

The copper coil does not mess with hormones, the new male injection will have the same effect as that once it comes in, both are long lasting and reversible so if you get a job it can be undone.

Copper coil is available now for women

Copper coil is by no means the magic side-effect free contraceptive that some would have you believe. I had to have mine removed after it gave me two periods a month, debilitating cramps and migraines. I've known a few friends who've had these symptoms.

Fwiw I think this initiative is moronic- way to further dehumanise welfare recipients. I think that free contraception should be available as a choice rather than a condition.

Smidge · 14-01-2015 3:47am

[QUOTE=was.deevey;93825539]I'd probably agree that there should be a minimum threshold of income prior to having kids - why on earth would you want kids if you cant (on your own dime) put food on the table ?

And many couples do

The ugly truth.[/QUOTE]

Oh god bwahaha

Do you get how idiotic, not to mention dangerously close to bourgeois that comment is?
An income threshold among working class/low income earners to have a family?
Getawayouttadat

:rolleyes:

99% of the people I grew up with and family/friends etc all had parents scrapping by(it was the 70's/80's).
Pittance incomes for them and generations before them.
Should they not have had families?

Actually, I have changed my mind....that comment lies firmly in bourgeois territory.

Smidge · 14-01-2015 3:51am

Photo-Sniper wrote: »

Thread reminds me of some rte tv show where some fella was screaming and roaring that the ''gubbermint " wouldn't give him and his family a bigger house. I'm sure he had 7 or 8 kids.

I saw a similar one on RTE except it was a primary school teacher and her farmer husband with SIX children giving out about his cuts in subsidies and her state paid wage.

pragmatic1 · 14-01-2015 3:56am

Smidge wrote: »

Oh god bwahaha
Do you get how idiotic, not to mention dangerously close to bourgeois that comment is?
An income threshold among working class/low income earners to have a family?
Getawayouttadat :rolleyes:

99% of the people I grew up with and family/friends etc all had parents scrapping by(it was the 70's/80's).
Pittance incomes for them and generations before them.
Should they not have had families?

Actually, I have changed my mind....that comment lies firmly in bourgeois territory.

THB it's a bit selfish to intentionally bring children into the world in a situation where the family is going to be struggling financially. In cases where there's a change in circumstances or a pregnancy is unplanned, that's a completely different story, everyone needs help from time to time.

Peter Anthony · 14-01-2015 3:57am

How about a bonus of €100 for every kid you make. It could be like a game, with the top players getting a big cash prize and the results being announced on RTE every week. We could regrow the population to what it was pre Famine. Everyone would be encouraged to have more sex and be in better moods. Crime levels would probably go down.

Could even let prisoners in on the act. Let the well behaved male prisoners mate with the female prisoners, consenually obviously. This in turn could bring in millions of revenue in sex tourism, the biggest growning section of the tourist industry. I dont see any issues arising. This country needs to get into this century and be more progressive.

Smidge · 14-01-2015 4:01am

macyard wrote: »

The copper coil does not mess with hormones, the new male injection will have the same effect as that once it comes in, both are long lasting and reversible so if you get a job it can be undone.

Copper coil is available now for women

An IUD stops sperm from reaching the egg. It does this by releasing copper into the body, which changes the make-up of the fluids in the womb and fallopian tubes. These changes prevent sperm from fertilising eggs. IUDs may also stop fertilised eggs from travelling along the fallopian tubes and implanting in the womb.

Hmmm, copper.
Released into the body so much so that it changes the bodies natural functions.

Sounds perfectly normal and healthy :pac:

Smidge · 14-01-2015 4:07am

pragmatic1 wrote: »

THB it's a bit selfish to intentionally bring children into the world in a situation where the family is going to be struggling financially. In cases where there's a change in circumstances or a pregnancy is unplanned, that's a completely different story, everyone needs help from time to time.

IDK how old you are, but this has been happening..well...forever.
UNTIL this generation.
No-one I knew had wealthy or at best comfortable parents, yet they all had kids.

This generation seems to think that money is the key to everything.
Social status etc and now having kids ffs.
Its slightly OT but that comment made me laugh with its half baked notions.

In an ideal world, we would all be "comfortable" when having children but having said that my folks income was very modest to say the least(as was most peoples at the time).
I like to think Im the better for it

pragmatic1 · 14-01-2015 4:38am

Smidge wrote: »

IDK how old you are, but this has been happening..well...forever.
UNTIL this generation.
No-one I knew had wealthy or at best comfortable parents, yet they all had kids.

This generation seems to think that money is the key to everything.
Social status etc and now having kids ffs.
Its slightly OT but that comment made me laugh with its half baked notions.

