No contraception, no dole

CarpeDiem85

^My point was that no one in this state was brought up 100% solely on their parents earnings, they received contributions from the State. I don't know any parents that don't accept Child Benefit and are thankful to get it. I still regard it as a State Payment.

was.deevey

Calina wrote: »

In general, state sanctioning or people to take a pharmaceutical product as part of an economic policy is a fascist approach and in this case, a gender discriminatory policy given it only impacts women.

There are health risks associated with forced medication and there are health risks associated with any hormonal treatment. I find it fascinating sometimes that it's usually men go on about all women being able to take the pill. It is contraindicated in some cases. So a blanket regulation of this nature would be an extremely stupid path to follow.

In any case, I doubt very much whether the vast majority of welfare recipients are really milking the system to any massive extent. Given the difference in unemployment now compared to 10 years ago, it is clear the desire is to work rather than layabout. Again, punishing the many for the sins of view is...rather dictatorial in my view.

Contraception, for the most part, is a prescription medication. This means you get it in consultation with a medical professional only. For those of you who are yammering on about what a great idea this is, it would be interesting to know how many of you are actually experts in medicine. My suspicion is not many. I'm not myself, but then, I'm not arguing in favour of a very stupid idea either.

In that case just let the couple decide on their choice of contraception they wish to use (if any).

The parents of any children conceived whilst on the Dole will not be entitled to additional social welfare payments based on their choice to have a baby.

If they can prove that substantial methods were taken to avoid that pregnancy e.g. failed state issued Implant / IUD etc ...claims could then be contested.

Would that be better ?

darkpagandeath

was.deevey wrote: »

In that case just let the couple decide on their choice of contraception they wish to use (if any).

The parents of any children conceived whilst on the Dole will not be entitled to additional social welfare payments based on their choice to have a baby.

If they can prove that substantial methods were taken to avoid that pregnancy e.g. failed state issued Implant / IUD etc ...claims could then be contested.

Would that be better ?

You do know the amount you get for a child is a pittance right ? you don't get 188 per child. Would you take the Child benefit off everyone to make it even ? A lot of the allowances people in work can also claim.

was.deevey

CarpeDiem85 wrote: »

^My point was that no one in this state was brought up 100% solely on their parents earnings, they received contributions from the State. I don't know any parents that don't accept Child Benefit and are thankful to get it. I still regard it as a State Payment.

And I would not take that away from the current taxpayers, just make it a N/A to those who choose to have kids while receiving the dole as their income source.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You do know the amount you get for a child is a pittance right ? you don't get 188 per child. Would you take the Child benefit off everyone to make it even ? A lot of the allowances people in work can also claim.

They are already paying taxes.

darkpagandeath

was.deevey wrote: »

And I would not take that away from the current taxpayers, just make it a N/A to those who choose to have kids while receiving the dole as their income source.



They are already paying taxes.

And what happens when these people turn to crime to support their lifestyle ?

Don't people on the dole pay vat and all that ? or are they exempt ?

was.deevey

And what happens when these people turn to crime to support their lifestyle ?

Do people not on social welfare turn to a life of crime when there is an unexpected baby on the way ? Not generally, they accept it and try to make ends meet somehow.

Don't people on the dole pay vat and all that ? or are they exempt ?

Not PRSI as far as I know (maybe wrong)? In light of that, certain changes would need to be made.

However, you do realize the likes of VAT goes to many other things other than social welfare like - roads, education, healthcare etc.. as well right ? And if there was less of a strain on the system those would also improve.

Solutions are only born out of a multitude of ideas from all sides of the table - whats yours ?

CarpeDiem85

^As I already stated on this thread a few times, please please look up the cuts that have been made to the OPFA in Budget '14. There have been huge cuts bringing the allowance for one child down from age 18 to age 7. There have already been huge changes. Having a child isn't a lifestyle choice now as by law parents are responsible for their children until they are adults. How you could bring up a child on so little isn't something I'd do by choice and will deter this.

Calina

was.deevey wrote: »

In that case just let the couple decide on their choice of contraception they wish to use (if any).