In an ideal world, we would all be "comfortable" when having children but having said that my folks income was very modest to say the least(as was most peoples at the time).
I like to think Im the better for it

I never said that one should be wealthy prior to bringing children into the world. However, having a child is a pretty big decision. Taking ones financial situation into consideration beforehand would be pretty standard I would have thought.

I'm struggling to see what your point is.

JupiterKid · 14-01-2015 4:52am

Typical Australian ignorance bordering on Nazi attitudes. It really is a vile country populated by ignorant bigots.

They should get their own house in order given the way they've treated the Aboriginal people.

mrsbyrne · 14-01-2015 8:36am

Dog of Tears wrote: »

The ability to reproduce should be strictly controlled and regulated by the State.

As a minimum, prospective parents should be required to undertake IQ tests and demonstrate minimum income levels prior to being allowed to have children.

Failure to comply with these requirements should result in heft fines and/or imprisonment for both partners and forced abortion of the foetus.

Insane post.

Gatling · 14-01-2015 9:05am

Smidge wrote: »

A family of 2+2 gets 19,354.80.
Very disingenuous to give the figure of €32,000 as not everyone gets RA.

Go back and use the figure of €19,354.80 for people who find themselves unemployed with a MORTGAGE and go from there.

Its this kind of pitting people against one another that has us in the state we are in tbh.
If there is soooooo much money to be had at claiming from the state, why isnt everyone packing up their jobs to do so?
Because its utter rubbish and hyperbole and quite frankly life trolling.

€19,354 + €8-10 k average rent supplement still gives yo nearly €30,000 +

And that's before your and child benefit or medical card costs

If your that desperate to call that trolling maybe you need to toughen up a little because the truth hurts ,

Streetwalker · 14-01-2015 9:36am

myshirt wrote: »

Truly and genuinely... what the flying f#ck... is this thread a joke? Surely the bulk of you cannot be serious...

It looks like they are serious im afraid.

Streetwalker · 14-01-2015 9:37am

Dog of Tears wrote: »

The ability to reproduce should be strictly controlled and regulated by the State.

As a minimum, prospective parents should be required to undertake IQ tests and demonstrate minimum income levels prior to being allowed to have children.

Failure to comply with these requirements should result in heft fines and/or imprisonment for both partners and forced abortion of the foetus.

Heil Hitler.

eviltwin · 14-01-2015 10:14am

Terrible idea. Forcing someone to take medication against their will is not a world I want to live in.

And as for the forced abortion idea..... :rolleyes:

I don't agree with SW as a lifestyle choice but if you don't provide it the children suffer, they are the innocent ones.

I'd prefer to see some positive encouragement. Maybe have a basic SW limit and give additional monies to those who take up training/college etc. If we could provide proper childcare it would help a lot of those parents on the dole/single mums get back into education and work. Full time childcare is more than the cost of an average mortgage each month so how the hell do you expect someone on welfare to cover it when couples where both work struggle?

The problem with welfare is that is often is a trap, people can't get out of it and its those with young kids who are hit the hardest.

2 stroke · 14-01-2015 11:43am

Instead of handing out cash, I'd like to see the government here hand out vouchers for Irish made goods.
Money has to go around to end up in workers pockets, even if that means handing it to non workers. But if it's not spent in this country, it has to be borrowed.

DarkJager · 14-01-2015 11:47am

This is a great idea, especially for the long term dole spongers who have no intention of actually working to earn a wage. I'd also add a cap on child benefit to this (again for the long terms). You get child benefit for the first child you have, then you are excluded from receiving any additional child benefit for 5 years. This would very quickly put a stop to those who view repeated pregnancy as a cash cow to be milked.

ceadaoin. · 14-01-2015 9:11pm

DarkJager wrote: »

This is a great idea, especially for the long term dole spongers who have no intention of actually working to earn a wage. I'd also add a cap on child benefit to this (again for the long terms). You get child benefit for the first child you have, then you are excluded from receiving any additional child benefit for 5 years. This would very quickly put a stop to those who view repeated pregnancy as a cash cow to be milked.

All that would do is further deprive children who are already pretty deprived. It's not like child benefit covers the cost of raising a kid anyway.

Do you really think that there are many (any?) women out there who repeatedly get pregnant simply so they can claim child benefit? Do you have any examples of this because I really think these people don't exist.

UCDVet · 14-01-2015 9:15pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole point of the child benefit to.....benefit *the child*?

It's well and good to say, 'Hey - we paid for your first kid, and you had another, you are on your own.'

But what does that mean for the two children? In 15 years - what kind of young adults do you imagine those children will grow into? Do you think you'd want them to move in next door to you?

macyard · 14-01-2015 9:21pm

UCDVet wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole point of the child benefit to.....benefit *the child*?