The parents of any children conceived whilst on the Dole will not be entitled to additional social welfare payments based on their choice to have a baby.

If they can prove that substantial methods were taken to avoid that pregnancy e.g. failed state issued Implant / IUD etc ...claims could then be contested.

Would that be better ?

No.

a) administering a system of measuring what contraception everyone concerned is using would probably cost more than support benefit does. I'd also like to know whether your suggstion

b) your suggestion involves punishing children for their parents' failings.

c) as I understood it, the issue wasn't "couples" but "women claiming single parent benefit".

The best methods - and already proven in this country and a bunch of others - of reducing the number of early pregnancies include education and education support.

No one has provided statistics proving that feckless procreation of this nature takes a monumental amount of the social welfare budget. This is because it doesn't. We also have proof from the way figures have gone over the past 10 years or so that people tend to prefer to work. SO a lot of of the welfare recipients in this country actually used to pay into the system. The majority have not been coining it on welfare all their adult life.

A programme of forced medication like this is not the behaviour of a mature state.

Gatling

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You do know the amount you get for a child is a pittance right ? you don't get 188 per child. Would you take the Child benefit off everyone to make it even ? A lot of the allowances people in work can also claim.

No but when you combine 188 x2 in a lot of cases
Qualified children payment
Rent supplement
Medical card

Some are literally earning 30+k pa
Not bad for doing absolutely nothing

A welfare supported family of 2 adults and 2 kids receive €32,000 per annum included rent supplement that doesn't include child benefit and Medical card

DeJa VooDoo

VinLieger wrote: »

You can have as many kids as you want just make sure you are able to support them with your own income and are not relying on the state to do it for you.

If that's what you really want then will you hand back your children's allowance and start paying for their schooling etc etc etc....?
Should your parents pay back all the money the state gave them while they were bringing you up?

I mean, where does this line of thinking begin and end?

Should people in rented council houses be made pay the market rent for the house we provide them with or must the taxpayer continue subsidising them?
Should they pay the LPT?

Should our glorious public sector workers have their wages 'benchmarked' to the new reality of Ireland in 2015 or must we in the private sector continue to pay for them to be paid over the odds?

It's a bit off topic I know, but the money all comes from the one pot at the end of the day.

darkpagandeath

Gatling wrote: »

No but when you combine 188 x2 in a lot of cases
Qualified children payment
Rent supplement
Medical card

Some are literally earning 30+k pa
Not bad for doing absolutely nothing

I'm sure you have a breakdown over the money paid to people who are getting 30k pa on the dole. Medical card is always a red herring, it does not cost money when not used. And rent supplement is hard to get and even harder to get a place that will have rent that low.

Gatling

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I'm sure you have a breakdown over the money paid to people who are getting 30k pa on the dole. Medical card is always a red herring, it does not cost money when not used. And rent supplement is hard to get and even harder to get a place that will have rent that low.

This is just for a family of 2 adults and 2 kids

€32,000 per year not including child benefit and Medical cards .
The medical card in your mind doesn't cost anything but the services used do this includes gp and hospital visits

darkpagandeath

Gatling wrote: »

This is just for a family of 2 adults and 2 kids

€32,000 per year not including child benefit and Medical cards .
The medical card in your mind doesn't cost anything but the services used do this includes gp and hospital visits

Do you go the Gp or hospital when not sick ?

wexandproud

CarpeDiem85 wrote: »

^My point was that no one in this state was brought up 100% solely on their parents earnings, they received contributions from the State. I don't know any parents that don't accept Child Benefit and are thankful to get it. I still regard it as a State Payment.

on one point you are correct , nobody has brought up kids 100% on their own earnings. That is everybody family gets childrens allowance.

on you second point I know lots of people who were never even offered extra benefit when more kids appeared on scene ie those working

Gatling

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Do you go the Gp or hospital when not sick ?

A bit of a roundabout

Ask a question

Get an answer

Let's go around again with an excuse

was.deevey

Calina wrote: »

a) administering a system of measuring what contraception everyone concerned is using would probably cost more than support benefit does.