It's well and good to say, 'Hey - we paid for your first kid, and you had another, you are on your own.'

But what does that mean for the two children? In 15 years - what kind of young adults do you imagine those children will grow into? Do you think you'd want them to move in next door to you?

The parents not the money is whst shapes them, more then likely if the parents are on the dole all their life no matter how much the gov gives them you won't want to live beside them.

Maybe the english system of removing the kids at birth from the worst ones might work best

mrsbyrne · 14-01-2015 10:57pm

Gatling wrote: »

€19,354 + €8-10 k average rent supplement still gives yo nearly €30,000 +

And that's before your and child benefit or medical card costs

If your that desperate to call that trolling maybe you need to toughen up a little because the truth hurts ,

Are you honestly saying that you believe that mortgage holders and local authority tenants get rent supplement!?!?!?

Gatling · 14-01-2015 11:10pm

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Are you honestly saying that you believe that mortgage holders and local authority tenants get rent supplement!?!?!?

Where did mortgage holders come into this .

Nothing in this thread mentioned mortgages and social housing tenancies

pharmaton · 15-01-2015 12:25am

I think we should just get rid of women. /all the problems.

darkpagandeath · 15-01-2015 12:43am

COYVB wrote: »

You honestly reckon people would turn to crime instead of taking the pill?

No, The side effect of no money will lead people to crime. People will not go without food for long without turning to crime. So what would you do ? under 10k to give them the dole or what upwards of 60k to have them in prison well prob more with legal costs and so on. It's idiotic to think give them vouchers or this or that will not lead to massive amounts of crime.

mrsbyrne · 15-01-2015 12:50am

Gatling wrote: »

Where did mortgage holders come into this .

Nothing in this thread mentioned mortgages and social housing tenancies

Your claiming everyone on JSA gets an average €10000 rent allowance. Or are you claiming everyone on JSA. Is in private rented accommodation. Either way according to you all families on the dole are on €30000+
Your 100% wrong

macyard · 15-01-2015 12:58am

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Your claiming everyone on JSA gets an average €10000 rent allowance. Or are you claiming everyone on JSA. Is in private rented accommodation. Either way according to you all families on the dole are on €30000+
Your 100% wrong

I am on the dole, applied to convert my mortage to rent scheme by the council, once it goes through next month I will not have to pay my mortage anymore or rent and have a 4 bed house as a person with no kids. If I did not have the mortage I would be getting rent allowance or have a council flat, guess the mortage worked out good in the end as I would never get a 4 bed with garden in a nice area if I applied without the mortage to rent scheme. They will cover the last 4 years of mortage arrears also.

Gatling · 15-01-2015 1:01am

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Your claiming everyone on JSA gets an average €10000 rent allowance. Or are you claiming everyone on JSA. Is in private rented accommodation. Either way according to you all families on the dole are on €30000+
Your 100% wrong

That's just for 2 adults and 2 kids
rent supplement is €8160 for Dublin

Show me where I'm wrong
And I'm pretty sure I said 8-10 on rent supplement .
And we all know more kids equates to higher payments including rent supplement.

And I don't make claims I back up my statements with the figures

Kevin McCloud · 15-01-2015 3:53am

No contraception is 100% effective.

evo2000 · 15-01-2015 3:57am

"AFRICA NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE CHILDREN TILL IT SORTS OUT ITS FOOD SHORTAGES"

AngryHippie · 15-01-2015 4:28am

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

The mindset of who is responsible for the children has to change.

Agreed, but what is happening is that they are being made the state's responsibility (Having to provide for them)

Is the state not allowed to change it's mind ?

We aren't talking about the working voting majority causing the issue here. It is a very select sliver of society who are actually milking the system. Don't get me wrong, single mothers need support, and for the most part they are fully deserving of it, but when a conscious decision can be made to live this way, then the government has a responsibility to its voters to take some sort of steps to prevent it.

I'm not certain that forced contraception is the answer, perhaps not acutally handing over cash and giving personal issued food stamps instead is a solution that may help cut down on substance abuse. A bonus system for those that quit smoking, and an incentive system for those that do use contraception might be steps in the right direction.

Tarzana2 · 15-01-2015 5:14am

Dog of Tears wrote: »

The ability to reproduce should be strictly controlled and regulated by the State.

As a minimum, prospective parents should be required to undertake IQ tests and demonstrate minimum income levels prior to being allowed to have children.

Failure to comply with these requirements should result in heft fines and/or imprisonment for both partners and forced abortion of the foetus.

Oh hai, Eugenics Bill!

Kevin McCloud · 15-01-2015 5:20am

Dog of Tears wrote: »

The ability to reproduce should be strictly controlled and regulated by the State.

One leg on the floor like snooker should be mandatory.

No contraception, no dole

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