Theres no measuring, you have a baby or you don't. The only issue that would arise is if there was a dispute over a failing implant or device and they would be covered under the existing medical card.

Calina wrote: »

b) your suggestion involves punishing children for their parents' failings.

We are all punished for our parents financial failings, however if there is a capacity to "fail more" it becomes far less attractive to arrive at that situation in the first place and therefore you get careful or screwed (twice).

Calina wrote: »

c) as I understood it, the issue wasn't "couples" but "women claiming single parent benefit".

When I last checked it takes 2 people to make a baby, even if it just takes one night and they are both technically single at the time.
[/quote]

Gerry T

If your on the dole, and chose to have a baby why should the state give you any more money ? surely having a child is a big decision and being able to buy the kid food, clothes, school books etc is your responsibility, no one else should have to fit that bill.
Would it not be better to say if your unlucky to find yourself unemployed that at that point if you have 3 kids or 1 kid and 1 on the way then your dole is based on that, but if you have more while still on the dole there really is no reason why the state should pay any extra.

Calina

was.deevey wrote: »

Theres no measuring, you have a baby or you don't. The only issue that would arise is if there was a dispute over a failing implant or device and they would be covered under the existing medical card.

Forgive me, I assumed that when you suggested a couple could choose whatever contraception they liked, you meant they could choose whatever method of contraception they liked, and not only from the subset of chemical contraception, responsibility for which falls on women.

Obviously I was wrong because you didn't include condoms or the rhythm method in the list of approved methods of contraception.

You have not addressed the inherent gender injustice of forcing women to take medicine when men are not forced to take medicine when they are on the dole. Nor have you addressed the idea that in fact, state sanctioned forced medication is not the hallmark of a mature society.

Secondly, none of the hormonal, chemical forms of contraception are infallible.

There are all sorts of ethical and practical problems with this idea, not to mention the medical issues which I have already highlighted with hormonal based contraceptions.

Seriously, this is a beyond stupid idea.

Calina

Gerry T wrote: »

If your on the dole, and chose to have a baby why should the state give you any more money ? surely having a child is a big decision and being able to buy the kid food, clothes, school books etc is your responsibility, no one else should have to fit that bill.
Would it not be better to say if your unlucky to find yourself unemployed that at that point if you have 3 kids or 1 kid and 1 on the way then your dole is based on that, but if you have more while still on the dole there really is no reason why the state should pay any extra.

Pregnancy is not always a choice and in this country, getting out of being pregnant is very hard.

Gerry T

Calina wrote: »

Pregnancy is not always a choice and in this country, getting out of being pregnant is very hard.

I know and mistakes do happen. But the system is being abused. So if your single and that happens then you should be looking to family / friends for help, not the state. If all you got on the dole was enough to support one person then people would be far more careful, less mistakes.

It sounds harsh I know, but forced contraception is never going to happen and those that make a life style choice to live off the dole need to be discouraged. Then there could be more given to those that are really dependent on the dole.

Calina

Gerry T wrote: »

I know and mistakes do happen. But the system is being abused. So if your single and that happens then you should be looking to family / friends for help, not the state. If all you got on the dole was enough to support one person then people would be far more careful, less mistakes.

It sounds harsh I know, but forced contraception is never going to happen and those that make a life style choice to live off the dole need to be discouraged. Then there could be more given to those that are really dependent on the dole.

The point has been raised several times that education and education support is a far better method of reducing the risk of the poverty trap.

It's not harsh to say that forced contraception is never happen. Frankly, I cannot believe anyone seriously came up with the idea in the first place and yet we are discussing it.

In the meantime, the onus on those suggesting rather draconian measures of this nature to provide data proving that this is a serious, serious problem financially. I've noted above that the change in social welfare claimant numbers over the past 10 years suggests that most people would rather work than get stuck in a poverty trap.

Flem31

There seems to be a number who agree with this idea of no contraception no dole.
And the rationale is that it would save money.

Why stop there, why not include low paid workers as part of this.
For example if the paye\prsi\USC deductions are less than your current child benefit, then contraception for you also.

If we are going to apply social reengineering, why would it just apply to people on the dole ?

Idbatterim

DeJa VooDoo, you seem a little out of touch with the sectors of society that are causing these problems.

Many areas of Dublin are teaming with feral kids and local economies pulling huge amounts from SW, and little from employment. There's a sub-culture and attitude among many of all ages towards the country and it's welfare system. It's a massive, expensive problem and it's caused by people who feel entitled to a living.

agree with everything except that its caused by people who feel entitled to a living, its caused by coward, morally corrupt politicians who will do nothing about it and bleed working parents with kids dry!

Should our glorious public sector workers have their wages 'benchmarked' to the new reality of Ireland in 2015 or must we in the private sector continue to pay for them to be paid over the odds?

fairness doesnt come into it, relection is the name of the game...

Gerry T

.

Gerry T

Calina wrote: »

The point has been raised several times that education and education support is a far better method of reducing the risk of the poverty trap.

It's not harsh to say that forced contraception is never happen. Frankly, I cannot believe anyone seriously came up with the idea in the first place and yet we are discussing it.

In the meantime, the onus on those suggesting rather draconian measures of this nature to provide data proving that this is a serious, serious problem financially. I've noted above that the change in social welfare claimant numbers over the past 10 years suggests that most people would rather work than get stuck in a poverty trap.

Pre 2008 I would have had a different view, now with the cuts, additional taxes and the struggle to keep the ship afloat it does get to me that there are still people that work the system, so let them fend for themselves would be my attitude. If they are young and healthy they can find some sort of work, or at least try.
If someone aged 8 is looking at people 20 living of the state they may decide to follow that example, remove the opportunity and now the 20 yr old will lecture the 8 yr old -- go to school, study, get a job and don't end up like me.
There will always be people that can't work, for many reasons from depression, physical disabilities, being a carer for a loved one etc... and our society needs to look after these people.
Get the free loaders out of the system, stop paying them and they will have to get jobs. too many loop holes and complicated systems, you would need to give up work to figure it all out.
Over the past 3 years where I work we have had say 2 dozen people, maybe more walk in off the street looking for work, handing out CV's. Not one of them was a native Irish person. My guess is the majority of them got jobs.

na1

Dog of Tears wrote: »

The ability to reproduce should be strictly controlled and regulated by the State.

As a minimum, prospective parents should be required to undertake IQ tests and demonstrate minimum income levels prior to being allowed to have children.

Failure to comply with these requirements should result in heft fines and/or imprisonment for both partners and forced abortion of the foetus.

Well, in reality it is actually proposed opposite: to make a Child Benefit means tested. which means literally:
-ones get paid to do the work
-others get paid to make kids

darkpagandeath

Gerry T wrote: »

Pre 2008 I would have had a different view, now with the cuts, additional taxes and the struggle to keep the ship afloat it does get to me that there are still people that work the system, so let them fend for themselves would be my attitude. If they are young and healthy they can find some sort of work, or at least try.
If someone aged 8 is looking at people 20 living of the state they may decide to follow that example, remove the opportunity and now the 20 yr old will lecture the 8 yr old -- go to school, study, get a job and don't end up like me.
There will always be people that can't work, for many reasons from depression, physical disabilities, being a carer for a loved one etc... and our society needs to look after these people.
Get the free loaders out of the system, stop paying them and they will have to get jobs. too many loop holes and complicated systems, you would need to give up work to figure it all out.
Over the past 3 years where I work we have had say 2 dozen people, maybe more walk in off the street looking for work, handing out CV's. Not one of them was a native Irish person. My guess is the majority of them got jobs.

Any fact based statistics on this or is it just my brothers cats dog knows a guy who knows a guy sure their all at it. And I bet they all get free sky hd

yipeeeee

It's called family planning and really isn't that difficult.

darkpagandeath

yipeeeee wrote: »

It's called family planning and really isn't that difficult.

Would you allow the government to tell you if you could have a child as that's basically what's being proposed. Or is this only for the lower class.

Gatling

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Would you allow the government to tell you if you could have a child as that's basically what's being proposed. Or is this only for the lower class.

How about they stop child benefit and extra payments for children ,